Cavemen and Crackpots
Five of the last six Raiders head coaches will never, or should never, be named a head coach in the NFL again. These five are: White, Bugel, Callahan, Turner and Shell. I don’t need to explain the first three. It’s possible that an NFL team might tap Turner at a future date, but I seriously doubt it, as it’s been amply demonstrated that he is not head coaching material. As for Art Shell, he’s been a head coach once in the past 12 years, a gig that lasted one year and ended with two victories. He will never be a head coach in the NFL again (I’m not being disrespectful to Art Shell, I’m just stating a fact).
In other words, the Raiders have a rather sad track record of selecting head coaches over the past 12 years, when you consider that five out of their last six coaches will never again be named a head coach in the NFL by any of the 31 other teams in the league. Even Dick Jauron got a head coaching gig after failing with the Bears, as did Dave Wannstedt. But not five out of the last six Raiders coaches. It’s really quite remarkable.
In an earlier take, I said that the margin for error is razor thin for the Raiders at this point. Mistakes are not an option, not after 15 total victories and three head coaches over the past four seasons. A lot of mistakes have been made over this period. We now have no choice but to be utterly brilliant.
I would like to pen a nice elegy for Art Shell, but I don’t really have time. Typically, I’m pretty sentimental when it comes to the Oakland Raiders, but the time to get down to business is yesterday. No more dragging our feet like last year. I will just say that Art Shell is a class act. I’m glad he’ll remain in the Raider Nation family. I feel sorry for him, and I wish him the best, both personally and professionally. He gave it his all, but it just wasn’t enough.
It’s possible that Mr. Davis might already know who will replace Art Shell. If he does, I hope he announces it soon. If he doesn’t, then things will get very interesting, and we will have a lot of fun with it.
Remind me once again about the knock on Mike Martz? Yes, I know he had a reputation for being a bit crazy, and that he had a temporary health issue two seasons ago. But what’s the real knock on the guy? I’m sure someone out there can explain. Here’s what I wrote last January: “If what we’ve heard is true, Mike Martz might be a bit of a crackpot. However, that would make him a crackpot with 53-32 record and a Super Bowl appearance under his belt, and a top 10 ranking in total offensive yardage in each of his 5+ seasons in St. Louis.”
The idea of Rob “Caveman” Ryan as head coach is intriguing. After all, how many NFL head coaches sleep on bamboo sticks and eat raw meat for breakfast? If he’s tapped for the job, maybe we could lure his twin brother from the Ravens to take his place at DC? Tom Flores wasn’t exactly Mr. Personality (sorry Tom), but John Madden and Jon Gruden were both charismatic and demonstrative, in stark contrast to White, Bugel, Callahan, Turner and Shell. That might be a shallow perspective, but there might be something to it, and if there is, then Rob Ryan fits the bill.
Anyhow, there is much more to come. For now, a new day dawns in the Raider Nation.
In other words, the Raiders have a rather sad track record of selecting head coaches over the past 12 years, when you consider that five out of their last six coaches will never again be named a head coach in the NFL by any of the 31 other teams in the league. Even Dick Jauron got a head coaching gig after failing with the Bears, as did Dave Wannstedt. But not five out of the last six Raiders coaches. It’s really quite remarkable.
In an earlier take, I said that the margin for error is razor thin for the Raiders at this point. Mistakes are not an option, not after 15 total victories and three head coaches over the past four seasons. A lot of mistakes have been made over this period. We now have no choice but to be utterly brilliant.
I would like to pen a nice elegy for Art Shell, but I don’t really have time. Typically, I’m pretty sentimental when it comes to the Oakland Raiders, but the time to get down to business is yesterday. No more dragging our feet like last year. I will just say that Art Shell is a class act. I’m glad he’ll remain in the Raider Nation family. I feel sorry for him, and I wish him the best, both personally and professionally. He gave it his all, but it just wasn’t enough.
It’s possible that Mr. Davis might already know who will replace Art Shell. If he does, I hope he announces it soon. If he doesn’t, then things will get very interesting, and we will have a lot of fun with it.
Remind me once again about the knock on Mike Martz? Yes, I know he had a reputation for being a bit crazy, and that he had a temporary health issue two seasons ago. But what’s the real knock on the guy? I’m sure someone out there can explain. Here’s what I wrote last January: “If what we’ve heard is true, Mike Martz might be a bit of a crackpot. However, that would make him a crackpot with 53-32 record and a Super Bowl appearance under his belt, and a top 10 ranking in total offensive yardage in each of his 5+ seasons in St. Louis.”
The idea of Rob “Caveman” Ryan as head coach is intriguing. After all, how many NFL head coaches sleep on bamboo sticks and eat raw meat for breakfast? If he’s tapped for the job, maybe we could lure his twin brother from the Ravens to take his place at DC? Tom Flores wasn’t exactly Mr. Personality (sorry Tom), but John Madden and Jon Gruden were both charismatic and demonstrative, in stark contrast to White, Bugel, Callahan, Turner and Shell. That might be a shallow perspective, but there might be something to it, and if there is, then Rob Ryan fits the bill.
Anyhow, there is much more to come. For now, a new day dawns in the Raider Nation.
posted by Raider Take at 7:53 AM
104 Comments:
I said it in the last post, and I will reiterate it here again. Rob Ryan and John Madden are having VERY SIMILAR CAREERS! I'm wondering if Shell was brought in to polish Ryan a little more, the way John Rauch did with Madden.
You should read Ryan's impressive Bio on the Raiders website. Click on "The Team" tab, then "Coaches," then on his name. IMPRESSIVE! Even more so, he was a Running Backs coach on the collegiate level at one point.
Then compare his Bio with Madden found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Madden_%28football%29#Career_as_a_coach
This is just plain eerie, and has given me goose bumps. I seriously feel if we hire someone else, we will lose Rob Ryan somewhere else, and soon.
ryan has stated he doesn't want the hc job..... he has seen what the hc on this team goes through...the players not getting behind the coach and Al listening to the players and undermining the hc's authority,who would want that job????.....who will risk coming here?? who will risk ,if you are a first time hc,coming to a job that is just slaughtering hc's left and right??? who would want to put a big dent in their career by coming here and working in a dysfunctional set up??? the only way we get a GOOD hc is if Al sells to the new candidate that he will NO LONGER BE INVOLVED,THAT HE WILL GIVE THE REIGNS TO THE NEW GUY AND LET HIM RUN WITH IT WITHOUT AL COMING IN AND UNDERMINING. this is the only way,the jig is up on Al,the whole football world knows what happens here and how it is NOT condusive to winning. .... what are the odds of this happening???? i don't know ,all i know is it is up to Al to finally come to the realization that his form of running a nfl football team doesn't work.....
Anon:
when/where did Ryan say he doesn't want the job?
We all recognize Jerry McDonald as a pretty good authority on the Raiders. He reported href=“http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_4954987"> in this article today, “Ryan has emotion and fire, unlike the stoic Shell. It's said that Shell's lack of expression was a problem with Davis the first time around, and if that is the case, 14 losses no doubt made it even more problematic.
Besides, Ryan looks the part of Raiders coach, with his imposing size, long hair and unkempt sideline wardrobe.
Most important, he wants the job.”
Sorry, my html tag skills need some work.
We need to hire Ryan yesterday. Of course we have to interview a minority candidate first but right after that we should hire Ryan. I want this done before the SB.
Roy
While ano continues his anti-Al crusade, let's consider the choices for HC.
Ryan - A good choice for team moral and defense, but what are his offense credentials? Offense is where we have the problem. If we are to draft someone like Russell, it is imperative to have a coach who can bring a young QB along.
Martz - Excellent offensive mind. Detroit's offense wasn't bad. But Martz has heart trouble, and I'm not certain that he could handle the stress created by a team in this position. He is also another retread.
Whisenhunt - Already turned down the job once, and he's the likely replacement for Cowher in Pit.
Green - He wants full authority, and Davis isn't likely to give it just yet. And Green was terrible in Arizona. And he's another retread.
Cam Cameron - I'd like to see this man interviewed. He ran the most impressive offense in the league this year, we'd stick it to our rival, and he did a great job of bringing along Rivers.
Petrino - Likely to remain at LSU.
Mariucci - The one retread that I wouldn't mind seeing interviewed. He didn't succeed in Detroit, but nobody succeeds in Detroit. Take a look at his record with SF sometime.
Tice - Retread. Very spotty record.
Norm Chow - I'm not sure about Chow. Don't know enough about him.
Tedford - Please, God, no! Washed out in SF and his last season here, he went 4-12.
Cowher - I believe that he'll take a year off before accepting another job, if he doesn't become a broadcaster.
These, of the currently known candidates for HC jobs, are the only ones who I think the Raiders should consider. Parcells, if he becomes available, but Parcells is rather mercenary. If Al were to give him some portion of an interest in the Raiders, which would inspire him to stick with the organization long term, he'd be an admirable choice.
Of these, above, my choice would be, in order, Cam Cameron, Steve Mariucci, or Rob Ryan. If Ryan, then who we hire as OC is critical.
Mistake, mistake. Above, where I said Tedford, I meant Trestman. I'd like to see Tedford interviewed.
I don't understand Marc Trestman's name being floated.
Didn't Al's little baby players on offense hate him too ??
Anyway, if it's an indication that the Raiders will be moving toward more of a west coast style, I'm all for that.
I agree with Blandarocked. I love Ryan, but this team needs an offensive brain,(along with talented players).
If you've read my blogs from back in November, I already was wishing for Steve Mariucci.
But something in my gut is telling me Ken Whisenhunt will be the one.
We'll see.
BR-Ryan does have some Offensive coaching experience (5 years at Tennessee State). I agree with you that they are going to need a good OC with him at coach, which is where I'm suggesting Dennis Green; as well as making him Assistant Coach.
If Norm Chow leaves the Titans, it will be for a Head Coaching position; and he would work well in Oakland too. He did a solid job working with Carson Palmer, Matt Leinart, Reggie Bush, and LenDale White while at USC; not too mention what he's done with the Titans offense. More than likely though, he will be a future HC at USC after Carroll abandons ship.
The only way I can see drafting a QB is if we trade up our second rounder, for a lower first rounder, and pick a RB like Pittman. I've heard a lot of good things about Lynch at Berk"weed", but haven't really seen him in action living here in Austin. I know I'm a broken record on this, but RB is more vital for us right now.
I'd make a suggestion to Al Davis. It seems to me that the reason the Raiders made a successful transition with HC between Gruden's last year and Calihan's first year was that when Gruden was traded, Calihan was immediately named interim HC. Therefore the Raiders were not without an HC during the interview process, and it allowed the Raiders to wait for the end of the playoffs to interview coaches from playoff teams.
As state previously, my first choice would be Cam Cameron. But we can't interview, or even discuss him, until SD has finished the season.
Name Rob Ryan as interim headcoach. That position will not be unmanned through the interview process, stretching through to February. If we find no other suitable candidates, Ryan will already be in place, and able to hit the ground running.
br.... i may be anti Al,but you are just a propaganda machine that spews out whatever you think SOUNDS right...where as i am just right...ever since i have been reading your posts,you are never right about anything unless you call spewing propaganda right...i would rather see the truth than try to convince others what you think the truth should be,big difference,you will find that out ONE day. the truth is Al has to let go in order for this franchise to move forward and this is a fact that has been provin over the last 20 years.... until that point is reached then we will remain at where we are,plain and simple. a coach worth his salt will not come here and work under Al's current arrangment.... do you think that parcells would even consider coming here after just spending a year with T>O>??? no way,just another one of your fantasies that have no basis for truth. when you can get something right about the raiders,then maybe you can act like you are an authority on the team,until then ,you are just another cheerleading ,propaganda spewing wannabe. if you don't want me to write these posts to you,then show me a little respect for what i am writing because i am usually correct in what I write,your track record isn't even in the ball park.
NYRaider,
Let me cover two things from your earlier post.
You say Whisenhunt has better options than Oakland. I disagree.
Pittsburgh, where Cowher set the bar very, very, high. Tough act to follow. More bad can happen, than good.
Miami, aging defense, and not much going for them on offense either. Joey Harrington ?? Good luck.
Atlanta, job comes with Vick, an eratic, hybrid QB/RB. Holes on the D too.
Also, Al Davis is not a distraction. It all depends on your point of view.
Do you think Rob Ryan see's Davis as a distraction ? Of course not. Because Al provided him with excellent young talent, and helped him shape the defense.
Al's problem has been drafting poorly on the offense side of the ball, and in sticking with a bombs away style that seems not to work anymore. That is not a distraction, but, I will admit, mistakes that have set the Raiders back, along with poor HC choices, as RT pointed out in his take.
Remember, this will be Whisenhunt's first HC job. The Raiders are sitting with the first pick, already have a good defense, and have no where to go but up.
I think the Raiders job is going to look very good to a lot of people this time around. We just have to hope Al picks the right person this time.
Frankly, Ano, I don't care what you write.
can anyone tell me why whisenhunt's name is even being mentioned by some of you???hello,mcfly.....the guy came here for an interview last year and lasted about 3 hrs before he was back on a plane to pittsburgh.....Al then offered the job to petrino who turned it down and all that was left was art.... why would whisenheunt come here now???? tell me,because we have the first pick overall??? god,it really boggles the mind on what some of you write. whisenhunt won't even sniff or get a sniff,same with parcells,same with jimmy johnson,please put these names to rest...as far as trestman,gees,the guy stinks at the college level,why in the hell would anyone want him back..remember all those times gannon walking to the sidelines chewing his ass out??? as far as callahan taking this team farther when he coached..he was just riding the coatails of a team already established with some great leadership from the players..the players took that team to the bowl,when callahan actually had to coach in the super bowl,he fell flat. norv turner was wanted by NOBODY to be a hc,Al had his leverage by making him the hc,same with art. Al has to write it in stone that he will no longer be the main man running this team if he is to attract a good hc. and if anyone says that it is not Al who has the final say in just about everything that goes on within the team,you don't know the Raiders. it has been since Al took over this team and if it continues it will be the same ole stuff,mark it down.
br,if you don't care what i write then why do you respond to it??? just another example of what you write not making any sense. you are wrong 90% of the time...the proof is in the pudding and your pudding is tasting a little off. it's the same with Al,his track record over the last 20 years speaks for itself. the same can be said for your posts,your track record speaks for itself.
I had another thought, if Ryan is named HC. Tedford as OC, and bring in Rich Gannon as QB coach. Don't know if Gannon would even consider it, but it's been said by many that he'd make an excellent coach. Perhaps if it was suggested to him that after someone tapped Tedford to be HC somewhere, he'd become OC.
I must agree that I can't imagine Whisenhunt taking the job. Trestman??? If we hire Trestman to be the ball boy, it's a mistake.
Raider Nate 75: You must have been reading my mind. I definitely would like to promote Ryan and then hire Green as the OC/assistant head coach. He would balance out Ryans inexperience and install a modern offense while allowing us to keep Moss. If we trade him, we wont get value.
Not sure why so many are big on Mariucci. I thought SF hired him prematuraly. He went 6-6 with Cal and inherited a decent SF team which he didn't do much with. Sure he went to the playoffs but the niners always went to the playoffs. Siefert got fired after going 12-4. So put me down for hell no to Mariucci.
Roy
Raider00: I agree, we have much more to offer a new HC this year. In his mind, Whisenhunt probably already knows whether or not he would accept the Raiders HC post, based on last year’s interview process and what he’s seen this year. That may be to our advantage, or disadvantage. However, I wouldn’t assume Whisenhunt is too afraid of failure to take one of the other available posts.
With the revolving door at HC, maybe the Raiders should start their own reality tv show. Instead of “The Apprentice,” we can call it “The Head Coach,” or maybe just “Head Coach For Hire.” In addition to our standard set of Raider-embossed matching steak knives, our new coach will win a solid defensive unit (dare I say possibly two or three players away from elite) and the first pick in the NFL draft. No doubt, sweet rewards for any coaching prospect. Then, if he (or she) fails, we can just start over again next year.
Anon,(please pick a tag. How about Mcfly ?).
Why would you assume that the interview with Whisenhunt went badly ??
None of us know what went on behind the closed doors.
Perhaps Al offered him the job, but Whisenhunt said he wasn't ready yet. Who knows !!
Point is, Al Davis had his eye on Gruden before hiring Bugalboy, than one terrible year later, reversed himself.
Same thing can happen again. All I know is, if Whisenhunt is smart, and I believe he is, he'll take a good, long look at the Raiders job again.
IMO, it's the best job available, with the quickest turn around potential(top pick, good D, and up, the only direction).
One tidbit regarding Petrino, from Wikipedia: "On July 13, 2006, Petrino signed a 10 year - 25.5 million dollar contract with Louisville to stay on as its head football coach. The deal immediately gives Petrino a raise from $1 million to $1.6 million annually and he will be paid $2.6 million in the final year of the deal. The contract is an effort by the university to put an end to the annual wooing of its football coach."
25 million dollars would be tough to leave on the table, unless Mr. Davis drives a dumptruck full of greenery to Kentucky.
raider00..... if you fly across the country after just winning the super bowl and you leave 3 hrs later and then Al offers the job to petrino.. ahhhhhh look at it,think,what does it tell you??? he wasn't interested and Al wasn't interested....why would someone fly across the country to tell Al he wasn't ready??? does he not have a phone???????????? can you look at something,read into the facts and see what is going on???? thats like saying oj didn't do it,how do we really know???? look at the facts,they will tell you what is up. sorry if you cannot figure it out,but anyone who can put 2 and 2 together can.
PantyRaider:
If what you say is true, that would indicate to me that he's talked to Jeff Tedford. He's never coached in the pros, at least to my knowledge. He likes the verticle game, and he's an excellent developer of QBs.
Anon,
Your stating facts that everyone already know.
Whisenhunt didn't take the job last year. We know.
What we don't know, is WHY Whisenhunt didn't take the job, although you seem to think you know.
All I am saying is, the Raiders job is a lot more attractive this year, and don't be surpised if Whisenhunt's name surfaces again, or if he is even interviewed again.
I would imagine a sharp guy would be more interested this time around.
Also, I am not saying Whisenhunt is my # one choice. Names like Tedford, Mariucci, and Petrino, interest me as well.
I just don't want a retread like Fassel, which would be a disaster.
Just have an open mind, that's all.
Panty, Tedford is the UC Berkeley HC.
azraider63
My guess on the vacancies:
Miami - Cam Cameron (Cameron is scheduled to interview with Miami this weekend. He also is interviewing with Arizona on Saturday and Atlanta on Sunday)
Sidenote: Cameron was considered by Al last year but declined the meeting.
Atlanta - The Wiz (Whisenhunt is from Atlanta, went to GTech, and played 4 years as TE for the Falcons)
Pittsburgh - Russ Grimm (keep it in house)
Arizona - Ron Rivera (leading candidate)
And last but not least, drum roll please....my up to the minute Raiders predictions:
HC - Rob Ryan
OC - Steve Sarkisian
DC - Rod Martindale
Steve Sarkisian fits the profile of what Al loves. Here is quick run down on Sark.
1995-96: QB at BYU
1997-99: QB in CFL
2000: QB coach at El Camino JC
2001: USC asst. coach
2002-3: USC QB coach
2004: Raiders QB Coach
2005-Present: USC Asst Head Coach
My short list of candidates;
Denny Green (OC or HC); Mike Martz (HC), Jeff Tedford (HC); Bobby Petrino (HC)
I spoke with the guys at Geico. Rob Ryan's "caveman" status should qualify him as a minority.
League requirement met.
Call Rex. It's go time.
Calico:
Nice take. One thing I don't understand is Cameron interviewing in Miami when the bolts are in the playoffs. SD might have given Miami permission to talk to him, but it seems odd that he'd fly across the country during playoff prep.
Also, just because he declined the interview last year, it could have been that he had inside info that he wasn't going to be the choice and didn't want to go through the exercise.
I doubt Denny Green for HC (certainly not OC, because I don't think he'd take a demotion - too big of an opinion of himself) unless Davis promised to turn over the team, which is pretty much what he demanded before he took the Arizona job.
I just have this feeling that it's not going to be Ryan. Davis usually prefers offensive minded HCs. I suspect that he'll go the Gruden rout, and find someone who is bright, gaining respect in the league, and young.
Question:
If an organization promotes from within (ie. Ryan) and external candidates are not considered, wouldn't this be an exception to the 'interviewing minorities' mandate?
BR - Franchises with QB vacancies are allowed to interview Cam up until this Sun. evening. (I picked this up from Fox' Ben Maller).
I realize that many folks are discounting Green as a viable, legitimate candidate but I'm not one of them. (my blog outlines some of my points on Green's upside)
One more wild prediction, just for fun:
Al is known for taking a chance or blazing an unmarked trail on HCs. Whether it was a young, inexperienced Madden or Gruden or minorites like Shell or Flores. With that said, Al shocks the world and names 32 year old Steve Sarkisian the new Raiders HC.
Calico:
That's a good question that I had considered myself. I have no specific information, but I think what you say may well be true. This might be considered a promotion, and not a hire.
Al could be cute, and call Willie Brown into his office and talk to him for 15 minutes, but Al, rightfully, takes these things seriously.
Calico:
Re Sarkisian. Good call. I think it far more likely, based on Al's history, than bringing in Green.
Calico,
Is that true, that Sarkisian has never been a coordinator at either the college, or pro level ?
Sounds a little risky, no ?
Raider00:
I think Sark's function at USC (Assistant Head Coach) is as OC. His style also comports with what Al likes. Al loves to pull people and players from USC, and this fits with the ESPN Radio rumor that PantyRaider heard.
It is just possible that Calico, brilliantly, put his finger on it.
In his five full seasons as the Rams head coach, Martz made the playoffs four times, went to the Super Bowl, enjoyed seasons of 10, 14 and 12 wins and oversaw a brutally prolific offense that ranked in the top 10 each year. Say what you will about the guy, but he doesn't seem to have lacked the ultimate measure of coaching ability, which is RESULTS. Why is he radioactive?
I'm not saying Martz is the second coming of Vince Lombardi, but he's got to be considered over guys like Trestman, Fassel and Mariucci, right? He's a bit cocky and quirky, but he can chew ass and back it up with brains and a pretty solid track record. There's a reason why Jerry Porter said last spring he wished the Raiders had hired him over Shell (not that Porter wasn't a punk for saying so).
Martz left his sixth season with an infection of the heart. I don't think that's a "heart problem" in the scarier sense of the term.
RT:
I don't have anything against Martz. But I do doubt that Davis will go in that direction. Davis likes to get coaches on the cheap, at least until they've proven themselves with the Raiders. I think Martz would ask for more money than Davis is willing to give. I think he'd only shell out that kind of money for someone who was going to be with the team beyond coaching.
The more I think about it, the more I think that Calico's shot in the dark about Sarkisian hit the bullseye. He's only had one year with an NFL team (the Raiders). He's never been a Head Coach. But he's coached two QBs to a Heisman, and if the Raiders draft a rookie QB, we're going to need that.
He's 32 years old. Davis likes to go very young when he's not promoting from within, but even then he's shown that tendency. He likes young coaches who are just starting to show up on the NFL radar. Think Madden and Gruden. That way he gets to show how brilliant he is by being the first one to spot a major talent.
Plus, Sarkisian has been at USC, where Davis loves to draw from. I think the Raiders have drafted more players out of USC than any other school.
I also think that Davis is looking for a coach to be around for at least a decade, with the possibility of the coach eventually moving up to the front office. Since Sarkisian is only 32, he fits that bill. Davis likes to look for people who remind him of himself, and I think that was his attraction to Gruden.
I don't think Whisenhunt will be an option, unless he isn't Pittsburg's first choice. And if the Steelers choose Grimm or someone else over him, doesn't that raise a red flag? If you're Whisenhunt I think Pittsburg is the first choice. At this point, based on organizational stability and talent, they are better prepared to go into the playoffs next year. Long term I think we're the better choice, but with coaches getting on average two years to make a splash you can't fault anyone for taking the safer job.
I don't think guys like Mariucci or Martz would come in as an OC. Martz was one of the last hires as an OC if I remember correctly, and I have a feeling he would prefer to be HC for his next move. I don't think Mariucci would come back for an OC position either.
I like Tedford, Petrino, etc, but college coaches have a poor track record of success in the pros. I don't doubt Al's ability to evaluate young coaches, but I wouldn't take the chance, especially with our existing personnel problems on offense. Add to that the possibility of losing Ryan and I don't think it's worth it.
That leaves coordinators from other teams, and pretty much limits it to offensive coordinators. I'm hoping Al is able to talk to guys like Cameron before they are locked down for the duration of their team's playoff run so that he makes an early choice. But to be honest, I don't know that there are any coordinators I would trust. Who would have wanted Cameron last year? I've read that Al Saunders doesn't interact with Gibbs, that each runs separate parts of the offense. We don't need another coach with communication issues. Who else is there?
My personal choice is the only defensive coach that I think Ryan would respect, Mike Singletary. Granted, he has no HC experience, but he would have the respect of everyone on both sides of the ball. His ability to lead and communicate is unquestioned, and I don't think anyone would consider him a puppet of Davis. Hire him, bring in a college OC like Sarkisian, and I think we'd have a legitimate shot to turn things around next year. And the side benefit would be that we'd have to get fairer media coverage, because any pundit who tries to apply the same tired lines to Singletary would instantly lose credibility.
Failing that, I think the Ryan / Martindale / Sarkisian team would be the best way to go.
Hmmmn, first Marshawn Lynch says he'll go pro, Al has an aggressive O-coach in mind and Tedford's in the same area code.
Would hurt for Cal but could be interesting for Oakland.
Let's just hope Al bucks the trend here and hires a good HC, it's obvious he has issues evaluating and chosing what this team needs at the position.
Interesting! And I agree with BR that Al will not pay top $$ for a big name HC. However, don't expect anyone who gains any level of success with the Raiders to stick around for 10 years. Just ask Chucky.
Al is no dummy, and I'm sure he learned a thing or two from last year's hiring fiasco. So I believe it's a good guess to think he has something up his sleeve. It might be as simple as hiring Ryan when the right requirements are met or, as Calico Jack prognosticates, Sark (we'll need to change that to Shark or something if he becomes HC). Whatever it is, it’s very possible this is a done deal, we just don’t know it.
For fucks sake.
14 wins in four seasons, 0-12 in the Division, 8 game losing streak, no Head Coach and no Quarterback, 1st overall pick in April's draft - and who is the first guy Al Davis wants to talk too?
Mark fucking Trestman, Mark Trestman, no knock on the guy himself, but for pities sake, what a place to start the search, jesus fucking christ.
Here we go again, as Al Davis hires the an off co before he hires a HC and in the process alienates every possbile quality applicant.
"Hey Bernard, you want another oppurtunity to come coach here?"
"Can i bring my own coaches in?"
"Hell no, you coach with who i tell ya to coach with"
"No thanks Al, and the names Bobby by the way"
After a nine week search last year yielded Art Shell and two wins, Al has started proceedings off again in similiar fashion.
He just will not relinquish any control whatsoever, and you all know it, and you all know what the results are going to be.
Early days, but it will soon be apparent that it's going to be a total fucking farce for two months once again.
The Raiders need bold solutions, and broad strokes, and for Al to get out the fucking way, what we'll get in "settle" compromise solutions, and a patch job of an off season just like last fucking year.
MARK MY WORDS.
Take it for what it is worth (merely speculation) but a reliable source at Raiderworld has mentioned that both Trestman and Gannon were in Alameda today.
His theory is that Ryan will be promoted to HC, Trestman or Sarkisan OC, and Gannon as QB coach.
ghostraider you are funny!
here's something else that's funny.
al davis is doing this ON PURPOSE! look, this old guy knows EXACTLY what he's doing. oh sure he's gonna live with a crappy record and take the bashing from the fans and the press BUT for what?
L.A. baby! that's what all this purposeful losing is for! we fans don't support the team, don't buy tickets or merchandise and BAMMO! he's off to LA in 2011.
now before you guys call me crazy, let's REALLY think about this because it all makes too much sense. why whould a guy who's a former icon in the NFL be considered a senile LOSER now? because he has an ulterior motive THAT'S WHY!
all these years i thought the old geezer was losing it but he damn STILL knows how ot pull a fast one.
yep. hire lousy coaches, allow the inmates to run the asylum, have a losing record, the fans disappear and there you go and off they go to LA.
this is the perfect unsuspecting plan.
Scorpio: Your 'conspiracy theory' has MAJOR holes to it. Even the most ardent Davis haters would find your ideas laughable but not remotely plausible.
- At the age of 77 with his health deteriorating, do you really think Al is thinking about what he will be doing in 2011? Do you think at the age of 82 he will have the energy or motivation to deal with all the headaches associated with moving the franchise?
- Since the Raiders took over ticket sales this season, sales have risen. 6 out of 8 home games were sell outs.
- I accept the fact that you have a strong hatred for Al but anyone who knows what makes Al tick realizes that all the guy cares about is winning. No one in their right mind would seriously believe that Al would purposely suffer the losing and slings and arrows from the media just to move to LA.
- Last and most importantly; What would Davis' motivation be for moving to LA? If all he cared about was making as much money as possible, he would have sold his controlling interest a long time ago, cashed out his chips, and lived a comfortable life of a retiree. Clealy you don't know what makes Davis tick but atleast your 'theories' are funny. :)
Pantyraider,
Sadly, I have to agree with your point.
Art Shell came in and tried to show the players who was boss, but Porter, Moss, & others showed Shell who was boss.
The same way they showed Turner, & Woodson showed Callahan.
As long as Al Davis prefers to run a daycare center instead of a football team, I'm afraid this sad trend will continue.
One of the biggest reason Gruden was able to succeed was because he coached grown ups like Rice, Brown, & Gannon.
These players were leaders, and they set the tone for the entire team.
What does the new HC do if the Raiders are losing 17-6 at halftime, and captain Moss decides to quit ??
Maybe I'll be wrong and Davis will turn over the offensive roster, and bring in some serious football players.
But it's looking more like Shell will be the scapegoat, and many of the baby's will return.
With the penchant that the Raider organization has for picking up talent from USC, would it be too far-fetched to see Norm Chow selected for the HC job and Sarkisian tabbed for the OC job? Working together they did quite well for the Trojans, and that familiarity might translate into a quick ramp up for the offensive coaching staff.
Rob Ryan for Head Coaching duties!
I'm not saying it will happen, but that's the bandwagon I am on. Anyone care to join?
Marc Trestman and the Shoop Shoop song.
What ambition we have.
I wonder why we keep losing?
Nothing is gonna change.
This time next year we will be looking for another HC and QB.
What I've been arguing all along was that it was apparent that Shell's priority was to change the culture. And according to his agent, that's what he was trying to do. I thought that Davis was on board with that. But apparently not.
I never know how accurate the media reports are, but if Davis is simply going to scapegoat Shell, and bring back Moss and Porter with open arms, don't expect any coach with a reputation to be willing to come to Oakland if the "inmates are running the asylum."
There is one exception. If Davis hires Green with the request that he find a way to interest Moss, Green might accept if offered enough money. In that case, we're back to the "Randy ratio," and I'm ready to puke. It looks like Lombardi won the inside war.
If this is all coming down as reported, and I'm one of the last to sign on to conventional wisdom, then don't expect next season to be any better than the previous four.
ProFootballTalk.com is reporting that the Falcons are telling candidates for their HC position that the team is "not necessarily married to Vick." He could possibly become trade bait. I'm not saying to go after him, I'm just looking at all options available.
I like what I saw of JaMarcus Russell and reportedly he's hired an agent. Sounds more and more like he's coming out for the draft. I'm gonna take a look at Troy Smith in the Championship game Monday and see what he brings to the table.
A new dawn will rise in Oakland, and it will be groundhog day yet again.
Embarassing coaching hire followed by screw up of the 1st round draft pick (this time 1st overall), and yet again no more than 4-5 wins.
Nothing will change until Davis is gone. NOTHING.
It's just the same shit repeated over and over and over again.
We're a joke.
Ghost-
We all feel your frustration but the old man surprised a lot of people by letting Shell go. Considering their relationship it had to be extremely difficult but Al knew it was the right thing to do. Keep in mind what AD said after the chefs game. "...To turn this thing around I have to do something big..."
JustWaitin'Baby
(Not bad huh Panty?)
"Shell's priority was to change the culture. And according to his agent, that's what he was trying to do"
Janfran said it right...that he lacked the skills to get it done. Not to mention his really poor game and personnel management skills.
And even if he had "changed the culture", the team was a pathetic disgrace on the playing field. I'd frankly rather have the "inmates running the asylum" if the team were winning.
Doesn't the phrase "Just win, baby" ring a bell?
I don't know if I want to "Just Win, Baby" if it costs us our Raider soul. The guys that made that phrase our mantra laid it all out on the line every game, and would beat the hell out of a teammate like Moss who didn't.
calico, i WAS trying to be funny. just trying to find a reason as to why our beloved team has fallen so far. sure al wants to win, we ALL wanna win but his ego is preventing that. it's been that way not just during the last 4 years but since day 1. i'm am just so frustrated and angry at all of the guy's antics.
karma has a lot to do with this too. what goes around comes around baby. he sure is getting his now after trying to screw the league all these years. i'll bet the other 31 owners are sure getting their laughs in.
bottom line is as ghostraider said, this cycle of losing will go on and on as long as al is around. and we fans have to sit here, suffer and watch what used to be a once proud organization crumble in our face with no end in sight.
and since al isn't going away, neither will the losing. we can speculate all we want about who the next coach will be or who the first pick will be. what's al gonna do? whatever he does, i have a feeling it ain't gonna be pretty.
memdf said...
Ghost-
We all feel your frustration but the old man surprised a lot of people by letting Shell go. Considering their relationship it had to be extremely difficult but Al knew it was the right thing to do. Keep in mind what AD said after the chefs game. "...To turn this thing around I have to do something big..."
JustWaitin'Baby
(Not bad huh Panty?)
After last season he also said:
"We didn't score enough points"
Then proceeded to bring in Aaron Brooks as QB, pass on Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler, and draft another pseudo CB in Huff instead, and another safety in round 4.
He totally ignored the offensive skill positions again in the draft and hasn't taken a player that might actually score some fuckin' points in the first round for a decade.
Ok, so Leinart and Cutler bring is no more wins last season, but at least we'd have a QB now, as is, we had no wins last season and no QB - and we still have no QB.Huff might be a nice player, but that's all he is, and he was a luxury pick - Davis once again indulging and gorging himself at the expense of the team.
We keep losing, but we're not using these shitty years to develop a QB it's ridiculous.
The old mans words are empty IMO, they don't mean a thing anyway, i doubt he even remembers that he said "we didn't score enough points".
And don't tell me he tried to address the offense last year because he didn't.
So when the old man says "to turn this round i have to do something big" excuse me if i don't get too excited because we will see another patch job full of compromise short term answers and "solutions" to the endemic and systematic problems that have dogged the Raiders since SB 18.
Al is just going to try and do the same things again without giving up any control.
Wait and see.
I have always been and will always be a die hard Raider fan, but if Shoop is hired as HC and Trestman is our OC, this team will suck and I will not even attempt any sort of optimism. If Al does that then I will finally join ano in hoping and praying for Al to kick the bucket or let go of the team. Trestman and Shoop suck!
Roy
Ghost-
The personnel decisions from last year have obviously not worked out well.
At the time adding Huff was not so crazy. They passed on Cutler and Lienart because they thought Brooks could give them a year or two until Walter was ready.
Everyone, me included, thought they were close. If not, downright going to be competitive.
No one dreamed that things would go south so quickly especially after a good preseason.
My point was that Shell is gone and that is a good thing regardless if the players had anything to do with it.
On the other hand, I agree with Radier00 and Panty. The amount of sway the players seem to always have with Al is troubling. And outside of Sapp I can't identify one player that would put someone in line before they even thought about running to daddy to tattle.
I am hoping that a Chuckie II emerges from the flames like a Phoenix.
I think it all hinges on the HC.
Good news at www.Raidernews.com
Stop worrying your pretty little heads off.
The Raiders have initiated background checks and will begin interviewing candidates to replace Art Shell this week. They hope to have a new coach in place before Super Bowl XLI on Feb. 4, not that hire-maker Al Davis has ever felt beholden to timeframes.
Offensive coordinator John Shoop is not considered a candidate, and he's already working on a backup plan.
It's somewhat unexpected but a great opportunity and one I'm going to go for, it's a tremendous organization, one that I'm familiar with. I know what's happening up there and I think I have a feel for it.
Steve Sarkisian
I believe now, more strongly than ever, that after Shell's dismissal, in the manner he was dismissed, will mean that the next coach will assuredly come from within, or be so young that this would be his only HC option.
The next HC will either be Ryan, Shoop, or Sarkisian. Ryan or Sarkisian are more than acceptable to me. If it's Shoop, it's going to take a major amount of selling to get me on board with that.
I also concede, as did PantyRaider, that folks were right about Shell laying off the defense.
It is also apparent that Shell lacked communication skills with these players. He apparently adopted an attitude of "just do what I tell you to do, and shut up." This is bad management on Shell's part, no matter management level. You have to have close relations with at least some of the players, who are leaders, to bring the others on board.
But if what PantyRaider suggests is true, the inside culture of Raider mangagement is one of political backstabbing. It is also a culture that Davis doesn't, or refuses to recognize.
If this is all how it looks, and I'm not quite willing to go there yet (due to my basic distrust of the media), if the players like the new coach, and he expects nothing from them, we might manage another 4 or 5 win season. If the players don't like him, expect no more than 2 wins again next year.
If the players are completely in charge, Ryan will be the next head coach. If coaching staff politics are the rule of the day, it will be Shoop. If Davis wants to show off his ability to spot young coaching talent, it may well be Sarkisian.
If the players are in charge, the players have selected, in the past, Joe Bugel, and Bill Callahan. Mike White was a result of inside politics, and a political backfire led the hiring of Shell the first time. Coaches hired, based on Davis' ability to spot coaching talent, are John Madden, Tom Flores, and Jon Gruden.
If it's Shoop, don't ever expect to see a pass thrown longer than 7 or 8 yards. Shoop almost never stretched the defense over the five games he was the OC.
As far as how this impacts the draft; if it's Shoop or Ryan, expect the Raiders to trade down for more picks. If it's Sarkisian, I'd expect the Raiders to either pull the trigger on Quinn, Russell, or Smith.
One of the things I'm finding very interesting with the media is their current defenses of Shell. During the season, it was always, "Shell needs to be fired by yesterday." Now that Davis pulled the trigger, it's "Davis never gave Shell the opportunity to succeed!"
Slimey littel bastards.
i like sarkisian as a potential candidate too but i like norm chow better.
ok leinart fans, check this scenario out.
davis hires norm chow as head coach. matt leinart is our QB. YUP. leinart as OUR qb. How? we trade spots with arizona. get their 1 and 2 this year along with leinart. they get our 1st pick overall AND andrew walter. walter goes back to AZ where he enjoyed success and away from the raider craziness. what better way for davis to make a splash in the minority hiring than to hire the first asian head coach in all of american professional sports?
this will right a wrong that davis made last year by not drafting leinart to begin with. AZ will probably be changing offensive styles anyway with their new coach.
if that won't work, then swap picks with cleveland or tampa for their 1st and 2nd this year AND their 1st next year. expensive for them yes, but what is it worth to have the 1st pick? or if not their 1st for next year, a bunch of additional picks this year. the raiders draft peterson, can jordan and draft and or sign O linemen.
am i nuts? :o)
memdf:
The Huff decision was crazy at the time, so was passing on a QB in '04.
This isn't being wise after the event, how you can pass on Leinart or Cutler because of some tenuous belief that Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter is a recipe for curing a problem that has dogged the Raiders for 25 years barring Gannon and to an extent Hoss.
There was no belief in Andrew Walter whatsoever, we've seen that already because Brooks played out the season - Davis simply chose to duck the issue once again and draft another fast CB becuase he loves them.
Fans took the Leinart whiff as proof positive that Al loved Walter, and of course the notoriously tight lipped Raiders played along with a well timed soundbit or two to assure fans that we hadn't whiffed because the teams heirarchy doesn't have the balls or stomach to commit the time, money, and faith in a real Franchise QB prospect.
It's never smart to pass on a QB when you don't have one, only Houston making the worst draft decision of all time has prevented the Raiders choice of Huff being properly held up to scrutiny.
No-one i knew thought we were "close" to anything, most of us thought Shell+Walsh+Brooks+Moss+No o-line+Jordan was a recipe for total disaster, i really don't know how anyone could have thought otherwise.
But still.
I do agree with you and others with regard to the players have too much sway with Al, that about sums up why no-one will coach here. It's frankly ridiculous, and no HC with any rep left to lose is going to put it at risk for a job where the owner let the players go tittle tattling and isn't allowed to hire hiw own assistants or have any sway in April.
I'd like to ask you a question.
We have the 1st overall pick in the draft and no QB, do you think Davis has any excuse in your eyes for failing to draft a real franchise QB propsect this year?
PS - If you don't believe my take about Davis and Leinart and Walter, just watch Davis YET AGAIN manufacture a scenario where he can pull the wool over peoples eyes and pass on a QB again.
Just you watch, Davis will wriggle out of it yet again, he will find an excuse to abuse this team and it's fans and dupe them out of a Quarterback they can be proud of and believe in.
Time will tell.
Who will be the QB? Who will be the HC? Who will be your featured RB, WR, OC, what about the HORRIFIC O-line ????????? I know that if you put "rob the Slob" in as HC you'll all be sorry, I know that if you have "andthrew falter" in at QB you'll all be crying in you beer too. Try as you may the mess in chokeland won't be fixed in 1, 2, or even 3 years. Be prepared for a long overhaul faida fanatics. big al (MR.) davis has a lot of money to keep himself wheel'n and deal'n for you all. Just hope against hope baby. That's the TRUE state of the "nation".
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Come back when you've won a playoff game chump!!!
What's that 20 years now?
LMFAO.
Anon 12:46 says "Come back when you've won a playoff game chump!!!"
Anon - We all know the Raiders have sucked the last 4 years but here are some facts for you to chew on which makes your above statement ridiculous, childish, and categorically false.
The Raiders have won 4 playoff games in the last 7 years. (What is this BS about not winning a playoff game in the last 20 years?)
To put some perspective on your comment, here are some other teams to consider:
The Chiefs have not won a playoff game since 1993.
The Chargers have not won a playoff game since 1994.
The Cowboys have not won a playoff game since 1996.
The Broncos have won 1 playoff game in the last 8 years.
If you are going to spout off, please realize that you will need to put your crayons downs, know what the F you are talking about if you truly want to join the grown-ups table. Otherwise you will be viewed as an ignorant punk which is no way to go through life.
Calico, great answer to anonymASS (2:46).
BlandaRocked, I usually agree with your scenarios regarding the Raiders, however I do not agree that the Raiders will trade down in the draft based on who they select as the HC. Actually, I do not agree with anyone who says we will trade down (no offense to you in particular). :) Like you, Panty and other Raider fans who frequent this GREAT forum that RT has provided, I have been a longtime Raider fan (since 1963). I was born one day after Al took over as head coach and GM (Jan 15th, 1963) so I consider myself an elder statesman. Having said all that, I do not remember any draft where the Raiders have traded down, specifically out of round #1. Maybe a few times we've traded picks in the 2nd - 7th, but never round #1 that I can remember. It is just not the Raider/Al Davis way. Al will NEVER give up position in the draft. It goes against his "Take What We Want" philosiphy. Trading down in Al's mind (IMO) is to concede, which he will NEVER do. He will not let anyone "get ahead" or have the upper hand, and that is what I believe runs through his mind. Yes, it might be the right thing to do, but it won't happen. I see us keeping the #1 pick, then trade our first pick in the second round to move up a few spots into the 1st round. I won't begin to predict who we will pick, but IMO, I would take QB Russell, then try to move into position to get RB Marshawn Lynch. Either way, I am looking forward to a new coach, high draft pick(s) and a winning season in 2007.
P.S. Great takes from everyone...it's the first place I visit each day.
(azraider63)
P.S. Besides being OLD, I was born in Oakland and raised in the Bay Area. Not that it makes me an expert, just a little backround on my Raider addiction for the past 43 years and 355 days.
(azraider63)
calico:
You have it wrong i was assuming the non Raider fan was a Chef trying to get something back after last nights disaster.
That was the "chump" the guy that bashed the Raiders.
I'm completely on board with the Rob Ryan as head coach movement. I was a HUGE Art Shell supporter from the beginning (even before, I wanted him to be the coach in November while Norv was still here). So when it became clear that it wasn't going to work with Art (culminating with his resignation/firing), Ryan seemed like the best choice because, as some people have pointed out, his similarities to one John Madden. The key, then, is finding an offensive coordinator who can be inventive and imaginative and spark an essentially dead offense. Hopefully the prospect of getting to coach freak of nature JaMarcus Russell (my choice for the No. 1 pick, if we don't trade down) will entice some young coordinator and that person can help bring back the "O" in Oakland.
pantyraider - that is a very interesting concept. the team could be led by a 3 headed monster each coach with equal responsibility and accountability. the only thing i'm worried about is one or more parts of the team would point blame at the other, non-performing part say the offense. what would the moral be like if that happened?
sounds interesting though and it would be a first in the league.
ProfootballTalk.com is reporting that Bobby Petrino will take the Atlanta Falcons job. Looks like we can cross him off the list of candidates(again).
Petrino would have been good, but there are no guarantees a college coach will succeed (Spurrier had a good offense in college) in the pro game. Go with Ryan (or maybe Ron Rivera, the DC from Chicago...?) and find a budding offensive mind to take on the task of resurrecting the offense.
Plus, no matter how rough the Raiders job looks, Michael Vick is still a coach-killer.
It's official. Just confirmed on NFL Network that Petrino took the Atalnta HC job.
Bama7
My thoughts:
Tedford- please, please drop this idea. Akili Smith, Trent Dilfer, Harrington, Carr, Boller & Aaron Rodgers. That's a roll call of NFL futility... why bring in the creator of these imposters? Tedford's scheme works in college ball, in a league with not so much defensive speed, save USC.
Gannon- to think he'd come, in any capacity, is a reach. I enjoyed the Gannon years but he never really acted like he liked being a Raider, and he cut on the organzation's heirachy, subtley, many times.
Martz- Took Vermeil's scheme and players and created a buzz around himself. Players didn't seem to be crazy about him... we absolutley do not need that.
Ryan- I'm torn here. I think he's earned it, but would he stand up to Davis? Would he boot Bilitnekoff and the rest of the hangers-on and name his own staff top to bottom? I just don't see him doing that. But, if we don't give him HC, I'd bet anything someone steals him from us. We cannot afford to have our defensive momentum stopped. Might HAVE to give him the job.
Cam Cameron- Just stop it. Two initals: LT. This guy is blessed with the best football player in the league (kind of like Norv with Emmit & Aikman, or Art with Bo back in '90). Anyone could have success with LT back there. Plus, he has Marty who is adept at building tough, physical football teams, particulary in the trenches (as we Raider fans know all too well!) Cameron is just benefitting from happenstance.
Mike Price- Ex-Pac Ten HC and current UTEP HC. He turned lowly UTEP around in one year. Took them from winning something like four games in two years, to a bowl birth. Had a tough season this year, but heck, UTEP isn't exactly overflowing with talent. They put up good points all year long. This guy's just waiting on the right situation. He's at a crossroads in his career because of a night out with strippers after taking the Alabama job (was run out of town before coaching a game here). Exiled to UTEP and has done pretty well considering th elimitations of UTEP. A great offensive mind.
I like Mike Price or Rob Ryan.
As for players, I too think we have to snatch up Jemarcus Russell. But how about this: Trade Schweigert and Porter and our second and third round pick for the lions #2 overall pick. Take Peterson. Peterson & Russell. Then get a RT in free agency. I hold out judgement on The rest of the OL until they are allowed to play in a real NFL offensive scheme.... not backyard Lamonica ball.
I like Schweigert but we have TWO great FS's. Move Bing to SS and Huff to FS... use Schweigert and Porter and the draft picks to grab that #2 slot from Detroit.
Peterson is the best back to come out in quite awhile. Jemarcus Russell is a phenomenal athlete.. kind of a Vince Young with a better arm.
And, while we're at it, make a move for Lorenzo Neal (FB) and Adalius Thomas (LB). Get Sam "no noise" Williams out of there and stick in the meanest SOB we can find to team with Howard and Morrison. MAke the defensive even better. Make it so good we CAN win with it. Like the Ravens. We're close.
I know one thing... Al wants redemption quick. He doesn't know how long he has. He won't give two shits about leaving a salary cap nightmare for the next guy. He's got to repair his legacy, and I bet he's willing to mortgage the future to do it.
We need a stud RB (Peterson), a freak QB (Russell) and one more LB and we're there.
Bama 7-
Millen's a rube, but can you really see him going for that? Oh wait, the Ford family just gave him an extension, so maybe it could work. I like Schweigert too, but I think he's a bit of a locker-room lawyer. After this last season I think we need to clean house and give the next coach the best chance possible to succeed. That and cut the direct phone line from the locker room to Al's office.
Ghost-
I admit to drinking some kool-aid (but I never inhaled.)
OK, so I was the only person to think the Raiders were going to be more competitive than they actually were this year.
(A little help please)
Davis' mentality is re-load not rebuild hence Brooks vs drafting a QB. Maybe I was dumb to think what plauged Brooks in the past would not in Oakland, oh well.
I know you have submitted that Davis is self indulgent at the cost of everything else but if Walter had panned out and Porter Moss had not punked out we would not be having this discussion.
You posted no more wins even with Cutler and Lienart BUT, and I agree, they would have taken their lumps like Alex Smith and developed. Although in the poisnous atomshpere of the offense this year who knows. We took neither so we are back at square one.
Who would I take with the first pick? OK I'll bite. Although Peterson is good I am worried about injuries.
I don't have to wait to see Smith play. I would take Russell and build a team around him.
Davis may not want to pay the money a 1st round QB commands but he may be so seduced by his physical skills that his self indulgence might work in his/our favor.
I do have a problem with not having a real scheme on offense or a head coach for that matter! and this vertical game nonsense has to go. But no one player is going to turn this think around until:
1) Someone Grudens Al (keeps him out of things until he can't stand not being in the spotlight.
2) They get markedly better on O
3) There is some leadership on the field
As I am posting I also see Bama7 brings up intriquing and realistic possibilities on draft day. If they can get Russell and Peterson that would be something BIG!
He has also said it better than I, Al wants redemption quickly and I too believe!
Reports are that Demarcus Russell will enter the draft in april.
This is good news.
Golden boy Petrino goes to Atlanta.
If Steelers go with Grimm, well, I'm holding firm on Ken Whisenhunt.
Al liked him enough to grant interview last year, why not do the dance again ?
memdf:
I understand why bought the Art Shell Kool Aid - The hushed silence at the press conference, the old man speaking at length, and pretty coherently as i remember, even the hairs on my cynical neck stood up more than once.
Then of course we had the old BS about "Raider football" and "Power running" which the fans always love to hear, and of course Art would whip the line into shape quick smart wouldn't he?
Of course he would he's a HOF'r, Slater isn't far off etc
The emotion blinded many to the fact that Art Shell was actually a pretty lousy coach first time up, but still, even when the Bed and Breakfast was hired most didn't wake from their reveries about the old days.
The support for Shell was based soleley on the fact he was a "true Raider" and as such that meant he couldn't fail, Raider fans by and large take their lead from Davis ie : The Way to win is to back to the past.
It's a common phenomenom in sports, a hugely succesful team tries for decades to recreate it's glorious past, and fails - eventually it re-invents itself and "gets back".
I digress.
Brooks is what he always was, a very poor decision maker that lacks leadership ability and heart, BUT always flashes enough ability to tantalise. You can even say that about Collins and Jeff George......
"....but if Walter had panned out and Porter Moss had not punked out we would not be having this discussion....."
But they didn't. Were these players more symptoms than causes of a failed regime and the worst offense in team history?
The problem was the Raiders offense was a line of dominoes. There wasn't a single solid element in there.
SHELL/WALSH/LINE/SYSTEM/QB/TE/RB - only WR looked passable, and then you have a coach that in the end sees Whitted as better than Ron Curry......
That Walter, Moss and Porter failed, doesn't excuse Davis getting it badly wrong at the draft again - it is what it is, another wasted draft oppurtunity.
My point about Leinart and Cutler is that although we still stink, we would have filled the QB void, instead we lost and still have a QB need. 0-2. Fuck me, lose by all means, but for fucks sake use that time to rebuild......
This is the argument i had in '04, when we whiffed, people "don't want no stinking Quarterback" they wanted to "win now" well guess what?
Trouble is, fans are never realistic about their teams. The '04 team was in need of total rebuild as was still hungover for the SB. It was going NOWHERE. Perfect time to draft a QB, but no, lets "load up" again....
I'd take Russell, and i agree Al's selfishness might actually help here, all known evidence points to JR's arm knocking Al Davis bandy legged - look for a jaw dropping combine and i think even Al might finally bite on a real QB.
News that Russell will enter knowing the Raiders are 1st overall might be a promising sign, as he'll know full well what Davis looks for in a QB.
I still like Quinn, i don't care what the fan in street says here, i dont care that NOTRE DAME can't beat anybody - Quinn is a fine prospect.
That said, failing Russell i take AP, the injuries don't concern me, the collar bone was a freak, and barring that he's missed only 1 game.
Peterson turns this team round and makes a bigger impact immediatly than any player in the draft. But thwe QB need is even bigger, Jordan sucks, and Fargas is a backup at best. But you cannot find a Jamarcus Russell later in the draft, you might find a quality RB.
Failing to draft Russell, Quinn, or Peterson will be a total and complete disaster IMO, and make FOUR blown 1st rounders on the spin.
Hopefully the noises about Johnson not wanting Oakland and staying in school are true. I don't want you either kid.
You're right about the vertical game, it's bullshit. Hanging onto the past once again.
You are also right about HC, the only way we find quality here is to get a young off guy just like Gruden, a diamond in the rough, like Payton would have been.
Hopefully he can get Davis out the way.
To "get back" the Raiders have to find a HC and a QB - both require leaps of faith and in all probability a total 180 from Al in philosophy.
If not, again we can all go back to sleep and wait until Davis goes, because i suspect that many many people have already reached the consclusion where they know we can win with Al Davis anymore.
Last chance again, Al, over to YOU.
Ps:
To change the subject, isn't Tyler Brayton just about the least effective defensive end in history?
Another major screw up here, Kelly should have been left at DE, and Sands should have started alongside Sapp, allowing more snaps for Hawthorne who still has upside, and the bench for Brayton who does not.
Brayton - 50 tackles and no sacks, come on Rob don't tell me Hawthorne and Kelly can't double that production?
Check this out:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/raiders/ci_4970310
Sarkisian interviews with Al today. Don't look now, but the report says Al is thinking about interviewing Tom Coughlin if he gets fired. Please Al, don't do it!
Hey Pantyraider-
Check out this link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/07/SPGNLNE3Q91.DTL
It wasn't such a clean break after all.
JaMarcus Russell has declared himself eligible for the NFL draft. As far as I'm concerned, our first pick just became a no-brainer. Now, if we can get some value out of Moss and/or Porter, we can stock up on draft picks... we already have an extra 5th rounder for Gabriel (and we have Gabriel).
In addition to being a slap in Al's face, Petrino signing with Atlanta probably means Shaub won't be available for trade. It sounds like Petrino and the Falcons are not set on Vick. All the more reason to draft Russell.
Take, the reason I don't like Martz is the way is offense is ran on pure Arean Football Scheming; that is easily tweaked by outright blitzing. The same with the Colts. They made it to the Super Bowl under Martz, a year after Vermeil left (similar to the Gruden-Callahan ordeal).
Look, Martz is a genius when it comes to offense. But this "over scheming" only takes you so far. Just ask Peyton Manning. At some point, you can't forget the basics of running hard, and taking chances. Martz takes chances, too many chances; and forgets about the run. That is what I never understood about Martz and Tom Moore. How can Moore not utilize Addai more? How did Martz forget about the running ability of Marshall Faulk?
Sure they make the playoffs every year, but how many rings do they own? ZERO! Martz has one as OC under Vermeil, but lost to the Pats as HC.
Calico: I think you hit it on the nose with Sarkisian. IBA is reporting that he will be the first to be interviewed for the vacancy; but I think it's for OC.
Scorpio: Davis will be dead by 2011. No offense, I like him and all, but I truly think his health is declining.
Whisenhunt will not come to Oakland, I think he listens way too much to what the Squealers org has to say about Davis; which is why I don't think he stuck around too long last year. Davis took the interview seriously, Whisenhunt did not. End of story.
Shell's problem this go around was for starters was his pride. He walked around with his SB Rings from his playing days, and garbed about being in the HOF. His second problem was inconsistency with how he dealt with things. His third problem that did him in, and the root of the first 2 aforementioned problems; was that he demanded respect, but didn't show it to anyone else. That may have worked in 1970, but you have to EARN respect. A true leader leads by example, and does not do anything he is not willing to do himself. Art is not that guy, which is why he is gone; and why this year was the worst debacle in Raider history.
Cam Cameron is going to replace Shittenheimer this offseason as DunderDolt HC. I think in all honesty, Miami is the worst HC job position out there. Everyone talks badly of Al Davis in the media, but what about Shula? Don Shula continues to ruin this organization, and the Dolphins' front office has to let him go. Then they need to turn around and do what USC did to Bush, with Marino; "We Don't Want You Here Anymore!" I think Tom Coughlin will be heading south.
Grimm will be hired over Whisenhunt in Pittsburgh, and Whisenhunt will leave for the Giants.
Marriucci could land in Atlanta, same with Martz. And God knows who in Arizona, but right now, they are lobbying hard for Pete Carroll. Chow does not like Leinart, so I don't think he will go there. But he surprised me by leaving USC.
Those are just my thoughts.
In addition to being a slap in Al's face, Petrino signing with Atlanta probably means Shaub won't be available for trade. It sounds like Petrino and the Falcons are not set on Vick. All the more reason to draft Russell.
I don't buy that 1 iota. Vick will be their QB,they can't afford otherwise, plus the cap hit if he was traded is staggering.
The Vick story is a red herring, maybe to try and chase the idiotic Raiders into coughing up the 1st overall pick.
"Shell's problem this go around was for starters was his pride. He walked around with his SB Rings from his playing days, and garbed about being in the HOF. His second problem was inconsistency with how he dealt with things. His third problem that did him in, and the root of the first 2 aforementioned problems; was that he demanded respect, but didn't show it to anyone else. That may have worked in 1970, but you have to EARN respect."
I personally cannot stand Art Shell, i respect him as a player, but not as a coach.
I'm not surprised that this surly, uncommunicative, arrogant, ashen faced coward failed to inspire the players and coaches.
Your description of Shell fits exactly with what i've seen from him over two spells as Raider HC. He is oppurtunistic, selfish, and doesn't accept any responsibilty for his own failings.
He definitely expected to march in and get everyones respect without question, in this regard, like every other regard in his mercifully brief tenure - he was WRONG.
A truly terrible mistake by Davis, but one he brought upon his own head because of his own meddling ways that led to a ridiculous 38 day trawl through NFL refuse. I do however praise Al for not putting his pride in the way of sacking Shell, that couldn't have been easy.
Authored by: joewoodson24
Man it's funny how quickly people forget! Last year we were killing AL DAVIS for keeping this guy as DC, now everyone wants to anoint him as our savor. Don't get me wrong, I was wrong about the guy like every other RAIDER fan. He can really coach if given the right players, but don't get it twisted he is the same guy who tried to make Sapp a DE in the 3-4 defense. Oh yeah he also decided Brayton was a stand up OLB. Hear are some things we could think about, I like the combo of his brother coming in and bring Adalius Thomas with him, then we can go out a hire a good young mind as the OC. I would also settle for Chow as the HC and Sarkisian and the OC with Russell being the first pick. AS I said don't get me wrong I think Rob will be an excellent HC someday, but let's allow him to fix our run defense first then worry about all the aspects a HC has to worry about later. joewoodson24
azRaider63:
I got you beat. I was born in Oakland, grew up in the bay area, and then moved down to LA in about 1980. The Raiders followed me down. In about 1993, I moved back to the bay area, and the Raiders followed me back.
I don't think that the Raiders will necessarily trade down. I think it will depend on who is hired as HC. I tend to think that the Raiders will draft Russell. Al Davis' first ever draft pick was a QB named Roman Gabriel. Gabriel chose to play in the NFL for the Rams, rather than for the Raiders in the AFL. But Gabriel was an extremely similar type to Russell. As Al is feeling nostalgic in his old age, I suspect that he'll reach back in time for Gabriel.
1. When was the last time Davis traded back in the 1st round?
We hear this every year "Raiders will trade down" "Raiders should trade down".
It won't happen.
You know what's more likely?
Davis getting another 1st round pick to go with the 1st overall.
2. Rex Ryan and Adalius Thomas.
It's not happening. Thomas isn't going to come here, and Rex Ryan will have much better oppurtunities than Head Coaching for Al Davis.
The Raiders will get a nobody with everything to prove, a'la Gruden, or a retread wash up a'la Art Shell, NY, Denny Green, Fassel.
In between those two extremes are coaches with unspoiled reps who can demand power and control. FDavis doesn't offer that, ergo they coach elsewhere.
Essentially the Raiders can only attract a HC with everything to prove, or nothing to lose.
Ryan is a better choice than anyone we're likely to attract, but the problems are on offense, i say we try and hit another Gruden.
There will never be any discipline while ever Al is alive, so lets get some offensive firepower at QB (Russell) and RB and have some fun till Davis goes!!!!!
My current prediction:
Sarkisian will be hired as HC because this follows Al's pattern. Whenever he needs to do "something big," he goes for the rising young talent. Rauch resigned his Raiders HC position to take a job with the Bills right after Super Bowl II. Davis reached down and plucked Madden. After the Bugel disaster, Davis reached down and plucked Gruden. Right after the Raiders had their (so far) worst season in Davis' history (5-11) in 1987, Davis reached down and plucked Shanahan.
I'm reading that Shell's stowism annoyed Davis. I've also always wondered why Davis hated Terry Robiski as OC when Robiski was successful. It turns out that Davis prefers the HC to call his own plays and show a lot of on-field involvment. Therefore, the Raiders next OC will not be a game planner, but a practice field OC and eyes in the sky, as under Gruden originally. Even at the end, when Calahan was calling the running plays, Gruden was still calling the passing plays.
Rob Ryan will remain as DC. I know an assistant coach I'd like Ryan to hire, and for Al to consider as ST coach. Junior Seau.
I strongly think that if Davis hires someone as HC, other than Rob Ryan, Ryan will put his name in the hat somewhere else (Miami and or Pittsburgh?).
I feel it is his time to shine; and Al Davis loves this guy too. He did the stupid 3-4 defense with Sapp at DE because that is what Norv Turner wanted to run. After that unsuccessful attempt, Ryan was able to convince Norv to go to a blitzing 4-3 (which is what we had built for talent wise). We have improved defensively each year he has been with us.
I know the problems are offensively, but that is easily fixed with a great OC who knows what they are doing. I think Rob Ryan would give them "free reign" as to what to run offensively. I just think that the problem would lie in with, "WWADW? What Would Al Davis Want?" when it comes to offense.
Sarkisian is a little too green for Head Coach, he would still need some NFL experience under him to solidify it for me. Rob Ryan is ready, it is his time; with the Raiders, or somewhere else.
raider nate 75:
I don't know that Sarkisian is too green. That's what folks said about Madden, Gruden, and Shanahan as well.
However, I think that if Ryan isn't named, he will bolt. Not this year, but next year someone will offer an HC job to him. I think Davis anticipates that, which is why Davis went to some lengths to retain and extend Martindale's contract. He'll promote Martindale if Ryan goes elsewhere.
Authored by: azraider63
OK BlandaRocked, here's why I agree with you that Jamarcus Russell will be a Raider....I lived in Louisiana for 5 years (after leaving my beloved Bay Area) and became a defacto LSU fan due to the fact that my wife and all of her family are LSU alumni. Based on that, I think it's meant to be. (lol) Second pick in the draft should be Marshawn Lynch....because Cal is my first college team....um....oh yea...my first son was born in Berkeley (Alta Bates). It's all coming together now. Despite my humor (or lack there of) I hope our first two picks are the above listed.
P.S. Keep up the great posts.
azraider63
Remember, the 3-4 was anchored by Ted Washington and looked promising on paper. Obviously, it was a bust, but not just because Sapp struggled at DE, mainly because we didn't have ANY LB's.
To his credit, Ryan now seems to have put the right players at the right positions... uhh, for the most part. (dump Brayton, move Huff to FS and Bing to SS.)
BR-I think he bolts this year if he is not HC. I think he goes to the Giants too, if they lose Coughlin, which I'm sure they will.
If not there, then I think he may go to Miami.
Either way, Ryan will be a HC somewhere, I just hope it is in Oakland.
Remember also, that had we run a 4-3 instead that would have been a disaster also because we had no LB's.
The front 7 was total garbage two years ago. Nothing would have worked.
I give Rob Ryan a free pass for '04, he's shown what he can do with some decent players to work with. I need to see some more aggression though, Huff and Howard need to be utilized as blitzers much more often.
Both these players need to be flying around the backfield and LOS.
Did we really draft Huff to play pseudo CB?
The tapes i saw of him showed a guy that made plays, that stuffed the outside run etc i'm disapointed he hasn't made a single INT or forced a fumble. Of course it's his rookie year and compared to UBER BUST Robert Gallery after three years, Huff looks a superstar.
Ryan got two big toys last year it's time they were utilized better, neither are making plays.
Brayton will never start again he is garbage, it's like playing with 10 men on defense. SW is a backup IMO, and a nice one.
SS has always been the fall guy for fans. He isn't great, but looking around this team, is he really a big hole?
NO.
Ryan will have to make do and mend at FS/SS.
Bing has been brought here to play LB, and LB he will play. I thought this pick was overkill in like with Stanford Routt in '05 and nothing has changed my mind since.
Still at least it means we can FINALLY properly address the offensive skill positions this year.
I have an interesting question for everyone to give me their input on.
What do you think is harder? Finding a HC or an OC?
This to me is the chief reason to NOT hire Ryan. It would probably be easier to find the young, up and coming offensive mind to be the head coach and bring in one of his guys to be OC. But is someone who is as bright an OC as we need willing to play second fiddle behind Ryan? It's an interesting problem that Mr. Davis and the Raiders face. That's why I like the idea of Tressman or Sarkasian as the OC, because they seem like people who would be willing to take that backseat while a guy like Ryan leads. But that's just the way I see it.
What do you all think?
Bama7
As some of you may know, Nick Saban recently took the Alabama HC job. Some say he wanted Jimbo Fisher as his OC, but this morning the Birmingham paper is reporting that Jimbo Fisher is not interested. Jimbo Fisher is the LSU OC and Saban's former OC when Saban was the LSU head coach (prior to taking the Dolphins job).
Could Al be planning on taking Jimbo Fisher as OC to go with Russell in the draft? At least we'd have a new, ready made, offensive strategy in place.
If someone like Jimbo Fisher were brought in to be OC, it would surely mean Ryan would be our HC.
I think it makes sense because Al, as much as he needs to, does not want to dismiss Freddie B and all the other old Raiders. Those old silver and blackers would probably stay if Ryan were coach. Surely be ditched if we get an established name as HC.
Sarkasian, Trestman, a guy like Jimbo Fisher... looks like Al maybe searching for an OC.
It bothers me that Jemarcus hasn't declared eligible. Is he scared of going to Oakland? Who wouldn't be after this year? Maybe Jemarcus is demanding an LSU guy come along (Fisher or perhaps Les Miles)? Maybe that's why he declared and then suddenly it was off.
Al has reached out to a southern OC before... I think Ray Perkins was the oC for awhile, right?
Raider Realist- you're right, Millen would probably never give up that 2nd pick in the draft.
Pantyraider-
You have got to be kidding me. If he took Moss for Roy Williams he'd be nuts...in our favor. I don't see him doing it. However, I think he's going to go for a QB this year. Kitna can win you some games but I don't think he can get you over the hump.
I'm beginning to think that we can't risk trading out of that pick because if we do, he'd be in position to play the New Orleans role and snatch Russell up.
Make sure you guys watch the game tonight and see how Smith performs. Gotta keep an eye out for talent.
RT - This had got to be a record for the most comments! "Raider Take...the local watering hole for all the thirsty Raider Nation. Cheers!"
Bama 7 - Fisher was signed by FSU as OC.
RaiderRealist - It's early but Troy Smith is looking like a early 2nd round pick although there will be unbelievalbe public pressure by the Cleveland Browns faithful to draft him.
My final projected staff:
HC - Rob Ryan
DC - Rod Martindale
OC - Steve Sarkisian
QB/Asst Off. Coach - Marc Trestman
Whether we like it (or not) or agree with it (or not), all bets are off on Porter & Moss being traded/released with the hiring of a new HC/OC.
Calico,
Troy Smith might very well be availible in the second round. I think there will be the same if not more pressure for Cleveland to draft Brady Quinn...seeing as how he is from Dublin, Ohio.
Smith is not looking to good at this point. He looks awfully small behind that O Line, doesn't he. I like Jamarcus at #1, and then the best available RB with our second pick.
I agree 100% on your projected coaching staff.
azraider63
Before I say what I'm about to say, let me point out that last year, I lobbied hard for the Raiders to draft either Lienart, or Cutler.
I firmly believe that the best way to build an offense, is around a talented young QB, and obviously, the Raiders need to build an offense.
However, with the Raiders sitting with the top pick in the draft, we must ask, what do we really know about Jamarcus Russell other than he has a powerful arm ??
If Brian Brohm enters the draft, it might be wise to trade down, gather more picks, and still land the more polished Qb, in Brohm.
Keep in mind that Russell had his best game of the year against the soft ND defense, is coming out as a junior, and will get a Kings ransom to sign with whoever drafts him.
I say, to risky, let's pass, and make a better decision with this golden chance to pick/trade, number one
Raider00, I would have the same concerns with any qb picked as high as #1. History has show that not too many make either good to great NFL QB's. Having said that, I like Russell starting in 07 or if he sits a year on the bench. FYI - Go to Youtube.com and do a search on Jamarcus Russell. The first video listed is a 6:55 clip highlighting his highschool career, some of which he is only in the 9th grade. Awsome. He looks great in the pocket. I know it's only HS, but it's worth a look, even if we don't draft him.
azraider63
Whatpeople have missed about Russell in the hoopla about his arm, is the incredible accuracy he has. Over 68% this season.
I watched him make every throw against ND, and barring 3-4 throws that were just off, he was right on the money with every single pass, he put the ball right where the WR wanted it.
In short:
1. Accuracy at all distances.
2. Very catchable ball.
3. Nice tight spiral.
4. Quick release.
5. Incredible arm.
6. Displays nice tough.
I think this kid can throw the football just where he wants it. A mountain of untapped potential in there.
What's more he has the type of cannon that can thread the ball into tight spaces over the middle and outside at the lines. Yiou need that in the NFL.
What we have is a potential elite QB, no doubt in my mind, his arm is that good. Only Carson Palmer in recent years looked to a similair arm, and of course he got to flash it much more often to more people than Russell did.
Wow, I am really impressed with the volume and quality of the dialogue here. Great stuff. Thanks to all of you. You are right, Calico Jack, this sets a record for comments!
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