No Postgame Take
I don’t have one postgame take, let alone my normal five postgame takes. I have no postgame take. If I write that everything will be okay, then people will scream that I’ve got my head in the sand (or worse). If I write that this game was an insult to the concept of competitive football, then people will scream that I’m turning into a pessimist. Let me just say that, while I remain an optimist about the Raiders, I’m increasingly left grasping for evidence to support my optimism.
So I’m turning this take over to you, fellow Raiders fans. I ask only that you first identify yourself as belonging to one of the following three categories (STOP, GO or STOP & GO), and that you explain yourself as prompted below:
1. STOP! This team is not on the right track. Here’s what needs to happen: (fill in the blanks)
2. GO! This team is on the right track. Here’s why: (fill in the blanks)
3. STOP & GO! This team is on both good and bad tracks. Let me explain: (fill in the blanks)
This should be a lively and insightful discussion, as I know there are bright minds on both sides of this Raider Take fence right now. Maybe you can change some minds…Or maybe your mind will be changed. Let the debate commence.
So I’m turning this take over to you, fellow Raiders fans. I ask only that you first identify yourself as belonging to one of the following three categories (STOP, GO or STOP & GO), and that you explain yourself as prompted below:
1. STOP! This team is not on the right track. Here’s what needs to happen: (fill in the blanks)
2. GO! This team is on the right track. Here’s why: (fill in the blanks)
3. STOP & GO! This team is on both good and bad tracks. Let me explain: (fill in the blanks)
This should be a lively and insightful discussion, as I know there are bright minds on both sides of this Raider Take fence right now. Maybe you can change some minds…Or maybe your mind will be changed. Let the debate commence.
posted by Raider Take at 8:18 PM
94 Comments:
i think it is very obvious in what has to change for the Raiders to become competitive again...i have wrote on other sites about Al and have been called every name in the book.... it is over for Al,many of you will say it will never be the Raiders once Al is gone,i beg to differ. I say for the Raiders to become a power again,we need a new era,a new direction, a complete overhaul to how this organization is run from top to bottom.... it HAS to start at the top because that is the overiding factor and it is where it all starts. now if Al can see that he needs to move away and hire some up to date people to run the ship,then i am all for that. if he can't and still wants to show the world that his philosophies are still relevant in todays NFL,then we will continue to see what we are seeing in the last 4 years... to run a franchise in the way it is being run today..it will never win,it is too unstable and does not promote a culture of winning. i have resigned myself to this fact and just biding my time for that day when we can get started in a new era. i know this is another unpopular statement but gruden came in and brought the new era,he left and now we are rolling into the old era and it isn't going to work. gruden did do good things for this franchise and that is where it stops with him,don't care what he is anymore,it's what he was and did when he was here..... i think we would all take back that kind of team in a heart beat right now. Al is a great man,a legend,he has done so much for the league and us fans...with all great men it comes to an end and something has to click inside AL DAVIS' head before anything changes....
I say #3(Stop and Go)
The defense has made tremendous strides in terms of defending the pass and creating turnovers. That's a go. They still need some work on stopping the run. That's a stop.
The offense is a gigantic steaming pile of a stop right now. Its to the point now that you can't easily tell if its the playcalling or the execution because the execution has been so poor of late. The highpoint of the season for the offense was the Arizona game. Since then, its been downhill, even though they've managed to score during the second half.
As for the future, I think we ought to look at what the Saints did for this season. This year's Saints have 34, count 'em, 34 players on the roster this year who weren't there last year. That's why I think it is so important for the Raiders to start the youngsters including Andrew Walter. We need to see what these guys can do, and then cut the drift wood in the off season. Cut guys, trade guys, get picks for them and then CHOOSE WISELY in the draft and possibly free agency. We won't get fair market value for Moss and Porter, but I think at this point it would be addition by subtraction. If all we can get for them is a 3rd round pick each, so be it. They're not doing a damn thing but collecting a check from the Raiders right now.
Another thing I think we need to do is get a GM for this team again. We last had one when Bruce Allen was here, and I don't think its a coincidence that a lot of our bad picks(Buchanon, et al) came about during the time we've been without one. I can't stress enough how important it is for us to get some good football players in this upcoming draft. What good is it to have a top ten pick for 3 years(we gave up one for Moss, ugh) and not have much to show for it.
We need to have backup plans in place for key coaching positions. Even if guys are producing, keep a list of names on the rolodex for immediate call up so we don't go through the search we had at the end of last season.
Finally, with regards to the Gilman offense. Is it still viable or are our current personnel incapable of effectively running it? Do we need to switch to something else? All these questions will have to be answered if we are to have even the semblance of a respectable season. 2002 was 4 years ago, and I don't know how much longer the Raider Nation can wait on that return to greatness. These have been some of the most frustrating football games I have ever seen.
STOP this offense before it kills again !!!!!!!
It's killed the season, killed our defense, and it kills me to watch it !!
Get rid of most everyone on the offense. I'll even help them pack their bags !!!
Don't even wait for the season to end. Give us an early xmas gift, and start waivin' them right now.
Merry xmas to our defense, and to our offense....GOODNIGHT!!!!!!
The only track we are on is one where the tracks fall off the middle of the broken bridge in silent movies, that big loco has Art Shells fat stupid face on it (think like Thomas the tank engine, google it!)
But in reality, and has been touched upon, Al Davis has to go, the team has to be swept clean of the old from top to bottom, WE will not win until Al Davis has lost control.
Simple as that.
He has systematically destroyed this team over the last 20 years.
It really doesn't matter what we do anymore, because the decay that Davis has allowed to grow will strangle opur good young defense, and will send Rob Ryan packing for more promising climes.
I think when you look at Jon Gruden and Sean Payton, and then look at Norv Turner and Art Shell, it tells you all you need to know about the Oakland Raiders.
For the love of god Al - SELL THIS FUCKING TEAM to some modern go ahead owners.
I say "stop". Yes the D is on the right track, and anyone taking over this team would recognize that and not mess with it.
But take off the silver and black glasses and really look at this organization for a minute. Pretend you're not a Raider fan and you have no emotional attachment to the team. Make like John Lennon ("...imagine there's no Black Hole, it's easy if you try...").
We all seem to agree that our head coach can't even identify the best 11 on offense, and is equally bad at hiring assistants. Our head coach and personnel director won't talk to each other. Our owner sits on his hands while Petrino is waiting for an answer and lets him walk. He also couldn't close the deal with Sean Payton, current coach of the year candidate, a couple of years ago. He won't pay head coaches or give them control because he still wants to make every major decision at age 77. And a not very healthy 77 at that.
The offensive system implemented by our head coach was so jurassic that some players seemingly checked out before the first practice. And everyone in the world knew it but our head coach and owner. Anyone airing our dirty laundry in public (or in private if you're Jerry Porter) is sent to Marcus Allen Purgatory. But the head coach can air out his dirty laundry to the media, embarassing the orgaization and fans in the process.
On the field, the one positive (Rob Ryan's defense) is continually sabatoged by the offense and special teams. Coaches are threatening to fight players and even interns ON THE SIDELINE DURING THE GAME.
Warren Sapp, our one true "cancel out the BS and play the game" leader, has finally admitted that we are a totally dysfunctional organization that could have a hard time attracting free agents.
I could go on but I'll spare you (and myself). But let me end with one question: If you were a fan of another team looking at the Raiders, would you think it's time for a complete overhaul? I sure would.
I'm with raiderrealist. I'm a stop and go. Go with the defense, maybe add a few more to what they are doing, because yesterday was embarrassing on all fronts.
The offense though, ugh, has to be stopped. I've seen improvements in the play calling, but overall it is like Walsh is still in charge of the majority of it. What do we need to change the offense.
1. A true offensive Tackle! Not a Guard converted to Tackle, a true Tackle. We need to get rid of Langston Walker, and Robert Gallery at these positions. We need to put Gallery at Left Guard, cutting Sims. Put Gallery back to the position he knows....GUARD!
2. A Center. This is the captain of the line, and have you noticed that every since we lost Barret Robbins, our offensive line has been crap? It's not coincidence. Robbins was outstanding, and I wish he could have gotten his life together. I like Grove, but he doesn't have the wisdom to be our Center right now, and it is showing.
3. A Running Back. Jordan just isn't doing it for me. Grant it, he is a huge step up than Harvey Williams was, but I've never been impressed with his vision of the field (or lack thereof). I like Fargas, but he is not a #2 back. I've said it before, a RB should be drafted.
4. A Tight End. Preferably one that can catch and block. I thought we missed our opportunity in the last draft to pick up one of two strong TE's: Dominique Byrd (USC, now with St Louis), and David Thomas (UT, now with the Pats).
5. Receivers. Yes, trade Moss and Porter. I believe we could get a First Round pick for Moss. Maybe a 2nd or 3rd for Porter. Bring up Morant, Wil Buchanan (who impressed me in pre-season, Curry at #2. Draft either Dwayne Jarret, Ted Ginn Jr, or Limas Sweed, whomever is available in that order.
6. Make a decision at QB. It is either Walter now, or someone else. If Walter is the QB of our future, then the future is now. Let Brooks go. There will be someone else to sign in the offseason, someone better, if Walter is not going to be the guy. Trade Tui to someone for any of the above needs or a few picks. But a decision has to be made here. But it should not be made until the above positions are dealt with first.
At running back, it's definitely a STOP for me. Look at the four RBs drafted in the first round this year, Reggie Bush, Joseph Addai, Laurence Maroney and DeAngelo Williams. All four look like they will be strong forces on their respective teams. Maurice Jones Drew, who was drafted in the second round, racked up 300 total all-purpose yards by himself yesterday.
Meantime, the Raiders have virtually ignored this position in the draft. We have drafted a RB in the third round or higher just once (Fargas, 3rd round) in the past eight drafts. Over this same period, we have drafted seven DBs in the third round or higher.
STOP ignoring youth at the RB position!
Ok, First I think the offense id astop. John Shoop may not be a genius, but he has improved the playcalling .In the process he has shown us that the playcalling wasn't the problem, which I think we all need to accept.Art Shell has made some questionable personel decions, that is true. Alvis Whitted has no business starting. Line up Moss and Curry with Morant the 3rd receiver.HAving acknowledged that, Art Shell hasn't been in a Raider uniform in 25 years.I haven't seen him on the field once this year.Art shell hasn't fumbled the ball,thrown an interception or missed a block all season.Blaming the coach is one reason we are ahere we are today.We never want to blame the talentless players on the O-line or the cry-babty receivers that can't catch or don't like having to obey rules.we blame the coach instead of the fat lineman that ends up on his butt on alnmopst every play.Or the long0hared loser that stands there like a scared deer while DE's walk around him to the QB. We blame the coaches instead of the players and that is wrong. Youc can coach all you want but the coach isn't the guy on the field.Playing the young guy is fine,but lets get some common sense, putting Andewr Walter back in as the starting QB would be suicide for him and the team. I for one don't need to see him get sacked one more time(and it would be far more than once) to know he isn't the QB of the future.Walter would be the final bullet.
And can we stop with the coach crap? Payton decided he wasn't interested in the job resulting in Turner's hire. Davis offered Petrino $15 million for chrissake!The highest amout ever offered to a coach by the Raiders!He turned it down!What more could Al do? Alot of blame can be placed on Al Davis including the reasons these coaches declined his offer's. But he made the offers, that's all he can do.If a coach chooses to decline, he has to move on.We have to move on.
This team has a core of very good player and a lot of dead wood that needs to be jettisoned.
Like raiderrealist said, the Saints totally retooled that team in 1 year which I think could be more easily done here since we already have a damn good D.
When you think about it, the offseason needs are pretty obvious.
STOP the offensive line and half the 'skill' players.
1) Draft that RB with our #1 pick. It's tough to say Jordan is a problem with our O-line being so bad, but my gut says we can do better. Keep Fargas.
2) Trade Moss and/or Porter if there is any chance. Curry needs to be a starter and I don't care who is on the other side, just as long as they work hard and don't cause distractions.
3) Of our many young tallented recieving TEs, teach one to block and start him, Anderson isn't the answer. If not, draft another one who can block first and catch second.
O-LINE
1) Cut Walker and get a RT who isn't the worst in the league. We need a big year in free agency and this is the first position to look for, besides maybe Center.
2) Between Boothe and McNasty we should be OK at RG I think.
3) Center is a problem. Grove is not what I expected. Get a smarter guy who can call the right protection and not get pushed into the QB. Also we get beat with stunts consistantly. Teams know this and typically wait for critical situations to run stunts because they know it's a sack. Grove should be picking these up for the most part. Fumbled snaps suck.
4) I don't know about Sims. I think with a solid group around him he can play well at LG. But he is getting old so we'll need to plan ahead anyway, get a stud LG to groom under Sims and possibly play. Maybe McNasty is that guy once he shakes off the rookie mistakes and if Boothe continues to impress at RG. We need to keep an eye out for a solid proven veteran at either Gaurd position though.
5) Gallery is the tough one. Will he ever get good? I say give him another chance, but get another guy as competition to light a fire under his ass, and to provide an insurance policy. Get an older LT in FA with proven starting ability, just for a year or two until he retires or leaves. If Gallery still sucks next year at least our season isn't lost. I think Slaughter has flled in OK the last few weeks but we need consistancy.
The theme here is to add wisdom to the line. We have too much youth and no leadership. This season would've been so much different if we had just one Lincoln Kennedy or just one Wiz. Get that guy in free agency or in a trade for our WR, and upgrade elsewhere with every opportunity. Also I'm thinking we should get older guys because frankly, drafting another o-lineman scares the hell out of me these days after seeing this.
Fix the O-line and we easilly score two more TDs per game, and we easilly win 8 games plus. Get that RB in the draft and fix the WR issue, personnel-wise we can't be stopped with our D killing everyone. Of coarse, I'm assuming Walter is what we think he is, and I'm assuming this can be done under the cap.
As far as coaching goes, Shell is a solid leader moving in ONE direction, and Rob is great, that's a start. Shoop is a definate improvement but I say get a new coordinator with a modern system, pay him a lot, and get him down on the field to get in the players' asses when they mess up. I'm sick of seeing Shell just standing there looking disappointed.
Psycho
RT: I agree completely with your RB assessment. The problem you elude to is compounded by the fact that RBs typically have a short shelf-life due to the pounding they take. I know we got Jordan when he was relatively fresh, but look at our history of signing “used-up” backs... it's staggering.
This doesn't take a brain surgeon to formulate, but I'm a STOP on our entire offense, i.e., players and coaches. This group has become a complete embarrassment to themselves and the fans. Not to give any players a pass, but virtually all have performed far better individually and collectively in other systems (including past Raider teams for many of them). So what gives now? One thing, as pointed out by other posters, we have many players out of position, and our young talent sits on the bench. With 2 wins under our belt, can anyone explain the logic of that to me.
Raider00 said: "Don't even wait for the season to end. Give us an early xmas gift, and start waivin' them right now." That's funny stuff.
The problem, however, seems to stem deeper than on-field, as many have pointed out. The communication breakdown between Art Shell and (presumably) Mike Lombardi has to be a real concern if we move forward with both remaining.
BTW, RN75: trading Tui is not an option. He's a free agent next year.
Oh yeah. I’m a GO with the defense. No matter what happens in the front office, with the H.C., O.C., offensive assistants and players, the defensive unit should be left alone. We’re one or two run stoppers removed from something very special. One Question: why in man coverages the past few weeks are we not blitzing? With our corners, we should be putting more pressure on the QB. Is it because we’re so afraid of the run?
Go for the D
Stop for the O. I would be ok if they cut everyone on this side of the ball.
Yesterday went pretty much as I imagined it would. The Raiders had nothing to play for and the Bengals had everything to play for.
Can you draft a GM?
STOP & GO:
Seems I've earned a reputation as overly optimistic around these parts. I think we've made good strides, not because we're doing better, but because we've unearthed significant problems which previously remained hidden.
As for these last games of the season, we're not going to get a lot of information here. When a team is 2-10 (now 2-11) there isn't much reason to fight, except for pride. I haven't seen a lot of pride in the offense all season. It's not that the whole unit is giving up, but individuals are. And the problem with this unit has always been individuals and chemistry. We will likely finish at 2-14, with the undisputed first pick in the draft. We should trade that pick for extra draft picks. We should trade Moss for a starter (OL) and an extra draft pick. I don't think we'll get anything for Porter.
In the first round, we should draft an RB or a WR. On the OL, Gallery should be moved inside to LG. He's not built as a T, and can't master the footwork at that position. In the off season we should concentrate on finding Ts for the OL.
I've already suggested picking up Patrick Ramsey at QB. I'm not sure of his contract with the Jets, but he may be a free agent. If not, we could probably trade Porter for him.
As for coaching, I'd fire our O-Line coaches. Good players, but they can't teach. Walsh will likely remove himself as TE coach. We also need a new QB coach, or Shoop should be moved back there. I'd suggest Fassel for OC. Davis has almost hired him as HC on several occasions, and he used to be a good coach for the Raiders. Alternatively, Shell and Davis need to beat the bushes for a bright, young, ambitions mind.
For several reasons, I think the Raiders need to replace Lombardi, and not just because of what Shell said a couple of weeks ago, but because the Raiders' O looks like a patchwork quilt, without rhyme, reason, nor chemistry.
As for anonymous' statement that we need to get rid of Al... Well, I wish folks would get the picture that that is exactly what is happening. Except that Al is removing himself. What do you expect is going to happen when an organization's guiding hand for forty years begins to let go? I'll tell you. Power struggles, infighting, and disorganization. Sorta looks like what's going on right now, doesn't it.
i agree with mad stork, if you look at our organiziation with hindsight, we are in bad shape.
with that said, i also truly believe this season was a Stop & Go. First, we were never the 85 Bears, so critics need to relax about our defense's performance against the Bengals. they've kept us from being a complete lauging-stock all season. they're young, they're learning, and they are WAY imporved from years before. with a few tweaks, mainly at DT, we'll be a force.
there's not much to say about the offense. shell was hired late, and he made two really big mistakes: he brought in tom walsh, and he overestimated the talent on the o-line. anyone who remembered hostetler getting be-headed on a weekly basis knew bringing back walsh was a bad decision. but i don't think anyone, including fans, ever imagined gallery would be so bad. everyone else in that unit, like simms and walker are back-ups at best.
if we draft a QB then we run the risk of going through a few more years of total rebuilding pangs. by the time that's over our defense will be dismantled. i think we need to draft a franchise RB, and sign or trade for a QB already in the league - leftwitch, vick, schuab. and then spend a ton of money building the o-line. but this may be a pipe-dream. if all fails, i could live with aron brooks one more season. but we NEED a RB and a line that can block.
as for the coaching staff? i don't know. i'd say throw more money at petrino and see what happens.
Blandarocked,
I think Fassell would make a better General Manager than OC. I like Fassell and was hoping to sign him instead of Turner, but he was offered the job, and declined.
I'm scared that when Lombardi goes, Al Davis will go with a guy who was a Raider in the "glory days" to fill that spot; and is having trouble with his current team. I speak of Matt Millen. I'm scared about this even being a possibility, but it is a possibility, and I can see Davis making this move.
Personally, I'd rather see Art Shell promote himself (or even Walsh) into this position, and promote Ryan as HC, and either give the position of OC to Shoop, or find someone else.
I think the player talent is there, but they have no confidence in themselves or what they are doing. They can bring back Harbaugh as QB coach, or even Jeff George in as QB coach.
I've made my say with the moves we need to make team wise.
NYRaider, I'd forgotten that Tui was a free agent after this year. I think he will sign with the Bucs, and be reunited with Gruden. It's ashamed we couldn't get anything for him.
Yeah Fassel would be perfect as an OC. I say move Shoop back to QB, Get Fassel (or someone similar), and get a new O-line coach who is good for Fassel's system. Drafting a RB, I'll bet we can get a good Tackle or a Guard plus a draft pick for Jordan and hopefully the cap hit isn't that bad. It sucks that trading/releasing Porter is a big cap hit but one of the two needs to happen. Same with Moss if he wants to keep acting like a B, but without the cap hit.
If someone says we need to replace ALL of our O-linemen and coaches I'll inderstand. But I disagree with completely revamping the entire O. We still have some guys who have contributed to good offensive showings in Oakland. We need to cut the fat, cut the crap, fill the gaps, and motivate whoever is left with improved leadership. We spent so much effort doing this to the D that we neglected the O. The D was bad when we had young Nnamdi, Brayton, Sam Williams, Tommy Kelly, and Stew. The moral of the story is to keep Curry, Morrant, Madsen, Walter and Fargas among others.
Psycho
This is an awesome and informative dialogue, thanks everyone!
Raider Nate:
I thought Fassel might be good choice because he was with the Raiders when the Raiders were running this current offense before, but has been through wars ever since and knows what's current. I think that part of the problem with Walsh is that he had no credibility (because he hasn't done any coaching in 11 years) with the players, and they rejected him.
You mentioned Harbaugh for QB coach, but I think that I'd also consider him for OC. George would be a bad choice at QB coach because of his lack of leadership, and because he has notoriously bad mechanics. He's just been able to make what he does work for him.
I am posting the following take on behalf of Chris R., who wrote via email:
"STOP. The fact that you are even considering being positive after 4 losing seasons in a row is pitiful.
Here's what needs to happen:
1.) Hire a strong, dynamic, head coach that can energize, motivate, and most importantly lead this team.
2.) Hire an offensive coordinator that is talented.
3.) Draft a QB. Not drafting Matt Lienhart is proving to be one of the biggest draft day debacles of recent memory.
4.) Draft some more Offensive Lineman and try to do it based on their actual skill and ability rather than how big they are.
That’s the quick fix list. Who knows, maybe it will get us to 500 and actually help us beat a division foe in 2007."
GO for the D. STOP for the O. Couple things are clear--the team no longer thinks AW is the QB of the future, otherwise he'd be playing. That puts the Raiders in the QB derby in the draft. They passed on Leinart this year and aren't likely to make the same mistake in 2007. Look for Troy Smith in silver and black next year. Then comes the O-line, which has already been covered to death in these posts, then the RB. Unfortunately, I think its time to burn down the offense and start the rebuilding process [hey, look how qick the Saints rebounded]. If trades were possible just for the sake of argument and ignoring cap hits, no way Moss fetches more than a 4 and Porter a 3 [yes, Porter will be more valuable because he's not been hurt and he plays hard all the time]
If this were a publicly traded corporation and we were shareholders, we would be calling for an entirely new executive team and quite possibly transfer of ownership. Fact is the only time the Raiders have gotten away from Al's vision and style over the last two decades we've won and been in the elite teams atop the league.
And just like a corporation, bad leadership and execution in the field is a direct result of the same at home office which is why changes start at the top.
I agree with the top post from anonymous: Al is a great man and has done wonders for the league, but yes men and family loyalty ain't accomplishing jack. So for that matter, stop on everything but the defense, the entire offensive staff should be sent into early retirement (even you Freddy B, I love ya but it's time for change).
As for players, I think new coaching, schemes and atttitude could probably get 8-8 with this roster as is.
And unlike some on here, I love Gruden. I'm ticked he left and he isn't doing alot in Tampa so why not bury the hatchet Al, he's falling out of favor in Tampa and there's a mobile QB in the AFC West who's no longer the man in his city and may be looking to settle a score with a rival just like Gannon in '98.
So go ahead Al, pull the trigger, bring back Gru, sign Plummer and let's build on what gave us that fleeting run in the late 90's.
Either that or get Tedford out of Cal. It'd kill me to see him leave but at least he'd be leaving my college team for my pro team and could probably draft Marshawn Lynch and Brendan Mebane.
On another note, we've had Ted Washington, Jon Parella and Sam Adams in here, some of the best run stoppers in the league over the past decade. Why is it we still can not truly stop the run?!!!
For all the discussions about who to draft, QB seems to come up a lot. Personally, I think we need to draft the "best" RB with our forecasted top pick in 2007. However, it will be very interesting to watch Troy Smith play for a national championship. And, if he plays like Vince Young did last year, well, who knows, maybe Al will break the emergency glass protecting the button on the wall that says "don't draft a QB in the first round."
I'm with you nyraider. We'll see how it unfolds though. It's just unfortunate that we're a year late going 2-11, we missed out on Bush and Young. From what I see so far, this draft does not have such extreme tallent on the high end. If there is not an established superstar RB or QB by April that fits us, we may be better off trading down. If Al does fall in love with a QB and break the glass, at least we still have Walter, one if them has to work out, we can just hang on for a few years and dump the 2nd place guy.
Does anyone know if it's possible to get Ron Wolf back?
Psycho
I can't give Coach Shell the benefit of the doubt any longer. I've tried to be patient and keep my mouth shut but today was the last straw. He's got to go. He's inept and incapable of making prudent decisions on the field. He might be a good coach Mon-Sat but boy does he suck on Sun. The Witted fumble after the interception in the first quarter had to be challenged. It was a crucial play early in the game when teams are attempting to establish dominance. Who cares if you lose a timeout in the first half? But once again- no red flag. Then when down by 14 points and at the opponents 34 yard line on a 4th and 5 he sends out a kicker in a slump with a bad back to attempt a 51 yard field goal for a 2-10 team. Are you freaking kidding me? These tidbits along with what you mentioned about the tight ends and the mishandling of the Lombardi situation, and his general lack of direction towards the players and the other coaches during the game has taken its toll on me.
This shit isn't rocket science.
Sean, we need a coach and a QB before we start getting serious about football again. I look at the Saints with Sean Payton and Drew Brees and how those two additions changed a horrible football team and can just imagine what those kind of additions would do for the Raiders with their talented defense and core of young players.
Art Shell is not the answer. Aaron Brooks is not the answer. The old man better wake up or retire. I've been a diehard Raider fan since 1970. I can deal with losing. I can't deal with hopelessness.
As long as everyone is talking draft already, here's my 2 cents.
Last year I lobbied hard for one of the Qb's. No dice.
This year, I'm not really wild about Quinn.
Let's take the best left tackle available. I know, I know, Gallery sucks. This is true, but we have to keep trying, because our o-line is a joke.
You can always get a RB, or Qb in later rounds, but finding a blue chip LT after round one is almost impossible.
By the way, looks like Denny Greens, & Jeff Fishers patience with their young Qb's is paying off with some nice late season wins.
Too bad Art Shell didn't show the same patience with Walter.
Stop: Management
Lombardi should be fired. A strong, experience GM is desperately neeeded.
Stop & Go: D
A run stuffing DT and a playmaking, run stuffing SLB needs to be added. If possible, a true SS should be added (Bing?) and Huff switched over to FS. DE Huntley should take more of Brayton's snaps. To become an elite unit, the Raiders need to create more QB pressure from their front 4. Brayton has no pass rushing skills. The core of the D is good.
Stop: O
O-Line: This unit is a complete mess. We need a dominant, veteran LT first and foremost. A center should be identified in the draft to compete with Grove.
LT - Veteran FA
LG - McNasty/Sims
C - Grove/Draftee
RG - Boothe
RT - Slaughter/Gallery
TE - Draft pick 2nd-7th round
Anderson - Strictly a blocking TE
Williams - Special Teams player
Madsen - Moved to WR (his natural position)
WR - The core group worth keeping (Curry, Madsen, Morant, Buchanon)
Trade: Porter/Moss
Draft: 2nd-3rd Round pick
RB: Draft Adrian Petereson with 1st round pick
QB: Look at FA market for a QB to compete with Brooks and Walter.
Stop & Go: Coaching Staff
Hire Fassell as OC. Move Shoop to QB coach. Hire top tier Offensive Line Coach. Shell remains HC for 2007 season and is moved into management in 2008. Either Fassell or Ryan promoted to HC in 2008.
Added Note:
In reference to Raider00's comment; I would not be disappointed or 2nd guess the Raiders if they do in fact draft LT Joe Thomas with their 1st round pick. I have no problem with drafting blue chip O-linemen with our early picks. The O-line in my mind should be priority #1.
to blanda..... the front office is now a mess because Al is letting go and there is a power struggle???? how is it you come to that conclusion??? it would still be Al's problem because if is relinquishing power then he should do it in a manner that is conducive to winning and not to let a free for all occur,ya think??? why must you give Al a free pass on anything??? i will say to all the art bashers..... it is all on Al,he is the one that hasn't brought in a quality coach to run the team,art is doing his best and you can see that it isn't good enough...this is not art's fault ,again, it is the man who hired him,the man that has convinced art to bring the retro Raiders back and sets him up with his ancient playbook and tells art" go gettem art "..meanwhile art doesn't have the tools to deal with todays game and throwing him under the bus by making him do it the "OLD RAIDER WAY" is just shameful on Al's part.. i put no blame on art,he took the job when no one else would..Al gave him the OLD RAIDER speech and art fell for it like many of the fans...funny,how many posters wrote that people who did not agree with the hiring of art were traiders and nonfans????? and now we have those same posters ripping art when all along they should be ripping the one who threw art into this nightmare... but again,all the REAL FANS will never ever hold Al accountable for anything under the guise of treason... it truly is sad that Al has such a stranglehold on these fans,he talks about bringing back the past and all these types melt like popcorn butter....it is time for a new era,this team does not look like Al has given up his control,it has his palmprints all over it..... you say replacing lombardi for what reason??? because that is who believe is the mole??? he wanted petrino and we got art,art hasn't been speaking to him for a while......when will you quit defending a losing system??? when will you quit defending in the name of Al Davis???? when will you start supporting what is best for the RAIDERS???? to me we should all be on the train for change ,this is what is needed for us to return to greatness,if you haven't noticed,doing it the OLD RAIDER WAY is killing us....
CJ-
I like everything you put out there except Fassel, who's already been fired twice for offensive ineptitude, most recently by his best friend, Billick [ouch!]
I like the Rob Ryan for HC comment. That would make for some very interesting post game video. I hope he stays a Raider forever.
Psycho
I DO NOT AGREE with drafting Brady Quinn! He is overrated, and cannot handle pressure and blitzes from opposing defenses. He forces and tries to squeeze in passes instead of throwing the ball away, or taking a sack. He is not a "heady" football QB; and he will not improve the Raiders at this position. This is the reason why he was not the Heisman winner this year like everyone thought he'd be, because he did not show any improvement.
Now I've heard the argument that "He's a competitor, and plays with heart, blah-blah-blah..." Well, don't they all!
If we are going to draft a QB, I'd rather draft Troy Smith. But in reality, we need a RB that is going to solidify our running game. THE RUNNING GAME SETS UP THE PASSING GAME! HOW MANY TD'S HAVE OUR RB'S MADE ALL SEASON? DOES ANYONE KNOW?
FIVE! FIVE RUSHING TD'S ALL SEASON! AND WE SIT AND WONDER WHY OUR OFFENSE IS CRAP, AND WHY OUR OFFENSIVE LINE CANNOT PROTECT THE QB! UNBELIEVABLE!
QB IS NOT THE PROBLEM ON THIS UNIT. OUR O-LINE CAN IMPROVE THEIR PASS PROTECTION WITH A SOLIDIFIED RUNNING GAME, AND A FEW MORE STRONG VETERAN LEADERSHIP (WHICH IS NOT FOUND IN LANGSTON WALKER). WE NEED TO DRAFT A RUNNING BACK THAT WILL GIVE US A FIGHTING CHANCE IN OUR OFFENSE.
A RUNNING BACK THAT IS GOING TO RUN NORTH-SOUTH, HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE CUTS, AND HAVE DOWN THE FIELD VISION! ALL OF THESE THINGS IS WHAT IS LACKING WITH JORDAN, FARGAS, AND COMPANY!
I'm having a tough time understanding how this current excuse for an NFL team can get back to being competitive with some tweaks here and there. Jim Fassel?!! Don't any of you remember the GIants quitting on him before he was let go? We already have that here and people want more of it? A left tackle here or there? Brady Quinn? Troy Smith? Why, so they can be asked to drop back and wait until someone's open 50 yards downfield?
This mess won't be solved with draft picks and a free agent here or there, we just did that through Turner and now Shell, and we've gotten worse, not better. I agree with Anon 7:50, until Al leaves or changes his ways this is what we can expect. And since the second will never happen with the stubborn old man, I just hope Ms. Trask when she takes over can think out of the box when it comes to hiring coaches and building a system.
Al: find yourself a young, dynamic, highly respected strategist and leader as HC and let him do it his way and leave him alone. And this time, try and get it done in February, not April. Our owner has a chip on his shoulder and we the fans are paying the price.
Anon 7:50:
I tried to read your post, but I couldn't get past the part that says that it's all Al's fault because he didn't hire a good coach. It's not Art Shell's fault because of Al's failure to hire a better coach than Art? Huh.
Don't want to disturb your Al Davis hate fest, but the man is 77 years old. While the word from the front office is that Al is fine, he hasn't even been seen anywhere near the practice facility all season. In fact, nobody has really seen anything of him other than at scheduled events, and sitting in his box at games.
From all appearances, Al has had very little involvement this year after hiring Art Shell. I don't know where the hell you get the idea that I'm a Shell basher. I've spent a lot of time defending Shell this season. My position all year has basically been that when problems occur, it is often caused by circumstance rather than personality. You seem to be a personality guy. You believe that there must be a villian. Good luck with that.
Now, is your position that Al Davis is doing his best to make this team a loser? That doesn't seem to make any sense, since Al's whole identity is wrapped up in this team. Is it your position that Al Davis isn't doing anything, and that's the problem? Hmmmm. Seems to me that's what I said. Although I didn't choose to make Al a villian for it. I called it a matter of Davis' age and health, and organizational changes caused by that lack of involvement. But then, maybe you think Al Davis is Satan and never grows old or unhealthy.
Anon 8:33-
Have to disagree. This has nothing to do with Al. Al as a controller/meddler/dictator is left over media BS from a long time ago. With the possible exception of the draft, Al has dropped out of the everyday decisionmaking since [at least] Gruden. Look at the players and systems--Norv's system was different from Walsh's but neither worked. Gruden's was different from both and did work. Why? Leadership on the offensive side of the ball from coaches and players. Gruden ran the O and had Gannon, Brown and Rice. Norv was no leader and who did Norv have leading on the field, KFC? Where are Art's leaders? There's your answer and it's also why the defense plays better [see Sapp, Warren and Morrison, Kirk]. Then you have to look at who he tried to hire--Payton, Petrino--these guys have their own systems, so Al's not interested in his system, only in winning.
lk:
Ah, a breath of fresh air. Good post.
Anon thinks Al Davis can do no right. Blandarocked thinks Al can do no wrong.
The truth is probably somewhere in between.
Look, everyone knows that while the Raiders were winning with Gruden, Al sat up in his box, and he just didn't like Grudens offense.
Al had it set in his old heart to try mad bomber ball one more time. I can't blame him. those were great times, & teams, and an exciting brand of football.
In came Norv, & now Art, & Walsh, and, well, here we are again. Pre Gruden, down in the dumps, with "no direction home", as Dylan would sing.
So where do we go from here ?
Do we continue down the verical path ? I still think it can work, but it will take a slew of talented players on offense(see the Chargers), to make it go.
The Raiders are far, far, away from having all the players they would need.
It's been over 20 years since they had a TE that could catch the ball, so I doubt they will be finding one anytime soon. Not to mention the 0-line, which is in shambles, RB, FB, QB, & even WR's.
They need it all.
Or do we inch back to more of a Gruden style, where it's more of a system, and you can get by with just a few good players on offense ?
Tough choices, at a critical time.
I hope the right ones will be made.
Raider00:
It's not that I think Al can do no wrong, it's just that I've never bought into the idea that ALL decisions are made by Al. It's just not humanly possible in an organization this large.
You can always fairly "blame" Al for staffing decisions. You can put Amy Trask at Al's doorstep, along with Lombardi and Shell. This also includes Davis' hiring of former Raider players as assistant coaches. But it's intersting to me that Al gets virtually all of the blame for every bad player on the team, but no credit for the good ones.
Where does Lombardi fit into all of this? Doesn't he bear the title of PERSONNEL DIRECTOR.
lk is right in that since Davis hired Gruden, he relinquished power to Bruce Allen and then Lombardi. Yes, he's always asked that HCs explain their moves and their actions. I have no problem with an owner doing those things because he's writing the checks.
I have no doubt that Davis was responsible for bringing in Moss. I've been very critical of Moss this season, and by extention, of Al for bringing him in. But Al also brought us Sapp, who has been stellar this season.
My point is, and has always been, that this is a mess that isn't resolved by just saying, "get rid of Walsh," or "get rid of Shell," or "make Al Davis sell the team."
The Raiders have big time personnel issues, which seem to be confined to offense. I identify the reasons for that as the rapid changes of coaching personnel over the last four years (causing an accumulation of players with no guiding philosophy), power struggles within the organization (caused by Davis' slow withdrawal), and the fact that Shell concentrated on defensive personnel in the last off season. Shell didn't know at the time that he'd need two new WRs, a different RB, and nearly a whole new OL.
Folks, who identify the problems running from "top to bottom" are correct. But the Glenn Dickey argument that Al is simply evil and the Raiders will never win another Super Bowl unless we kill him... I just have to laugh.
Blandarocked,
Sorry dude, I stand corrected. Now if we can only get Anon to say some good things about Al.
RaiderNate 75,
I don't agree that the Raiders should use top three pick on a running back. Where did that get Tampa, & Miami with Williams, & Brown ??
I do agree that Quinn is not the answer.
That's why I say go with the left tackle(I believe Calico mentioned Joe Thomas). This makes the most sense to me. Start with rebuilding the rotted 0-line, because you cannot pass, or run, without blocking.
We can always get a RB in round 2, and give Walter a more fair chance next yr with a running game, & some blocking to work with.
I would also like to start a rumor.
Randy Moss to the Redskins, for Sean Taylor.
Bama7
I agree with Anon and all the others that are sick and freakin' tired of the same old sh&* out of Davis. I remeber hearing rumors that Gruden was going to leave. I couldn't believe it. Finally, for the first time since 1986 we were on track and a force again in the NFL and he was leaving??? I couldn't believe it. Al couldn't stand that he was being bypassed on everything.
Al is making all of the decisions. How can every team since the late 90's(save Gruden's) look the same? How? Al, I say. Shell, White, Bugel, Callahan, Turner, Shell blah blah blah. Gruden's the only one that came in and tried to do his own thing. The rest kissed ass and ran the Gillam offense. What coach would turn down a shot at the nfl? what coach? Only Al's franchise. Peyton, Whisenhunt, Petrino, Saunders etc etc. Don't buy into the bullshit that they weren't offered jobs. They were, but all they had to do was make a few calls around the league and they'd hear this: He'll be in your ear constantly. He'll pick your personnel. He'll pick your offense. You'll have to keep Freddie B and Willie B. And Rod Martin. He'll be on the field teaching blocking stances and tackling technique. He'll be in the film room. He has a very strong veto on everything. And if a kick ass RB is available in the draft (Mr future NFL MVP Alexander) he may veto things if he sees a kicker he likes. A FREAKIN KICKER!!!!!! Al is an idiot. Al runs the team. Al brought back dumba^% shell. Al dictates the offense. Al keeps Brayton playing. Al makes Whited a starter. Al keeps Fargas. Shell is just up there holding a whistle. HE brings nothing to the table. ZERO!!! And guys like Peyton, Petrino and Whisenhunt just say "no thanks" baby.
We won't be good again 'til Al's gone. End of story. A miracle would be Al swallows his pride. We'll know that has happened if Shell is fired or a top flight OC is brought in. We shall see, but don't hold you're breath.
I wouldn't tout Whisenhunt as a top OC/HC right about now with the Steelers record. He didn't look like such a guru aqainst the Raider defense, did he?
As for why hot commodity college coaches turn down the NFL, it simple. If you've won a national title or two, you're set for life. Ask the Florida St. fans about getting rid of Bobby Bowden. They can't. Pete Carroll is a god at USC. Same for Bob Stoops at Oklahoma, and Joe Paterno at Penn State. Even Coach K in basketball at Duke. Why give up the penthouse in hand for a possible one in the NFL?
NEWS FLASH......NEWS FLASH !!!!!
The Pats have waived Doug Gabriel
What ?????????????
what,you guys don't think that art is not doing what he is told??? to play certain players,ala whitted,that we must run the offense Al wants and he wants things done throughout the organization his way???? of course he isn't doing EVERYTHING,but he is making the most important decisions and he is influencing art in what HE WANTS and if you tell me that isn't happening... i've seen this all before and it is all to familiar,this is an AL Davis team and if you don't think so then you don't know what is going on and all your denial won't change it.... Al is a legend,i like Al for what he has done but come on,he was getting lost during the ninetys,the game was passing him by then,why is it when gruden came in and went in a different direction that we had success??? why was Al letting it happen???? because he saw that his style of team WASN'T WORKING..he got tired of that kind of offense and team that gruden wanted and he wanted to bring it back to what it was...he is now finding out once again that the OLD RAIDER WAY does not work.... will he hire someone who is capable of turning us around and changing the culture and complextion??? maybe,if he gets tired of watching this garbage over and over or the fans stop coming..,... i don't hate Al,but if you really look and can recognize what is going on from seeing the same teams back in the 90's and late 80's,undisciplined,under achieving and with choas in the dressing room and organization,poor coaching...yes you can see that this is just another one of those teams and this is what you get in Al's vision..to me,it is very obvious,but to those that don't want to see it,you won't see it... OF COURSE AL IS TRYING TO WIN,HE JUST CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE,IS THAT TO HARD TO UNDERSTAND???
One of the big concerns I have revolves around the vacuum of communication from the Raiders ogranization.
By that I mean, no one has heard a peep from Al Davis since the HOF induction. The coaching staff is kept at bay from the press.
This vacuum of communication creates uncertainty, disarray, and 2nd guessing. Is this vacuum of communication due to Davis' poor health and if so, shouldn't there be a designated spokesman for the organization? Is there a clearly defined hierarchy and decisionmaker in Davis' absence?
Regardless of whether or not Davis is intimately involved in the day to day affair or completely hands off, there seems to be a lack of direction.
I realize that the plans for the Raiders in 2007 are still in the process of being formulated and that some of these plans will be articulated at the end of the season. However, I just can't get over the queasy feeling and sense of the organization being rudderless in terms of leadership and direction.
Consider: In the majority of key leadership positions (QB, HC, OC, GM, Owner), there is uncertainty or question marks.
PantyRaider, I love your passion for the positive, but I'm afraid Calico Jack has a point.
By the way, check out Calico Jack's new list of "million dollar" questions on his Silver & Black Forever blog. These are very legitimate questions that we shouldn't shy away from asking.
Go - Anonymous 6:28
Stop - Pantyraider, raiderrealist and all others in denial. Rob Ryan HC? Jim Fassel OC or GM? You are all dreaming. No one is coming to Oakland until things really change. Parcells says Al is his best friend in footabll but would not come to coach or, IMO, let Sean Payton go either. I told my wife LAST year things could not get worse.
memdf-
I think you came late to the discussion. If you are going to call me out by name, please extend me the courtesy of challenging something I specifically said in my post. Challenge one of the points I made in my earlier posts followed up with some supporting arguments that support your viewpoint. Saying that I am "in denial" and dreaming is not debate. That sounds like some of the stuff on sportstalk radio, "you're in denial" and I'm out like some Jim Rome clone. I welcome debate with my fellow fans, but let it be a debate, not some electronic blog-by.
The discussion for this post was about if you think this team is on the wrong track, the right track, or somewhere in between. I gave several points on how I feel this team is doing, both positive and negative. How does that make me in denial? When I say the offense is a gigantic pile of a stop, the defense is good but not great, how does that make me a dreamer? I seriously doubt that if I renounce Al Davis and say he is the end all root cause of our 4 year misery, I seriously doubt that the team will now miraculously start winning games. I gave points on how to improve this team, I missed your constructive viewpoints after "denial" and "dreaming." Would you care to share them with your fellow Raider fans now? In addition to getting rid of Al Davis, what would you do to make this team better?
panty,you are to stuck on the Raider propaganda...i'm not gruden supporting,like i wrote earlier,gruden did good things for us and that is where it stops. don't read about him or follow him anymore... just using what happened when he was here,we went in a diferent direction and the franchise as a whole went up to just missing a super bowl win.now we have gone back to poor coaching and if you can't admit that the coaching is poor this year then yes,you are in denial.the team is undisciplined,under achieving and problems in the locker room.... in todays nfl ,these problems will kill you...and this has been going on since '86 with how many different coaches and players????so what is the one constent???? you got it,Al Davis,it is just a fact... i take away the emotion and look at in black and white,not black and silver,if you do it in black and white,it becomes plain as day to why we continue to have these same problems.....i don't care what other teams are doing or what is happening with other coaches,it is not relevent when breaking down what is wrong with OUR TEAM..... you wonder why there is art shell bashing??? i think most of us love art for what he did as a PLAYER but when it comes to coaching.... he is no where near the coach as he was as a player,that is just a fact,he is not a top tier coach,no fault of his,just a fact.
see panty,you are just blinded by silver and black,you refuse to see the truth. it was lombardi's fault for the contract for porter???come on,who signs the checks???? if Al didn't want it,believe me,it wouldn't of happened. you blame gruden for lombardi being here??? believe me,if Al didn't want him,he wouldn't be here. you say lombardi sent gabriel packing and art HAD to start whitted??? now that is absurd...curry ring any bells,why is he still on the bench??? he is our best wr and he has been on the sidelines all year and don't give me the " he wasn't over his injury" crap. saw an interview with him after a game early in the season and was asked if he was still hurting and he just look at the reporter and shook his head and said no i'm fine. why was whitted starting over curry ?? because of lombardi???? don't think so,whitted has been an Al favorite for how long???? he wouldn't even be on most teams roster but yet he starts over curry and porter sits on the bench after something that happened during TRAINING CAMP...can you call these good decisions??? i can't and it is just a symptom of what is wrong. using lombardi as a scapegoat is ridiculous,he is just a yesman,anyone who knows this team knows who makes the personnel decisions and it isn't lombardi.
p.f. ..... i have one question for you....how many times this year have you heard from opposing teams that our offense is TOO EASY to prepare for??? does that not sound fire alarms??? a 60's or '70s offense is NOT COMPLICATED by todays standards and it will not work in todays game....
p.f.... and didn't they have superstars at almost every position??? the o-line was stacked,hall of famers at rb,qb ,great wr's and t.e,great blocking fb and belive me i didn't hear one quote from an opposing team saying that the cowboy offense was easy to prepare for.... sorry,but i don't agree. you also need to call a good game which takes good coaching,norv was the OC and he was at his best,but then again who wouldn't be with that talent.... don't forget,when it worked for us,we were stacked with talent on the offense as well,you can't get that in the parity league we have today and a salary cap..it's a different game today and if you don't change with it,you get left behind...
the giants??? sorry it wasn't kfc and the offense that got them there,either the ravens, they had great defenses and there offenses just didn't turn it over and let there running games dictate the offense,trent dilfer and kfc,come on.... any rb behind that cowboy line would do well,they were just dominant,switch qb's on dallas and sf and they would have done well,they were hall of fame for a reason....irvine and keyshawn,they may look the same but irvine had more heart and a more burning desire to be great... titans were good for one year as were the falcons and they never won the big one,they were not great teams,dallas was dominate,they had great players with good leadership for coaching,same with, san fran.
raider00 said, "RaiderNate 75,
I don't agree that the Raiders should use top three pick on a running back. Where did that get Tampa, & Miami with Williams, & Brown ??"
antonio pittman, adrian peterson, and mike hart are all better backs than williams and brown. williams and brown can only try and juke you out of your shoes, the really do not have the talent to be running backs; and should be used like warrick dunn in atlanta is used. the difference between the three men i mentioned, is not only will they juke and break your ankles, all 3 will lower their shoulders and run you over. they are true north and south runners (like bo jackson, marcus allen, and napolean kaufman), but they can juke you out of your socks. another option would be to try and lure cedric benson out of chicago. lovie smith and gang are not happy with him, for whatever reason, and he's not happy with them.
but if you draft a rb, you better draft them in the first round. that is the one position in football that has lived up to the "hype" of the first round. unless you are named rashaan salaam.
so here is my scenario. i draft one of the 3 rb's, or trade for benson. i keep my eye on jorvorskie lane (sophmore at texas a&m, 5'11", 265lbs, big bruising rb, not a fb), and draft him the following year. then we have talent at the rb position comparable to what the saints have.
trade moss for a first rounder, and a dt. with the other first round pick, i'd select joe thomas; and go from there. but the running game is just as big of a problem than the o-line.
Calico:
I believe, based on many things that Jim Otto and John Madden have said, that there has never been any hierarchy set up for when Al has moments of non-involvement.
The idea that Al watches over the shoulder of every coach is absurd. He didn't watch over White, nor did he watch over Bugel. Jim Otto talks about that in his book. When Gruden came in, he watched over Gruden, even though Gruden didn't much care for it. Gruden didn't care for it because no other owner does that. No other owner does that because they haven't a clue what the Xs and Os mean.
The players themselves said that Davis didn't watch over Callahan. I don't believe that Davis has been really involved since Gruden, and I think that's the problem - non-involvement by Davis, coupled with no clear system of authority beneath him.
However, this season that problem has been exposed in the biggest way ever. I have no doubt that there will be somewhat of a power struggle within the organization during the off season, and people will be fired. One person will be designated to speak for the Raiders. In short, either Lombardi or Shell (possibly even Trask) will come out on top as the voice of this team.
We know this is true, because for the first time in the team's history the team began to discuss who would run the team when Al was no longer able. (The earlier statements that Al's son will be the owner, and Trask the CEO.)
Alternatively, Al's health problems are only temporary (at the age of 77, 78 next season, how temporary can they be?) and he will be involved in full next season.
I hate to say it, but if there is a power struggle which lasts into April, the Raiders may not be much better next season. If things are resolved quickly, I think things can be turned around quickly.
This is a team in organizational disarray. As frustrating as that is, it was eventually inevitable. This team has had a single guiding hand for over 40 years. Changing that is going to take an adustment period. So for those like Anon, who say that all we have to do is kill Al and the problems go away - sorry. It don't work that way.
Anon, what you say needs to happen is, indeed, happening. Be careful what you wish for. But you may find that it is Art Shell who comes out on top. Do not underestimate this man. Do not underestimate the turmoil that he's gone through this season in front of, and behind the scene.
BTW... So, the Pats released Gabriel. Is this where I get to say "I told you so."
more rhetoric from blanda.... GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD,NEVER HAVE I SAID OR WRITTEN THAT AL NEEDS TO DIE OR ANYTHING LIKE IT. stop the spreading of misquotes.... I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT BECAUSE AL WILL NO LONGER BE IN CHARGE THAT ALL WILL BE GRANDE....bottom line is we need CHANGE,sticking with this status quo is NOT THE ANSWER,so you change and do the best when you change to FIND THE ANSWER. it takes alot of research and interviewing to find this person...are we doing that??? i haven't heard a peep about it... this is where a major of the focus should be coming out of the head offeice. if Al is really not involved or is giving away his authority,then Al being the leader,should be the one to lead the charge to find the RIGHT PEOPLE TO RUN THIS TEAM,not another person who will just carry his recipe another 20 years....this is the solution I THINK that would be the most beneficial to the RAIDERS. please stop with the labeling and false quotes,it takes away from your credibility.... as far as gabriel...why did it take us 3 years to figure out what it took N.E. half a season to figure out???? another one of the hanging on to mediocre talent,ala whitted,gibson and on.... everyone knew that curry is at least #2 wr,he is better than gabriel,gabriel has been nothing more than a #3 and obviously there is something we don't know about him...
BlandaRocked:
I'm not quite sure why you would say "I told you so" in regards to Gabriel. Are you implying that it was wise to trade Gabriel. That is ludicrous. Are you implying that the Raiders are better off with Whitted as our #2.
A "bad" Doug Gabriel being released by the Pats is still better than our starting WR Alvis Whitted.
Gabriel: 25 catches, 344 yards, 13.8 yard avg, 3 TDs
Whitted: 27 catches, 299 yards, 11.1 yard avg, 0 TDs
Gabriel is in the prime of his career (26 years old) while Whitted is getting long in the tooth. Gabriel is 6'2", 215 lbs while Whitted has no size to make the tough over the middle catches.
I'm confused. Why again did we trade Gabriel?
Bottom Line: Gabriel is better than Whitted and at the VERY LEAST would have been a productive, 3rd receiver.
Going into the 2006 Season, a Moss/Curry/Gabriel trio is clearly superior to Moss/Whitted/Curry.
Assuming that we cut the cord on Moss & Porter, wouldn't it be nice to go into 2007 season with Curry/Gabriel/Morant as opposed to
Curry/Whitted/Morant?
I agree with Calico Jack. I still believe the Gabriel trade was a mistake (ala Alvis Whitted). None of us really know the compensation package provided by the Pats, except maybe it was a 5th-round draft choice. This move may have just compromised that compensation to something less, or nothing if the Raiders re-sign him... which they probably should.
Calico:
I'd like to point out that the Raiders had been trying to trade Gabriel for a year prior to when they worked the deal with the Pats. I'd also point out that the Raiders got an "undisclosed draft pick" for him, which some have identified as a 5th round pick. The Pats just had to eat it. I'd also point out that Gabriel hasn't made a catch in the last four games.
Whitted, for my money, takes far too much heat. He isn't a #2, but he's the only starting receiver who puts in a #1 effort. There is no doubt that Curry should be the #2 (#1 for my money), but Curry has suffered three career ending injuries in as many years. That he's playing at all is a miracle of medical science. I can understand Shell's desire to use him sparingly until he proves he can stay healthy. Also, Shell says that in these matters he listens to his trainers, so the trainers have likely told him to go easy on Curry.
Whitted will not be a starter next year. And neither will Moss, and neither will Porter - and neither would Gabriel have been. But the Raiders might well find an OL gem in the fifth round in April. When you're changing the culture, you have to look ahead.
Anno, when have the Raiders EVER kept the media informed about their internal interviews and investigations? The answer is easy for anyone who really watches this team. NEVER.
Peter Fleming, I think you're mistaken. Dallas NEVER ran the Tom Walsh offense. They ran the Norv Turner offense. They both come from the Gillman tree but the Turner version evolved into the 90's while the Walsh version never prgressed past the 70's. Turner's offense had many more formations, motion, etc.
I understand the point you're trying to make but they are different offenses with similar philosophies...
BlandaRocked: Your statement >>> "I can understand Shell's desire to use him (Curry) sparingly until he proves he can stay healthy. Also, Shell says that in these matters he listens to his trainers, so the trainers have likely told him to go easy on Curry." <<< is non-sensical.
Curry has proven from training camp, practices, exhibition season, and 13 weeks of regular season to "stay healthy".
Unless you know the facts, don't assume that the reason Shell hasn't played Curry is on the advice of the trainer. Curry has passed every possible physical exam since May of 2006. Curry has been on the record in numereous interviews stating that he has been 100% healthy since the beginning of training camp.
Yes, I understood the initial plan to ease him into playing time as a pre-cautionary measure at the beginning of the season. But come on ... It took a Moss injury for Curry to start in Week #14?
Also, your statement >>> "Whitted will not be a starter next year. And neither will Moss, and neither will Porter - and neither would Gabriel have been. But the Raiders might well find an OL gem in the fifth round in April." <<< is rather silly, no offense intended.
Gabriel would have more value to the Raiders than a longshot, late 5th round pick. More value in terms of playing and contributing for the Raiders in 2006 AND 2007 AND beyond.
Finally, I have nothing but love for Whitted. I certainly don't blame him for being the starter. He is doing the best he can. However, Whitted is a #4 (at best)or #5 WR not a #2. Gabriel is a #2 or #3 WR. Gabriel is hands down superior in every possible way over Whitted.
I find it "fishy" (to use Moss words) that (1) Gabriel was traded to begin with and (2) that Whitted has started over Curry through week 13. In my books, both are bad decisions that cannot be justified by anyone with any credible logic.
Calico:
Re Gabriel. Both the Raiders and now the Patriots seem to disagree with you. I'm more inclined to agree with them, having worked with Gabriel directly, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As for the Patriots, they released Gabriel with only four other WRs on the roster. So the Patriots don't even think Gabriel is a #5.
From the Sporting News:
"What we learned in Foxboro is that Doug Gabriel isn't necessarily the only person to drop the ball. In perhaps one of the most perplexing personnel moves in the Belicheck era, the Patriots released wide receiver Doug Gabriel. Gabriel has had his issues with dropped passes and a costly fumble that has cost him playing time, but the move leaves New England with just four wide receivers, one of which, Chad Jackson, has been fighting nagging injuries all season. You have to assume the Pats have another move in the works to replace this loss of depth, but the pickings have to be somewhat slim at this stage in the season."
PantyRaider:
At the time, the deal for Gabriel was reported as a 5th round pick. I said at the time, and I still think it's the case, that a fifth round pick was the minimum. If Gabriel broke the starting line up, or accomplished certain things for the Pats, it would be more. This kind of trade is not unusual. In view of the circumstances, I think the Raiders will, in fact, get a fifth rounder. And if the Raiders still think that Gabriel is in their future, they can pick him up off the waiver wire.
Also, regarding Gabriel. Something that none of us have ever said, always laying it on Shell, is that if Gabriel was viewed as not having a future with the Raiders, that decision was not made by Shell, it was made by Biletnicoff. Especially since they were trying to trade Gabriel last season before Shell was back on board. My feeling is the reason they started him in the #2 spot in the preseason was to gather interest for a trade.
oh here we go,you are showing your character panty... can't stick with facts and deal with what i'm saying and have an intelligent response... nope,panty has to go to the insult route and try to belittle...good for you panty,there is plenty i could spew on you but i won't go there..keep up the good work fella.
well according to you blanda and panty " the mole " would have leaked it out by now if Al was interviewing for a replacment,no???? gee with all this back stabbing for power,someone would be using a power move and go to the press about it... that weasel lombardi as you like to say should be calling nancy gay right now because he wants some pull with all the power that is being tossed around..... you use rhetoric whenever it is convienent but you don't use much commomn sense.... whitted is One of Al's boys and if you knew about this team ,you would know that.
Panty Riader -Raider Realist
I apologize. If I am to disagree I should have a basis for that disagreement and not blurt out my frustration. I should also have not singled anyone out. I again apologize. As to coming late to this dusscussion, I have monitored the Post Game Take from the beginning. My entry into it about midway can be attributed to the lack of viable contribution I felt I could make due to the insight of the many previous comments. Once I did, well, we see the result. I should perhaps remain on the sideline of the most insightful discussion (Raider Take)on the team that I love, until I have something more than "He took my answer" to contribute.
What I don't see is a plan or a blueprint. Until this internal power struggle is resolved things will not change.
RT: Regarding the Sporting News report that..."Gabriel has had his issues with dropped passes and a costly fumble that has cost him playing time..," and a roster spot on the Pats, seems to me we have a so-called #1 receiver on our team who has had similar issues. Just a thought.
Why, yes of course, Anno... Why didn't I see it before. Whitted is one of Davis' "boys." That's why he has been a starter since he came to this team. I forgot that Al Davis only selects the players you don't like.
Whitted has been with this team for several years. While he is definately not a starter under normal circumstances, he works very hard and he has value as a deep threat.
Get a clue, Anno. Also, learn to debate people without making it personal.
memdf-
I understand your frustration. None of us saw 2-11 coming. That 4-0 start to the pre-season gave us a lot of false hope. Hopefully this season has opened eyes in the front office and they'll make the necessary moves so we can have a better season next year.
Don't shy away from sharing your ideas about the team. You're among fellow fans who are just as passionate about the team. Maybe someone in the front office will read some of this and act on it. Fat chance of that happening, but there is always hope. Even in this long and dreary season that has been the 2006 edition of Raiderfootball.
Who do you like in the upcoming draft? If we get the second pick overall(that's if we win more of the remaining games than Detroit) what would you do with it? Keep it and fill a top priority need or trade out and get more picks?
memdf and PeterFlemming, welcome aboard. It gets heated here sometimes, but ultimately we're all brothers (and sisters, I supose) just tryin' to figure things out.
Hot off the presses. The Raiders reclaimed Gabriel. So - they get a fifth round draft pick and they get Gabriel back. Hmmm...
BR: Nice! If that's true (and I have no reason to doubt you) that's about the best news we've had in an otherwise dismal season. Gabriel is a team player, like Whitted, and will provide the Raiders a nice option at WR while we dump Porter and Moss (or at least their attitudes).
We just regained depth at WR (along with the Pats 5th round pick), and it's not even draft day.
Perhaps equally compelling, the lights are actually on in the executive offices. Question: Does the expeditious nature of such a seemingly smart move put a monkey wrench in some "mole theories" being tossed around???
NYRaider:
I never thought the trading of Gabriel had anything to do with a mole. That's PR's gig, but I can understand where it comes from. As I've stated above, I think that decision came from Biletnicoff.
The mole/Lombardi thing to me is just a sign of no clear chain of authority when Davis is using less control. I think that issue will be resoved very quickly in the off season. I would, however, like to hear Tim Brown expound on why he thinks Lombardi is the reason coaches/players don't want to come here.
Personnally, I think that rumor, that staff and personnel don't want to come to Oakland, is way overblown by the press. I think that last February, Davis wanted to bring back Shell and Lombardi wanted Patrino, or someone else who was close to Lombardi. Davis, not surprisingly, won that battle. I think after that, Lombardi probably spent a lot of time grousing about it to his friends in the media, and it got back to Shell.
blanda.... whitted has been with the team and why???? he wouldn't even be in the league if it wasn't for us,how many times at cut time have we all said " this must be the year he goes,just no room for someone who just runs fast" ??? but still he is on the starting roster every year and now that art is here and starts who AL wants,whitted is starting,what a suprise..... you say he deserves to start because he works hard,gee,if thats all it takes then i can be a starter, i can work hard and run. he has no talent,watching the bengal game and they had an iso on whitted trying to do an up and out,the defender didn't bite because the fake was sooo bad...you could look into whitted's eyes and there was no disguise in his cuts, looked like a guy that doesn't know how to run routes...really,he doesn't belong on the roster but why is he starting??? james jett ring a bell??? he was another that Al fell in love with because of speed but was a terrible wr.... you see,i have watched this team for over 30 years,i know how it goes and what types Al likes and if Al likes you,you make the team...this can be the only explanation for why whitted is still on this team,if he was cut today i bet there would be NO takers.
PantyRaider,
I hope you're not trying to compare Whitted, & Jett, to the great Cliff Branch.
It's true that Branch started out as just a speed guy. But Cliff worked hard to develop good route running, and fine hands. In other words, he became a total football player.
While it's true you cannot teach speed, it's also true that speed alone does not make one a football player.
We as fans suffered for years waiting for Jett to show promise. It never happened.
Now we suffer with Whitted. And a word of caution. The Raiders currently have a track star named Leo Bookman on their practice squad. They are trying to make a WR out of him, so I fear we will be suffering again.
That's part of the problem with the Raiders today. They have certain formulas that used to work, that they keep trying, only it appears they no longer are working.
It was great that they turned Branch from a speed guy into an all around great wideout, but that was a long time ago, and they havn't been able to do it again.
It was outstanding to rescue Jim Plunkett fron the scrap heap, but how many bums have they gone through hopelessly searching for another.
Maybe it's time to turn the page a little, and try some new/different idea's.
Here's my speculative theory on the Gabriel trade(take it for what it's worth which is probably 2 cents at best):
I think Shell liked Gabriel and intended to use him as the #2 WR for 06.
I think Lombardi convinced Al to trade Gabriel. He persuaded Al that we were deep at WR which at the time we were (Moss, Porter, Curry, Morant, Whitted)
I think that with the trade of Gabriel in combination with Porter's status with Shell, it created an opportunity for Al to reward his "boy" Whitted. Al told Shell to start Whitted.
I think when Gabriel was released, Shell lobbied hard to get him back. Considering the current uncertainty and lack of productivity at WR, it wasn't a hard sale to close.
I don't buy into the theory that Biletnekof had any involvement in Gabriel getting traded. Why would he? Gabriel was a hard working, productive, team-first player.
hey panty if you don't remember,moss was supposed to be our "branch"...yes i remember #21 well and he ran good routes and he had the ability to make the tough catches,whitted has none of that. moss is branch and curry should have been our belitnekoff,or even porter,a possesion type wr. collins was supposed to be our lamonica..look at the older players,they were special and they played special,the players we get now are short on character and skill BIG DIFFERENCE... like raider00 said,the formulas that we are using don't work,we need to move into todays game....
if you can't beatem..beatem up???? you can't change what todays players are,you have to adapt to it,you have to change with it or you get left behind ... everyone wants that OLD RAIDER WAY so bad that they will continue to fight against things that you can't change.... isn't that a scripture from the bible???? have the ability to accept what you can't change????? it is the way of the world you can't change it,if you want to blow all the energy on trying to conform players....nahhh,that ain't right.
CJ: The Gabriel trade never made sense. The depth wasn't there and I don't think Al would buy into it, yet he was traded. Remember, Porter was already in the doghouse, Curry was a "rehab-in-progress," and Morant has been a ghost on this roster all season.
That leaves Moss and Whitted. Ouch! It does smell like a desperate attempt by somebody to get Whitted on the field. To me, that further exemplifies the lack of communication between our coach and player personnel executives, be it Lombardi or Al or whomever. It was a bad decision, period!
oh panty...... we aren't talking about your kids or some dumb kid out of college.... we are talking about players that are making millions,way more than the coach,they have more pull within an organization than the coaches now....you have to adapt to that,get it??? you can't make these guys into something they don't want,you have to make it attractive to them,keep them interested.... you can't dominate them and try to buffalo them,you need to treat them different today...... . dealing with my kids,yes i CAN CHANGE IT,don't worry about that,you can't compare the 2 ,not even close.... would i be able to buffalo an athlete that is making millions and is coddled by the owner???? no freakin way...you can't change that ,so what do you do??? you adapt to it and make it an advantage not a negative.
panty,do we really need the labeling and cliche's??? how do you come to the conclusion i'm dark and gloomy?/? because my view is different than yours?? you want the smash mouth team,then draft smashmouth players that have character..set them up with coaching that they can respect..again,why is it we don't have those players ?// who's in charge???why is it we have mediocre coaching?//who's in charge???look,you can't have a good team with players who recognize problems within the organization,they lose respect.... did you watch the last game panty??? the team was going through the motions... is it ALL the players that are a cancer??? or is it they recognize poor coaching and a dysfunctional organization?//.. they lose respect..they lose desire..do you notice that kids in a dysfunctional home don't usually do as well as kids from a well run home???? art is part of the dysfunction,his methods don't work,he can't relate to todays players so he trys to buffalo...players lose respect......
Hey Pantyraider
Are you going to add X-games, skydiving and bungee jumping to your repertoire before you turn 60?! You're the first person I've heard of that rides bulls and goes sailing.
Pantyraider...renaissance man!
oh panty,more rhetoric than facts.... i'm not dark and gloomy..it's called telling the truth,if you need to be in fantasy land to cope then that is your problem.... you think that by seeing what you want to see as being a "sunshine" then go ahead.. i look at what is happening,draw a conclusion and come down to what is needed to make this team better,funny how your positive outlook has nothing to back it up except bringing up how all this used to work in the day... you say i'm a hater and a basher and mr negative,blah blah blah...look at the truth,you live in fantasy and that is where you will stay,not being able to evaluate without a ray of sunshine coming out of your ass will make you fail everytime..... look at what it is,i just write what it is and you can't handle it,so you label and degrade and fly with the cliches,sorry bud,in the REAL WORLD,that doesn't get it done....you go ahead and think art is the right direction and blah blah ..... i will continue to see it for what it is,not make believe to try and cope with a 2-14 team that has been a disgrace for 4 SEASONS...... wake up son,clear your eyes,you can't fix something if you look at it with blind loyalty ... you think that this is what helps,you are part of the problem,total denial and this organization has been in it for at least 4 years and it is a major problem,that is not bashing,it is stating a fact. one day you will figure it out...
damn panty,you need help..everything is a conspiricy to you,ever heard of being paranoid??? you are for sure the most paranoid person on here....no,you are wrong,i speak for myself and i don't pose as someone else or try to make out like i am someone else... your fantasy world must be quite the place to visit,come to think of it,you pulled me into it and it sucks.
hey panty,ever heard of the group called the KINKS ?? paranoia will destroy ya..... sorry,i'm not one of your imaginary dreams,i stand alone,don't need to pose,thank you...
let's see,it starts with art not making adjustments at half time...not knowing when to throw the red flag... playing players like whitted and leaving players such as curry on the bench....playing brooks instead of putting walter in there to gain experience... for hiring tom walsh and sticking with him until Al makes him step down....for benching players for speaking out,porter and walter and letting moss say whatever the hell he wants and STILL PLAYS.. after benching players for speaking to the press,art himself speaks out about a mole and then is asked if he has spoken to the mole and he replies"not yet but if it continues i will"... his same 2 lines every weeks post game comments" we have to make plays, i don't know why we aren't"... the fact that he gets outcoached every sunday.... i'm sure there is more but i think you must get the point...
"smellypanty" thinks that there is a country that has a population of faida fanatics, "faida take" is also a citizen of the "nation". How about you fanatics? Are you citizens of the "faida nation"? If you are when is the next census due? maybe we can get an accurate count on just how many BUFFOONS are living in your "nation". Just buy the P-Shirt baby. 2-14. Watch the RAMS BI-ATCH slap the faidas on the "faidio" ....
I'm going to leave that one up as a testament to your special talent. Very special, in the way that people get sent to special classrooms. Poor little DaBrick2 in San Leandro, a small little person hated even by his own family, locked up in his bedbroom, dedicating his life to flaming blogs with infantile puns, hiding behind his supposed anonymity and afraid to create a Blogger account. The joke is on you, and all the time you spend here, only to be laughed at.
This comment if from PantyRaider (sorry, Panty Raider, I had to move your take):
Annous:
Granted there were some mistakes made early on....and nobody debates those issues...we all saw that as mistakes....but as far as the Walsh "OC" thing...where is your inside info as to who said to do what....it is just speculation and may be totally wrong...with the "OC" change what has been the result....not much but I do see a little...but with the same outcome....As far as "SpeakingOut" it depends on what you term acceptable....Moss is a "Mouth" and will always be but is it "Malicious"....we just don't know all the facts about this issue to make a reliable judgment...so the Shell supportes like myself will give him the benifits of the dought over a player like Porter who has been a problem before...but the Shell haters will decide against him and support a player over the coaches...this just depends on where you are coming from....An as for going to the "Mediot"s Shell only talks about the subject that went to the "Mediot"s from the players or the "Mole"....Shell does not take any other matters to the "Mediot"s....And as for his same 2 lines every week...you must have hated Gruden because every week he said "We have to tighten it up"....every week but it did not make any improvement on the "O" until Gannon came 2 years later.....and there are so many other coaches you must hate because thay all have their little avoidance speach that they use...over and over again.....So it is apparent that you are on a ArtShell "HateTrip" but I question when did it begain...it began with the stupid "Mediot"s as soon as Shell was hired...before he ever walked on the field....and it came from the "Mole" the same way....so when did youe begain.....
PantyRaider...JustAskin!!!
art was saying all year it wasn't walsh's fault for the poor offense,he kept standing up for him and then after the next game he gets sat down.. art's loyalty to walsh is very well known,art's not fond of shoop and that is well known... you tell me,does it look like an art move??? i don't hat art shell,he is a great Raider..as a player,not as a HC.i want to see what is best FOR THE RAIDERS,not former players and not Al Davis.. i want what is best for the organization and with art as HC and Al making all the important decisions,to me,it is not what is best for the Raiders to move on and become great once again.... you talk about moss..if you don't think that his words of being done with the Raiders because he wants OUT are worse than porter going face to face with art at a mini camp and walter hinting that the play calling could be better,again,how can you argue with someone who thinks that...moss quit on this team day 1 and you still write that we can't judge him..bull shyt,you want to talk cancer,then he is the main offender.you say porter has been a problem before.. do you not remeber the national interview with moss and his long pause after being asked about norv being the HC???then moss comes out before this year and says somethings fishy before the season started.. and after the last game last year against the giants the team had a meeting in the dressing room after the game and moss was gone didn't even stick around for the meeting and you say we can't make a judgement???? as far as shell's post game comments,yes i know other coaches use standard answers but art looks completely deflated and you can see he really doesn't have the answers.. just because alot of Raider fans don't think that art doesn't make it as a HC you go and label them haters... well i guess we can call you a WINS HATER because you don't seem to care about that...all you care about is conspiracies and wondering who is stabbing who in the back...gee,sounds just like art...bottom line is and you will figure it out once it is on your lap,we can't win with our current arrangment,this is not because of what the hacks are writing,it is because it is plain as day....if you live in the past,you fail in the present..
whatever,never said the coaches need to conform to the players,i'm trying to make you understand that you can't buffalo players today... is that good enough??? it isn't like back in the day when you could make it a boot camp,it is different today,understand that,seems to me you are the one that wants to conform them into what they aren't..... like i said ,what relevence does it have for you to know what sports i played????
the reason why there is a bad attitude throughout the organization is because of POOR LEADERSHIP..any organization that is tight and successful ALWAYS HAS GREAT LEADERSHIP..this organization obviously is lacking in leadership..you keep blaming everyone else but the person who is most responsible,it starts at the top son,like i say,you'll see it soon enough because it is showing itself more and more with each passing week... it will get to the point where even the most diehard deniers won't be able to deny it and then you can write to me and say how wrong you were.....
you is one weird dude buddy,good luck,hope everything works out for you.
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