Halfway Up The Hill
Well, we now know the first unit coach who should be given the boot, if the following incident is true to the degree it's being reported.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle: "Raiders special teams coach Ted Daisher erupted in a sideline outburst Sunday that he later apologized for, but some of his players aren't in a forgiving mood....According to three special teams players, Daisher shoved a team intern, screamed at his assistant, yelled at players who looked at him and challenged players to fistfights during a 23-14 loss to the Houston Texans..."He was out of control," one of the players said, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal. One week ago, Raiders coach Art Shell warned the team to keep their problems in-house..."He was pushing people, yelling at people, just for staring at him. I was completely shocked. It was embarrassing. I haven't seen anything like that since junior high school."
On the one hand, we have Coach Shell, impassive to the bitter end, even when the refs are screwing us by calling a celebratory spike a forward pass. On the other hand, we have our special teams coach allegedly (thanks BlandaRocked, for reminding us that that this is alleged) going berserk and shoving interns because his unit can't stop kick returns.
On the one hand, we have Coach Shell throwing media bombs at Mike Lombardi one week ago. On the other hand, we have him warning the team a week ago to keep their problems in-house.
On the one hand, Coach Shell is preaching accountability. On the other hand, underperformers stay in the game while guys like Madsen and Morant sit idle on the sidelines, and Tom Walsh is defended to the bitter end.
In my earlier take, I said that I think our problem is more spiritual than physical. What's happening on offense and special teams has little to do with ability, in my opinion. I'm not saying we have world-class talent. But even mediocre talent can't explain what's happening. The impotence of the offense is reaching biblical proportions. Just look at Calico Jack's breakdown of our second-half scoring stats.
The spiritual component of our problem may very well lie in the types of inconsistencies, and potential double standards, cited above. Nothing will kill an organization faster than a sense that the leadership is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."
Art Shell has made an admirable effort to set the tone for this team. Back in training camp, he said that you can't have the inmates running the asylum, which has indeed been a problem for the Raiders.
I would say that he's halfway there. Just look at the defense. The question now is, will he continue to roll this big rock up the hill, and over the crest toward glory? Or will the rock roll back down before he's reached the top, taking him out on its way down?
The answer likely lies in Coach Shell's efficiency in eliminating the contradictions and inconsistencies that still plague our leadership and locker room, and eliminating the persons and personalities who refuse to play by Shell's new rules, no matter what dollar figure is attached to their contract.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle: "Raiders special teams coach Ted Daisher erupted in a sideline outburst Sunday that he later apologized for, but some of his players aren't in a forgiving mood....According to three special teams players, Daisher shoved a team intern, screamed at his assistant, yelled at players who looked at him and challenged players to fistfights during a 23-14 loss to the Houston Texans..."He was out of control," one of the players said, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal. One week ago, Raiders coach Art Shell warned the team to keep their problems in-house..."He was pushing people, yelling at people, just for staring at him. I was completely shocked. It was embarrassing. I haven't seen anything like that since junior high school."
On the one hand, we have Coach Shell, impassive to the bitter end, even when the refs are screwing us by calling a celebratory spike a forward pass. On the other hand, we have our special teams coach allegedly (thanks BlandaRocked, for reminding us that that this is alleged) going berserk and shoving interns because his unit can't stop kick returns.
On the one hand, we have Coach Shell throwing media bombs at Mike Lombardi one week ago. On the other hand, we have him warning the team a week ago to keep their problems in-house.
On the one hand, Coach Shell is preaching accountability. On the other hand, underperformers stay in the game while guys like Madsen and Morant sit idle on the sidelines, and Tom Walsh is defended to the bitter end.
In my earlier take, I said that I think our problem is more spiritual than physical. What's happening on offense and special teams has little to do with ability, in my opinion. I'm not saying we have world-class talent. But even mediocre talent can't explain what's happening. The impotence of the offense is reaching biblical proportions. Just look at Calico Jack's breakdown of our second-half scoring stats.
The spiritual component of our problem may very well lie in the types of inconsistencies, and potential double standards, cited above. Nothing will kill an organization faster than a sense that the leadership is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."
Art Shell has made an admirable effort to set the tone for this team. Back in training camp, he said that you can't have the inmates running the asylum, which has indeed been a problem for the Raiders.
I would say that he's halfway there. Just look at the defense. The question now is, will he continue to roll this big rock up the hill, and over the crest toward glory? Or will the rock roll back down before he's reached the top, taking him out on its way down?
The answer likely lies in Coach Shell's efficiency in eliminating the contradictions and inconsistencies that still plague our leadership and locker room, and eliminating the persons and personalities who refuse to play by Shell's new rules, no matter what dollar figure is attached to their contract.
posted by Raider Take at 6:37 AM
49 Comments:
damn dude,the answer is staring you in the face but you STILL refuse to put the blame where it belongs.... you point out all art's inconsistencies yet you say that he is half way there to ridding the team of it?????? that makes NO SENSE. art is the leader of inconsistent and the team plays like his lack of ability. he also says about his assistant that he can blow up but not to degrade a player,that is crossing the line....all you have to do is look at how he has treated porter,under his own definition,he is crossing the line in how he has handled porter...he is a big problem with players not playing up to potential...you also forgot to put in the quote of the player that was asked by the reporter if art had done anything to fix the special teams assistant and the player said" of course not,he is art's boy"....case and point. art is as inconsistent as anyone involved with this team,tell me, how are players sup[posed to respect that??? why would any player play for a HC that talks such garble and doesn't follow it up with his own actions...art is not a HC and he needs to step down for the betterment of the organization.
Good points. But would you not say that half of this team, the defense, is right on track, and much improved from last year? Does Shell get all of the blame for the things that have gone wrong, but none of the credit for the things that have gone right?
We are literally 10 or 14 points per game from a .500 or better record. I say give Shell another year to cut out the spiritual deadwood that is holding us back on offense. He was hired late and inherited these players, and he deserves the opportunity to make them walk the plank in the offseason.
I'm not giving Shell a pass, just read my take. But I am willing to give him the time and opportunity to fix what is broken.
I am really torn. On the one hand I am in favor of giving Shell another chance. Yet he has royally screwed up many situations, Porter, Gabriel, Walsh, Lombardi. And while we can't have our coaches behaving like children, some emotion would be nice. Lord knows I am screaming, cursing and throwing things in my living room. I guess I would bring Shell back unless we give the job to Ryan. I cannot believe the way our D continues to compete while we are so far from contention.
I think it's unfair to fire any new NFL head coach after one year unless they display blatent incompetence. That's because there's usually too much change involved for a team to adapt to over a 16-game schedule. Art's had some rough going so far, but he's not incompetent. That, and the fact that he's HOF, Raider legend & former head coach Art Shell, I see Al extending him even more leeway.
If Art's going to lose the job in the offseason, it would more than likely be to him resigning than Al firing him.
RT:
Caution! First, note that this report comes from only one news outlet. And we didn't even get word of it until a couple of days after the fact. This is not to say that the incident didn't occur, but it may not be as dire as reported.
Don't forget the media propensity for piling on when it comes to the Raiders. Every chink, every drop of blood in the water, and the media will swarm like pirana. Raider haters will try to declare the Raiders officially dead and attempt to nail the lid shut. Others will look for any sign of weakness as another sign of the Raider Nation collapse.
It is critical in this season for reasoning minds to prevail. I think the answers for the questions that have arrisen this year will become clear in the off season.
I hear you, BlandaRocked, but the story was confirmed by three separate players. Yes, the story might be hyped, but if the guy is apologizing, then we know that something bad went down.
I said he should get the boot IF the incident is true to the degree it has been reported. He shouldn't just get the boot for shoving interns, etc., but also for the awful special teams play that is transpiring under his watch.
My take isn't just about this incident, either. It's about a larger discussion of how and why our offense and special teams have become BIBLICALLY incompetent. Yes, the players are largely responsible for this fact. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold the leadership accountable for setting consistent parameters that are vital to restoring order to the team.
Al and the rest of the organization would be foolish to let Shell go after one year. Yes, our offense stinks, but our defense is playoff-caliber. I would go even a bit farther than RT in saying that we were just a handful of plays away from perhaps 4 more wins. Not saying that we're a great team by any stretch, but our record is really not indicative of our talent and effort.
Besides, if Shell gets fired, who would we get to replace him? Look how long it took us to come up with our (supposedly) second choice in Shell this year. Would any "up-and-coming" assistant really want this job seeing how we burn through coaches on a almost yearly basis? Any no-name isn't going to want this job for a sub-par paycheck and an essentially 1-year deal.
Having been a season ticket holder since they returned to Oakland, one thing I don't see from this team is any quit in them. Unlike the 4-12 Joe Bugel year, where it was obvious by the 10th game that the team gave up, this team has heart and fights to the very end (with the exception of Moss, of course). I plant that firmly on Shell instilling discipline and pride in the organization.
We need to take the strength of this team, our defense, get rid of the termites infesting our offense (Moss, Porter, et al) and find character players that work hard and don't complain. Call me an optimist, but I sense good things from this team next season -- we just need a couple more parts to the machine.
Who are you saying should be given the boot... Daisher or Shell?
I am posting the following on behalf of EKG Raider:
First off if i was the ST coach i may have acted in a similar manner,
after
watching their performance.
Instead of running to the media perhaps they should have called their
mothers and cried to them.
Second of all Art has made a few misteps. However I get sick and tired
of
people consitently giving players a pass, people mention well why
should
they respect Art because he likes one player more than another or one
coach
more than the players. HEY WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD FOLKS!! your still
grown men paid a lot of money to play football.
You shouldn't need this perfect storm of ass kissing for you to play to
your
potential. Once your between the lines none of that should matter. My
point,
players are whiney babies for the most part and are given way to much
credit.
If they would handle their business instead of deciding who to point
fingers
at on the coaching staff when we three fumbles and two int's we might
have a
few more wins....END RANT"
Anon, I'm saying IF the incident is true to the degree it has been reported, then Daisher should get the boot.
Sorry, I will make sure to clarify that in my take.
My reasoning is that you simply can't have your coaches going mental like that, especially when it so contradicts the leadership style of Art Shell.
Following is a list of offense and special teams position coaches who, until this year, had never held their respective positions in the NFL (ie: they were either assistants, held other positions or had no prior NFL coaching experience):
Special Teams Coach
Co-Offensive Line Coaches
QB Coach
Additionally, our offensive coordinator had been out of the NFL for 10 years.
Does inexperience at the coaching level have anything to do with our offensive performance this year? Just food for thought.
RT,
I too am torn about Shell. I don't think he's in for the long haul of things as head coach, but in for the long haul in the front office somewhere.
Though he is inconsistent, my problem with him is he is the guy who demands respect from everyone; instead of earning respect by leading by example.
My problem with the players, is they try to right the wrong with another wrong. They react to him with an attitude of, "If you don't respect me, then I'm not respecting you by half-assing it on the field." 2 wrongs do not make a right.
Bottom line, I think there is a HUGE communication gap offensively and on special teams; between the Head Coach/Assistant Coaches, and the players. The one thing Art is good at, is closing the communication gap.
That is why I'm torn about Shell as Head Coach. THough he is good at closing the communication gap, in my opinion, he is part of the reason why there is a communication gap. I honestly think that he deserves no credit for the defense because Rob Ryan is still there. If Rob was let go at the beginning of the season, and the defense still performed this way; then he'd receive credit from me. I think the difference is Rob Ryan, who is in constant communication with the defensive unit. This is why players wanted Shoop as OC too. Maybe Art, and the other coaches should take note.
RE: the defense, here's a little tidbit from Bengals.com and the normally loquacious Chad Johnson.
But the Raiders simply don’t get beat deep. While the Bengals have scored on five passes of at least 40 yards in the last three games, the Raiders have allowed no touchdown passes longer than 40 all season.
“I’m thinking, ‘They must be getting toasted and getting beat a lot all over the place,' ” said wide receiver Chad Johnson, who has four of those plus-40 scores. “(But) watching the film, they’re really good. I’m surprised they don’t get the credit they should. Maybe it’s because of their record. Those boys can play.”
Johnson loves the Raiders cornerbacks, particularly second-year man Fabian Washington. He admits he hasn’t studied the safeties because Oakland plays so much man-to-man.
“Washington is good; serious,” Johnson said. “I don’t give too much credit. (But) he’s up there with Champ (Bailey). I swear. The only reason he doesn’t get the credit is because he’s in his second year and they’re not winning. He’s blanking everybody on film. The key that separates a great DB from anybody else is that some DBs play not to get beat and some DBs play to make a play. Champ Bailey plays to make plays. Fabian Washington is playing to make a play.”
Two things folks seem to be forgetting.
Ryan is in his third year as DC. His first year was crap while he tried to play half the D out of position, and last year nobody could shake him away from zone defenses, although the defense play marginally better than the year before. This year he's playing a lot more man, and a lot more agressive. He's also got some personnel that he didn't have before. I think Shell deserves some credit here.
Special Teams haven't been playing poorly all season long. Earlier in the season we all identified it as one of the bright spots. It's only over the last few games that it has shown some holes. I suspect that is caused more by lost focus from a losing season than poor coaching.
RT,
I don't think the equation is, half the team(defense) is good, & the other half(offense) bad.
The equation as i see it is, if the defense were playing as bad as the offense, what would coach Shell do about it ?
Judging from how Shell has handled the Offense, i'm afraid the answer is...nothing.
It's clear that Ryan has control over the D, and the ugly problem, offense is what needed/needs fixin.
The problem early on and right up til now, is Shell has been very, very slow to mack changes.
Ok, yes, he replaced Mquistan early, but that was a small move on a unit that seemed to need big moves.
Only recently did Shell finally wake up to bench Courney Nohandserson, and put in Madsen. Walter replaced Albert Brooks, but only because of injury.
To this day, Whitted remains a starter, and young guys cannot sniff any serious playing time.
Shell, it would appear, was satisfied to just keep rolling out this garbage, and calling it offense.
Even the changing of his hand picked OC Walsh came way after every one in the world knew the man was in way over his head.
This is my great problem with Shell. If he had been coaching Dallas, odds are Bledsoe would still be in there, and Vanderjack still kicking, and the Cowladies, going nowhere.
Bottomline, Art Shell is painfully slow to make obvious changes.
I'm willing to give Shell another year. Even in this parody driven league no one, short of a genious, can turn a team around in one year. The problem is that no hot-shot-up-and-coming coach is going to take a job with the Raiders as long as Al is in charge. He simply meddles too much. It used to work in the past but not now. That's why Gruden left. He got tired of Al getting in the way. When Al is gone, great football minds will be lined up around the block to take the Raiders back to the top.
On a lighter note, I bought a complete set of 1975 Tops Raiders cards on ebay. So cool. Brought back a lot of memories.
"The Raiders opened the second half by allowing an 87-yard kick return to the Raiders' 3, setting up a game-tying touchdown. They then broke down on a 58-yard punt return that put the Texans in position for the go-ahead field goal.
The Raiders were 0-for-3 in field-goal attempts, proving the difference in the game. During this time, players said Daisher started yelling at people, including special teams assistant Lorenzo Ward."
I was yelling at them too, and so was anyone who gives a damn about how this team performs.
I woulda b!tch slapped one of 'em on the ST with a sticky paw for giving this game away were I on the sidelines, and any player on the "D" certainly woulda been justified in doing so after the way the played.
Same goes for Randal Williams. Instant Ike Turner on 'em after the second fumble.
Raider fans kill me. One week it's "Fire Art Shell because he looks so passive on the sidelines and doesn't do anything. We wish Gruden was back here playing Chucky and screaming at everyone!"
Next week it's "Fire Tom Daisher. He's on the sidelines screaming at everyone! He should leave the players alone."
Anyone notice the ST coverage teams sucked under Bob Casullo the last couple of seasons too?
The only unit that doesn't blow monkey chunks on the current team is the one with a consistent coordinator for the last three years, BTW... coincidence?
Which is it?
The players get whatever they want whenever they want... or the coaches discipline 'em for screwing up?
All we heard last season was how Mr. Nice Guy Norv couldn't motivate Woody Harrelson to smoke a spliffy. Now everyone is high on Ryan 'cause he's a motivator and is fired up.
But really, we all are satisfied with Ryan 'cause the way the "D" performs, not because he's animated and jumping around clappin' his mitts between plays.
No matter what personality the coach has, Raider fans are going to throw 'em under the bus... unless the players perform.
When's the last time THAT happened?
The truth is Art Shell inherited a f'ing mess of an organization. The truth is he was hired so late in the year that all the actual professional position coaches (including OC) were already under contract with other NFL teams.
This is why there is a staff chock full o' first time coaches. You don't think Art woulda preferred to have gotten a little earlier start on this?
While I'm not exactly sippin' the Shell Kool-Aid right now, I do believe we should give the guy a chance to clean house and play with his players on the field (as much as such is possible in Oakland) before we judge 'em. I agree with his mission, which is to take out the trash.
Garbage in. Garbage out. Get rid of Woodson, Harris, and Buchanon and look how much better the defense plays...
But the offense is full of nothing but detritus masquerading as a group of players, far as I can tell. Boot the malcontents... and I'll wager we'll see a difference there too.
Damn, Stickem, you can really stickem. I agree. The answer is one of two places.
1. Either the players are cool, but it's Art's pitiful leadership that is causing the mess this season, or
2. The mess was already under contract, and Shell came in and exposed it.
As for me, I've seen pretty much this same group come nowhere near a winning season for four years now. Shell did a good job leading the Raiders when they were down in LA. Yes there were controversies, but they were winners in all but one season. I'm banking on the answer being number 2.
Hey guys, what is it exactly in the NFL coaching resumes of Eatman, Slater, Daisher, McElwain and Walsh makes you certain they are not partly responsible for presiding over a biblically awful offense and increasingly dismal special teams? Aren't coaches supposed to find a way to get the most out of their players, no matter who they are?
By this measure, Dungy, Parcells and Belichick are just lucky guys, and position coaches and coordinators are irrelevant to the play of a team. Which we know is not the case, with exhibit A being Rob Ryan.
This offense, with largely the same players as last year and an upgrade at quarterback, has undergone a massive backslide. Yet our coaching staff gets a total pass?
As for the tenure comparison to Rob Ryan, no matter how rough his first few years, his unit never looked as inept, uninspired or chaotic as our offense looks today.
As for Daisher, I expect some level of maturity out of my coaches. I hold them to a higher standard than I hold myself in front of the TV with a beer in hand. If it's true he's shoving interns and challenging players to fights, then he has lost his credibility, and undermined the mature and measured leadership tone that Shell is trying to instill.
Hey RT,
I hate to say it but in terms of wins and losses, we're two games short of last year's tally. Statistically, it's a big drop off in terms of offensive output. However, that's not a tremendous backslide where it counts, the win-loss column.
Understood, the problem is that, the way our defense has played, that number could easily be five or six wins at this point. The reason it's not is because of the significant backslide on offense.
All I'm saying is that it's reasonable to suggest that the coaches on the offensive side of the ball deserve some (not all! don't put words in my mouth) of the blame for presiding over a unit that has become nothing short of incoherent and embarrassing.
did any of you read what sapp said about playing for the Raiders???? it wasn't very complimentary,his quotes should really be taken into account here.....he was in the locker room when Al blew up at a reporter earlier this year and he said how messed up it was.... he said he did not think the porter suspension was warranted..... his latest was how hard it was playing for this organization...you look at how the team is playing and you listen to the quotes... moss and his something fishy comment..another quote of practises being sloppy and unorganized... you then take a look at the ingame coaching... sorry,but to me that shows signs of poor coaching....yes art got a mess but a coach worth his salt would be doing a better job at this point...art's handling of porter then just recently stating how a coach shouldn't degrade a player,that it is crossing the line..then the moss quote earlier in the year about how art mess' with players manhood... there is more but i think i have made my point.....
Sorry for jumping in late. I must confess, I'm a numbers guy so I've got to take issue with BlandaRocked's statement:
"Special Teams haven't been playing poorly all season long. Earlier in the season we all identified it as one of the bright spots."
As usual the numbers don't lie. Our ST coverage units are pathetic. Besides Shane Lechler's consistent performance and Chris Carr outstanding job on kick returns, the rest of the special teams has played poorly.
KR Coverage: #32 - 29.8
PR Coverage: #29 - 13.0
Kick Returns: #4 - 25.1
Putn Returns: #31 - 6.2
Punting Net Avg: #2 - 36.7
FG Percentage: #28 - 68.4%
In 4 of the major 6 major ST categories, our units are last or near last.
The term cleaning house or taking out the garbage should include both malcontents AND the under achievers. Upgrading the talent and the coaching staff should always be under consideration.
If the Raiders were in a time crunch to fill their coaching vacancies for 06, it is understandable for mistakes to be made in the selections.
Going forward for 07, if there is a better, more experienced talent pool of coaches to upgrade the staff than it would be negligent to keep a coach who isn't cutting the mustard.
PantyRaider - I hate to rain on your conspiracy theories because I sincerely enjoy reading your posts but ... let's be objective about football/performance related issues and the role & impact of the media and fans.
Football/Performance Issues:
Under Walsh's guidance, the Raiders had the WORST offense in the NFL. His demotion was warranted. The decision was made by Al Davis and Art Shell. The media and fans had ZERO impact on this decision.
Under STC Daisher's watch, the Raiders ST units are ranked #32 in KR coverage, #29 in PR coverage, and #31 in punt returns. He should be worried about his job security.
Bottom Line: The coaches, players, staff, and even the frickin groundskeeper are all evaluated and their performace is reviewed.
Raiders 53 Man Roster:
At the end of the season, Davis/Shell will decide on the fate of each and every player. Once again, the media and fans will have no bearing on these decisions whatsoever.
Media:
The media's role in infleuncing the football related decisions of the Raiders organization is next to none. As long as Al Davis is the owner, ALL football related decisions start and end with him.
Fans:
This blog is a microcosm of the real world. You have a diverse group of individuals with different backgrounds, opinions, and levels of interest in the Raiders. From the Haters to the Diehards and everything in between, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has a mind of their own. It is called free will. If someone is so weak minded to be influenced by the "Crap", "Cancer", or "Haters" oh well...that is one less fair weather fan to worry about.
The vast majority of us truly care about the Raiders, love Raider football, and professional football in general. It is a wonderful GAME to watch and enjoy. That is why we are first and foremost fans. There is no hidden agenda or conspiracy.
Visiting & commenting on blogs, reading Raider related articles from various news sources, watching the games on t.v., going to the games etc. is for FUN. It is a leasure activity and has absolutely no bearing on decisions made by the organization whatsoever.
You say Art is halfway there "just look at the defense". Alas, Art has had no impact on the defense. All credit goes to Rob Ryan. The offense, on the other hand, is completely Art's responsibility.
I love Art from his playing days and it pains me to say this but Art is completely over his head and things will not improve until Al makes yet another head coaching change.
Calico, thanks for the numbers.
One stat that's misleading though is the FG%. Take away Janikowski's three missed FGs last week due to an injured back and he's then 13 for 16, turning that 68.4% success rate to a 81.3%. Plus, he also missed a 36-yarder the week before in SD (his only attempt that day), so you have to wonder if his back was bothering him then, too. If that's the case, his non-injury success rate would be up to 86.7%
And in addition to all that, the offense's putrid performance this year has only provided him 19 attempts all year over 13 games...less than 1.5 opportunities a game. And I'm sure I could go back and find out at least *five* of those opportunities were set up by the defense and *not* the offense. Bottom line is that each of his misses over the last two weeks drastically affected his FG% because of his lack of opportunuties to make up for them.
CJ~ "Bottom Line: The coaches, players, staff, and even the frickin groundskeeper are all evaluated and their performance is reviewed."
Well said!
'Cept we all know Run-Run is untouchable!!!
I don't mean to imply that the coaching staff is doing a marvelous job and all of them should stay around indefinitely. They should be accountable, and replaced when warrented.
My position on this is there has been a gradual slide towards bozos "performing" under every tent in the Oakland circus since Rich Gannon left. It is bigger than just Art Shell.
Everyone (players, coaches, personnel and marketing staff included) needs to be performing as if their job depended on it right now.
Shell will get some latitude for a while to make changes, and rightly so, but the time for excuses is long past when you have the worst record in the NFL over the last four seasons. Sad to say, it will take some time to clean up a disaster area of this magnitude.
Anonymous 4:55, I think Blandarocked said it best earlier when he pointed out that Rob Ryan's in his third year as DC for this team. He wasn't exactly knocking them dead in year #1. He's had three years to get in the preferred personnel and to fine tune his game plan.
You need to give Art more than one year. In the NFL you only have 16 games (barring playoffs) to see how your team performs against competition. In other sports you have 80+ games during the course of the season to evaluate how your staff performs in real competition and make adjustments accordingly from game to game. In the NFL, you get to practice for a whole week and then try to enforce that game plan on the field once. As we've seen reported from the Raiders camp...especially earlier this year...was that things being done in practice weren't being done on the playing field.
You simply need to give Art more time before you evaluate his performance.
Raider Nate 75 said:
I too am torn about Shell. I don't think he's in for the long haul of things as head coach, but in for the long haul in the front office somewhere.
Though he is inconsistent, my problem with him is he is the guy who demands respect from everyone; instead of earning respect by leading by example.
That really rings true for me. Every coach has a degree of hypocrisy. Parcells didn't treat LT like everyone else. You can bet that Gary Reasons would have been disciplined and kicked off the Giants for things that LT did on a regular basis.
Having said that, Shell has inherited one of Al's worst traits; never discipline a player when you can completely humiliate him. Then insult everyone's intelligence by not acknowledging it. Other teams would have traded Porter at the deadline. Other teams would have sent a message to Moss. We keep them around and "punish" them with no regard for team chemistry because Al thinks that "locker room stuff is overrated".
To echo Raider Nate 75's point, coaches earn respect by setting a consistent standard and by winning. Caoches have a hard time earning respect by sadistically punishing players and by extension, punishing the team when you're playing a clearly lesser talent (a la Whitted). And losing. Jutting your jaw out and commanding respect because you "bleed silver and black" just doesn't cut it.
I, like many of you, want to believe it's not too late for Shell. If Shoop is a diamond in the rough, that might be all Art needs. But from where I'm standing, it's hard to make the case that Art is fixing the poisonous atmosphere he inherited.
Here's something that I'd like the Raider Nation to consider.
For Al Davis to be responsible for everything folks say he's responsible, he would have to be somewhere near the human equivalent of a cross between Jesus and Superman. An NFL team is far more than what appears on the field. Davis has to deal with not just the players, but the janitors. He runs a vast corporation with international influence. He deals with the NFL and with the City of Oakland. He has employees from scouts, coaches, players, trainers, secretaries, phone bank, marketers, etc., etc. He's 77 years old.
What we are witnessing this season is the Raiders learning, for the first time since the early 60s, how to function without Al Davis. Internal factions are developing, just as they will in any major corporation where the CEO is getting old and tired.
Calico Jack, as a Jurist Doctor I can tell you that conspiracies do exist. Conspiracy has been a common law crime since the middle ages. All a conspiracy is is an agreement between two or more to accomplish something illegal or immoral. PantyRaider isn't talking about conspiracies as crimes, he's talking about internal coalitions developing, and those coalitions working at odds. The coalitions work at odds because they work toward their own self interest, and not the greater interest of the team.
Art Shell, it seems to me, was brought in as the ultimate team player. He is the man who would take charge, and put everybody (Quarterbacks and receptionists) on the same page. There is absolutely no doubt that Shell is going to encounter opposition from those who are trying to establish their own power in Al Davis' ultimate absence.
One of the major problems we are seeing is that Art has not been able to control as much as he's been trying to control. He was brought in very late in the off season, but I thought he did a pretty good job putting together a staff and changing the culture given what he had to work with.
I suspect that the Raiders will have the busiest off season in their history, starting in January. I would expect some Raider moves to steal focus from the Super Bowl. I would expect to see the entire offense rebuilt, and changes on the coaching staff. I also expect to see changes in the front office - perhaps some old friends returning to Raider Nation.
My plea is, and always has been, for patience. Let Art Shell play out his hand.
Dobbie,
You may be right, but how much more evaluation time is needed ?
There's 4 games left, and Shell still hasn't figured out Whitted is no starter. Why is Brooks still playing ??
How can he evaluate Morant, Madsen, Walter, and others from the bench ??
What is it about the young players on offense that the Raiders don't like ?
They play the young guys on defense, and things are going great. Why not give the offense a chace to improve.
RT -
I love the lively discussion.
33 comments! I agree with you almost all the time. Not this time. Shell has to go. The things he claimed to change he has had no effect on. There is no discipline. 4th and one and you can't get the play off in game 11. He can blame formation problems or a new OC. I don't buy it. Not after everything else I've seen. "The inmates can't run the asylum." I always found it interesting that he would charachterize the situation as asylum-like. The problem is no one seems to be running the asylum. The uneven handed treatment of players and lack of a plan for the future (youth or not on O)does not bode well for anyone to be interested in either coaching or playing here. Say what you will about chucky. Remember David Dunn? He only fumbled once and was gone. Raider00 stated it best. What would happen if the D was not playing well? What would Shell do about that. The same thing he has done all along, nothing.
Clearly, problems manifest when things are going bad, and Art will look like a hero IF he can turn this around, but he needs to be held accountable for everything he surveys. Isn’t that the job (risk) of a leader?
The case-study comparison made of Rob Ryan’s first year is incomplete. Wasn’t Ryan making adjustments on the fly, and didn’t that unit show continual, albeit gradual, progress? How is that characteristic of the offense this year? I’m sorry, I don’t see it.
This offensive unit, under the present coaching and player personnel, is stumbling into utter oblivion. As Calico Jack keeps pointing out, numbers don’t lie, particularly when we’re 12 weeks into the season and at or near the bottom in every offensive category. But don’t believe your “lying eyes.” Right!
So Art finally succumbed to the pressure and demoted Walsh (and he deserved it). He still has some house-cleaningto do, and firing or demoting other coaches should be every bit as likely as player personnel changes. Art can be successful with the right people under him, however, his selections are more critical now because the lame excuses many are using, “he inherited these coaches,” or “he was hired too late to get good coaches” are no longer valid (and we all known Art will be head coach next year).
so panty,seems to me in what you are saying is that everyone is against Al and art and want them gone.........is everybody wrong??? or is it that we can all see that this system that the Raiders operate under is causing the cancer???? if you look at what is happening,you can see plain as day that the way this team is run is NOT condusive to winning,i mean sapp is a straight up guy and i'm sure he would love to see this team win....is he wrong in his assesment??? or is it that he has been in a winning organization and can recognize that what is happening behind the scenes isn't right???? it isn't a conspiracy,it's players and fans that can see the truth and want it to change so we can have a team we can be proud of... if we were to all do what you say and just be positive and act like it will fix itself...sorry,but that doesn't solve anything,it would just continue down this path and we are all just supposed to sit here and accept it.....sorry but to me that isn't the right attitude and in order for change to happen,you have to realize the truth and face the truth,then and only then will things begin to change... blaming it on this or that is wrong,you need to blame the source and the source starts at the top,plain and simple.
no i don't think it is impatients, i think people realize that art isn't the guy that can get us there,just like we saw that norv wasn't that guy either. now i understand the " who will we get instead of art",that is a valid argument...thing is we ALL WANT TO WIN and we have different visions of what that is,you feel that art is answer and if we keep him we will win eventually...others see art in a different vision...so it comes down to " do we stick with art because we can't get anyone else??" do we go for a higher level at HC...or do we stand pat and go through,imo, another train wreck of a season??? i think fans have had enough of a dysfunctional organization and putting a fragmented product on the field...art has contributed to the fragmentation with his inconsitencies and poor gameday decisions. the fans see it,you know the players see it and it is not conducive to winning.... do we stay this course???? or do we recognize it,identify it and try to change it???? to me the last statement makes the most sense and i am willing to speak up and offend some to get my point out there.... to me this is part of a solution to fix what is broken.... it all comes down to who is behind the moves that are setting this team back. to me art is not a quality nfl HC,his handling of the team and gameday coaching and the almost overall displeasure with the players on how the team is going,shows me that this direction won't work.
PantyRaider,
I wish you would say who you think the "cancer" is on the Raiders.
Is it Moss, Porter, or Lombardi ?
Is it all of them ? Someone else ?
Who ?????????
Anyway I agree that we can't keep firing coaches every year. Especially when you consider that the Raiders will never hire a big time guy, but rather a retread, or a young, unproven, unknown, looking for a chance.
I too agree that you can't keep firing coaches every year, with this caveat; the time to fire a coach is the second you realize that he's not the guy who will accomplish what you need accomplished. If Art is not the guy, keeping him around one more year for "consistency" is a poor decision and will only set the team back further.
When he was hired, people erroneously reported that he has a long term contract. Now it's been widely reported that he has a two year deal. It's possible that Art "took one for the team" and that this was always intended to be a one year stopgap situation. I fully expect this offseason to be extremely active for the Raiders. Maybe even tumultuous...
petrino signed a long term deal to stay in college.... panty ,i'll say it for you and then you will know where i stand on the "cancer".... it is Al Davis and his vision.. the man is WAY past his prime and it all starts there. he is the one that has produced the culture within the team that you are talking about... until HE realizes that the problem begins with him,nothing will change... let's face it,Al does call the shots and the rest follow,it is the chain of command,there is no denying that...he is the one that has to change before any of the cancer is removed,plain and simple......again,art is not capable of leading the team to greatness,forget about what he did back in '90,it is a new era,players are different,the way to handle them is different,strategys are different and more complex and imo art cannot adjust to it,he doesn't know how.....so again,do we stay this course and pray to the almighty that it works???? or do we start running the franchise like we are in 2006??? i would really like to see our franchise updated because this retro thing is just fools gold.
Bama7
I understand why so many here say you can't just let a coach go after only one year. Normally I'd agree, but Art is simply not our answer. And delaying the inevitable just sets us back further than we already are. Right now we're one dynamic OC guru away from being competitive. Think back to those early nineties and all the strife during Art's first tenure as coach. Back then, we really didn't know who was to blame. Here we sit twelve years later and it all looks so familiar. I have to belive that Art was the problem then and now. He is nothing but a sycophant to Al. A coach without ideas. A coach that retained all the leftover sycophants (Feddie B, Martin etc) and brought back, the most bizarre of Al's past boot lickers... Walsh. Art did nothing but regress and stubbornly embrace a guy that was clearly, clearly unqualified for the job (Walsh). That decision alone should cost Art his job. A colossal blunder considering we have, what looks like, a good defense and Randy Moss on offense. How can Moss all of sudden become such a lousy player when before, everyone in the league was absolutely terified of him?? Gillam ball. Shell ball. Al ball. It 's AWFUL ball. Last in just about every offensive category? Bye-bye Art.
See you Art. As I've said before, Art Shell brings absolutely nothing to the table.
Living in Alabama I find the parallels bewteen the Silver & BLack and the Crimson Tide incredibly similar. Alabama is no longer an attractive head coaching spot or national powerhouse. Why? Because they haven't been able to get away from daydreaming about the past. Everything's Bear Bryant and all the old National Championships. Has been like this for the last twenty-three years since Bear's death. They've insisted on hiring so many from the "Alabama family"... Perkins, Dubois, Stallings, Shula etc etc. Time to move on for crying out loud. And I think, finally, they are moving forward here. Many young Bama fans now don't even remember Bear Bryant.
Time to move on in Oakstown as well. Most young NFL fans have no clue who Bilitnekoff and Shell were. Moving on starts with canning the great left tackle that used to protect an old Bama QB.
Short of that, let's hope Art finds an innovative OC in the offseason and turn that person loose. I'm not holding my breath as to that.
PantyRaider, is this "cancerous" problem you describe unique to the Raiders (as a team)? Seems to me the cancer is losing football games, and nobody wants to lose.
There are two sides to every story. In a perfect world, we could subpoena Mike Lombardi, Art Shell, Jerry Porter, Al Davis, and Randy... never mind, he's said enough... and ask them under oath what the hell is going on!!!!
This way, you see, we could get to the bottom of this cancer and stop all the media and Raider Nation rhetoric that's based on pure conjecture.
Personally, I'd like Art Shell to be successful, because that would mean the Raiders are successful, but based on the 12 games I watched this year (and nothing else) I wouldn't be disappointed to see a powerhouse coach take over as O.C. or H.C.
I think most or all of us would sigh in relief if Mr. Rob "Caveman" Ryan was named H.C., and he was given power to hire his own staff (on both sides of the ball).
Rob Ryan did not turn the defense around in one year. This is his third year. Yet so many of us seem so willing to kick Art to the curb and he hasn't even had one year yet. If we gave Ryan three years shouldn't we at least give Art two?
Art's problem is while he inherited bad situations - he's actually made them worse.
1. The offense was bad - it's now worse.
2. The o-line was terrible - it's now worse.
3. Discipline and unity as an organization was poor - Now it's even worse with open warfare between him and Porter and him and Lombardi.
It's no coincidence that whatever shit is flying - Shell is involved somewhere.
4. Game management was poor - It's now even worse.
And so on, Shell hasn't improved ANY area of the team, he's getting by on 1st year excuses and nothing more.
He's brought nothing tangible to the table whatsoever - The defense is all on Ryan, and the work had begun last season.
Art Shell is a fucking lousy HC, and we all know it, if this guy wasn't a HOF Raider he wouldn't have any support left whatsoever. Sentiment and sentiment alone is the reason people still support him - publicly anyway.
I agree with NYRaider's assessment that the "cancer" is losing football. When a team has won a scant 15 games in the last 4 years there is bound to be in-fighting, dissension, controversy, and above all, second guessing.
As far as the D goes, I give the lion's share of credit to Rob Ryan. It has been his coaching, schemes, adjustments, player development, and last but not least, inspirational leadership that has turned this unit into an elite group. I like Shell but his involvement in the D is next to minimal at best.
I don't think any true Raider fan expected a miraculous 1 year turnaround but clearly we have taken a step back from last year's dismal 4-12 showing which is pretty sad.
I am hopeful that we can cleanse all of the bad apples, draft wisely, and get back to discussing Raider football instead of all the B.S., squabbles, and chaos.
I wish I could say that Shell has a firm grasp on the steering wheel but I have seen the opposite with all of the in-house issues constantly spilling into the public news sources. I would also hope that Shell takes it upon himself to improve his communication with the players after sorting out the bad apples.
panty,you are looking way to deep,trying to rationalize what is happening..... just look at what is going on and it will tell you the answers,why is it on this team that the players can run out the coaches??? is this not a trait of Al Davis teams???? this has been going on since flores was here,he lets the players control things and he undermines his coaches by siding with players some of the time...who is at fault for this culture????? also,it is so obvious that art isn't the man for the job,anyone worth his salt as a HC would have this ship running much better that what art is doing. anyone who watches football can see that...many say art needs more time,at this rate it will take 5 years before he figures it out... there is no way a coach can say one thing and then himself,do another,he loses respect..there is no way he can try and make players play in an offense that doesn't fit the personnel,he loses respect for that..his ingame coaching loses respect and it wouldn't matter if we had a team of angels,they would see that art isn't good enough and to put players into that situation and have to over come it...it won't happen....there is disention within the organization and that comes from a dysfunctional operation and that starts at the top..the players see it and it leads itself to what we see happening,it has nothing to do with the press or even the fans,this is all inhouse and it continues to fragment the organization and cripples it to a poor product.....we as fans and the press as well see what is happening and comment on it,thats all there is to it. it doesn't start from a cancer in the press muttering garble in a column or a disgruntled fan on a blog...it is inside the team that is causing it and that is what has to be fixed to turn it around,plain and simple.
Imagine what an imbecile you'd have to be to call t-shirts "pee" shirts and think you're clever, and to spend 100 key strokes on what it takes me one key stroke to delete. Forget remedial training, time to send our friend to special ed.
Mmmm...I love the taste of deleted imbecile.
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