Lane Kiffin: Weasel, Martyr or Both?
Wow, even by Raider standards, that press conference was surreal.
Perhaps the strangest moment was Tom Cable saying he loved and respected Lane Kiffin, right after the boss who’d promoted Cable to head coach had just portrayed Kiffin as a lying weasel who’d sown team disharmony.
What’s clear is that the acrimony between Davis and Kiffin dates back to last season, and that it continued throughout the winter and beyond.
I’m certainly looking at Kiffin a bit differently this evening. He said he’d hold his own press conference tomorrow, so we’ll see what he has to say.
I stand by my previous take that, regardless of who’s more to blame in this specific matter, the organization’s indecision regarding Kiffin has led to the inexcusable outcome of another season of turmoil—at precisely the time we can least afford it.
The warning signs, in fact, were even greater than I could have imagined. This relationship was doomed to failure. Action clearly needed to be taken yesterday (ie: last winter), not today.
As I’ve said before, the more failure, the less margin for error. This is a basic principle of life, business and sports. After tying the NFL record for consecutive seasons of 11-or-more-loss futility last season, we had no margin for error heading into this season.
We have even less today.
posted by Raider Take at 4:27 PM
176 Comments:
Do you think the reason Kiffin wasn't fired last seaon was because of the fan support? I vividly remember people saying they would drop their season tickets if Kiffen was fired. Was this Davis' plan all along? Was he concerned that he'd lose season ticket holders if he fired Kiffen at the end of last season and decided to wait until the suckers (fans) had bought in?
JF
Did anyone else see Kiffin's interview on ESPN? Very measured and mature response. Hard to see him as the "professional liar" Davis attempted to paint him as.
Sad day, Raiders fans.
Al Davis made the comment along the lines, what kiffin did to the staff, and what he did to the defense, as reasons kiff was let go.
funny but the defense has picked it up since the donk game.
does this mean a return to passive defense ?
doesn't matter really.
hey tom cable, enjoy your 2 years as HC.
that's considered a long run with the raiders these days.
Surreal is right! That's a lot of information for a team that doesn't even have a PR dept. ;) From zero to complete transparency in 30 minutes.
Davis was clearly trying to cover his legal tracks by setting the foundation for "cause" with the media. Although, it's hard not to find truth in much of what he said. Like Kiffin not wanting to pick Russell and Kiffin wanting the college job.
Even Kiffin supporters believe there may be too much candor in his statements to the press. Clearly, some things are better left in-house.
Perhaps Kiffin did get a little too big for his pants, but delaying the inevitable has cost us.
In the end, Davis said "we will win," but almost conceded the NO game and the Jets game. That was strange.
Jerry Mac has posted a transcription of the letter to Kiffin on his blog.
http://www.ibabuzz.com/raidersblog/
As one person points out, it looks like it was written this morning.
The letter is clearly written to be presented to a third party.
Does anyone know where to find the COMPLETE Davis press conference? This one posted is only two minutes of it.
Also does anyone know what time the Kiffin conference is tomorrow?
Thanks,
Psycho
Like Kiffin not wanting to pick Russell and Kiffin wanting the college job.
I don't know, ny. I wanted the Raiders' to take Quinn with the first pick and I distinctly remember Kiffin singing Russell praises later in the day (of the draft). I remember because it made me feel a whole lot better about the Russell selection. I thought maybe I was wrong and that he was the better quarterback and I wasn't so disheartened with the pick. He expanded on how Russel had been the choice all along and that he had wanted Russell all along. So either he's a master liar (which according to Mr. Davis he is) or things aren't quite as cut and dried.
As for the Alabama job, I'm would think good coaches get offers all the time (ok maybe not ALL the time), and also would think most coaches, outside of perhaps Shannahan and Belichek who have bigtime job security, keeping one's options open would be the prudent thing to do.
psycho try this link:
http://www.nfl.com/videos;jsessionid=7EC9D920BA5F926490AF508D3D82A9DB?videoId=09000d5d80b43727
Not sure if that is the complete pc, but it's over 20 minutes long so you'll get the general gist.
:)
Apparently, Kiffin spoke to BSPN after Davis' press conf. I heard from a friend that Kiffin more or less said Davis was lying.
The drama continues.
pyscho,
the nfl.com isn't the whole thing, only 20 minutes.
Here's another link that's over an hour:
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/raw-video-raiders-owner-al-davis-press-conference-wednesday-pt-2/3935359934/?icid=VIDURVSPR01
Look around the site, I believe the pc was about 90 minutes and that only looks to be part 1.
After kind of scanning throught everything and letting it soak it. Especially the letter to Kiffin. I just can't help but feel really, really bad for Al Davis.
Not to say that he hasn't completely lost it and somehow screwed this all up. Just saying it all.
Psycho
Thanks Toni!
Psycho
I am so sick of Al Davis' bs. I have been a fan for over 35 years and I can't make any more excuses to my friends for Al's behavior. I hate to say this but things aren't going to turn around until Al abdicates his throne. The game has obviously passed him by and a change needs to be made, (and not at head coach). I hope that in my lifetime this will get turned around. I just don't see it happening with Al Davis at the wheel.
Moonshine
nyraider,
if you care to watch Kiffin's response, here's the link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/index
just click on the right frame.
I don't think what Kiffin did was done in a vacuum. He has been communicating with Pete Carroll,His dad(which includes Jon Gruden)and probably others. The Old Man took his power away, contrary to the original agreement, and Lane stood up to him.I am sure that he had outside counsel.Snake Al was the real liar is this fiasco, lied on Lanes" job description. Al is yhe problem. Good luck Lane
I don't know WTF to think.
I hate kawasaki but check out this post PC
Al Davis insight...
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/
Al Davis is living in the past.
davis still thinks he is a king maker, or breaker.
he thinks he can come out, lob a few bombs in kiffin's direction, and ruin, or at least stunt, his future coaching career.
but al will be wrong again. kiffin will be back, probably in KC. beating al's rear end for years.
al still thinks he can compete.
hell, he still thinks he can coach.
wow, are we in for a long journey into the darkness.
BAMA7
MEMDF.. read the article. Very sad. Al is no longer relevant and it is killing him. Kiffin didn't put up with any crap. He did it his way and that obviously infuriated Al. For once (well maybe twice) someone stood up to the bully. Kiff didn't just stand up to Al, he swung back hard and it is easy to see that Al was very angry about that. Kiff's legacy at Oakland will be that he did what Gannon once suggested... he put a torch to the place. How? By exposing the truth about the franchise: that nearly every decision, from scouting and personnel, to finances and game strategy... everything is decided by ONE human being. In today's NFL that seems impossible, yet for the RAiders it is true. It is also a recipe for losing as we all know much too well.
Kiffin cancelled his press conference per jerry mac.
Well I don't know what to make of all of this. Al did state a lot of things that most of us heard for a whole year now, about the rumors but were never confirmed. I have to wait to see what Kiffin has to say tomorrow. But Al painted a very convincing argument against Kiffin.
Basically, Kiffin was given a golden opportunity with the Raiders and he took the whole thing a step forward. He's definitely got b***s to do some of the things that Al said he did. But what bothers me is that Kiffin really wanted the Ark job. That's what really irks me to no end. That means there was much more going on before Kiffin decided to jump ship.
I do blame both Al and Lane for this horrific display of PR. Its does nothing for us and made all us fans hate Al even more. But we can clearly understand Al does run the whole team from top to bottom. And that the coach does have a level of say as to what he wants as long as the HC can make an arguement to justfiy his case with Al.
memdf
Interesting article here that provided a lot more inside Al's head and where we are going in the next couple of years as a team. I hope Cable can provide the glue to hold this team togther and atleast get us to .500 this year.
Thanks for the link for the article. Interesting but also shows Al is losing some of his swagger.
Mr. Duva
I don't know what everyone is bitching about at this point. Personally, I'm relieved. Al made the guy we least want to loose next offseason the HC, and Caveman can concentrate on the D.
Sure I wish Kiff would have worked out. Al did to.
Making excuses?? He's a crazy old man! Deal with it! Learn to love it! Have you been making excuses for him for 35 years?
Anon 9:57, your take is perfect. I'm not sure why. It doesn't make sense, and yet it makes perfect sense.
I have been trying to wrap my brain around the sad reality of having our sixth coach in the past 7 seasons. After digesting some of the info. on the net today, my answer to the title of this RT blog post is: both.
This seems like a classic example of a "personality conflict" where the relationship was broken well before this season started.
Both Davis & Kiffin seemed to be equally at fault. Both of their actions throughout this ordeal had negative consequences.
Both Davis & Kiffin seemed to be stubborn to a fault and were unwilling or unable to bridge any gaps by good old fashioned communication.
I watched Cable's PC and my gut reaction was very positive. His personality attibutes of sincerity, passion, forcefulness, directness, and yes, loyalty, definitely shined through.
It was interesting how he handled the press' questions. He never hesitated with his answers which for the most part were simple, common sensical views on team, motivation, how to win, and the bare essence of football.
By dumb luck, indecision, and in a dysfunctional way, Al might have "picked" a winner in Cable.
We shall see. I will be very interested to see how the team responds in New Orleans.
I am glad to see Kiff go. For the main reason that this had to stop. Carrying around this drama is horrible and losing only makes respecting a coach on such thin ice less likely.
I respect that Kiffin stood up at times to big Al. I believe that other people(Gruden) influenced how Kiffin handled the situation.
For the Al haters, when you became a Raiders fan you knew and probably respected Al for his "go against the grain" attitude. Al comes with being a Raiders fan, sure it's hard to defend him all the time, but he's the one who runs the team and you knew that when you made the RAIDERS your team. You dont have to love him but he is big part of the franchise. Hating now but loving the god times doesnt make sense to me, you take the good you take the bad and there you have.........
We have a new coach, which may put a hault to the drama, but have we rid ourselves of the dysfuntion?
Cable is identified as interim coach. Can we expect yet another coaching change after the season?
My hope is that the team was on the verge of turning the corner, and Cable and Co will push the right buttons and expedite that progress.
Otherwise, the NFL record for futility is ours for the taking.
I was surprised to hear a columnist from the bay area speak well of Al on ESPN last night.
He was a call in on ESPNNews describing the situation and, when asked about how he felt about Al, he spoke that he's still got it and knows what he's doing.
He was baited by the ESPN guy, saying that most Raider fans feel differently, but the guy stuck to his guns and feels Al is the right man to lead the team, that he admitted he needs to bring in a personnel man to help him, and that things will get better with Al still in charge. That what he wants are two more rings.
Interesting.
Peter/Wigman
Long time lurker, sometimes poster.
>>>
As one person points out, it looks like it was written this morning.
>>>>
I think Al has been in and out of enough courtrooms to realize he can't simply fabricate evidence without getting nailed for it later.
And some of the stuff he said we wondered about here (IIRC).
I also wondered how if Kiffin had nothing to do with the defense how the frigging Cover 2 suddenly became the norm during the Denver game... Al is a M2M guy, and SOB never used it before Kiffin showed up... it just didn't pass the smell test.
I'm assuming the players are smart enough to know that Kiffin was trying to deal from both sides of the deck... they aren't morons.
If the players like and respect Cable, this could actually work. The circus atmosphere will finally go away eventually... and they can go back to worrying about football.
Further.. if it is true that it was Kiffin's idea to bring in Hall, and then knowing how he treated Hall as if he was his red-headed step child through the press... I have no doubts that Kiffin might have some problems with at least some of his players... why didn't he deal with that in-house?
These are things we mentioned here before... now suddenly everyone thinks this is all Al's fault?
Cmon guys.
Correction above: Kiffin bringing in Walker and then acting like it was all Al's idea.
gary
Here's my take, Davis made some very pointed accusations against Kiffin. Accusations that he has to "legally" back up with evidence. You better believe that Al has more than a Fed Ex letter as evidence.
Kiffin looked like he got hit by a train on ESPN, and couldn't look at the camera with his answers. His head swivelled all over the place, especially with his answer of, "Just because you put it on an overhead, doesn't make it true." In response to Davis' letter, and whether or not Davis communicated with Kiffin. Dude, a letter, email, phone call, or face-to-face conversation is considered viable communication. He looked stunned at what Al exposed, now he's cancelled his press conference.
Kiffin needs to counter this, if it is untrue as he claims, by getting his agents and lawyers to retrieve recordings of the game calls (yes, they record what is said on the headsets for this reason), emails, voicemails, organizational memo's, etc. I think if he gets recordings of how a game is called, and you hear Davis' voice on one of them; Davis will be exposed as the liar. I think if this is the case (that Davis is the liar) it will give grounds for the NFL to forcefully remove Davis as General Managing Partner of the Raiders. That is how serious these allegations are!
I feel like Calico, they're both wrong! What is even more telling to me, is out of the two, Davis was the one who admitted his fault. Kiffin didn't. As it stands right now, Davis has more to lose with what he said; and I believe that Davis has pretty hard evidence against Kiffin that supports what he claimed today at the press conference. Especially the comment that Lane wanted his dad as D-Coordinator; and Al told him "No, because your dad is still under contract with Tampa and I don't want to tamper with another team's employee." Then he said, "That was 7 months ago, get over it!" WOW! He has to back that statement up legally now.
Joseph said, "I believe that other people(Gruden) influenced how Kiffin handled the situation."
Those are some serious allegations too, that I think Al may have evidence of, which is why he came out guns blazing in the press conference. I agree that maybe Gruden was a person that "influenced" Kiffin. I also think his dad, Monte, Bruce Allen, and Mike Lombardi helped him; and if that is the case; it would not surprise me if Al has evidence of that, and is going to press "tampering" charges against them, and their teams. Mike Lombardi could lose his "press" credentials with the NFL if he had any contact with Kiffin in this way.
I think both are at fault here, and by the time it is all said and done, they both are going to look really, really bad.
The guy I'd like to hear from now is SOB. If what Al said his true, I'm surprised SOB didn't PUNCH Kiffin after he threw him under the bus after the Denver game.
Buddy would've punched him...
Psycho
Maybe I'm seeing something different here. Background: Lane wants to fire Rob Ryan, doesn't happen. The Raiders are the best three quarter football team of late, but than the defense goes into a prevent defense and lays down in the fourth quarter allowing the other team to score at will. I smell conspiracy here.
Al is so full of crap it’s offensive to any longtime Raiders fan who remembers when the team was run with singleminded purpose. Ever since the money in the game got huge, Davis has been greedy and obsessed with controlling every dollar gained and spent.
It is my impression that Davis was offended by Kiffin’s understandable desire to steer his own staff, draft day, and his roster.
If Kiffin really did want to trade down in 2007, I think it would have been brilliant. Adrian Peterson didn’t go till 7, and Brady Quinn was available at 22. Not to mention third-rounder Trent Edwards. JaMarcus Russell is the kind of quarterback who might look great in a well-manned offense, but he needs pass protection and receivers, which the Raiders were and continue to be short on.
Davis’s loyalties seem to be handed out based on who best sucks up to the old Raider tradition, and that’s why he favored Ryan over Kiffin’s objections.
To me it’s revolting to see how Davis went out of his way to make things impossible for his head coach, then laughably fires him on accusations of insubordination and acting contrary to the good of the team. Shocker, Kiffin couldn’t tolerate the unprofessionalism of Al Davis and the Raiders disorganization. Davis should not have the right to maintain his malaise, and I hope he loses bigtime in court as he pursues his petty, miserly ways, trying to avoid paying the coach he fired for poor reason.
Does Davis believe it helps the Raiders’ cause for him to welch on a contract? What coach with half a brain would ever want to walk into that madhouse again?
Well I would say this Lane Kifin has done much more as far as lifing all of our spirits as fans! Much more than Al Davis has done. Come on, I believe that owners should be owners and that is that, as far as making such decisions especially at the birth of a new season is just not stupid, it is completely outside the box! I think that the players commision should suggest someting along the line of the players decide if a coach stays or goes. Al Davis should get his head out of his old ass and let the team play, let the coaches do their job and basicly shut his trap. We are talking about a man who has been around for a very long time, and hell ater this week he will probably ask his nurse who fired Kiffin. I have been a Raider Fan for the better part of 30 year never changing through the good and the bad, but I can say this Al you are maiking it very hard for me to keep all my Raider shit in my Garage acting like an ass, you are too old not to understand the words GROW UP! You have let us fans down to satisfy your ego once again.
I haven't read all of the posts, but I thought I'd chime in. Whenever you're getting one side of the story, you're getting...only one side of the story.
So as it turns out, the resignation letter was real, but the timing was wrong. Davis gave the letter to Kiffin last year so he could bail and take the Arkansas job - but Patrino beat him to it.
Davis read the clause in Kiffin's contract which said that his position is "subject to the direction of the General Partner," so Davis did not strip Kiffin of responsibility.
What Kiffin said about Ryan and Davis deciding on the defense, and leaving Kiffin out of the loop, just reeked. It made no sense to me at the time. Both Davis and Ryan have now called Kiffin full of crap on that issue. As Davis said, if Kiffin wanted Ryan to blitz more, all he had to do was walk down the sideline and ask him to.
For those who haven't noticed, when Ryan runs an aggressive defense, there seems to be none better. When he runs a soft defense, the team does poorly. But what the Ryan family has done all through their history has been to run aggressive defenses. That's what they are known for. It never made sense to me that Kiffin just couldn't get Ryan to run an aggressive defense. That suggests that Ryan held tight to that which he was least competent. I don't believe that, and I won't. Ryan was running the defense his HC was asking him to run.
There's much more, but pressed for time today.
Why are people so gullible? It's the same crew that would be wondering if the economy is good if GWB came out and said it was. Time after time after time we have seen this show before and STILL we have the " I wonder if it will be right this time". For over 20 years, we have seen the decline of the franchise and Al Davis. But, Al comes out like a lawyer presenting his case to a courtroom and you all say "see, Al will turn it around". It's truly a study on SUCKERS. Once Al was questioned away from his "script", his answers became vague and incoherant. Just like a politician trying to explain that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do. Kiffin was probably told that he can have his leash at the beginning and then Al probably started tugging harder and harder and then the dog( Kiffin) started to tug back. Once that happens, Al takes it as not being loyal and then it all breaks out. Remember folks, it has BEEN PROVEN that Al's way NO LONGER WORKS, but you can all keep dreaming that "this time it will".
JONES
Just to add...
That Kiffin's lawyer told him to shut the hell up is significant. I saw Kiffins interview yesterday, and while his demeanor seemed calm, the things he said were not measured.
When Kiffin said, "I was embarrassed for him," his attorney must have sh*t a brick. Defending Kiffin must assume that Kiffin is sometimes unaware of the implications of what he says. If he is perfectly aware, Davis should have fired him at season's end last year. For that failure, Davis must accept responsibility. And he has.
However, I agree with Calico. While I think my choice would have been Ryan, Cable might be the perfect choice right now. I can see it having the same effect as when Shell took over after Shanahan.
Cable won't refuse to use Walker just because it was Davis who wanted him. Cable won't let Hall play out of position, just because he wants to prove that Al made the wrong choice. Cable will play to win games and not political points.
Blanda
Al said he knew early in the first year that Kiffin was not the guy. He said that he KNEW because the way Kiffin treated people. So if Al knew early in the first year, why did he keep him so long after? If Al knew early last year, why was Kiffin not fired after his first season? Ahhh, now we are getting to the point, it comes down to MONEY and it always has with Al. Funny how he turns it on Kiffin and makes out like all he cared about was getting paid and how sweet old Al just wanted to make it work. Al is a liar, he has a long history of it. He is delusional and lives in a world much like yours Blanda...his own reality.
Oh Yeah
JONES
It's clear that Mr. Davis did not see Lane Kiffin as a long-term solution to the head coaching position. By the end of last season, Kiffin's days were clearly numbered. Mr. Davis pretty much admitted that yesterday.
By not taking action to seek a long-term solution at the head coaching position, Mr. Davis made a huge error at the very time our margin for error was razor thin. He seems to have lost his way when it comes to hiring and, now, firing coaches.
Sure, Cable might be the right guy. But if he is, then he should have been in charge of this team months ago, instead of taking over the team in late September. There is no way that this drama hasn't set the team back, at the very time we can least afford it.
No matter what happens now, we are again behind schedule in the pursuit of coaching stability, which is a key component of lasting on-field success.
It is simply inexcusable, considering the coaching instability that preceded Kiffin, to have allowed this poisoned relationship to poison another season.
The fans have had their faith and trust (and wallets) violated by yet another failure by the organization to act in the best interests of stability and progress. There is nothing wrong with expecting excellence from an NFL operation. In fact, the Raiders invite us to do so.
If it is true that Kiffin was interested in the Arkansas job, then that was reason enough. And, if so, I agree with Take that it sould have been done after the season.
As far as the take, probably a little of both. But, what's done is done. Time to move on.
While I initially thought it would be SOB or Knapp, Cable, in some ways, makes sense. He's well respected by the players in the trenches.
What I'm going to be interested in is the play calling and how it will change. Cable and Knapp have worked together for a good while now.
Phil Simms said on Sunday that this team has talent and it was time to open up. He also said he liked Kiffin and felt continuity was what was needed at this point.
He was exactly right. And there will be some semblance of coninuity through the remainder of the season with the promotion of Cable.
He was also about the only member of the media who DID NOT say he knew what was going on. In fact he went out of his way to say he didn't.
I'll have to check out some of these links to catch up. I've had bigger fish to fry lately.
H
WTF are these complaints about Al being tight with money?
HE HAS TO BE! We're at the bottom of the league in revenue!
And have you never said "I knew it!", because you felt much earliery that something was something, but it never really hits home until what happens happens?
Still wish I could see the kiffin press conference.
The Al press conference was great! He phillybustered the crap out of ESPN and NFL network!
Personally, I feel the poor clock management at end of game and halfs should be grounds to fire him. Not saying I WANTED to fire him, would rather him and al make up and go on, but at this point it just had to be done.
Al Davis needs to die
Whooohooo now that Kiffin is gone... "the kid" Jamarco Busto will now be released from the hold of Kiffins limited passing play calls (that was intended to keep in grasps of games we could of won without depending on too much his lackluster QB) let the fumbles,ints, delay of game penalties, using timeouts to avoid delay of game penalties (great time management usage here) running backs over used and hurt, offesive lineman getting hurt for holding off defensive attacks for one more second to this QB who fails to recongnize and make decisions faster. etc.....ahhh but Al says "get over it" i made the pick and all you Raider fans get use to it.... F U Fidel "Al" Castro
Is there any way the league could intervene and restructure the Raider's organization? I believed the NFL had a system that encourages for parity and helps the poor teams get better. The Raiders seem like such a lost cause (not the team itself, which has some nice pieces in important places) and hearing Al Davis puttering on about things until he's speaking utter nonsense is getting to the point where any Raider news on television or online or in the paper is accompanied with an opening chuckle and description of the organization's ineptitude. And the unfortunate thing is that they aren't even taking cheap shots because everyone loves to hate the Raiders, it's because it's fact.
This has been the slowest and most painful fall from grace I have ever seen or could possibly imagine from a professional sports franchise.
It's ironic that at the same time Davis is explaining how he provided Kiffin the autonomy to do things his way, he also said that he expressly wanted Kiffin to go easy on, and give opportunity to tenured Raiders. Scholarships!
Davis also suggested Kiffin wanted to let assistant coaches go and turnover the locker room. Ok. I thought that's what new coaches do.
Folks, when Kiffin took over, the Raiders were in coronary failure and needed resuscitation. Nothing less than fire-bombing the building and starting from scratch. Al still doesn’t want to let go, but I believe under the right circumstances and better communication, Kiffin could have been a successful Raiders’ HC.
Does anyone on this board regret getting rid of Moss, as Davis said he does? Moss checked out on the Raiders months before he was traded. Al has too much loyalty to the players, and that seems to undermine the coaching.
I wouldn’t expect to hear too much more from the Raiders brass for a while. Cable’s weekly press conferences will not be nearly as forthright as Kiffin’s. And we probably won’t hear from Davis, Ryan, Herrera, or anyone else for quite some time.
Anon 10:31,
You are the most gutless poster in the history of posters. You would need 100 foot extension ladder to get out of the sewer.
H
NYRaider,
I don't regret loosing Moss near as much as I regret getting him in the first place. I didn't want him and so I guess you could say he didn't disappoint me.
H
After two long days of drama, Here's some humor to lighten things up:
http://bangcartoon.com/2008/alsheimers.htm
Psycho,
By the way, once Buddy Ryan went after Kelvin Gilbride when he was DC for the Oilers. Problem was Gilbride was the OC for the Oilers and it was in the middle of a game on national TV.
H
lol thnks for that raider rick
Take, I do agree that Davis had plenty of cause, he saw the situation deteriorating, and didn't correct it before the season started. He should have corrected the problem immediately. Especially when it turned out (from information provided by Jerry Jones) that Kiffin lied to Davis, the players and the fans about Arkansas.
However, whether intended or not, I think the current situation actually works to our advantage. The controversy over the last several weeks was primarily of Kiffin's own making. It's great that he kept the team focused so well they had one win and three losses, but while Kiffin stayed, the controversy was obviously going to continue.
We will not get this kind of behind the scenes politicking with Cable. The new coach will be focused on one thing, and that's winning. Also, Cable and Knapp have a long time experience working with each other and should perform well together.
Cable will not be afraid of using Walker (Kiffin wouldn't, apparently, because it could have wound up proving that Davis was right). Cable will not be adverse to walking down the sideline and telling SOB to start blitzing.
Cable, just listening to him, reeks of stability. It could be that he turns out to be Davis' best hire at HC. I think we'll do better than if Kiffin stayed.
H,
I think I remember seeing that. Also Buddy used to try to fight Ditka with the Bears.
Psycho
nyraider ...
Regarding the Moss trade of 2007: I do not regret trading him away for a lousy 4th rounder pick.
However, the fundamental problem was that Davis traded for Moss in 2004 while he hardly had anything approaching that of a playoff-caliber team.
Lesson learned: Disregarding the difference between the team needs and a handful of superstar football player cards = disaster.
****
As for Davis with respect to the fans and the rest of the world: He has never given a bloody nutsacks about anyone else except for a handful of his cronies. He certainly did not when he bailed out of Oakland. He certainly did not at Irwindale. Just recall last night's interview video. Davis was full of his own crap.
Quote from Cable:
"How do you finish teams? You don’t let up. You throw the football to score points in this game and you run the ball to win games. You have to find the balance in those two. You have to get the ball in your playmakers’ hands. You have to be able to do that to finish. Defensively, you have to be able to choke them out, you have to intercept balls, get your hand on the ball and cause fumbles. To me, you emphasize and talk about all these things but sometimes it’s best to go out and play and to pull the spirit out of these men."
I think Davis has placed the team in VERY GOOD hands.
Here's a nice Q & A with John Madden about Al's press conf.
http://tinyurl.com/4yh48n
He makes some interesting points about there being no communication barriers when he coached partly because there weren't as many coaches, assistants, etc. back then.
The old guys will really appreciate the final comments.
i can't believe some of the things i am reading here.
some of you huys seem almost gleeful that al crushed kiffin.
wow, what a sad state to be in.
ok, great, al crushed kiffin.
but can someone remind me what al's record against shanahan is ?
wasn't shanahan the last guy al "crushed".
and what the hell, no one better say a bad word about prized players like walker, and goldenboy coaches like ryan....it's so pathethic.
the worse you do your job, the more al loves you.
that is a sickness i do not believe any team can overcome.
the owner LOVES LOSERS.
NYRaider,
Thanks for the link.
Blanda,
You and I have to put out a disclaimer that we were not on Surus Radio immitating John Madden. It wasn't me, but it is many of the things you and I have been saying here. Some of it near word for word.
H
I guess what it comes down to is that sometimes you walk into great circumstances with your eyes wide open and you marvel at your own cleverness for getting there. But sometimes you back into great situations through unintended consequences. You thank higher powers for watching over you.
Davis may have just set in motion the latter. If Cable turns out to be good, he'll stay because this is his dream job. He's wanted to be the Raiders' HC all of his life.
Further, we have an excellent staff of coaches, players with some real potential, and team unity that seems to have survived Kiffin's politicking. Kiffin was, in fact, the instability.
While the instability was caused by Davis' hiring of a coach who turned out not to be a good fit, it could be that Davis' mistake has caused him to slip and fall right in the middle of STABILITY!
I also expect immediate improvement in clock and game management. I also expect that this team will shortly cease to be gassed by the 4th quarter.
I know, H. Al's press conference yesterday tended to validate a lot of the things I've been arguing with folks about over the last couple of weeks.
Fact is, much of what I know about Al Davis and the Raiders I learned from John Madden, both while he was coaching, while a commentator, and through his books. What he says isn't remarkable to me at all. In fact, you and I BOTH have said the same things.
Blanda,
Good points. I want to add something I heard another head coach say about fininshing.
To paraphrase, he basically said. You don't have to finish the game. You have to finish the play, then move on and finish the next play.
He told his players they don't have to play for 60 minutes. They have to play a series of 6-8 second plays at a very high level. Whether in the game or in practice, that is what he wanted from them. Give him everything you have for that 6-8 seconds, then take a deep breath and get ready for the next play and do it again.
That team has gone from 24th in the country to 2nd in four weeks. And that team has never trailed at any point this season.
Sounds a bit like what I'm hearing about Cable. Hope it's true.
H
Blanda,
Are you calling Davis a liar? Davis clearly stated that it was Kiffin that wanted Walker and Hall. In fact, Davis said, "you were explicit in your desire to sign Javon Walker and DeAngelo Hall amongst others. All were a must to sign in your eyes, Hall in particular, because he played for Greg Knapp in Atlanta and Knapp gave him high grades. Do not run from that now."
So what, Davis was lying about this but telling the truth about everything else?
Roy
i wish someone would ask john madden if he'd like to coach javon walker.
i wonder what big john would do, could do, with a stiff like walker ?
oh, i forgot, john had hall of famer fred biletnikoff, and should be famer branch.
plus famers casper, otto, upshaw, shell, hendricks, ect.
please, things are not the same as they were over 40 yrs ago.
and certainly al "your fired" davis, is not the same.
Well, at least we can now stop blaming the media for all of our woes.
The media were generally right when they reported: that Kiffin's apparent longing to return to the college ranks last year was a source of organizational acrimony; that a letter of resignation was indeed drafted by the Raiders last winter (Al Davis's version of it differs from Kiffin's, but it existed); the Kiffin-Davis acrimony continued throughout the offseason; Kiffin open-to-intepretation remarks to the media over the past months were not just innocent observations, but calculated criticisms of Mr. Davis and the organization; Kiffin did try to fire Rob Ryan; and Kiffin was going to be fired early this season, it was just a matter of which day.
Yes, some in the media continue to act irresponsibly when it comes to the Raiders, but the media didn't create this fire, they just reported the smoke.
No, Roy, I'm calling Kiffin a liar. Why? Because Kiffin has proven he is. Kiffin told the fans, the media, Davis, and the players that he was not pursuing the Arkansas job. He was lying.
Kiffin certainly gave the impression to the media and the fans (without saying so explicitly) that Davis wanted Walker and Hall, but HE didn't. So I blame Kiffin for using Hall poorly and leaving Walker out of the equation.
I also blame Kiffin for his failure to use any semblance of a passing game before this last weekend. If the team had had some work with it previously, it might have turned out better.
For the past two games, Walker has jumped right in to the offense. And both times Kiffin failed to go his way for the rest of the day. That's not on Davis, that's on Kiffin.
Ryan is an aggressive coach. He believes in tight coverages whenever it's possible to run them. Yet Kiffin was asking us to believe that Ryan and Davis sit around all week and decide on the best strategy to lose by playing Hall in a different time zone than the WR he's supposed to be covering. THAT is not Ryan and it's not Davis.
I believe that Kiffin was trying to set himself up so he couldn't be perceived as failing. If the team loses, it's Davis' fault. If the team wins, I overcame Davis to do it.
Blanda,
Surely you jest. Ryan is aggressive? Am I missing something? I can count the number of blitzes and aggressive play calling on my hands. He is the king of the 3 or 4 man rush, of playing it safe, of blowing leads.
First you claimed the it was the media who was lying. Now it's Kif. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Davis was clearly lying to pave the way for his court case with Kif. Did he lie about everything? I don't know. But as you pointed out he lied about Walker and Hall, that much is clear. He probably lied about Russel. Since he has proven himself to be a liar I am sure he lied about more.
Roy
I will wait to see how this situation plays out this year before I blame Al for not firing Kiffin earlier.. remember how pissed off all of us were back then (myself included?)
If Cable can step it up and fix some of the glaring mistakes we all have been complaining about, and the team unity remains, perhaps this can be a situation that Callahan fell into... like setting a trapped bird free.
It's curious I haven't seen any reports of Raider players saying what a mistake this is... course I haven't got a chance to read anything... nothing was reported by ESPN radio.
Perhaps that earlier insider info we received from someone here saying that Higgins said "nobody likes Kiffin" was true?
I still can't get over Kiffin lying like that after the Denver game. To me that was the only information I needed from Al. I don't think he needed to reveal the entire letter, but it's his team, and he can act as petty as he wants to... it sure gave the radio-bozo's at ESPN chum in the water.
Furthermore,
Davis has ran this organization into the ground and instead of recognizing this and trying to change the situation, he is doubling down.
He threw his last shot at a Super Bowl out the window when he traded Gruden.
Roy
Wasn't norv turner also saddled with rob ryan ?
i don't remember ryan being too aggressive for turner either.
at some point, it has to be ryan who is at fault, and ultimately, the man who hired ryan, and forced each coach to keep him.
when kiffin took the raiders job, didn't ryan come with the job ?
The IALF club has officially come to order. We've blamed the first few years of our tailspin on Gruden and Allen, the middle part on Shell and Lombardi, and now we have the perfect opportunity to blame our latest chapter of woe on Kiffin. winning ways with Davis as owner??
Read what Rich Gannon had to say:
http://www.ibabuzz.com/raidersblog/
I can't wait to hear how people will now try to discredit the last qb who took us to the SuperBowl.
Raider00: What makes you think that Kiffin has the skill set to be anything close to as successful of a head coach as Shanni?
Maybe I am missing something, but I can't think of one game where I thought he out-coached the other team.
Can someone else name it
I suspect he might get a plum HC job in college and then flop there much as Callahan did. He will end up being a career assistant in the NFL.. strictly guessing, of course.
A few things I want to touch on:
BR said, "Take, I do agree that Davis had plenty of cause, he saw the situation deteriorating, and didn't correct it before the season started. He should have corrected the problem immediately."
I think had he done this in the offseason, it would have made Al look bad. Al doesn't do anything that makes himself look bad. He let the situation play out, and let Kiffin reveal who he really was. I have said it since the beginning of the season that both Davis and Kiffin are wrong, and part of the problem here at Oakland. Neither one is the whole problem. Now if we can rid our organization of Davis, Herrera, and Mike Taylor; we may have a decent organization again.
Raider00 said, "wasn't shanahan the last guy al "crushed"."
No, when Shanarat was fired, Davis just said that he was fired for insubordination and wasn't going to get paid. Davis one that case, and Shanarat never got a dime from the Raiders. He went to Denver, and was fired for insubordination under Dan Reeves. He then went to the Whiners, learned something under Bill Walsh (a close friend to Al), and went back to Denver after the Wade Phillips debacle. Davis has never blown Shanarat up publicly like he did Kiffin yesterday.
BR Said, "I guess what it comes down to is that sometimes you walk into great circumstances with your eyes wide open and you marvel at your own cleverness for getting there. But sometimes you back into great situations through unintended consequences. You thank higher powers for watching over you."
What???
BR also said, "Kiffin was, in fact, the instability."
I disagree. I think Kiffin didn't bring the stability he was capable of bringing, but he's not the only problem in this organization, just like Al is not the only problem to this organization. They are both part of the problem. John Herrera, Mike Taylor, Scott "rat" Fink, Amy Trask, and Mark Jackson's inability to communicate with one another, much less with Al Davis is the overall problem with this organization. Couple that with the fact that the Head Coach has no idea where to turn to when Davis isn't there. But Al did hint to making some personnel moves soon (hiring a GM). A solid GM with the ability to bring communication back to this organization is going to set us where we need to be.
My answer to Gannon's "Take" is that if the Raiders are so dysfunctional, how did they become so successful for three years while he was there? Perhaps the answer is more with Gannon than anything else. It's true that Al doesn't believe in discipline, and anyone that read Stablers book, he said the same thing... but it takes the players themselves to rise above it and be disciplined. And it usually comes with a strong QB... which why Russell has even more pressure on his shoulders. He needs to rise above the toxic atmosphere and lead the Raiders out of this mess.
Gannon did it.
r2g said, "I can't wait to hear how people will now try to discredit the last qb who took us to the SuperBowl."
Yeah right! I thought the most telling part of the article was where Gannon talks about discussing his opinions with Davis on how an organization should be ran. I can hear Al's response, "Nobody asked you for your opinion."
Madden brings some good perspective in his interview as well, and he said the key to success with the Raiders was communication. Which if you look at my last post, you'll see that was exactly what I said the problem is with this organization. That problem starts with Al Davis. But just because it starts there, doesn't mean it ends there.
SOB was weak under Turner also?
I don't remember screaming at the teevee for SOB to blitz until last year.
The team was so horrible the two years before that, perhaps I blocked it out kinda like childhood trauma, but the prevent and refusal to blitz didn't happen significantly until Kiffin showed up to my memory.
And I always wondered why Kiffin couldn't just go over there and get in a fistfight with SOB if he expected the defense was not aggressive enough. Thats what I would have done if I were HC and someone on my staff was fucking me.
Gary,
when davis fired ratface, no one thought ratface would amount to anything much.
things were much different back then.
the raiders were only a couple of years removed from their last SB title.
ratface was really the first HC that al did not give a real chance to succeed.
now fast forward to today. the raiders have beaten ratface maybe a handful of times over the years.
ex coach gruden, stomps in the SB on al's head.
even mild man turner beats al at every turn.
al has just hired his 6th Hc in 8 years.
kiff may end up in college as you say. but sooner or later, he will be in raiders division to beat down on al just like all other ex coaches.
ratface, gruden, turner, and soon to be kiff...the facts cannot be denied.
Kiffin has spoken again to Siruis NFL Radio:
"To come home and see Al’s press conference and for him to go up there and say all the things that he said was very hard for me and my family. But like I said yesterday, I’m very appreciative of the opportunity and I’m not going to stoop to his level and start firing back. As crazy as it sounds, I felt bad for Al. I was embarrassed watching him up there. It was sad to see. But you have a real bad feeling in your stomach when things are being said like that about you, especially a number of false things being said. So it was very tough but a lot of support from people around the country came immediately after that. I think you guys figured it out pretty well by watching it and I don’t really need to comment on it."
Interesting, ignoring his lawyer's advice. This seems more and more to be about how Kiffin wants to be perceived publicly, starting with the last off season.
In order to assume that Ryan is a coach who loves soft coverages, you have to ignore his family and his history. You also have to assume that Kiffin and Turner had no input on defense. I don't buy that now, and I didn't buy it when Kiffin tried to sell it after the Denver game.
How good is the Raider defense when they are aggressive? Are you going to say they suck? Hardly. You will say they suck when they play in soft coverages, and you'd be right. One might suspect that Ryan does something with his day other than confer with Davis. If his team is best at tight coverages, it just might be because that's what Ryan coaches them to do.
Both Turner and Kiffin are advocates of the modern offenses. They know the lateral offenses from the late 70s onward. Soft coverages on defense is the more recent thinking in terms of stopping lateral offenses. These defenses are focusing more on what happens at the end of the play than at the plays beginning. They seek to prevent the ball carrier from turning up field more than keeping the receiver from making the catch.
Both Kiffin and Turner had plenty of influence in the defense.
Just to clarify. So my position is that Ryan is an excellent defensive coordinator when it comes to aggressive defense. When you put him in soft coverages he's out of his element.
Kiffin (and Turner before him) prefer softer coverages (as Kiffin's father is often given credit for inventing the Tampa 2). Kiffin wanted a coach (preferably his father) who would run those coverages for him. Al Davis wouldn't fire Ryan because he's good at what he does, he just not good at what Kiffin wants him to do.
To me, this seems like a situation where (if you're the HC) you accept Ryan this year and let him run his style of defense (because that's the way your defense plays best). When Ryan's contract expires, you then go to Davis and impress him with how important you think it is to switch to soft coverages.
Blandarocked,
so ryan "the excellent DC", will be shutting down the saints and jets the next few weeks ?
or will al and ryan just become victims again of a bad HC he hired ?
we'll know very soon as we watch the games.
Kiffin's interview...
This one seems a little revealing. Perhaps more than Kiffin intended.
Kiffin: "I think the college route definitely could be a route we may end up going here. We’ll see what comes available. Unfortunately, being fired, there’s a lot of emotion that goes into it and we’re not pleased by any means but it’s made me a lot better and it’s prepared me a lot better for the next job. It will make getting a college job easier from the standpoint of being able to interview and not continuing, in November and December, continuing to have to play games and coach at the Raiders."
>>>
ratface, gruden, turner, and soon to be kiff...the facts cannot be denied.
>>>>
You sound like the ESPN pile-on-Alers. Did you forget about Callahan, Bugel, White, and Shell? Are they anywhere stomping on anyone's head? And what do you see in Kiffin that you think will make him such a great HC? His people skills? His backstabbing of his assistants? His time management? His mastery of the fourth quarter? WHAT? Name one thing that Kiffin has done that suggests greatness?
Raider00, I suspect that Cable will let Ryan do his thing. I think he said as much in his press conference. So if we see the same faltering defense on the field against NO, that would suggest that you are right and I'm wrong.
Right now, the NO game is the game I'm looking forward to the most this season. I expect to start seeing the semblance of a passing game, time management, game management, aggressive defense and the use of Walker (not Al's, the player).
Blanda... I'm hoping we will see the defense flying around the field against NO's for ALL FOUR QUARTERS and then perhaps we can judge who was calling the shots on defense. If we see the same ol' same ol', it sure wasn't Kiffin, or Turner.
I can't even imagine seeing it. Maybe I will be wrong.
Too much to comment on. I'm going to take two red ales and check back in the morning.
One exception though, the players aren't commenting yet because they are out of town or at home. It's the bye week, which is when I predicted it would happen because it's when Shannarat was shown the door.
H
Gary,
this might surprise you, but i do not consider shanahan, gruden, turner, or kiffin, as great head coaches.
i am simply stating the troubling truth.
shanahan beats us almost everytime.
this has been going on now for over a decade.
gruden beat us in the biggest game possible.
and turner hasn't lost to us yet.
great coaches. no. but there does seem to be some deep hatred of al davis, driving these men to dominate the raiders.
if kiffin ends up in Kc, which is very possible, he will probably join the parade.
Come on boyz. This is raider nation, Kiffin is now history. Me? I'm moving on. I think Cable can do it, he and Ryan bring back a "tude" that the raiders lacked with Kiffin. We've got the talent. It'll be a good year.
scar
I am absolutely disgusted to have called myself an Al Davis Fan.
When I was 7 the Raiders won a superbowl and what a glorious wildcard run it was, hence leading to a love of the Raiders, and by extension, I got Al.
In the 29 years since, I have supported the Raiders, and inevitably defended Al Davis from ALL comers,.. In the bay Area where I grew up, in the army for seven years and up until yesterday, in South Carolina.
Al Davis is an egomaniac. He wants the credit for everything. He doesn't want whats best for the Raiders. Or is it that he wants whats best for the raiders only when he gets all the credit and only when they are successfull, otherwise he will fire... He wants to win court battles not football games. or is it that he wants control,even at the cost of winning football games.
He gets my support no longer, I don't wish death on too many people, I save that for real bad guys like murderers, and terrorists, but al davis is a douchebag.
Blandarocked, let me tell you, I used to enjoy reading your opinion, but now, I just skip over them You are such a yes man.(small sidebar here, I saw Namdi Asomugha on nfl network last night, he said the majority of the players supported Lane Kiffin)
Al makes me want to puke my friggin guts out. Guys, I work too many hours, and have my own life and not enough time to get into squabbles with you guys. I do read this blog often, and I am a raiders fan, but really and truly, al davis can go f**k himself. thats my take,
SCAR
>>>
if kiffin ends up in Kc, which is very possible, he will probably join the parade.
>>>>
Oh please lawd YES! Let KC pick up this sniveling overrated punkass coaching-lottery winner!!!
Al doesn't want to fire anyone unless he can get away with not paying them in accordance with contract. That may be a reason he did not fire Ryan [with pay].
Al still preaches "scholarship" payers that he collects as trophies [James Jett?] but lacking football skills.
Al admits to mistakes in hiring coaches. To correct his mistake, he fires each one. Now year after year Al makes mistakes...who will fire him?
>>>>
I do read this blog often, and I am a raiders fan, but really and truly, al davis can go f**k himself. thats my take,
>>>
Not sure why anyone would miss you.
So, Scar, I understand you to be saying that Davis fired Kiffin because he was jealous of Kiffin's 5-15 record. He wanted credit for that, and wouldn't let Kiffin have it? Well, if that's true, you're right. That would make Al one sick puppy.
I wonder if anyone has noticed that the coaches that Al fires have all been losers? That's with the exception of one, Shell's first time around. Davis regretted that and hired him back. Then when Shell became a loser he fired him again.
That's certainly not pretty, but the meme that Al just can't stand successful coaches is full of BS.
If Kiffin's talent were half as big as his mouth, we'd be in the Super Bowl this season.
Now this is the way a Raider HC is supposed talk! From McDonald.
– It’s doubtful you’ll hear Cable talk openly about his team’s shortcomings the way Kiffin often did. While falling short of Joe Bugel’s memorable “multiple Super Bowls” forecast, Cable is talking about playing in January.
“We’re a good team, we’re going to run for the playoffs, and that’s our deal,” Cable said. “We’re not going to back down, and we’re not afraid to say that. Because you have to if you believe in yourself.”
I for one was tired of talk like, "maybe we can win six this year."
Why yes, that does sound Raider like...
“What I believe in is be early, we’ll get done early, and you’re going to play your guts out for each other,” Cable said. “That’s all that matters. Be where you’re supposed to be when you’re supposed to be there. That’s plenty of rules. We’re grown men.”
Just a guess, but I bet you won't catch Cable dressing in Whites at home.
>>>
Cable:
“We’re a good team, we’re going to run for the playoffs, and that’s our deal,” Cable said. “We’re not going to back down, and we’re not afraid to say that. Because you have to if you believe in yourself.”
>>>>>
I'm in!
John Madden had two basic rules. Show up on time and play like hell on Sunday.
We'll find out soon enough.
H
Dominic Rhodes:
"I watched it and I actually sent Lane a text message and told him, 'Thank you for letting me get out of there like you said you would,' and things went down the way they did in the draft. I'm just happy they let me get out because I would not want to be a part of that right now. "
...end quote...
Uhh dude, you have 30 total yards rushing for a team that has the same number of wins as the Raiders.
STFU!!!
scar, i'm with you bro! this organization is ill with cancer and we all know where it is. yep. davis yes men. or should i say yes fans.... when alvin says bend over, they say (in your best mr. t impersonation) "yes suh! how far suh? want me to hold my butt cheeks open like this suh?
For all the drama going on and the "he said" and "they said" stuff bottom line is Kiffin wasn't that good of a coach. Way to immature and way to underexperienced. Al's fault for hiring him-no doubt. But Al ain't goin anywhere and neither am I as a loyal fan. To Kiffin- good riddance, grow up, and go get some experience. Do this and you might be a real good coach someday. PS: thanks for making us forget the Art Shell debacle and getting us somewhat competitive last year. Now for the good news boyz. It appears to me that the winning lottery ticket may have just dropped in our lap. I think Cable might be the real deal. This guy is about results. Not just being competitive but being about W's. If this guy doesn't do what he did with the offensive line at the beginning of the last season that team probably wins 1 or 2 games at best. I can honestly say I have never in all my years of watching football seen a position coach take possibly one of the worst units in the history of the game and transform them into a premiere squad in such a short period of time. Results me lads, results. Go Cable, Go Raiders.
RaiderMike
Blandarocked,
you say the coaches al fires have all been losers.
well, true, but am i suppose to feel better about this ?
to examine further, shanahan, gruden, & turner have all been winners after parting from al.
callahan was mediocre at nebraska, although, the huskers probably could have beaten the raider teams with aaron brooks at qb.
white, bugel, and shell, never were Hc's elsewhere.
the jury is out on kiffin, but he did a good enough job,(actually won some division, and road games),
that he will be heard from again.
could it be our problems run deeper than the head coach ??
bama7
We're all just a bunch of co-dependents.
Al brings in a new coach.. we perk up and get excited. Al takes same new regime and destoys it... we follow behind wondering aloud what happened and how'd it happen. Then Al brings in a newer regime and tells us the old one sucked, but we'll soon win again. We all nod and start trashing the ousted regime, and get excited about the new regime. Then Al kills the replacement regime. Again we wonder & debate what happened (and start trashing the latest deposed regime). Then Al brings in yet another coach/regime and we all get excited again. Then Al destroys that regime and we scratch our heads again. Then he tells us the old one just didn't get it done but that we'll win again. We scratch our heads, then start nodding and get excited again.
We're just a bunch of co-dependents. He's sick and we (the fans) enable his sickness.
Let me get this straight... Al says he hired the wrong guy (kiff)? Really? Isn't that basically what he said after Shanahan, Shell I, White, Bugel, Callahan, Turner, and Shell II???
Who's really to blame here, Al?
Out of total curiosity so I wouldn’t be relying on some media spin I watched both press conferences in their entirety. Bottom line is, if what Al Davis said during the new conference is true, Kiffin should have been fired. Al stated he had talked to Kiffin and in front of witnesses.
Al also stated that Kiffin's attorney was involved in crafting the language of the "resignation" letter because Kiffin was hoping to land a college job.
Further, he stated he thought that it would work out and admitted he was wrong. When asked about responsibility, Al said "He (Al) was responsible".
Aside from the "cause" items he listed in his letter, Al stated the late game defense was Kiffin's call (Cover 2). Al also went on to say he questioned Kiffin on some of the same things we were scratching our heads about. Lousy clock management leading to a 76 yard field goal attempt and only three pass attempts in the second half.
Basically Al said he hadn't done anything publically before now because he just doesn't. As to Kiffin getting on players publically, Al said he believes in getting on players when they deserve it, but not publically.
Al said that there was a “sharing” of the play calling in last Sunday’s game. Anyone want to take a guess who called the first three?
Cable came across well in his portion. When pressed, he said he wouldn't get into the things between Kiffin and Davis. But that was to be expected.
Al also intimated the Raider "Insider" in all this may have been Kiffin himself. Sad if it is true.
Dumbest question by a reporter was directed to Al Davis, "What does Coach Cable have to do to get the word 'Interim' removed." Al toyed with the guy a little before answering "win". And these guys actually get paid for this stuff.
Bottom line is there are two stories here, one with documents, one without.
Until we get the results for the forensic document examiner I guess we each believe what we want to believe. I'm just putting out my analysis of it for consumption.
The Suckneer game in December could be mighty interesting.
H
Many of us have been focused on the Davis PC.
We have talked about this season, 4 games in.
We have discussed the brief Kiffin tenure.
RT and numerous posters including myself have mentioned the past 5 seasons of double digit losses.
We talk about which HC failed, which were fired and why etc.
One of the posters on my site brought something up that I had to do a double take on.
The Raiders have had 10 HC the past 20 seasons. Let that sink in.
The fact of the matter is that we have not had real stability for over 20 years. Yes Shell I lasted 5 years and Gruden 3 but let's look at it on paper.
1988 to 2008
1. Cable 2008 interim
2. Kiffin 2007 (1.25)
3. Shell II (1)
4. Turner (2)
5. Callahan (2)
6. Gruden (3)
7. Bugel (1)
8. White (1+)
9. Shell II (5)
10.Shanahan (1+)
Bottom Line:
Davis is responsible for the hiring and firing of HC. If I was a hiring executive for Company X and the managers I hand selected (a) failed or (b) didn't last beyond 2 years there is a MAJOR problem with the selection process itself. Are the most talented candidates viable? How is the selection process conducted? How is the hiring decision derived? Does the manager who was hired have all of the support and tools and authority to be successful?
Finally, Davis is responsible for acquiring the talent since we don't have a GM like the other 31 teams. He is responsible for creating a positive, healthy, productive, organized, distraction free work enviorment. When he hires someone, that employee needs the support and tools to do the best job possible.
Brushing the instability the past 20 years under the carpet is turning a blind eye to the root of the problem ... the person making the selection itself.
We all know that the proven NFL HC's are not viable candidates. Fine. Find a hidden gem and develop, nuture, mentor, and support this person. We all know that the Raiders organization is considered a black hole for HC candidates who (1) will be lucky to last more than 1 year (2) will need to arbitrate and fight for their pay. Fine. Change the reputation by your actions. Establish a stable environment. Take the hiring of a new HC as probably THE MOST IMPORTANT task you will ever make.
My only sincere hope is that the current fiasco and embarrassment for the organization will be a real awakening for Davis. Once he realizes that when the team wins EVERYONE shares the credit and glory we will be in a much better place. When winning truly becomes the driving force behind the organization there will be much needed clarity. The drama, disorganization, dysfuntion, and chaos is an anchor we need to shed.
No need to speculate any more. Go and read what Rich Gannon, Lane Kiffin, Mike Shanahan (ok, that's a stretch), Warren Sap, Justin Fargas, and others have to say about the Raiders.
http://www.ibabuzz.com/raidersblog/
This whole has become an embarassment to us all. We shouldn't expect it to change.
Bama7
Ny Raider, thanks. Sapp's and Gannon's were most telling. Holy FU&^ what a mess. Well at least Al got his way but was totally embarrassed in the process. Maybe, just maybe he'll relish his petty win over Kiff, retreat to lawsuits over the salary, and get the heck out of the rest of the team for awhile. Then maybe Cable can start winning. I am indeed a co-dependent in this maddness.
CJ--
Great take. To put it in perspective , the Steelers have had 3 HCs since the organization began ? years ago.
The issue now is that Al Davis is almost 80 years old. How many 80 year olds do you know are capable of change? It's just not going to happen.
So what do Raider fans do in the meantime?
JF
I think we all get it... Al goes through too many coaches. But honestly.. how many of these coaches were we HAPPY to see go? Be honest here folks. And through all of it, we still have one more SB visit than 21 other teams, and just one less SB ring than Pitts (the last 15 years) that has only gone through 3 coaches in like 50 years.
I think Raider fans are more embarrassed about it because it gives the media an easy target more than anything.
Buck it up... we are fans of a team we have CHOSEN.
What do you do?
>>>>
So what do Raider fans do in the meantime?
>>>>
Personally I'll just go about my life as always and hope for the best while being entertained by every game. Same as always.
What else can we do?
RT,
Just got done watching Cable's first "Behind the Shield" interview with the press. I think, as a part of the healing process, we should, if you agree, start a new thread to discuss the interview and the upcoming New Orleans game. This is our team and our new coach. It might be time for us to move on, yeah?
>>>
It might be time for us to move on, yeah?
>>>
HELL YEAH!!!
Bottom line is we actually have the players to accomplish things..
especially if Jruss keeps developing nicely.
Three years ago we had NOTHING for players besides an aging Sapp and, well, thats
about it besides a pro-bowl punter.
This defense has the makings of something SPECIAL (without the moronic cover-2 being jammed down its throats). Morrison, Gibril, Howard, and Assum would prolly all be starters on all 32 teams... and many of the
other starters are showing flashes of brilliance, albeit sporatically.
The offense will struggle this year but is young and has hope... Cable was prolly doing cartwheels for the chance to get credit for all the wins the next few seasons.
I think thats the only reason Kiffin wanted to stay, and its one of the
first things he mentioned to reporters after he was fired... this team has a lot of wins ahead of it. I'm choosing not to look behind us at all right now because of it.
Which way everyone else wants to continue looking (and pointing fingers) I guess is up to them.
whoa! has anyone seen this?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-patriots-tampering
&prov=ap&type=lgns
Ok, here’s my perspective. In spite of all the hyperventilating over all this, I saw a beautiful sunrise on my way to work this morning. When I had a break I sent an email off to a young fellow Daughter of H has known since kindergarten. She’ll be 25 in December.
About three weeks ago he was honored at the local high school football game. He was a platoon leader and lost his left foot to an IED last May. Phenomenal young man. He is hoping to return to his unit in January after rehab.
Football and the current soap opera/media circus revolving around the Raiders is a diversion. In the end it’s just entertainment. Yes, we invest our time and money, and many of us will continue to do so, but knowing folks like that young man help me keep things in perspective.
My apologizes to Take for putting up such a sappy post on a sports blog. But, in the end it’s just sports. A week from Sunday I will assume the position with beer in hand, turn on the game and at the end I will either be happy or disappointed. And, I will return to this site to discuss the game and its ramifications.
Football , more than any other sport, mimics life in general. All the ebbs and flows, overcoming adversity and trying to outthink the guy on the other side of the field. But after the game I will take my customary 15-30 minutes to either savor the victory or expunge the defeat from my system. I used to get all tied up in knots over stuff like this, but there are just too many other things in life that I have to take more seriously. I just can’t get angry because Al Davis fired Kiffin.
H
this much was clear from the davis pc, and i hope tom cable was listening.
if javon walker isn't in the mood to play, just kiss his ass.
if curry drops a bunch of passes, just kiss his ass.
sands, & kelly are out of shape, just kiss their asses.
if rob ryan doesn't blitz, or gets passive in the 4th quarter, just kiss his ass.
and most important, always, always, kiss the owners ass, learn to say yes, and be a good boy.
be a modern day raider, and you will get your payday.
to hell with winning.
Dibbly, go somewhere else to run your mouth on politics. This is a sports blog.
Again, I will remain quiet on who I will vote for, but regardless of your views on the Presidential Candidates, they should not be expressed here. I have a deep respect for both candidates and how they've served our country in the Senate (which does more for this Country than the Presidency).
Take your spew and go to Rush Limbaugh, or PBS, or CNN, or MSNBC, or anywhere else; just leave it out of here.
Dibbly,
This is a sports blog. It was not my intention to engage in a political discussion. I do not know, nor do I care about the political leanings of others on this blog. There are plenty of political blogs. I visit some on occasion.
It was just to put things in perspective and in some small way honor a kid I watched grow up and watched him play high school football for four years.
Possibly it was a bit melancholy, but when the debates get as heated as they have been lately, I just have to remind myself, it's just a game.
H
http://www.raiderfans.com/article.php?story=20081001120153474
alright, alright - lets move on. new coach, new hopes blah blah.....@ least until alvin has a wild hair and fires this guy.
anyway, rob in his article brings up an interesting point. if in fact it IS holmgren, who is a local (san jose, oak grove hs grad) maybe he might just convince knapp and rathman to stay for continuity's sake?
someone else brought up or maybe it was somewhere i read where davis may look across the bay for his GM. isn't that tampering?
Scorpio,
The guy from across the bay is no longer with the Whinners if I understand it. No tampering if true.
H
In Cable I must trust!
Bring on the next victim...
Kiffin who? I can't hear you, La La La La.
Psycho - {Fingers in my ears}
i know mccloughan's still there. the other name - starts with a "g" i didn't see on their web site so maybe he's the one you are referring to....
whomever it is, hopefully it'll be someone reputable and who can deal with davis' antics on an everyday basis.
Speaking of becoming 80 years old ...
Historically, a person in power becoming darn too old surrounds himself with cronies. The fact of the matter is he no longer have mental and physical sharpness he had when he was young. (One needs such qualities to stay on top of things.) However, he *thinks* he is still as good as he once were. To make matters worse, it does not matter how much he has achieved during his younger years. (This was from a professor who lectured on Chinese history. However, he seemed to have done well in describing someone known as Al Davis.)
*****
More media fodders from Alameda HQ and RaiderNation. Unfortunately, it appears that we only get what we deserve ... hehe ...
All right. Then it's official. We're moving on.
Take, we patiently await your insight on Cable's post-practice press conference.
I hope to have a new take soon, but to be honest, I'm tuckered out and putting out some unrelated fires today.
This is a good time to remind you regulars that I'm open to Guest Takes. All I ask is that they be short, sweet and of sound logic (which are things you all excel at).
We've done some Guest Takes before, and I think they were great. It helps keep the site fresh when I'm burned out, it gives voice to different viewpoints, and it gives more visibility to what you're already doing, which is giving us your takes!
Email me at raidertake@yahoo.com if you want to do a Guest Take.
There's been a lot of talk around here, that is mostly correct. The problem with the Raiders has been stability. There's a few thing I want to say about that, because I agree with it.
First off, Gruden was NOT run out of town by Davis. Gruden left on his own volition. If Gruden had wanted to stay, he'd likely still be here. Hiring Callahan was an attempt to provide stability, but Callahan wanted to change everything and start over. Since then we've gone through three coaching disasters.
I agree. We need stability. But we were not going to see stability under Kiffin (wow, I almost forgot his name already). Kiffin had indeed toyed with the Arkansas job before he even completed his first season here.
Reflecting on Kiffin's interview yesterday, he said quite openly that it will be easier to look for another college job because of not having to play late season games in the NFL.
Cable is probably not a coach that Davis would have hired in the off season. He chose Cable now because of his... well, quite frankly, his stability.
Cable is not going to gripe about who or who is not on his staff. Not in the middle of the season he's not. If Cable wins, and Davis removes the word "interim," he will likely retain the staff he has.
Cable will keep this job just as long has Davis keeps resigning him. This is, according to Cable himself, his dream job. Cable is also a local guy. The Bay Area to Cable is what Tampa Bay was to Gruden. A chance to be the head coach in front of the home town crowd.
It seems to me that there might be just a wee bit of stability forming here, provided Cable proves he knows how win.
I mentioned yesterday that sometimes unintended consequences from your mistakes wind up taking you to the promised land. I'm going to be rooting for Cable the rest of the season. I already know the players will play hard for him.
blanda, i agree with you on the stability thing. but you know it'll always fall on alvin. if he keeps on changing coaches we'll never have any stability. which is all the more important to get holmgren as per rob's suggestion. once he retires from coaching, put him in the front office (ours). the coaching staff is already in place. his type of offense is already in place. it just makes sense to build on what we already have. the question is and always will be - will alvin leave him alone?
The only coach Al has ever fired in the last 38 years after a winning season was Art Shell at 9-7... and I don't think any of us blame him for that one... so lets stop pretending that Al fires coaches at his whim.
He doesn't.
He fires coaches because they LOSE.
So as long as Cable puts a winning product on the field (or at least this season .500, which would put us at 7-9) I think this will be his gig as long as he wants it.
One thing I've noticed. The Kiffin support/criticism of Al Davis seems to be coming mostly from those who are outside the zone of the local press. They don't seem quite aware of the circus that was going on here.
Many folks said that Davis had to come out of his office and resolve this, even though it was apparently Kiffin making it all go public. Well, he came out of his office and made a decision, and he told us of his mistakes, and he told us why he came to the conclusion he did. Did that quiet the controversy? JMac seems to believe that made it worse, and Davis should have just kept quiet.
Or did people really expect that Davis was going to come out of his office and say, "I'm a boob, and Lane is brilliant. I'm hereby making a gift of my team to Lane Kiffin?"
There are four things that bring Davis out of his office. To announce a hire, to announce a fire, to attend funerals, and to induct somebody to the Hall of Fame. Once he does the first for you, the other three are the only options.
i've got a feeling Al is lookin to add Fassel as GM, a good football mind that Al ALREADY trusts.
the stability issue is a good one and the sole reason (i beleive) for Al letting the Kiffin thing drag on and on. he didn't want to turn it over again so soon. imagine what we'd all have been saying if he's had canned him in the offseason. at least with the time kiffy got in here we the NATION got to see that he wasn't "the one".
now Cable.....holy smokes, now thats how your supposed to answer media questions as a football coach. i like him.
movin on
frkyraider
Cable himself still "loves and respects" Kiffin. Russell calls him a "good guy and good coach." Sapp says he was great last year. Fargas has good things to say about him.
For a lying weasel, he sure has a lot of friends.
"For a lying weasel, he sure has a lot of friends."
That's not unusual for lying weasels. They make friends of people by lying about others.
For instance, I might say to you, "Take, I've always agreed with you, and you've always been my type of guy." Then, for instance, I shoot off a private e-mail to H, and say, "What an a-hole!"
I'd never tell H what I said to you, and I'd never tell you what I said to H. That gives me plausible deniability on both sides. See how simple it is?
That's odd, because every lying weasel I see on any reality television show or in life who acts just like you said is usually despised by everyone.
Not to beat a dead horse but, (hell I'll take a swing at the equine carcass anyway) speaking of lying weasels...Blanda so astutely pointed out Davis clearly lied at the press conference. Davis said it was Kif who wanted Hall and Walker, even Blanda knows this is BS.
Roy
Davis never said that. You're putting words in his mouth. What he said was that Kiffin was fully on board in bringing in Walker and Hall, not that he made the request.
But Kiffin started complaining about Walker almost the minute he walked in the door. He said Walker arrived over weight. According to Walker he showed up at the same weight he always has at the beginning of camp.
What I noticed about Kiffin and Walker is that Kiffin seemed intent on using Walker as little as possible. Walker opened the first series with three straight catches to get the team in scoring position, then Kiffin didn't have another ball thrown his way for the entire rest of the game. Roy, are you going to tell me that was a Davis decision.
Kiffin remained relatively quiet about Hall. I'm not quite sure why Davis brought him up. But I did notice that Hall was repeated left in a position to fail until the entire game against Denver. When Ryan had Hall press with Nnamdi, Hall was much better. Yes, Hall gets beat on occasion. But they only throw the ball his way so he's occasionally going to get beat.
I agree with something that Phil Simms said last Sunday. They ought to seriously consider having Nnamdi and Hall swap sides, because most teams throw to the right. That would have the effect of giving Hall some rest and Nnamdi some work.
Blandarocked,
it doesn't matter who wanted walker, and hall.
it's kiffin's right as HC to call out players he feels are not motivated, or ready to contribute.
it sure looks to all the fans that walker is more interested in partying then playing football.
if he's out of shape, or his mind is elsewhwere, i expect the HC to make an issue of it.
i also have no problem with kiffin using walker huge salary to make his point.
i don't really remember kiffin saying too much bad about hall.
in fact, kiffin defended hall after the donk game, saying the 2nd personal foul call was no where to be found on film.
but we all heard what davis said at the Pc.
he said these are our guys, and we've got to love them.
walker's disinterest, curry's drops, halls cushion, sands, and kelly's sluggishness, ryan's peace pact with the NfL...
JUST LOVE IT BABY !!!!!!!!
Walker doesn't seem disinterested to me. He certainly didn't on the first drive last Sunday. Explain why they didn't go back to him for the rest of the day.
I think they've gone Curry's way about five times this season and two were drops. I'm not counting the one where he got creamed at the same moment the ball arrived. That's a maybe at best.
Kiffin refused to pass, only throwing the ball three times in the second half against Buffalo. Are the WRs just supposed to show up at practice, and maybe, sometimes, they'll get used in games? You CAN'T improve what you don't use.
And one other thing. We learned from Callahan the waste of calling out players in public. We also saw the detrimental effect that had under Shell (Porter).
Kiffin's idea that everything had to be in front of the public was absurd. No business runs that way.
Kiffin's game seemed to be that he'd have all of his disagreements and all of frustrations be out in front of the public so the public could take sides. If you did that at your job, how long do you think you'd last?
And with all of their disagreements, Davis still wasn't going to fire Kiffin. Davis felt that the disagreements were fine so long as they remained in house, just like any other owner in any business.
Or do you prefer the "We have to have the dumbest team in the world" approach of Bill Callahan?
I don't believe that every thing Kiffin did was wrong. Far from it. I think he has the potential to be an excellent coach.
Kiffin did wonders in changing the attitude of the players on this football team. I give him great credit for that. But he didn't make them better by griping about them in public. He made them better by making them work harder for it. But you do that in practice. You don't do it in front of a microphone.
He also didn't do it alone. He did it with the help of Cable, Knapp, Rathman, and many others.
You improve the team to next level the Cable has already started to do it. You say that we are going to play every game to win, and play every season for the post season. You say that we may not have all the elements in place yet, but we are going to attack you in every conceivable way we can attack you.
Kiffin, at one point, sounded like he had already conceded the SD game before even leaving for SD. Talking about the injuries he said that when it gets to a certain point you just try to get the game played and get out of there.
Cable is the kind of guy who will say, "They have injuries too. It will come down, maybe, to which team has the better depth. We're going to come ready to play."
I think every Raider fan, NFL analyst, NFL player, and NFL owner would agree 100% on this 1 simple fact:
To be successful in the NFL, a team needs to have stability and continuity in the coaching ranks.
If you look at the past 20 years we have had 10 HCs. The only times were were successful in those 20 years (success = playoffs) is when we had a HC with more than 2 years of tenure.
Shell (5)
Gruden (3)
Yes, I realize Callahan was the HC when we went to the SB but he inherited a team that had been to divisional and AFC championship games.
The other 8 HC in this 20 year span lasted 2 or less years. This is a recipe for failure.
Now, take the statement of
"To be successful in the NFL, a team needs to have stability and continuity in the coaching ranks."
and examine it from a common sensical view.
If Davis wants success he MUST value stability and continuity. In order to do so, he must make his HC selections wisely and with foresight.
Let's assume that Cable does a good job for the remainder of this season. Let's assume he wins anywhere from 5 to 7 games. Davis will need to committ to giving Cable every conceivable chance to be successful well beyond 2008.
Davis will have some difficult decisions at the end of this season. His decision on Cable should be based on record, performance, team morale, and other factors. However it should also be based on a long term vision and plan.
When stability and continuity at HC becomes priority #1 you can truly start building for long term, sustained improvements and ultimately, excellence.
To continue to shuffle HCs out every year or 2 impedes any real progress.
It has become a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts ... Coach Y was fired because he lost X number of games so let's take another crack at it with Coach Z. At some point you've got to stick with what you've started and that begins with the HC itself.
It has gotten to the point where I believe it would be a miracle if a HC lasted more than 2 years. What is wrong with this picture? There is absolutely no chance for traction and true rebuilding.
At this point in time I would happily endorse a guy like Cable 3 years to set his mark. Allowing Cable to take the ups & downs of his profession and grow as a HC is a far superior long term plan than the current cycle we have been on. If Cable fails in the 3 years then you move on but at least you gave stability and the HC every chance to succeed.
>>>
For a lying weasel, he sure has a lot of friends.
>>>
Umm RT... based on all of your Takes recently, you certainly weren't one of them.
Why the change now?
Ummm, Gary, I'm making a simple observation about the new head coach and several key players professing their respect and love for a "good guy," which is in stark contrast to the lying, manipulative, and largely incompetent individual painted by Mr. Davis.
You have a problem with me making a simple observation about what will strike many as a very curious and very stark divergence of opinion within the Raiders ranks regarding Lane Kiffin?
>>>
You have a problem with me making a simple observation about what will strike many as a very curious and very stark divergence of opinion within the Raiders ranks regarding Lane Kiffin?
>>>
Nope... my bad.
Ok, one happy thought before I leave:
We have NINE games left with teams at or below .500.
There ya have it.
EIGHT AND EIGHT BABY!!!!
Hey Blanda, I found that email you sent me about Take.
Not much to add except I had to take a little break. Going through some of the post here there was actually someone who wanted Davis to die so the team would improve. That's just not a discussion I want to be involved in.
But, that's the reason for my previous post on perspective. So I apologize to all.
Bottom line, Davis believes this team has the talent to win. Cable said he believes this team has the talent to win.
I agree with Blanda but I will go one step further. If you are not going to throw the ball at all, and the other team knows it, why even have the receivers on the field. Bring in extra blockers.
Also, I would be very curious as to who called the TD play to Miller. It was stated the play calling was split. Now, I do believe that was a Davis mandate since the previous play calling wasn't getting the job done.
I'm giving it six games to see how it's going to shake out.
H
Just so you guys know, I'm not thrilled with some of the recent comments that are long on profanity, political tangents, etc.
I delete the ones that are clearly egregious, but I do want this to be a true open exchange of opinions and ideas, so I try not to err on the side of censorship.
I think that we can all agree that most of us continue to conduct a respectful, if sometimes heated, dialogue here at Raider Take.
Please don't let a few rogue commentators change your perception of this place or ourselves.
Take, there was no profanity in that e-mail I sent to H. ;-)
Here is an excellent example of the problems I have with the media. It is the perfect example of how false stories start to roll. Then, eventually, they get repeated a lot, and while completely false they almost become considered as historical fact.
From the Examiner, we have this tidbit.
"It was reported Cable he won a dinner from some of his players by beating them in a free throw shooting contest. On one hand, it would seem that it was a good way for Cable to build rapport with the guys under his tutelage. On the other hand, it is a concern that a 1-3 team in the middle of a coaching change would take the time to have a three point shooting contest. Once upon a time, Rich Gannon locked away the pool balls to force the guys to focus on football. Whilst Rich Gannon was the starting quarterback the Raiders had a winning record, and haven't since."
The that paragraph provide a link to the McDonald column which brought it up. According to McDonald:
"– At the conclusion of practice, Cable met with Russell, Kirk Morrison, Nnamdi Asomugha, Derrick Burgess at the middle of the field, with one of the players involved saying he the coach was simply getting feedback regarding his first two days as head coach.
"Said Cable: 'I had a feeling you were going to ask me that. We had a free-throw contest, and I beat all of them. So, they owe me dinner. That’s all it was.'"
So what was happening was that Cable was going to his team captains to discuss practices, and likely to tell them what he wanted from their units to help him out. Then, in order to keep the conversation private (in house), Cable made a joke of it.
But from this, we are now told by the Examiner, Cable is not able to keep his players focused. I'm wondering when PFT will pick that up and start reporting that Cable isn't doing his job. I'm wondering when Tim Kawakami will start taking Cable asside and asking him when he expects to be fired by Davis.
Warren Sapp has joined the Al lynch mob. Check it out:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8636486?MSNHPHCP>1=39002
RaiderMike
Here's another quote from Sapp: "I remember one time we had a defensive game plan because we were struggling against the run. We were going to get our safeties and put them up in the box and almost have a nine-man front. We practiced this thing 80 percent of the time on Wednesday and Thursday. We showed up that Friday morning, [defensive coordinator] Rob Ryan came in and he looked like someone had just shot his dog. He said he [Davis] pulled it on us ... He snatched the teeth out of our defense."
So either Sapp is flat-out lying or Mr. Davis does interfere with Ryan's planning and approach.
If that's true, and I were Davis, I might have told Ryan the same thing.
9 men in the box? That means that you only have two men to cover the area behind the box. If the runner gets through, it's an automatic TD. If they audible to a slant pattern, you're dead. If the HB or the FB gets outside of the box and the QB dumps off you're dead. For a team without an offense, it doesn't seem like a wise way to go.
It could just be that Davis and Ryan had a discussion and both decided against it.
Fact is, both Ryan and Davis say that kind of thing doesn't happen. Sapp wasn't at the meeting between Ryan and Davis. But I guess it's alright to make the assumption that the lie is Ryan's and not Sapp's. It could just be that Davis talked Ryan out of it, based on what I said above, and Ryan made the decision. The look like somebody just shot his dog may have been the realization that this team couldn't stop the run and there was no effective way to turn it around.
I didn't notice Sapp being stellar at stopping the run in his last two seasons here. But I guess that was Davis' fault.
BR, you forget that when a defense stacks 8, 9, 10, or 11 in a box; that the defense is playing a "Read-n-React" zone.
Stacking 9 in the box doesn't take away the backside help, but puts the defense in a position to use it's speed and intelligence to read and react to the play as it unfolds.
I'd buy an argument that our defense (at this time) was too young to have quick reactions to a play unfolding. Bottom line is this, Davis interferes too much with the game plan on both sides of the ball. It is time that the coaches take his advice as suggestions, and not gospel. At some point, you are going to have to realize the truth about Davis. And the truth is, even though it is not all Al's fault; he owns a pretty big share of fault. His suggestions/interference may not always be wrong, but they surely are not gospel truth either.
If Stuey was involved at all in anything requiring "read and react" it was prolly a good thing that it was vetoed, regardless of who did the vetoing.
Sapp took Al for tens of millions of dollars, did nothing besides underachieve and collect unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, and now throws the Raiders under the bus?
He can go fuck himself... sorry for the profanity.
This is perhaps the most revealing period I can remember in my 30+ years as a Raiders fan. I would say it's interesting, disturbing and very sad, all at the same time.
As I posted earlier, this period has taken a lot of speculation out of how we should perceive the issues that surround our team.
I find it kind of interesting regarding the pile on.
What did Davis do the other day besides fire Kiffin?
1. He hired exactly the kind of coach who works best with Al Davis.
2. He admitted that he's losing the ability to maintain the schedule he once did, and because of that and the greater size of the organization he now needs some help in the form of a GM type presence which he will bring in during the off season.
3. He took responsibility (i.e., the blame) for the last five years and acknowledges that it has taken a tremendous toll on him.
Yet the Al Davis gripes keep on coming. He has done, or acknowledged almost everything folks have asked of him on this site. That is, all except one. The "I hate Al Davis so much I wish he'd die" crowd has yet to be sated. So I guess we'll keep it up until they too are satisfied.
let's not gloss over the fact that tom cable was/is the 0-line coach.
this stirs up memories of joe bugal, art shell, bill callahan, all 0-line coaches picked by davis to be HC's.
not a great track record here.
By the way. One thing of note in all this. The last three games the tackling has been much better than at anytime last year. Yes, there was a fourth quarter let down in two of them, but the backs aren't piling up 150 plus games.
We are 18th in rushing defense.
As you can see, it only took the media a little over 24 hours to talk about Cable not getting the players to focus. It's the bye week for crying out loud.
H
You know I'm gonna get killed for this but lets look at the circumstances for the parade of coaches the last 6 years.
1) Gruden is here and has added stability and discipline to the team and for this wants to re-negotiate a long term deal with 2 years left on his contract. Al says we'll talk when there is one year left. Gruden says oh yea-I'm gone. All Al's fault-I don't think so.
2) Callahan is the logical choice to follow Gruden however an aging roster eventually robs Callahan of all his on field leadership after SB and Callahan eventually implodes. 4-12 and totally chaos in the lockerroom=necessary change.
3)Norv turner looks like the next comming of Bill Belechik (never really got a shot the first time, yada,yada). Norv a nice guy who does ok with great talent can't get mediocre Raiders and Kerry Collins to over acheive. No talent, no leaders,= 9 wins in 2 years. Norv really did nothing to make anybody beleive anything would ever change. See ya.
4) Art Shell. This one's all Al. Never got over the guilt of firing him 12 years earlier and all that loyalty stuff never had him thinking clearly. Total disaster. Emotions got in the way of decision making.
5)Kiffin. Al hires kid who's on NOBODY's radar for even coordinator position much less head coach. Al loves his enthusiasm his knowledge of the game and fresh attitude. Al walks out on a limb and hires him. This punk show his gratitude by scoping out other jobs half way through his first season and raping players,management, and coaches in the media. With this type of attitude along with less than stellar play calling and game management plus 5 wins in 2 seasons how do you possibly keep the guy.
So I know Al's mostly to blame but am I the only one who thinks this has also been a colaboration of worst case scenarios for the past 6 years. It's gotta turn around.
RaiderMike
Um, not quite. Callahan made John Gruden's offense work to the point it took us to a Super Bowl. The problem was that he didn't change it when he needed to, and wanted to change everything the next year.
Shell engineered a winning record after taking over for Shanarat. He took us to the playoffs several times, and once to the AFC Championship. The second time he was hired he was NOT an offensive line coach. He was an NFL executive. At best he was an ex-offensive line coach who had been out of the business for over five years.
The only clinker here was Bugel who got fired after one season. The big problem with Bugel was that he spent so much time with his lips pressed firmly against Al's behind that the players didn't respect him.
And don't forget, I'm an Al Davis fan. If I think Joe Bugel's ass kissing was over the top, it WAS over the top.
RaiderMike, too much detail. The modern fan cannot understand nuance. We currently live in a very animalistic society. Everything either is or it isn't. There are no abstracts.
My point is as bad as Al has been could there be a worse case of unforseen circumstances that occurred? And please don't give Shell to much credit on his first go round. Those teams was LOADED with talent.
RaiderMike
As far as Joe Bugel's tenure I have4 words for you: Jeff George Chester McGlockton. Nobody wins with those 2. Enough said.
RaiderMike
IIRC, Joe Bugel was the coach that outlawed swearing amongst the players. I seriously remember this.
I was thinking at the time... "He is coaching the RAIDERS here, not a girl scout troop... this is never going to work."
Shell didn't have that much talent in his first stint. He had no RB when Allen and Jackson were gone. We didn't really have a legitimate starter after Allen and Jackson until Wheatley came around. Kaufman wasn't a starter, but a change up guy. We had two good wide receivers for most of that time, but a big drop off after. And, surprisingly enough, the offensive line wasn't really that hot either.
>>>
Mike:
So I know Al's mostly to blame but am I the only one who thinks this has also been a colaboration of worst case scenarios for the past 6 years.
>>>
Nope! I am part of the choir you are preaching to brother!
One of the best things that Kiffin did was recruiting Knapp and Cable on board, and now they are hopefully going to steer us out of this quagmire.
Would an asswhipping of NO's fire the fan base up and make us forget this embarrassment? I sure think its a good start.
Blandarocked,
bugel lasted one season.
callahan lasted 2 season's.
shell 2 lasted one season.
shell 1 did go 5 yrs, but he had studs like marcus, bo, howie, & brown to keep him around.
like i said, bad track record.
The thing I remember most about Shell-1 was his incessant sitting on leads... it used to drive me crazy. You score a bunch of points one way and then you suddenly change it to try and run the clock out? Who does that?
Oh wait. Lane Kiffin too.
The twist of fate is that if Bo had not gotten his freak injury, Shell would prolly have won at least one ring, and there would have been no need to bring him back, and there would be no talk of this o-lineman coach curse.
Shell did have some very good defenses, especially early, just no way to score enough points with Jay Shroeder with Roger Craig on his last leg, and the Eric Dickerson on his last leg.
By the time Hos came on board, the defense started falling apart.
Shell lost Jackson in his first full season after going 12-4. In his second full season he stopped using Marcus Allen, calling him "a cancer in the locker room."
For a RB, most of Shell's term was used by Eric Dickerson and Nick Bell. However, his last year we scored by picking up KC's number two RB, Harvey Williams. Williams picked up one 1000 yard season and that was pretty much it.
Shell stopped using Marcus because Al told him not to use Marcus. Let's be fair here.
RaiderMike
My sentiments Gary on Kiffin bringing in Cable. He may have done more for this organization with that move than any Raider coach in recent memory. We will see.
RaiderMike
BR: I don't endorse your statement of "The only clinker here was Bugel who got fired after one season"
By definition, a "clinker" is a HC who (a) last 2 or less years (b) wins 7 or less games.
I feel very safe in saying we have had 7 to 8 clinkers spanning the past 20 seasons.
I hate to plug my own blog but I just spent 2+ hours crafting my unfiltered opinion on this subject.
Considering I have 2% of the readership/active commentators visiting my blog, I encourage RTs loyal contingency to at least stop by for a visit. You might be pleasantly surprised. If not, don't sweat it.
If you find my opinions worth a read and it translates to an increased level of dialog on this subject ... great.
By no means am I pandering for hits. As the few of you have visited my site have proably noticed, I have zero advsrtising on my blog. My sole intention is simply to share my views ... nothing more, nothing less.
For those of you who think I'm full of $hit, my opinions are baseless or wrongheaded, I've got no problems with you whatsoever. Raiders fans of all strips are comrades in arms to me.
Sincerely,
CJ ;0
>>>
My sentiments Gary on Kiffin bringing in Cable. He may have done more for this organization with that move than any Raider coach in recent memory. We will see.
>>>
I'm guessing these two are looking at seizing this once in a lifetime opportunity and running with it. This team is not that far off, and they can look like geniuses by simply making the Raiders a playoff team. I'm not so certain it might not happen this year yet... you heard it from me first! lol
CJ... your URL please?
Gary:
My URL: http://silverandblackforever.blogspot.com
or
You can click on my blogger logo or go to RT's 'Black Flag' links on his front page.
CJ ;0
In principle, a good happen, support the views of the author
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