The Raider Way Gone Astray
The debate about the state of the Raiders has been boiling over here, and some think I’ve been too harsh in my assessment of the situation.
It seems to come down to what we all think it means to be a Raiders fan. For some, it seems to be matter of blind loyalty and optimism, which, from my vantage, often becomes a camouflage for excusing and enabling.
Personally, it does me no good to sit here in Football Chernobyl and pretend I’m at Disneyland. If that makes me less of a Raiders fan, so be it. I don't see it that way, but others apparently do.
Sure, my assessments have been brutal. News flash: that's what happens when your performance is brutal over a six-year span. Either get better or deal with it.
One of the reasons many of us became Raiders fans is the “Just Win, Baby” philosophy championed by Mr. Davis.
This meant win at all costs, and the Raiders did. It was beautiful and innovative and effective.
Today, it's not win at all costs, but rather win as long as it doesn't come at the cost of changing our ways by pursuing a strong general manager and giving him independent authority, interviewing elite head coaching candidates and paying more to attract such candidates, not running with scissors in free agency, etc.
The Raider Way has lost its way. At least until further notice. If serious change is afoot, I'm still waiting for evidence.
I'm in it for the long run. But lowering the bar doesn't help the fans, nor does it help Mr. Davis attain his stated goal of reaching the Super Bowl between now and blessed eternity.
If our goal is a slow climb to 8-8, then I think we're right on target. High fives for everybody. Just .500, baby.
Personally, I expect more than that, and that expectation comes from what Mr. Davis himself taught me about Raiders football.
It seems to come down to what we all think it means to be a Raiders fan. For some, it seems to be matter of blind loyalty and optimism, which, from my vantage, often becomes a camouflage for excusing and enabling.
Personally, it does me no good to sit here in Football Chernobyl and pretend I’m at Disneyland. If that makes me less of a Raiders fan, so be it. I don't see it that way, but others apparently do.
Sure, my assessments have been brutal. News flash: that's what happens when your performance is brutal over a six-year span. Either get better or deal with it.
One of the reasons many of us became Raiders fans is the “Just Win, Baby” philosophy championed by Mr. Davis.
This meant win at all costs, and the Raiders did. It was beautiful and innovative and effective.
Today, it's not win at all costs, but rather win as long as it doesn't come at the cost of changing our ways by pursuing a strong general manager and giving him independent authority, interviewing elite head coaching candidates and paying more to attract such candidates, not running with scissors in free agency, etc.
The Raider Way has lost its way. At least until further notice. If serious change is afoot, I'm still waiting for evidence.
I'm in it for the long run. But lowering the bar doesn't help the fans, nor does it help Mr. Davis attain his stated goal of reaching the Super Bowl between now and blessed eternity.
If our goal is a slow climb to 8-8, then I think we're right on target. High fives for everybody. Just .500, baby.
Personally, I expect more than that, and that expectation comes from what Mr. Davis himself taught me about Raiders football.
posted by Raider Take at 2:26 PM
429 Comments:
"Personally, it does me no good to sit here in Football Chernobyl and pretend I’m at Disneyland."
Probably one of my favorite all-time RT lines.
Let's call it what it is and stop pretending it's something else. See, you said it much better.
Gruden has been fired in Tampa!!!
Could he come back and lead us again to greatness?!?!
Bruce Allen, too. Bring him back.
If Al Davis is serious about turning the ship around, he will bring them both back
At least bring back Bruce Allen. Please!
I'm sure it doesn't bode well in Gruden's favor that Cable just beat him. Plus, Cable is a hardcore Raiders and Al Davis fan.
Raidertake,
of course you are right.
but it's not so much that the "Raiderway" is a failure. it's more so the raiders have no way at all, or are always changing their ways.
afterall, what is "Raider football", anyway. well, i'm sure many of us here grew up watching the same things.
deep passing. power running, behind a huge, tough, physical 0-line.
an offense where everyone, te's, rb's, everyone was involved in the passing game. it worked.
it really isn't much different today. it's just that the scatter brained raiders cannot focus on anything for too long a time.
that, and the fact that they have lacked talent.
on defense, sure it was a simple plan. eleven, big, tough, physical, rampaging outlaws, chasing down anyone, and everyone that wore a different uniform.
hitting hard from the first snap to the last.
intimidation through bone crushing tackling, rather then the "shoving" after the whistle we see today.
is this outdated ? i don't think so. it can still work.
the problem is the raiders do not play "Raider football".
instead, they fire their HC's after a year or two, and change the plan constantly.
plus, they do not have the talent to play the type of football which made them unique.
so on it goes, around in circles, with no end in sight.
each time, al davis tells us he will fix it, only to drag it further away from it's raider roots.
it has to end, but this off season is just a sad conituation.
Ha, gruden will prolly end up in KC beating al's butt a million times.
Right on the money Take!
Roy
Gotta feel great that we put the final cap in his ass with the last game!
Die you dog! Die!
RaiderMike
I feel you and agree. But let's not forget that Sundays are much better when we have a team to root for instead of sitting in front of the TV like some bandwagon fan who only cheers for whoever the pre-game show picked to win.
We have a long way to go but think how good it will feel once we're back.
At least we're not Lions fans!
I'd take Allen back as GM. Gru at HC? Probably not. Maybe as OC--but then I'd rather have Trestman at OC.
JMHO
---Jeff
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/01/16/sports/s152533S16.DTL
I WOULD SNAG THIS GUY IN A FREAKIN HEARTBEAT!!!!!!
GIVE HIM AND ALLEN ANY $ THEY WANT!!!! WE NEED 'EM!
ain't gonna happen though folks. davis has too much pride thats too big to swallow.
The big question I have is why doesn't Al load all the cannons and go out blazing on 1 last push for a SB? Is it ego? Health? Inability to give up power/control? Or all of the above?
Since it seems evident that Al will be assembling the majority of the staff without the aid of a strong GM, here's what I would propose:
Make an aggressive move to interview and hire DC Spagnolo as your new HC. Everything I've read about this guy is that he has leadership abilities in spades. There is a good chance the Lambs will hire Leslie Frazier and the BiPlanes will hire Rex Ryan. That leaves Spags w/o a true HC opportunity.
Next, hire Haslett as your DC. This guy has some ties to the Raiders and has been a DC and HC. He is also a fire and brimstone leader who should turn our dogs of war on D loose.
Next, rehire Trestman as OC. Once again, the Raider ties makes it a familiar face for Al. Trestman is an excellent playcaller and innovator. He did well for the Raiders in the early part of the decade. It wasn't until the team was too loaded with aging, ailing vets that the house of cards came tumbling down.
Resign Cable to be your OLine/Asst Head Coach with the caveat of an opportunity to become a HC in 3 to 5 years.
Hire Moss as our LBs coach. Yes, the Raiders would probably need to ask permission w/the Packers but I'm sure it could be worked out.
Hire Jim Fassell as the QB Coach where he has done some of his best work. Fassell is just itching to get back on the playing field, coach, and break down film.
Hire Gilbride as Asst GM. Yes, Assistant GM. Assistant to Al w/o full authority. This is still a move in the right direction to have another experienced football mind to do some of the heavy lifting for Al.
In summary:
Asst GM: Gilbride
HC: Spanolo
DC: Hasslett
OC: Trestman
OLine/Asst HC: Cable
LB Coach: Moss
QB Coach: Fassell
Sure this might be a pipe dream but all of these guys in these particular slots are qualified to do a bang up job. All of them, excluding Spags, due to their current circumstances might actually sign the dotted line.
Between recommendations from the 7 men listed above, all the other holes to the staff could be easily filled.
Just food for thought.
Yes, the line ""Personally, it does me no good to sit here in Football Chernobyl and pretend I’m at Disneyland." is one of my favorite lines. Classic, RT!
There are some talented coaches (and GMs) out there... which begs the question; why aren't we pushing buttons?
The Jets were to have a second interview with Spagnola, and I know other teams have contacted and/or interviewed him.
NYR: What bothers and disappoints me is that there are 3 very distinct paths that Al can take.
Path 1:
Turn over every rock and aggressively contact and interview as many well qualified, multiple candidates as possible for GM,HC,OC, DC.
Path 2:
Find the best qualified candidates that he has relationships with, ties to the Raiders, and/or in unique circumstances.
Path 3:
Settle on selections after picking from 1 to 2 unqualified candidates.
Path 1 seems completely written off based on the lack of activity the past 3 weeks.
Path 2 is a logical, reasonable, and realistic goal to attain. (see my previous post).
Path 3 is waving the white flag.
RT...
Sincerely I hope I in no way offended you....There was absolutely NO intent...My comments about "Respect" stem from weeks of bashing and were never directed at the prapitor here...Nor did I ever intend to question anyone personnel commitment as a fan...I am just a little sensitive about Al Davis and the legacy he will leave behind and the eventual loss we will all have....
As to "Grud-Dumb" being fired....Ha!Ha! Ha!....I made mention of the talk that his job was on the line before the game and also about the possibility that "ShanaAss" would get run from Denver and the talk in KC about Herm Edwards which may still happen....I am so glad to see this talk come true....Ya! Hooo!...
"Chucky" is dead....
PantyRaider....DeLighted!!!/_
The news is Davis is now interviewing former Raiders assistant coaches to see who might stick around (waiting of course until after the best assistants have signed elsewhere).
Looks like Davis will assemble the staff, then hire a HC, then possibly hire a GM. What's wrong with that picture... besides everything?
Calico Jack, I'm seeing strong evidence for Path #3.
No worries, PantyRaider. I just saw my earlier reply as a kernel of a larger take, in no way directed at you! I appreciate you keeping me on my toes.
Gruden and Allen huh??...
...quote...
http://tinyurl.com/7jrqcd
He and Allen, one league rival said Friday night, ran the team like the Nixon White House, communicating poorly with the public and running the teams with an our-way-or-the-highway approach, even when the results of the team didn't merit regal treatment from the public or the media.
...end quote...
And they are one of 12 teams to not win a playoff game since they won the SB.. which puts them exactly in the same category as the Raiders.
Yea, gimmee some of that!!! Gruden needs to take his ego to a team with all the pieces in place like he did at TB his first year... he becomes nothing more than a tyrant anywhere else, as he would be with the Raiders.
And RT.. I think you were projecting when you said I jumped the shark.
Pretending a RB's coach is a great loss because we had a RB gain 1000 yards once is definitely in shark jumping territory.
Your ego just can't handle anyone disagreeing with you.
>>>>
Looks like Davis will assemble the staff, then hire a HC, then possibly hire a GM. What's wrong with that picture... besides everything?
>>>
And THIS isn't jumping the shark RT???
NY takes every action that Al does as proof of incompetence.
I wouldn't be surprised if NY whined about a cheerleader being replaced.. and pounded his fists that HE GOT RID OF THE CUTE BLONDE ON THE END... HE IS CRAZY CRAZY I TELL YOU!!!!!
Have I said lately how much I think Al is crazy??
Good gawd... Raider Tooth Surgery instead of Raider Take.
Gary,
you want proof of al's incompetence.
why don't you check out our 11 loss seasons al has cornered the market on.
how do we lose these 11 games every year ?
it's, as NYR says, al hires the staff, then the HC, and then, maybe, only maybe, will al think about hiring a GM.
incompetence, insanity, you can choose the word.
all i know is, al does the same thing every time, and the results(11 defeats), are always the same.
i need no further proof.
Here's an ironic thought (some will say moronic):
Chuckie succeeded here because Al let him have his own players, SPECIFICALLY a QB. TB never got Chuckie a QB.
Sure Al forced JP and a few others on him, but Chuckie could accept that and live with it, even if he didn't like it. I think Cable is similar in that he can accept and run with an upstairs decission even if he doesn't necessarily agree with it 100%.
I digress. I would love to have Chuckie back, but I wouldn't bet on it (unless I had killer odds).
But here's the question, do you want him as HC or OC?
Could he handle being OC for Cable? I don't think Chuckie ever takes that demotion. Teams are going to be lining up to hire him, and unfortunately there's a fair chance he ends up in the AFCW.
Does he want to come back to uncle Al? Maybe. He's probably DROOLLING all over our backfield.
Maybe we do bring him in, and give Cable assistant-coach and o-line. That could let Chuckie get our shit together again for 3 or 4 years, and hopefully then hand it over for the TC-II regeim.
This also keeps Cable hungry, because he's been interim-HC, assistant-HC, but never actual HNIC.
Plus, bringing in Gruden almost locks up keeping lechler :-)
-moshbucket
and for those that would like to see bruce allen return i have a question.
name me one really good player that was drafted while allen was GM ??
NO "CHUCKY" in Oaktown....
Talk about "Locker Room" agitator just look at what he does to "RB"s and tell me why the hell anyone would want the bastard back....Gannon made "Chucky" here and that "TB"-"D" made him there...Once he put his filthy hands in the pie it rotted...
PantyRaider....Just Laughing Baby!!!/_
Failing to develop and play draft picks was the one area I thought Gruden failed, but you have to balance that against all the vets that were brought in - Gannon, Garner, Wheatley, Woodson, Romo, Rice, and others. Getting over the hump of consecutive 8-8 seasons, to make the playoffs as legitimate Super Bowl contenders was worth it. Based on their time here you have to assume that was the plan. Tampa has worked the same way since they've been there.
When Allen left the bill came due however, and we had no one to replace those aged veterans, and no management team in place to develop a change of plans. I think that's the reason Gruden/Allen didn't have the same success in Tampa - they didn't have an owner willing to spend the money (look at their cap) and anyone who was able to challenge their authority. They may have had to convince Davis of things, but once they did Davis spent the dollars to bring in the talent. We saw the hits, but who knows if there were any misses that were avoided because Davis didn't go for it?
I'd take Allen back in a heartbeat, and Gruden as well. I doubt the prior situation would preclude Al from checking it out, as they've both been respectful sine they've left. As long as there is no bad blood that we don't know about, who knows?
That would be a MAJOR change in the Raiders that I would like to see....
BRUCE ALLEN AS GM
JON GRUDEN AS COACH
GET THEM BACK HERE!!!!
Gary - you are, as RT likes to say, running with scissors. It's truly sad that Davis has in fact operated the Raiders organization with incompetence and, yes, insanity. That’s not based on speculation or innuendo. It’s based on hard evidence, the likes of which have been repeated over and over on this board but you refuse to accept.
Insanity = repeating the same actions over and over and expecting different results (a web you have fallen into with respect to the way the Raiders operate).
(Administrative) Incompetence = dysfunctional administrative behaviors that hinder attainment of organization goals.
I try not to get too wrapped up in speculation. Every day I search for any shred of evidence to prove I am wrong, and will be the first to admit it once I find that evidence.
Now, to your point that Tampa Bay, by virtue of not winning a playoff game since the SB, "puts them exactly in the same category as the Raiders." LOL.
Tampa Bay has 45 regular season wins since 2002 (compared to the Raiders’ 24), and they’ve won two division titles. The Raiders have six straight 11-loss seasons and, if something doesn’t change regarding the manner in which they go about their business, they have a good shot at seven straight. It’s a fact!
I’m quite sure I’m grounded with these facts. Are you?
PS bringing in new talent at Cheerleader is always a good thing! But even that requires auditions and interviews, right? Dare I say we have better management of our cheerleader squad than we do of our team....
raider00 said, "name me one really good player that was drafted while allen was GM ??"
From 1996-2003: Darrell Russell (1997), Mo Collins (1998), Matt Stinchcomb (1999), Janikowski (2000), Lechler (2000), 2001 was not stellar, Napoleon Harris (2002), Langston Walker (2002), Ronald Curry (2002), Nnamdi Asomugah (2003), and Justin Fargas (2003).
Now the more important part of his role raider00: How many quality Free Agents did he bring in on top of that draft? Do you need me to rehash that?
Davis would hire the Cheerleaders before he ever would hire the cheerleading coach. No way the coach gets to pick her own squad in Oakland lol.
Is this list supposed to represent good drafting?
Darrell Russell (1997),1 good season a few mediocre seasons, before plunging head into a drug habit he couldn't kick
Matt Stinchcomb (1999), No good seasons, under achiever
Napoleon Harris (2002), Never did anything for us
Langston Walker (2002), all size no skill
Ronald Curry (2002)Really? He has played 10-14 good games in 6 seasons, hardly something to tout
and Justin Fargas (2003), correct me if I am wrong but Allen wasn't even around in 2003, but drafting Fargas does not a successful draft make.
That entire list is all sizzle and no steak.
Roy
RaiderNate 75,
as Roy already pointed out, many of those names you mentioned were failed dfart picks.
mo collins, lang walker, and mett stinchcomb stuck around for a while on the al davis scholarship program, but never really had any impact at all.
nap harris had one really good season, but then became mediocre.
r. curry and d. russell showed great promise, but due to injuries(curry) and no work ethic (russell), they turned out busts.
jano is an excellent kicker, but, worth a 1st rounder ? i don't know.
fargas plays hard, but lacks great talent.
and Nnamdi, well, you got me there.
all in all, i think bruce allens drafts were rather underwhelming.
did he bring in the free agents, or was it al davis' cash ?
i will say this for allen. he understood grudens vision of the west coast offense, and together, with al davis, they built a team that went to the super bowl. that is a worthy accomplishment.
however, the allen, gruden, davis, team was built on old legs, and could not cross the finish line.
Can't a guy like Bruce Allen bring other things to the Raiders, such as his network of contacts (some of which may not deal with Davis) as well as provide a means for improved communication throughout the organization? We need a GM, and if Bruce Allen is the only guy Al Davis will trust, then by all means.
Besides, since when does Davis allow anyone else to pick (early) in the draft? He said himself that his HC didn't want to draft Russell, yet he went ahead and drafted the $60 million investment anyway. If true (i.e., the way Davis recalls), and all things being equal, he should have fired his sub-$2.0 million year coach right on the spot.
"mo collins, lang walker"...
They played very well and were instrimental in getting us in that "SB"...Problem was the "C" Melt-Down crashed the whole unit...Once we lost Collins-n-Walker our "OL" went into the dumper and has stayed there a long time...But with them we consistantly had 1000yd seasons from the "RB"s...Nap-n-Wheatly-n-the "RB" we got from "KC" but I don't remember his name...
Gannon had protection and the "WR"s had time for paterns to develop...I would love to have those guys back and Walker blocking "FG" again...
PantyRaider...Go Back-n-Watch Film!!!/_
NYRaider,
if bruce allen's network of contacts is his best asset, i'll pass.
just looking at his drafts with the raiders, and even tampa, there is not much good to observe.
you can't sustain a winning team for long on free agents alone.
a team needs the constant flow of young blood via the draft to keep climbing.
you are right though, al will prolly be making the picks anyway.
make way for the new defensive backs !!!!!
Gary, you pounced on my simple lament about losing a position coach by shouting me down and saying that Rathman was "mediocre" and underachieving, without giving a single shred of evidence to back up those adjectives. I'm still waiting.
In defense of my simple lament, and being a fan of evidence, I pointed out that the Raiders ranked in the top third in rushing in the AFC (and NFL) over the past two seasons, which is far from mediocre and underachieving, especially considering the larger state of our offense (putrid).
Furthermore, I pointed out that Fargas rushing for 1,000+ yards in a season is a case of overachievement, as he'd never done it before, and I doubt he'll do it again.
The Raiders ranked 6th in rushing in the NFL in 2007 with a tandem of Fargas, a lame duck Jordan, a largely invisible Rhodes, and a non-playing Bush. That Rathman! He sucks! Why weren't we #1?
I'm catching on to the tactic. Goad me into a response with absurd statements, then act like I'm the one making a federal case out of something when I respond, all without ever bothering to back up the original statements.
Apparently, this tactic now includes calling me an egotist.
Rathman wasn't that big a deal to me until someone came in here ranting about how awful he was.
A common sense explanation fo the ST's replacement, instead of hysteria and fist pounding:
Fom Jmac:
In other news, John Fassel was officially promoted as the Raiders
special teams coach. Fassel had an agreement in place that if Brian
Schneider were to receive another job, he would become the next special
teams coach.
Special teams is the one part of practice open to the media, and it was
evident that Fassel was doing a lot more than just listen to Schneider talk.
>>>
Rathman wasn't that big a deal to me until someone came in here ranting about how awful he was.
>>>>
I wouldn't have even mentioned it if not for you whining about it at least three times, RT. Quit lying.
I mentioned that Cable was unable to keep Rathman from fleeing to the Niners. That's it. I don't need to lie, because anyone can go back to the previous take and see for themselves. I mentioned him a second time, but only in the larger context of how Cable would handle rebuilding the staff. Then you pounced with all of your shouting about how I think Rathman is God's gift to coaching and how you think he's mediocre and underachieving. It's all there.
Meanwhile, you're proving my point by still refusing to back up your adjectives. That says it all. Out.
Also, I don't appreciate being called a liar and an egotist.
I don't think I've earned those labels.
Maybe that's just because I'm an egotist?
Could it be that NFL365 was on to something?:
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/raiders/archives/018691.html
The last time the Raiders had a good “OL” it took us to the “SB” but as it turns out that was a “Bi-Polar” “OL” as characterized by the “C” Barrette Robbins…Which leads me to my New concept of a…
“Bi-Polar Offence”….
As you know I am campaigning for the acquisition of Michael “DogMan” Vick sense we don’t have a #2 “QB” worthy to be on our roster and he has great talent and would come cheap…”DogMan” would be the (-) pole and “JRus” would be the (+) pole…2 contrasting types of Personalities, Players-n-Packages….The 3P’s….
We also have a 2 headed monster at “RB” in Bush-n-”McFab” with Luis Rankin waiting in the wings…Young “WR”s who are developing nicely and the possibility of bringing in a Vet like Fitzgerald and a draft pick….2 “FB”s and one quality “TE” as our specialty players…
Now we only have one ball so how do we get everyone well involved in the game…Keep them fresh…Keep the “D” off balance…Stay motivated and excessively productive…”Competition”…A story of Halves….
1st Half (+) pole Power Football -w- “JRus”…Bush…1st “FB” -n- 1st core of “WR”s -n- Luis Rankin as the Change of Pace “RB”….
2nd Half (-) pole Speed Football -w- “DogMan”…”McFab”…2nd “FB” -n- 2nd core of “WR”s and again Luis Rankin or Fargas are the Change of Pace “RB”s…Miller is consistent at “TE” and the “OL” has regular substitutions in the “ZBS“….
But now that’s only Half the Polar-Pie….We have reportedly interviewed Gilbride for a position so that constitutes the other half of the “OC” Polarity…Cable calls the 1st Half (+) Polarity but Gilbride calls the 2nd Half (-) Polarity or visa-versa….Thus you have a fully Bi-Polar “O” and the “D” has to prepare for 2 entirely different “O”s each -n- every week….Half-Time adjustments are of NO use…A “D” may stack up well against one Pole but not the opposite….
Smash-Mouth Power Football in the 1st half wares down the “D” and in the second half on tired legs they must make chase on a Speed Play-Action Slash-Trickster “O” with a totally different style of play -n- Play Caller Tendencies….Bi-Polar at it’s best…
So now you can all be glad Al owns the team and not someone like me who could not help but to inject themselves into the personality of the “O”….
“D” to follow….
So what would you do if given the Al Davis position…Besides hire a “GM” and let him run the entire show….I won’t believe that for a moment…The 1st time your 1-4 going into the break and the fans are crying for results how long do you sit on your hands….Hell…None of us can resist having our input here so how the hell would any of us resist if really given the opportunity of “OwnerShip”….How many nights have you laid awake dreaming of having “OwnerShip” some day….Now be honest…
PantyRaider….Contrasting Thoughts in Reverse!!!/_
All the talk about Bruce Allen's drafts is a moot point and non issue for 1 simple fact:
Bruce Allen was not involved in the drafts.
Bruce Allen was largely involved in free agency, cap managment, and a buffer between Gruden and Davis.
==================================
To date, we have promoted 2 "quality control" asssitants;
John Fassell to STC and Lal Sinjay to WR Coach ... sorry folks but these are 2 very inexperienced, wet behind the ears promotions that are very difficult to get excited about.
Martindale as DC won't exactly get my juices flowing with adreneline either. Martindale has not earned a promotion but will probably get the gig with little competition because he is a "good company man".
After six miserable seasons of 11+ losses and 3 weeks of an unispiring assembling of a coaching staff, I'm at the stage where I feel more than justified to have the following feelings:
#1 The trust that "the Raiders best years are in the future" has been broken until I see tangible change to the contrary.
#2 I will continue to be an ardent fan but all the kool aid drinkers and myopic fans noise falls on deaf ears.
To date there has not been 1 single piece of news that would lead me to believe that we are on the right track.
I seriously hope that I'm pleasantly suprised by an inspiring choice(s) to fill our bullet ridden staff holes.
When the entire staff is finally assembled, it will be interesting to reconvene on this topic. The question will be whether or not we hired 1 single coach who is an upgrade over the previous coach. If the answer is "no", the due dilligence arguments will be very much valid.
The process of putting together a complete staff requires a vision, leadership, and a lot of hard work. If there isn't a vision, leadership, or robust effort, the results (downgrades) will speak for themselves.
With the "Senior Bowl Week" starting tomorrow, one would think that at least the key players of the Raiders management and coaching staff would be in place, ala a GM and a head coach.
Davis has had months (since firing Kiffin) to formulate a plan and implement it; yet the Raiders are the only team that really looks like it has no clue what to do.
Rams just hired Spagnola from the Giants. A smart choice based on his body of work, e.g., taking a 25th ranked defense to the SB and beating up Tom Brady for the win. Impressive! Yeah, the Raiders didn't even request an interview with the man.
Spagnola was hired from a list a five finalists for the Rams HC vacancy.
The Raiders have only interviewed three candidates for head coach. I wonder who their finalists are?
It's pointless to bitch and moan about "they interviewed 5 people and we only interviewed 3...".
Everyone knows Al is more secretive (the most?) about the whole job search/hiring/etc thing than other teams.
And you can't necissarrily compare the individual coaches one by one, you have to compare them as a staff.
And finally, if you look at any coaches resume, you'll usually see some teams that were good and some teams that sucked. Al's making these decisions based on ALOT more info than any of us have.
Sure, I know, I'm full of shite, and Al has totally lost it.
From J-Mac
"As for Gruden, Herrera called speculation of a return “reckless,’’ and noted, “there are no hard feelings, no bad blood that would stand in the way of anything. His record was OK at Tampa Bay, but just OK. We’ve been down that road.’’
OK, so when exactly IS Al going to interview experienced head coaches with better records than Gruden?
Anon 7:59 said: "And you can't (necessarily) compare the individual coaches one by one, you have to compare them as a staff."
I agree, I think. The coaches should be a cohesive unit. That cohesion should start from the HC down, not the other way around. Right? So why are assistant to assistant coaches being promoted to assistant coach without the head coach making those appointments?
Doesn’t this process inherently diminish the HC’s authority?
And don't be fooled by the Raiders' so-called secretiveness. If the Raiders contact anyone of significant importance, the media is all over it. Today they are busy denying Gruden will return and also signing Zack Crockett to the personnel dept. That’s the big news today.
Calico,
if bruce allen was not a true GM in the sense that he was not involved in the draft choices.
we may have to go all the way back to ron wolf as the last time al davis had some help in evaluating draft talent.
NyRaider,
of course al davis did not request an interview with tom spagnuola.
al davis believes that defense is an after thought. he will never hire a top defensive coach to be HC of the raiders.
instead, he goes after the giants OFFENSIVE CO. kevin gilbride.
because we all know the giants won the SB, not because of the defensive beatdown they put on the pats, but rather gilbrides explosive offense...laugh, laugh.
al davis doesn't have even one little, tiny clue antmore.
Remember during the Kiffin saga, when folks were telling me that it wasn't the Raiders' style to refute things, that the Raiders see no point in talking to the media and shooting down rumors?
Now we've got John Herrera speaking every day, refuting even the most fleeting, inconsequential rumors.
If I were to speculate that Mr. Davis had a tuna fish salad for lunch, I wouldn't be surprised if Herrera called to tell me it was chicken salad, not tuna fish.
it prolly takes al davis so long to decide what to have for lunch, he doesn't eat it unil midnight.
RT, my apologies, you whined that we lost Rathman, then you whined about how we will replace Rathman... you didn't mention him three times. But then there is this:
>>>
Then you pounced with all of your shouting about how I think Rathman is God's gift to coaching
>>>
A lie. I asked you what you saw in Rathman to make you think he was such a great loss. Your answer was because Fargas ran for a 1000 yards and we had a top ranked running game. I responded that the running game is mostly credited to the O-line improvements, and we are prolly going to PROMOTE THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE for it, but you are instead whining about losing a position coach???
It's all still there to see.
>>>>
and how you think he's mediocre and underachieving.
>>>>
I think I said the RB situation in general was mediocre and underachieving. I think the o-line situation was OVER-ACHIEVING. In my mind, we kept the right person.
Why would you disagree?
>>>>
To date there has not been 1 single piece of news that would lead me to believe that we are on the right track.
>>>>
Yes, heaven forbid you wait until we actually have a coaching staff in place or something.
I mean, training camp opens in a few weeks, right?
Gary, calling me a liar is fighting words.
I don't view our exchange the way you do. People can go back and look and decide for themselves (although I doubt anyone cares at this point). Calling me a liar is a game changer.
I'm happy for you that Rathman is gone, because it really seems important to you.
I'm thrilled that you can see right through those troublesome stats and give the o-line all the credit, despite the fact that the o-line has been in the top third in the NFL in sacks allowed for the past two seasons while the rushing unit has been in the top third in yards gained. It all makes perfect sense to me now. I give up. You win.
Now how about that coaching staff of ours?
RT, the o-line and the ZBS was designed to help the run, which is exactly what Kiffin wanted to do. It's a SURPRISE to you that it still gave up a lot of sacks when it wasn't designed for pass protection? Cmon.
And my point wasn't even about Rathman... it was to point out how you IAAFers glob on to every possible thing you can think of that proves we are DOOOOOOOMED!!!!!
What IS next??? I honestly think some of you people WOULD use cheerleader choices as prove of incompetence. I kinda drives me nutso.
Here's more:
"#2 I will continue to be an ardent fan but all the kool aid drinkers and myopic fans noise falls on deaf ears."
If myopia means not searching through the peanuts floating around in the Raider facilities toilets as evidence of incompetence, and not pounding my fists on the ground in desperation because gawddamnit, things aren't perfectly set up yet BEFORE THIS YEARS SEASON IS EVEN DONE YET... then yes, I am myopic to the 100th degree.
Gary:
Fair enough. I sincerey apologize for being so impatient. You are right. Let's just sit back and take our time. What's the rush? The NFL isn't a 365/24/7 business. The coaching staff can work on the playbook, schemes, break down film, etc later. With senior bowls, all star games, combine, draft, free agency, OTAs, mini camp ... there isn't anything to prepare for before training camp.
On a serious note:
I hope I'm wrong. I hope we hire a top notch staff. I hope that we have a few hidden tricks up our sleeve. We shall see when the staff is completed.
Sorry, I thought that pass protection was the o-line's main objective on a passing play, and that a line's performance on that front was a good indicator of its overall ability and talent level. My bad.
Gary:
Myopia means pretending that our process for hiring a coaching staff isn't dysfunctional.
Myopia means acting like having a vacancy at GM is "no big deal".
Myopia means "everything is ok" in spite of six consecutive 11+ loss seasons. A record in futility.
Hey Gary, here’s a newsflash for you; the emperor isn't wearing any cloths.
There is no reason to believe the same failed process is going to work this time. Please tell us "again" how you see it working.
I'm so desperate for the answer, I'm willing to listen to anything.
Watching the Cardinals in the NFC Championship Game today should be a wake-up call for all Raiders loyalists.
Gary:
You make the claim that some of us are on a mission to prove there is incompetence.
I hate to break the news to you but win/loss record is the only thing that needs to be used as proof.
Answer this 1 simple question:
Would you agree that to have six consecutive seasons of 11 or more losses is the definition of incompetence? (Yes or No).
I can handle PAST incompetence as long as there are tangible changes being made to rectify, resolve, improve, progress, move forward.
That's a tough one, Calico Jack. Let me think about it.
Give it up Gary. Calico Jack and Raidertake are eatin your lunch. And it sure is funny to read. lol
GatorRaider
RT...
Celebrate the change...last year we were all noting that it's inexcusable to let these rumors go un-denied....Now they are all being attacked immediately...Come-on Bro...We got what we wanted...Just be happy Baby...Celebrate with me...Is that not real change...
The only thing that drives me "NUT"s at this point is that everything done or NOT done is immediately jumped upon as (-) without any legitimate evaluations...So now take a small look...
"HC"...If Cable...(+)s...Continuity, involvement in coach interviews and being allowed to assemble his own staff, loved by the players, respected by the "Mediot"s, loyal to "MrD", responsible for the improved play of the "OL", ended some scholarships, creative in play-calling at years end which helped secure season ending victories, was able to inspire a losing team with nothing on the line to come out and play their freaking hearts out to "V", got Bush his biggest production of the year, showed good improvement at "QB" for his rookie, got young "WR"s involved in the game for big plays, gave the fans-n-players some year-end hope...
(-)s...Has only 3/4 years experience as "IHC", was never a "HC" before, made some bone-headed calls early on, the team did not play constantly until the end when it was already over, did not use his toys wisely off the start, perhaps is a "Yes-Man" to Al Davis..What did I miss...
If it's all the same to ya all here I will take these (+)s and look forward to the new season...Now please begin to break-down the rest of the new coaching staff and than at the end let's all take a real serious look at it and do a legitimate evaluation with legitimate reasoning....NOT JUST CRY-BABY posting that we did not talk to "So-n-So" without any evaluation of what we lost or CRYING that "So-n-"So" got "So-n-So" but we never even tried to talk to him...So Freaking What...How the hell did that cost us....
PantyRaider....Now Just Give It Up Baby!!!!/_
“It’s not the message that’s important but it’s our obedience to it.”
Al Davis is the ultimate puppet master!
John Herrera. Sit down and shut the hell up.
Who the hell is this guy? Now all of a sudden his the Raiders’ official PR person? Come on already. Any breaking news; and this guy stands up and refutes everything. It’s a media conspiracy and Al uses John like ventriloquist uses a puppet.
I am tired of all “potential candidates” that Al wants to interview or not.
I mean come on; Zack Crockett is the newly appointed Player Personal/Scout Executive? What the hell is that title and where did it come from? Wasn’t Zack sent packing, now he’s back again? Guess Al does value player and owner loyalty than he does winning.
We are not moving forward.
And for the last 6 years we haven’t moved forward.
Kevin Gill “Stuck” Bride and Jim “the Wesel” Fassel, are potential candidates to coach the Raiders, says the Newark Star Ledger. Promoting 2 assist. Coaches to positions they haven’t had extensive coaching experience in. What does that message send out to the outside world?
Why would guys like Steve Spagnuolo, Josh McDaniels, Jim Schwartz or any other candidate want to walk into a NFL team and not have the ability to choose who they’d like to have on their staff?
“I can’t win with this guy, I can’t win with this guy,” Said Lane speaking of Ryan. “Well do the honorable thing and quit,” instructed Al.
This line of reasoning just goes to show you, why anyone in their right frame of mind, this league would want to work for someone who does not believe in your abilities?
“I don’t want to win in the media, I want to win on the field,” Al said this during his press conference with Kiffin being axed.
Do we seriously think Al will turn this thing around? Nope, not in my estimation, I believe we are looking at another losing season yet again.
And guess what, we’ll all be here again in 2010 asking the same questions and getting the same answers from Herrera.
I am done with the level of incompetence that Al Davis so lavishes himself in time and time again. It’s my way or the high attitude that has us in the tumultuous predicament.
Mr. Duva
http://www.ibabuzz.com/
raidersblog/
2009/01/18/
raiders-losing-the-100-yard-war/#more-3656
Jerry MaC delivers yet another sound piece of journalism.
Mr. Duva
Mr. Duva...
Congrats...You failed to break-down one single legitimate evaluation of this team...Just slinging the same "Shit" at the wall to see what sticks....or stinks...
PantyRaider....Meet the Chalenges!!!/_
"Congrats...You failed to break-down one single legitimate evaluation of this team...Just slinging the same "Shit" at the wall to see what sticks....or stinks...
PantyRaider....Meet the Chalenges!!!/_"
I did Panty...read Jerry's Blog piece I posted. Besides, you obviously like the same"Shit" you see from the Raiders, huh?
Mr. Duva.....Met Your Challenges Baby!!!!!!!
Mr. Duva...
OK...I will read it but I don't let the freaking "Mediot"s rule my football life...Do you...After all the "Bull-Shit" posted by the bastards who the hell can you trust anything they say....I don't...Now that's consistency and well earned by them...
PantyRaider...Looking For Your Challenge!!!/_
PR: The article that Mr. Duva cited has nothing to do with what the "mediots" are espousing. Instead it have everything to do with actual results:
"As you watch Baltimore and Pittsburgh struggle to gain inches on the ground in today’s AFC championship game, keep in mind the Raiders, their search for a defensive coordinator to replace Rob Ryan, and the importance of a coach, philosophy and the right players to stop the run.
The Ravens haven’t allowed an individual runner to gain 100 yards in 38 regular and post-season games, dating back to a 23-carry, 120-yard effort by Kansas City’s Larry Johnson on Dec. 10, 2006.
During that span, the Raiders have given up more than 100 yards to a running back 19 times.
Working in reverse order:
Player, team, tcb-yds
Sammy Morris, NE, 14-117
Ronnie Brown, Mia, 16-101
DeAngelo Williams, Car, 19-140
Michael Turner, Atl, 30-139
Thomas Jones, NYJ, 24-159
LaDainian Tomlinson, SD 20-106
Fred Taylor, Jac, 7-111
Ryan Grant, GB, 29-156
Kolby Smith, KC 31-150
Chester Taylor, Min, 22-164
Ron Dayne, Hou, 21-122
LenDale White, Ten, 25-133
Larry Johnson, KC, 24-112
LaDainian Tomlinson, SD, 24-198
Ronnie Brown, Mia, 15-134
Travis Henry, Den, 26-128
Larry Johnson, KC, 31-135
Stephen Jackson, STL, 31-127
Rudi Johnson, Cin, 30-117
The Raiders’ record in those games is 2-17.
Pittsburgh hasn’t given up 100 yards to a running back since Jacksonville’s Taylor gained 147 yards on 25 carries on Dec. 16 of last season.
As much as Al Davis is identified with hiring offensive minds to be his head coach, with a preference for play-callers, if possible, you wonder if he’d ever consider going wtih a defensive head coach to stem the tide of 100-yard runners and the defeats that follow."
=================================
The key observation, IMO, is that one of the biggest failures of the Raiders the past six seasons is run defense.
Knowing that run defense is a MAJOR problem impeding our ability to win games, why on earth is Davis so resistant to AT LEAST CONSIDERING a defensive coach for HC?
CJ.....
"Knowing that run defense is a MAJOR problem impeding our ability to win games, why on earth is Davis so resistant to AT LEAST CONSIDERING a defensive coach for HC?"
I couldn't agree with you more.
Herrera said, "the next head coach would help decide who the offensive and defensive coordinators will be. "
Really... But there's not HC?
Oops...I'm sorry. Coach Davis.
Mr. Duva
Yes, the w/l record is an indicator of past incompetence, CJ, so now Al is cleaning house and you guys are using that as an indicator of... wait wait wait for it.... INCOMPETENCE!!!
The people besides Cable were almost certainly Kiffin guys... and Kiffin didn't get it done, so now we are looking elsewhere.
WTF is so wrong with that?
Now if, and this is a big IF, Al hires Martindale as DC, I will be with you in saying how fucked up this is. But that hasn't happened yet, has it CJ?
If, and this is also a big IF, Al doesn't hire a head coach before the Senior Bowl so he can do some networking with the other coaches, THAT is an indicator of incompetence. But that hasn't happened yet.
I was kinda upset about losing the ST's coach until I read that we promoted a guy that was promised the job, and who was viewed being instrumental during the ST's practices... so what do I have left to be so pissed off about?
LOSING RATHMAN??? Please.
I stopped wetting my bed when I was four, just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean I have to start doing it again.
Mr. Duva...
Please...Is that all it is...More stinking shit slug at the wall...
Break it down...
OK...We all know we have sucked at stopping the run...Shit sticks to the wall...
OK...We all know Al likes to hire a play-caller "O" minded coach for "HC"...Shit sticks to the wall...
So now where is the freaking challenge...That "SOB" in Baltimore is the twin to that "SOB" who has been stinking up the ship here in OakTown and we are all happy he's gone...Right...Now if the "DC" is a promotion of the Quality Control "D" coach who was working with that "SOB" who left....What do we have....Break-Down something about Martindale who may be promoted...What does he bring to the table...Now if we after "so-n-So" who is available and "Wants" to be a Raider....What would we have than...
PantyRaider....Thinking Cap Please!!!/_
Good post Gary. Alot of whinning about nothing goin on.
RaiderMike
Gary,
i do not believe DC rob ryan was kiffins man.
ryan was the DC every raider HC had the misfortune of inheriting
the giants, having lost their DC to the rams, are rumored to be looking at dom capers, a former DC, and HC in the league.
the giants are smart.
al davis on the other hand, will continue the same philosophy for the raiders defense that has led to all the 100 yrd rushing games yielded.
al davis is not smart.
Wow...Sure wish there was someone who was able to break things down and willing to give up some insight into what might be the plans of a specific candidate for "HC"..."OC"..."DC"....
Who would he be going after in "FA"-n-Draft to support that game philosophy...What they bring to the table...How they may utilise their toys...
Just the kind of (+)stuff "Worth" reading....
Disparity of the "DramaQueen"s...
PantyRaider...Dungeon Dwelling!!!
I'd say its more a case of Al being set in his ways(like most 79 yeatr olds) than a question of football smarts.
PR-
With our salary cap situation I wouldn't expect(or want) much on that front, except for a veteran QB to backup JRuss.
"I stopped wetting my bed when I was four, just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean I have to start doing it again."
Gary what are we talking about here, your childhood issues with bed wetting or football? Once again more Freudian arguments not related to anything being discussed.
"Please...Is that all it is...More stinking shit slug at the wall..."
Panty what is it with you and Shit on the wall explanation?
Gentlemen are we discussing bathroom etiquette or Raiders football?
Where is RT and CJ or H?
Mr. Duva
RaiderRealist...
Your probably right but sometimes there is a creative way around things...
With all the (-) talk there needs to be something (+) out there...Am I the only one who can smell it...There is I believe a fresh sent out there beyond all that "Shit" stuck on the wall...
PantyRaider...Choking From the Stink!!!/_
Definition:
"Shit slung at the wall to see if anything sticks"
Constant attempts at stating the same negative material over and over in an attempt to see if anyone will believe and accept it.
Happy for "AZ"....This will be their 1st...Meanwhile Matt Laina rt continues to warm the bench...Boy..."MrD" really screwed up by NOT taking that guy when we had the chance....Now were stuck with "JRus"....Oh Well....What can you expect from an old bastard beyond his time...
Remember what the "Mediot" s proclaimed when Al passed him up...
Gary: In reference to your comments below, please see my rebuttal.
===================================
Gary:
"Yes, the w/l record is an indicator of past incompetence, CJ, so now Al is cleaning house and you guys are using that as an indicator of... wait wait wait for it.... INCOMPETENCE!!!"
CJ:
I have no problem with cleaning house. I do have a problem with the lack of well qualified candidates being contacted, interviewed, and hired. Big difference.
==================================
Gary:
"The people besides Cable were almost certainly Kiffin guys... and Kiffin didn't get it done, so now we are looking elsewhere."
WTF is so wrong with that?
CJ: Nothing but where are we looking? Promoting Asst Quality Control coaches? Unqualified HC candidates (Moss)? If there were multiple, qualified candidates being interviewed, we would not be having this debate.
=================================
Gary:
"Now if, and this is a big IF, Al hires Martindale as DC, I will be with you in saying how fucked up this is. But that hasn't happened yet, has it CJ?"
CJ:
No it hasn't happened yet. Besides Moss, who isn't exactly a well qualified DC let alone HC, Martindale is clearly the front runner. We shall see.
==================================
Gary:
"If, and this is also a big IF, Al doesn't hire a head coach before the Senior Bowl so he can do some networking with the other coaches, THAT is an indicator of incompetence. But that hasn't happened yet."
CJ:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Gary, but isn't the whole point of having a HC in place now is to have this HC at the Senior Bowl practice week not the actual game. If I'm not mistaken, the Senior Bowl practices start tomorrow.
=================================
Gary:
"I was kinda upset about losing the ST's coach until I read that we promoted a guy that was promised the job, and who was viewed being instrumental during the ST's practices... so what do I have left to be so pissed off about?"
CJ:
The former STC (Schneider) was responsible for coaching the best ST unit since we've been back in Oakland in 1995.
The new STC (Fassell) has 2 years of assistant level, quality control experience.
If you cannot see the difference between an experienced, proven commodity and an inexperienced, unproven young assistant, then I can't help you out there.
===================================
Gary:
"LOSING RATHMAN??? Please.
I stopped wetting my bed when I was four, just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean I have to start doing it again."
CJ:
Not sure where you are going with your bed wetting history but ... I will leave this alone. It has nothing to do with discussing football in an intelligent manner.
Mr. Duva, I'm still here, I'm just taking a break from the Just .500, Baby enablers, who seem thrilled that this entire process is unfolding without a GM, and who are obviously quite enamored with all of the elite (not!) coaching candidates that we are vetting. They view what's going on as an entirely appropriate reaction to six years of record-breaking futility. I'm at a loss for words.
So if my count is correct, representing the Raiders at tomorrow's opening day Senior Bowl practices in Mobile, will be Lionel Washington, John Fassell, and Al's yes men scouts.
Oy Vey. That sure kicks off the 2009 offseason in a rousing fashion. Thanks Al.
GatorRaider
Add me as a supporter of John Gruden as the next head coach for the Raiders.
Maybe with Al getting a sniff that Gruden might go to KC he might pull a "Jordan" and "keep" Gruden a Raider, by signing him.
Yes, I am pessimistic about the Raiders, that's what six very ugly losing seasons does to me.
I haven't been too happy with the offseason so far, but bringing back Gruden, and Allen too, whether it be because Al was brilliantly waiting for Gruden and Allen to get fired, or these two very capable hc, and gm fell in Al's lap, would instantly give me hope for the Raiders.
Gary - if you would concede the process is screwed up if Martindale is named the DC, what then would you concede if he is named the head coach?
According to ESPN, that is what sources are saying. Not that ESPN makes it credible, but surely, given your comments about him as a DC, this might at least add some additional apologetic perspective to what Calico Jack and Raider Take along with others are saying.
If we continue to say, give it time, that would be akin to clients of Madoff at this point saying, give it some time, he'll turn it around.
Blue Monday
CuTthroat,
al davis WANTED to take matt lienart.
according to al, he was talked out of it by art shell, who wanted mike huff instead.
this is straight from old uncle al's mouth, at his PC to introduce new HC "lance" kiffin.
so yeah, al would have picked leinart, and blew that one too.
Did anyone really believe Al would change? He obviously can't handle anyone who has a pair so he will hire a yes man. Al will call the shots on Defense and handle all the personel moves.
Scar.....do you have one hair on your head that thinks gruden would want to be in Oakland again? Do you think Al would hire him back? Really? Remember, Gruden has a mind of his own, that is not allowed in Al's world, you must be a servant that spews out "Yes Mr.Davis" at every word he utters.
Panty, Gary and Blunda are the perfect examples of the twisted thinking that destroys any hope of success in Oakland. They have Al disease, "must not question Al, he knows more than anyone, he is the football Pope, we are all his zombie followers, he can do no wrong......".
JONES
RT...
Talk Change...Liberal -vs-Conservative...
Radical -vs- Lasting...
As I recall we have had the "Liberal-Radical" type of changes at "HC" during the past 6 years of our losing ways...Looking for that "Quick-Fix" outsiders and retirees have been brought in and sent out and brought in and sent out again...Just when we talk a 3 year plan for Kiffin it turns out he never had that much time and commitment in him...NO continuity from season to season...NO consistency in the draft plans from one regime to the next...NO lasting plan for "FA"s...So now you are campaigning for more of the same...I don't get it...
Looking back the last time a "Conservative-n-Lasting" approach was taken we went to the "SB"...The promotion from the inside kept the progress and continuity that the team had from the past 4 years in place and it was built upon....It probably would have carried over to the second year had it not been for the disabling injury to our Captain...Gannon...And the fact that we had failed to develop anyone behind him....
The problem with the "Conservative-Lasting" approach is that change seems slow and difficult to recognize as compared to the later which may make a few exciting "Quick-Fixes" but does not last....For example teams like Cinncy, Detroit, NO, etc...They make a huge showing one season and disappear the next after their Radical Changes take place...If that's what you want so be it....Not for me....
Real Change may be painstakingly slow and hard to see but the lasting results are well worth it...Take for instance the Raiders...If indeed cable is being promoted from within and continuity is allowed to extend into "09" we could also wonder who is responsible for the "Change" in how the "Mediot"s are being handled this off-season as compared to any other in history...NO more of the Kiffin hide in the dark approach while letting all sorts of rumors boil over...Would Al Davis care...NOT in the past when as long as the Raiders are front-n-center that's all fine for him....So where does this "NEW" approach come from...
Conversely on the other side of the ball the "D" has not undergone rapid Radical change even when it has failed....But Al gets all the blame for those failures....I don't get that either...Short Memories....
We can go back a long way and look at "DC"s for the Raiders and how often was it said Al Davis made them good....Under Willie Shaw we were rated in the top 5..Al's Fault?...After Shaw during our "SB" run we were in the top 10...Al's fault?...The last 5 seasons of failure at the bottom of the NFL was definitely Al's Fault?...
How is it that Shaw and others got credit for their contributions to the "D" but "SOB" gets an exception and Al takes all the blame...NOT realistic when Al was NOT healthy or on the practice field nor was he calling plays in the booth...That was "SOB"...
Continuity on the "OL" will be in it's 3rd season of the "ZBS" and is starting to show good progress...the young rookie "QB" is showing good progress as well as are the young "WR"s...We are set at "TE" and the "RB"s are loaded with talent...But how many more total transition do you want to put these young players threw...The Conservative approach would allow them to continue to gel and get better instead of having to spend all their time learning a totally new system...
On the "D" if the "DC" is promoted from within it will allow the strengths to continue in the passing "D" but allow for changes in the rushing "D"...
Promotion from within of the "STC" was a smart move don't you think...
Day after tomorrow we are about to enter a new era of "Change"...."Rapture of 09"....But some have been promoted from within and a few have been brought in from the outside....If instant changes is not recognized within half a season after the horrible 8 years we have had to suffer threw are you going to through your hands in the air and start crying for wholesale panic....Or will you look for slow effective lasting change for the better realizing it took 8 years to through us into this mess and it will take a season or two to start to dig us out of it...
PantyRaider...Smell of Change in the Air!!!/_
Raider00..
Please post a url on that comment if it's available...I never saw it...By the way...I forgot to sign off as PantyRaider when I posted as CutThroat....Incognito...
As for that disgusting little piece of shit that followed you...
"....and....and you can.....so stick that.....wet pussy"!!!!!
"They view what's going on as an entirely appropriate reaction to six years of record-breaking futility. I'm at a loss for words."
Take......I see, eye to eye with you on this very subject.
Now Jerry Mac is reporting that Martindale is being considered HC?
What?
"So it has been reported that Don Martindale is being considered for the HC of the Oakland Raiders? Any comment?" asked an unidentified journalist.
"Don has been instrumental and brings credible leadership to this organization. His loyalty and dedication has prompted Al to consider Don as a viable candidate to coach the Oakland Raiders,” said Senior Executive John Herrera. Sounds funny, but that's exactly how Herrera would answer the question.
Bring in candidates who have no ties to the Raiders, i.e. Player, Assist. , Assistants Assist. , Re-Treads, or their likes. Oh that’s right; we did that 2 years ago with Kiffin.
Now I need a lobotomy
Mr. Duva,
H has been working 6-7 days a week for the last month with only time for a few dirve by postings.
I am wondering about a few postings here.
Number 1, this is a site for posting opinions. Calling someone a lier for their opinions is totally out of bounds. At a minimum it's a 15 yard penalty.
Number 2, some folks would love to see us hire Spagnoal as HC then say we shouldn't promote a coach because he has no experience at the next level.
Number 3, Panty, I enjoy your enthusiasm and creativity, but I must protest. Mike Vick, unless he's had a come to Jesus conversion of some sort, would be a disaster.
Number 4, last year we bitched and moaned because the Raiders weren't saying anything about rumors. This year they are and some are mad about that saying Herera should sit down and shut up.
I'm beginning to think we need some cheese to go with all the whine that's being posted here.
Now, for my opinion. Cable will be back. Probably as HC, but I feel he will be back in some capacity. What makes me think he will be back as HC is it is reported that he is assisting in the position coach interviews.
That's my drive by for today. By the way, in case anyone was worried, I found my Three Stooges talking bottle opener. Life has returned to normal.
H
Folks,
Winston Moss
Tom Cable
Kevin Gilbride
Someone please tell me what I’m supposed to be excited about.
Moss is a D coach and probably not ready to be a HC, nor will Davis hire him as HC.
Davis must not have a lot of confidence in Cable, or else he would have been named by now. Perhaps all the trick plays got the best of Davis.
Gilbride’s claim to head coaching fame is the Ryan Leaf years in SD. As OC of the NYG, he has merely ridden the success of a strong defense... which the Raiders do not have!
So this is the entire pool of head coaching talent Davis will choose from after six straight 11-loss seasons. Please! And don’t tell me again about all the secret interviews being conducted. Davis can’t even wipe his ass right now without an APB.
Plus, it now appears Davis has done a 180 degree turn on hiring a GM and will instead take on more responsibility himself by assembling most or all of the coaching staff before a HC is named.
Prediction: Gilbride would be foolish to make a lateral move as OC of the Raiders (if you call that a lateral move). And Cable has acquiesced to Davis’ indecision by suggesting he would stay on even as an assistant. This opens the door for Gilbride to be HC and Cable to be OC. Martindale is clearly the frontrunner for DC since he promises to take over exactly where Rob Ryan left off (running the same exact D). Moss could be named LB coach, only because he’s a former Raider.
It doesn’t take much imagination to picture this scenario.
One last thought, Pitt and Balt are two teams that know how to hit hard and play aggressive D. Wow! So that's what it's supposed to look like.
H...
It would be a value acquisition...He will not command a huge salary and he has tremendous talent...It would either be one of the best acquisitions of the decade or the biggest bust but the potential is very high and the extra dimension he would add to the "O" is tremendous...I fell the potential out weighs the risk at the "QB" position as a back-up rather than a misfit "WR" who is your #1 or a misfit "CB" who is also your #1...
Second Chances anyone...Besides...I would probably get along with him as we sit down to a favorite of mine...Cambodian Dog....Just Yummy Baby!!!
Flaco goes Wacko 3 "Int"s....par for a rookie....Now what was all that talk earlier about how he is so much better than our big loveble-n-expensive "Rocket Launcher"...
PantyRaider...Piece of Tail Anyone!!!/_
Panty, are you calling me a disgusting piece of shit? Ahh, ain't that cute, from the mind melted retard who can't spell and posts under different names to try and further his futile points. Panty, your mind is so polluted you can't think straight. I laugh at any of your "takes", they are a true sign of a mental midget. So if you disagree with what I write..just want to thank you, it warms my heart to know that a dunce like you doesn't even come close to my thoughts..
JONES...thankin the Good Lord above...
Oh and Panty dear....you go on and on about Vick being a valuable aquisition as a "backup". Hilarious, yeah, what a great signing it would be, just so we can have Vick standing , watching and teaching Russell how to drown a dog without leaving bruises...another great post by the resident dope.
JONES.....watch'in you eat sweet and sour paws
H and PantyRaider, my point about Herrera is that it's not change, it's the same old thing. This is a team that issued statements about what Al Michaels said on MNF, and that Rob Ryan was NOT fired after the 2007 season.
It's when they're silent that you know that the rumors are true, which was my point last January and beyond, with regard to the Kiffin fiasco. The fact that they didn't publicly support Kiffin was a dead giveaway to big trouble brewing.
Yet there were many (not you guys) who wagged their finger at me, saying that it was cool, saying that the Raiders NEVER respond to rumors, and that to do so would be futile and counterproductive. Well, if it's so futile, why are Hererra's gums flapping like the Santa Ana wind every day?
So it's just me poking some fun here and keeping score.
Herrera is more of the same. If we have to look to him as a sign of positive change, we are in serious trouble.
H: Thanks for your drive by postings. We've missed you. Glad to hear the opener is in your possession.
For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with promoting from within. When an in house candidate has excelled and shown they have "the right stuff", it is a way to reward their performance.
However, the promotions of Lal Sinjay as WR Coach and John Fassell as STC are certainly dubious at best.
Their experience, qualifications, level of expertise, and contributions to earn these promotions are valid to question.
The WR Coach and STC are critical members of the coaching staff and should not be taken lightly.
To think that there wasn't more highly qualified candidates in the market to interview and hire is an insult to my intelligence.
This observation also falls back on my belief that if a well qualified HC, OC, and DC were hired already, an entire network of recommendations could be made on the WR and STC openings.
Instead, because of the flawed process, we are dealing with a very limited pool of candidates.
Look, we can go around and around on what's taken place over the past 3 weeks but the bottom line is this:
(1) We have yet to fill any of the key vacancies; GM, HC, OC, DC
(2) The candidates for HC, OC, and DC have been limited and/or unqualified candidates
(3) We've lost 2 key staff members; Rathman and Schneider
(4) We've promoted 2 very inexperienced Asst Quality Control Coaches to key slots.
(5) There is no reason to believe we will hire a true GM
From my vantage point, this has been a half hearted, indecisive, flawed process.
Some of you are welcome to see everything as lolipops and sugar plums until but you are only kidding yourself.
No matter what Raider stripe you belong to, all of us can certainly agree that you want to see the type of hire where you go "Alright! Coach X kicks ass! He's an excellent coach to improve our team."
Tick tock ... I'm still waiting.
Piece-o-Shit...1-866-CRY-BABY...
CalicoJack....
I understand what your pimping but it's the same old thing we have gone threw for the past 6 seasons...Radical Change that has no stability-continuity-conservation of the gains....Instead it just forces everyone involved to re-train again and again in a new system...
NO THANKS....I saw gains and I felt hope and that is worth preserving and building upon...
So we agree to totally disagree...I don't hold much support for what you and RT and NTRaider are pimping...We have been down that road too many times with too many false hopes built upon "Speculation"....I want something more tangible than more "Speculation"....
I want the football that I saw on the field and the spirit that I saw in the players at the end when there was nothing to play for except the game itself....I want the enthusiasm that I saw in the fans who still supported this team..."Tangible Evidence of Change"...On the freaking field...
PantyRaider...Love of the Game!!!/_
This comment has been removed by the author.
Woops...Double Posted...
Taking a break until there is a "Positive" feel in the air...Too much negativity is a wasteful downer when there are too many positives in life to consider....
PantyRaider...NOT a CRIER!!!/_
Rex Ryan is coach of the Jets.
What’s the Raiders’ delay? Davis is not interviewing. (The Martindale interview was not much more than a set-up for BSPN - maybe the Raiders are trying to demonstrate "cause" to have BSPN blacklisted by other NFL teams).
There are no reports that Davis is reaching out requesting interviews.
Does anyone really believe there will be some brainstorm between now and when Davis actually hires a coach?
I could see stringing Cable out (pun intended) if there was a series of interviews scheduled to determine if Cable was in fact the right guy. So far that simply hasn’t happened.
Now, reports are Cable will represent the Raiders at the Senior Bowl, although he is not under contract. Has Cable become Al's ultimate whipping boy? Does anyone else see this as disrespectful to Tom Cable? Al, if you're gonna send Cable on a mission, at least make his importance to the Raiders known. Has Cable also been asked to lie to prospective coaches and/or players?
Looks like Tom Cable is representing the Raiders at the Senior Bowl (and on the Raiders dime). That should tell us a lot.
If Al is letting the Head Coach decide who will be the OC and DC (as Herrera claims; which is interesting because he also claimed that a few more were only interviewed as Coordinators), then why is he interviewing Martindale as a potential DC without introducing the Head Coach? I think Dom Capers would have been a good choice to interview for DC.
Moss, Gilbride, and Cable are the known HC Interviews. There is a lot complaints about not interviewing a more qualified candidate, and then McDaniels and Spagnuolo's name always seem to pop up as qualified, when the two have only been Coordinators for a few years.
I think Gruden, Jim Schwartz, Marty Mornhinweg, Russ Grimm, Leslie Frazier, and Bill Cower (who is not coaching) would be good HC interviews. The reason you won't be seing these names interviewed is because there are no strong ties to the Raiders.
We could have had Ken Whisenhunt as our Head Coach after Norv Turner, but because Al didn't have a GM, he turned it down. I wouldn't mind having Gruden back at all, at least we had a balanced team under him. I wish we could have Bruce Allen back.
Nothing has changed on the Raiders front, not even how they conduct interviews. If nothing changes in how they operate football operations, then nothing about the team will change. The Chiefs are doing it right, they saw that their problem started with the front office football operations, and you will see how swiftly things change there and on the field.
Calico,
Thank you for your concern over my bottle opener. Mrs. H was reorganizing the kitchen and moved it. I was worried there for a while.
Your comment is valid, however I offer what could be the other side of what is becoming a sureal two headed coin (Don't ask me what I mean, it just fell out of my brain).
The promotions May have come from what we know and what we can surmise. According to Jerry MacDonald Fassel was quite involved in the coaching of the special teams. If that is true he may have earned the promotion. Sinjay may have been working with the younger receivers to give them more one on one attention. With Schilens and Higgins performances in the latter stages of the season Sinjay may be most responsible for that.
Cable, when he became IHC may have turned over more responsibility to the younger coaches in order to get more accomplished in practice. Martindale, under this theory, may have had some input into the defensive game plan. I will say something about our LB's, they were playing the run much better in the last two games. Yes, Cadillac Williams did get that one good run in, but for the most part their support of the run was better in the last two games. Especially Kirk Morrison.
This possible scenario along with reports that Cable is involved with the interviews of position coaches may, I repeat MAY, indicate there is some method to the maddness.
Who knows, Cable may be acting as a psuedo GM at the moment.
By the way, KC has hired the genius Scott Pioli. If Edwards is not in the plans for next year, they sure are taking their time showing him the door.
One more shot then back to work. For a while it was fashionable to hire the coordinators from the Patsies. Thus far it's not bearing much fruit for the teams that hired them (See the Brownies and the Biplanes). Now it's the Giants. More often than not the next great coordinator that goes off to another team falls on his face. In many ways it's just as big a crapshoot as the draft.
Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
H
PR:
I'm not "pimping" radical change ... far from it.
What I'm "pimping" is strong leadership, a coherent vision, decisiveness, and first class effort to search for the best possible GM, HC, OC, DC in the market.
I'm just trying to imagine the conversations Tom Cable will have with fellow coaching colleagues ...
TC: "Hi Jimbo. Great seeing you out here. What's it been, 4 years since I last saw you at UCLA. Hey, I was wonderin' ... how would you like to join the Raiders organization as my next RB Coach?
Jimbo: "Gee Tom. That sounds like a terrific opportunity worth exploring. Are you the Raiders Head Coach?"
TC: "Well not exactly but there is a good chance I will be or I might be OC, oh shoot, I could be OLine Coach ... not sure really"
I'm not agitating for Gruden, but I'd take Allen. An experienced GM is better than no GM.
I love this quote from Herrera about Gruden: "His record was OK at Tampa Bay, but just OK. We’ve been down that road."
Uh, the Bucs won 18 games over the past two seasons, two less games than the Raiders have won over the past five seasons.
Hey Herrera, the only time you've been "down that road" over the past 15 years is when Gruden was coaching the Raiders.
He sounds like some of the folks here who turn their nose up at mere "playoff" teams. Those Falcons and Dolphins, one-year wonders! You see, when the Raiders do it, it won't be a one-year wonder. We'll shoot straight to the top and stay right there. We'll show everyone it's easy to dominate year after year in the parity-driven NFL, just as it's easy have 11 or more losses for six straight seasons.
We'll look down our noses at the Bucs, Jets, Saints, Vikings and others...Just as we do right now.
"Just Win, Baby!"
What does it mean?
Does it mean (A) win at ALL COSTS?
Or does it mean (B) just win, no matter how ugly?
Curious to hear some SHORT answers just to get a better feel for the crowd.
I always assumed it meant A. Then the other day I had an epiphony and realized it actually means (B). So don't smear poop in the visiting teams breakfast.
-moshbucket
-moshbucket
To me, it signifies that winning is the top priority. It says find a way to win, regardless of the means to the end. Change, adapt, innovate, whatever. Just Win, Baby.
Today, the means is the priority. It is now about trying to win "my" way instead of the best or most efficient way
RT, I find it humorous that someone (I think it was Mike Lombardi) referred to John Herrera as "Baghdad Bob."
All indication from Herrera's comments seem to be dismal that we are really committed to excellence and winning. As you pointed out, the last time we had Gruden, we were above mediocre; and he non-chalantly blows it off as "we've been down that road before"; as if it were a miserable era in Raiders' History. It continues to be Al's way or the Highway in Oakland, and I feel if Cable is hired as Head Coach, and internal promotions occur for key staff people; then I believe we will be having these same discussions throughout the next season, and the next offseason.
To clarify, yes I am throwing the Raiders next season under the bus if the front office doesn't change how they conduct football operations; Gary. No sound football operations equates to no GM, no solidified scouting team, no competent coaching staff, we will lose Lechler, Nnamdi, and a few others without being able to sign key free agents we will need to succeed.
So far this is what we are seeing out of Oakland. John Herrera adamantly denied the rumor that Washington and Martindale interviewed as Head Coach, but as DC and DB coach. Washington turned out to be true, the jury is out on Martindale. Then in the next breath says that the next Head Coach will chose his staff.
So if Martindale is interviewing as the DC, does that mean the Head Coach is in place? If so, why hasn't he been announced? Why did Herrera (after saying the next HC will chose his staff) then say that Al is going to interview a few more Head Coaching candidates? Like who? Herm Edwards? Mike Holmgren? Jim Fassel? Jon Gruden? James Lofton? Willie Brown? Art Shell? Also, why is Tom Cable representing the Raiders at the Senior Bowl if he's not under contract with the Raiders?
All of this says that Al Davis is being Al Davis, and football operations in Oakland have not (and will not in the foreseeable future) change. Just like the last 6 season, and through the late 80's and mid 90's, we can expect less than stellar team and football play. When Al Davis has no balance (like a good Ron Wolfe and Bruce Allen) history shows the Raiders don't do well, and under-achieve.
Moshbucket,
To me it means B. I don't care how the win comes.
Sometimes the special teams have to win one for you with a key return, late field goal, what ever.
Occasionally it's done by the defense with a timely interception or sack.
The offense will pull one out in the last 2 minutes.
Any of these can occur during an ugly sloppy game, and if we win I say we could have played better, but I don't dwell on it.
Then there are the times like the last two games where all three phases show up. That's the goal, that's how you want the team to function on a regular basis.
Win at all cost? I'm not sure what that means.
Now, on another note. One of the things I always hate to hear is a play-by-play or color commentator say "in the playoffs the refs tend to let them play."
Well, the Philidelphia Pigeons were driving. They had a 4th down and threw an imcomplete pass where the receiver was knocked down by the defender.
The annoucer, can't remember who it was, said it probably was interference but the refs wanted them to settle it on the field.
To which I say, pure unadulterated BS. Just like they wanted to allow us and the Patsies to settle it on the field when there is some obscure rarely called rule that can be used.
If it's a penalty in the regular season, it's a penalty in the playoffs.
I don't think there are any posting here that would disagree with that last sentence.
H
Take - you are dead on and your reasoning and logic has always made sense to me.
And I don't like all the shouting and name calling I see in what I consider to be the most civilized blog around.
I was one of the first to call for a GM, having raised the issue a couple of years ago.
Question: how has the loss of trusted assistant Al Locassle effected our team. The man knew football, having been around since the early AFL days. And he certainly had the ear of Davis.
Forget "Just Win Baby" and "Commitment to Excellence." Those are just words from a bygone era.
New catch phrases in Raider football include "back to the basics" and “for cause.”
Here's where we differ, RT. There seems to be much concern about the Raiders becoming the Detroit Lions. I tend to dismiss such concerns in that it will likely take fifty years of improvement by the Lions and the continuation of the Raiders' slide for another 44 years in order for the two teams to approximate each other. As it stands now, the Raiders are no longer in the elite top 5%, but still reside (the last six years aside) in the top 15 to 20%. Less than a decade of winning might well put the Raiders back up near the very top. But before we get there, we are going to have to turn the ship around.
I don't believe that the only way to turn the ship around is to discard the Raiders' 40 some odd years of operational theory. I don't think they need to rebuild their entire organization to resemble the Patriots (or this year's surprise turn around - Arizona). I think that the team needs to realize that there are now limitations on the way that they operate, and that these new limitations must be accounted for and addressed. I do think that Al Davis needs some help because of his physical limitations, but I still trust Al Davis to identify that help for himself. He's said he know that he needs it, and I'll let him figure out in what form it comes.
I will grant that over the past six seasons the Raiders haven't just lost - they've lost in a spectacular crash and burn. I don't think that simply pointing fingers in Al Davis' direction accounts for that demise. Rather, the conditions necessary for that demise were largely instituted by others, but Davis' physical limitations have prevented him from both correctly identifying the problems and finding the solutions.
The reasons for the crash and burn I think are these, and it started with Gruden and Allen.
1. Poor draft selections (and, yes, Gruden and Allen both participated in these selections).
2. Continually signing aging free agents at the twilight of their career. - Coupled with the poor draft selections, the retirement of a large number of Raider starters over a short period, and no forethought into the problems this could create is a large part of how this all began.
3. No continuity. - At first, the only change made by Callahan was that he opened up Gruden's play book (the failure to make any changes to the plays themselves prior to the Super Bowl cost them the Super Bowl. In his second season, Callahan attempted to completely throw away Gruden's playbook. After that the Raiders spent two years with Turner, one year with Shell, and two years with Kiffin's USC playbook. That means that over six years the Raiders operated under four different playbooks. There are no team staples, and no tradition over these years to the Raiders' style of NFL play.
4. As poor draft selections where made (not just by Davis - he was assisted by Turner and Shell, but our drafts since seem okay), the team (seemingly unaware that the foundation of the team, the o-line and d-line, had crumbled) set about bringing in high priced free agents (Collins, Moss, Jordan) rather than address the foundation. The biggest tragedy regarding Shell II was not his offense, it was his failure, as a coach, to improve the o-line and the d-line.
RT, I spent most of last off-season claiming that building for baby steps was the wrong approach - but one you seemed to endorse at the time.
What Tom Cable currently represents to me is continuity and competent talent identification. I've agreed with his benchings, and I've noticed the improvements from the replacements that he's brought in. He is not afraid of Al Davis under either of the Davis phobia categories. In other words, he's not intimidated by Davis and he's not afraid for people to know that he talks to the man on a regular basis. If we had that from Kiffin, Shell, Turner, Callahan and, yes, even Gruden, we would be far better off than we are right now.
Moshbucket, it means B, and it has always meant B. What is historic about Al Davis teams is that they don't win pretty, they just win. Typically you'd look at the team stats and penalties after a game and ask how in the hell they managed to win. But they always found the way.
Winning in that manner requires a certain type of player. It requires a team first attitude (players who don't worry about their stats), and a complete determination to find the way to the endzone, no matter what is being thown up against you.
Tinfoil,
Al Locassle was a phenominal asset to the Raiders. And he was a great friend to Al Davis.
It is just my opinion, but I think Al Davis has been looking for another Al Locassel for years. Exceptional football mind, not afraid to speak his mind and unquestioned loyalty. The perfect package for Davis.
I remember a preseason game one time where the network had Locassel in the booth as a color guy. He was all over the officials on a call. The play by play guy said he should be more objective. Locassel responded, "I work for the Oakland Raiders not the network." Last time they used him.
In as few a words as possible, Davis misses him a lot. I and Blandarocked have mentioned that in past post.
H
Davis hired Skipper to coach RBs. Davis is determined to have all the assistant coaches assembled before he hires a HC, and a complete coaching staff before (if and when) he hires a GM. Brilliant!
Meanwhile, former Raider coaches are floating around the Senior Bowl activities representing the Raiders without contracts?
Doesn't that sound a little strange to anyone else? Did Davis put a spell on these guys, or what?
I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation, right?
NY- Hasn't it occurred to you that the head coach is already in place and has been for quite some time? You know Al is paranoid and he wants to make sure he satisfy's the Rooney rule as well as using this aloofness to keep the price down on Cable's contract. I will be totally shocked if Cable isn't named head coach Super bowl week.
RaiderMike
RaiderMike
JONES
aside from a widows peak and the hairs I have pulled out rooting for the Raiders, I do have a full head of hair.
You might probably be right that there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that Gruden would come back to lead the Oakland Raiders. Me I just expressed my opinion. I suppose I am an optimist who is quite pessimistic with the goings on on OakRaid land.
See, when I think of Gruden, I think of challenging Pittsburg, Sf, and Dallas for top dog in the NFL. Remember those days?
Cable? yeah he is decent, I lean towards liking him.
So If there is more chance of my hair instantly falling out then Gruden has of being Head coach of the Raiders then like I said about four months ago, the gm needs to be fired. Because for me Cable as head coach, and Martindale as DC isn't a GUT CHECK, its a tummy tickle.
Yes, RaiderMike, it has occurred to me. But why wouldn't it make sense to annouce the hire and show Cable some respect. If Davis doesn't want the public to know, what do you suppose Cable is telling coaches and players at Senior Bowl week? Has he been told to lie. My guess is we will find out very soon...
Blanda - don't discount the facts. Repeated mistakes and mismanagement must originate somewhere. If those under Davis are to be held accountable time after time, then so too should Davis be held accountable for hiring them.
Can't you see we are following the same pattern right now? With only two legit HC interviews, how can Davis possibly know he has the right man? And this ass-backwards way of assembling the staff is mind boggling.
We are heading down the same exact path as before, relying on Davis for virtually everything. And you want me to believe everything will be fine. I'm sorry, that's too far for me to reach.
Bama7
IAAF!
How about starting with some simple fires, like this Hererra guy? Let's cleanse the damn building, starting with this sychophant.
Bring in Shottenheimer!!!!!!!!!!
Let him build one of those hard as nails physical football teams and then Al can add a bit of icing i.e. big time skill position player or two that shotty lacked on offense in KC. It could be a strange marriage that gets both men to the Superbowl.
Bama7,
well, we're a long way from cleaning out the building.
instead, al is into to his old, tired bag of tricks.
abracadabra, presto, 11 defeats.
give me a break. SB hasn't even been played, but we're already drafting 5th NEXT year? Take it to the ADH8RZ board.
Back to actual events:
Maybe Cable is scouting player's, not coaches at the senior bowl? Seems more likely to me.
I think Cable will be either the HC, OC, or Line-C. Al hasn't decided on the HC spot yet, but they've agreed he will be on staff.
-moshbucket.
NY, what makes you believe that Cable has not been told? What does he tell the folks at the Senior Bowl? That he's there representing the Oakland Raiders, scouting players and assistant coaches. What does he say if they ask if he's going to be the HC? A final decision has not been announced.
Quite frankly, selecting assistant coaches appears to be Al Davis' job, and not anybody else.
The moves now being made are totally short-sighted, but you guys don't get it.
Davis is busy hiring assistant coaches, when he should be implementing a long-range plan that should have already included the hiring of a GM.
The man will be 80 years old when the season starts, and he's more concerned about performing the common tasks of a HC (i.e., hiring a staff) than the long-range plan for this team.
At what point does he STOP calling ALL the shots (with the coaches and players and game philosophies) and START planning for life after Davis?
There is a complete refusal to deligate authority, thus, no chain of command. There's just one person in charge, and that's why are where we are, in Football Chernobyl.
In the news today, the Cowboys are reported as suffering from an eroded culture in the lockerroom as well as on and off the field, with much of the finger pointing at Jerry Jones. Now multiply that by 10 = Al Davis.
Without a GM in place, Al Davis is the GM as well as the owner. In that dual role, he oversees and signs off on everything: staff, draft, free agents, etc.
Any GM who'd presided over several 11+ loss seasons like those in Oakland, and who had whiffed on this many consecutive coaching hires and expensive free agents (Rhodes, Hall, Walker, etc.) would under normal circumstances have been fired at the end of this past season for obvious reasons. This is a fact.
What we have here, however, is this same GM still in place, overseeing yet another assembly of a coaching staff, with no outward signs of change in the operational or philosophical process.
And people wonder why some fans might be less than optimistic at this point?
On what basis do we assume that there's going to be some sudden newfound brilliance in the coaching selections when it's the same GM going down a familiar road (last team with a vacancy to hire a head coach, no contact with elite prospects like Cowher, limited interviews focusing mainly on coaches with Raiders ties, etc.)?
I like how some say the burden is on me to prove that things haven't really changed. No, the burden is on you to prove they have. I am working off six years of bad patterns and poor results. What are you working off?
The elephant in the room is the GM position. Nobody wants to talk about that, do they? Why don't we have a GM other than the owner? Wouldn't it be smart to get one? Isn't it long overdue? Why don't we have one yet to help with the current process?
Yet big changes are underway, right?
Take, I've never made any claims that "big changes are underway." But then I'm not the one insisting that the team morph into the NE Patriots either.
You're not waiting for Al Davis to hire a GM, you're waiting for Al Davis to remove himself completely from the decision making process and to turn the reins over to someone else. Some of us here aren't actually waiting for that to happen. Personally, I expect that it won't.
No, I'm not. Don't put words in my mouth or change the subject. I am waiting for him to get the help he needs in the form of a competent GM. It's overdue and, at this point, imperative. Are you happy that we don't have a GM? Do you think it would help?
You want them to be just like the Patriots = I can't explain or rationalize why we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, and why we don't hire a competent GM to assist our 80-year-old owner, so I'll deflect the issue.
Your real agenda is that you want Al Davis gone = I don't want to talk about the elephant in the room: the lack of competent executive support that has helped create this dumpster fire.
He needs a GM. We can speculate that it is his health and age, or incompetence of why he needs help at GM; but the bottom line is he is not doing a good job as owner/GM.
He's not at the facilities everyday, he is aging, his physical health is diminishing, and he is not capable of doing things like he used to; that is fact. Because of this, the football operations in Raider land suffer. I think it was NYRaider who said that their was no delegation to help himself and the Raiders succeed.
Media speculate that it is because he's paranoid. I don't think he is paranoid, as much as it is finding someone he can work well with. But the flip side to that is that he has to be willing to give and take; and put aside his ego and "it's my way or the highway" mentality.
That is why Bruce Allen left, he disagreed with Davis on trading Gruden; and that is essentially what Al told Bruce "if you don't like it leave." So he did. Al has never been the one to apologize; but he's never backed down from a mistake either. I'm not asking him to back down from mistakes, but to own them and learn from them to improve. That is my beef with Al, and that is why I think he will have a tremendously hard time finding another GM to work with.
NYRaider,
Actually I do get it. I get there's not a damn thing I can personally do about it.
I get that it's a sport, a game.
I get that we, as consumers, must make a decision on whether we continue to consume the product.
I will watch the off season with interest and offer my opinion, but it will not consume me. When summer comes I will decide whether to continue my Sunday Ticket subscription which I purchase specifically to watch this team.
But, I always wait until weeks 3-4 before I start passing judgment. Until then I remain very optimistic.
H
Nobody has said more than I have that I think Al Davis needs some help. What I haven't said is exactly what type of help he needs, and how to implement it. I figure that Al's a big boy who's been in this business for fifty years. I've never been more than an outside observer looking in - and then only when the curtain is drawn back.
Is Al pursuing help? He said he is. Who has he talked to? I don't know because nobody is checking in with me. Has the press identified all of the people who Al has talked to regarding every available position? They never have before, why should I believe they have now?
Is everything exactly the same inside Raiderland? I never knew all the comings and goings in Raiderland, so how could I know that? The Raiders have always been a "close to the vest" operation and I certainly haven't expected that to change.
This is football, not government. Their are no Sunshine Laws here.
H - your message is somewhat contradictory. You say you can’t do anything personally. Yet, you may decide not to reorder NFL ticket. That’s something.
It doesn’t consume me either, but it is a passion, and it pains me to see such mismanagement (even if only looking historically and not forward).
Maybe I can’t do anything about it either, but I can’t pretend like “it” doesn’t exist.
Blanda - As far as secret goings-on behind Raider doors, this is the same logic from last year that suggested nothing was wrong between Davis and Kiffin.
Perception is often reality. Davis needs help and is probably not seeking any (at least at this time) as evidenced by numerous lower-level coaching staff hires made by "himself."
Chernobyl isn't something that sort of happened. Neither is the Raiders' failures the last six years.
NYRaider,
You're reading too much into it. My decision to renew the subscription has nothing to do with whether I have decided to watch or not watch the Raiders.
It's based on whether I can afford it or not. If the small company I work for goes belly up, which it wont, then I won't renew. I make that decision every summer.
I want to be watching when the turnaround occurs. And, it will. But, if there is an overriding financial reason to not renew then I won't.
But, who Al Davis hires, who is the next GM, who is the next HC, OC, DC or whatever alphabit combination you come up with, I cannot personally affect that. And I'm just as passionate about the Raiders as anyone.
Would I like to see things handled differently? Yes, but I'm not going to tie myself in knots over it.
H
Frankly I never knew whether there was a rift between Kiffin and Davis or not until it was finally plainly obvious. I looked at Kiffin trotting around, refusing to wear gear with the Raiders' logo on it, and my thought was "no adult would make such a childish gesture if he was trying to send Davis a message." Apparently I was wrong about that. But the incident speaks more about Kiffin than it does Davis. Davis tried to make it work, Kiffin tried to get fired.
One of the things I like about Cable is that he acts like a responsible adult and puts things in their proper perspective.
Blanda - Yes, Cable presents himself much better than Kiffin did, but that doesn't, in itself, make him the right choice for HC.
Also, being the owner and GM, the onus is squarely on Al Davis to maintain proper communication with his coach. To suggest it was mostly Kiffin's fault is ridiculous. Yes, Kiffin acted like a child, but he doesn't own and manage a $800 million franchise. He wass an employee, and a poorly managed one at that.
The first step to solving a problem is admitting that you have one. Based on Davis’ action thus far, he clearly does not believe he has a problem. It’s business as usual.
H - I personally hope that circumstances allow you to get NFL ticket and that you watch every game with a home brew in hand. Cheers!
However, there's no need to get tied up in knots. This is why we're here at Raider Take. To discuss the issues. And I believe Al Davis’ complacency in recognizing and solving keys problems that have plagued his (our) team for an uncharacteristically long and consistent run is the issue at hand.
You, Blanda and others show incredible patience with a process that has been broken for quite some time.
One more thought, when you limit your resources, you clearly limit your potential for positive results. Al Davis appears to intentionally limit his resources... except, of course, when it comes to paying overpriced FAs.
Obviously, he will not hire a GM to help the Raiders through the most significant coaching change (all coaches' contracts expired at once) in recent memory. The question now is, will he hire a GM in time to handle free agency... because Shane Lechler won't even speak with Davis?
I'm not too twisted up about the Raiders. What twists me up is people popping off with drive-by illogic and perpetual excuse making.
Blanda, you really didn't know there was a rift between Kiffin and Davis? Really?
"Don Martindale, who considered himself a head coaching candidate a couple of days ago, has made a lateral move and accepted a position on the defensive staff of the Denver Broncos, beat writer Steve Corkran is reporting."
don't have the time to sift through all these messages but BLANDA - has anyone pointed this article out to you yet?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ratto/index?
every word id true man!
According to an earlier report, Martindale wasn't happy with Herrera announcing he wasn't a HC candidate (whether it was true or not).
At least this (temporarily) breaks the chain of defensive coaching loyalists. Can we now please allow a DC to think for himself?
its officially retread time!
http://www.contracostatimes.com/sports/ci_11503692
RaidedNate75....
Correction..."MrD" Apologised to Art Shell and regretted the mistake of firing him the 1st time and spoke openly about it...
RT...
Detroit has a "GM" who is an X-Raider and continues to hold a job in this league despite his absolute worthlessness over time....When did he make a good decision...Draft well...Hire a good coach....In his freaking history as "GM"....Now do you want him as your elephant in the room....
NYRaider....
Sense you are so intent at listening to what the damn "Mediot"s write how about this one....
It has been reported that Coach Cable is conducting interviews with perspective coaches under the authority of Al Davis and than Al Davis hires that coach....Most likely according to the recommendations of Coach Cable....
Now please explain to me the meaning of the following statement by you...
Perception is often reality. Davis needs help and is probably not seeking any (at least at this time) as evidenced by numerous lower-level coaching staff hires made by "himself."
PantyRaider...Get Real Speak True-n-Positive!!!/_
The Smell of Change is in the Air...Happy "Rapture of 09" everyone....George "Whacker" Bush GET OUT!....
PantyRaider, I said under "normal circumstances."
Matt Millen's tenure in Detroit was abnormal and scandalous and defied all logic. Not exactly what we're shooting for, I hope.
He was, however, fired during the 2008 season.
PantyRaider - can you identify one assistant coach that Davis has hired that he didn't interview and approve himself?
And if Cable has been given that authority (which it doesn't appear he's used yet), then does that mean he's the Head Coach? If so, what's the logic in not telling the world? Let’s rejoice in the decision to bring back Tom Cable and revel in the prospect of continuity at HC which has been absentee for so long.
At least we can be sure Cable and Davis are on speaking terms, as Blandarock points out.
RT...
Thanks for the up-date...It's about time something in Detroit started working..."Pun" intended...
Al Saunders brings one of the most innovative offenses in the NFL back to St. Louis as offensive coordinator. Saunders served as associate head coach/wide receivers coach from 1999-2000, helping the Rams to a Super Bowl title in 2000.
In 2006 in Washington, Saunders’ offense finished fourth in the league in rushing, averaging 138.5 yards per game and recording a league-leading 41 carries of more than 10 yards.
As for being a "Re-Tred" so what...Remember that "Re-Tred" X-Eagle X-Ram X-Chief who made a winning everywhere he went...The "Dick"...Or that X-Giant X-Patsy X-Cowboy "Fish" who has done the same..."TUNA"...Or that X-Brown X-Chief X-Charger who constantly kicked our asses..."Shotty"...
PantyRaider...Welcome to the Staff Al!!!/_
Martindale is gone... guess the people that lapped up the moronic article saying he was a lock to be DC because he's another AD puppet were wrong.
Will they admit it here???
Only time will tell.. LOL!!
This is more great news IMO, especially if he ends up in DENVER, as reported!
If they like linebackers that miss tackles, constantly over pursue, and are never patient with their assignments... they got their guy!!!
NYRaider...
Those comments were according to your "Mediot" reports...NOT mine...They report Coach Cable is doing all the interviews and than a perspective coach is handed off to da Boss who does the actual hiring...Now why does that process up-set you so much....
Because You Can't Blame Al Entirely!!!/_
I don't get what's so wrong with acknowledging that Mr. Davis needs help in the form of GM.
He's 79 years old and often ailing, and his performance as a GM has been dismal in recent years.
Even he said earlier in the season that he planned to bring in help in the form of a football executive.
To not have made this a priority by this time is irresponsible.
I don't know what's so hard about coming to that conclusion, and I don't know what's so wrong about lamenting it on a Raiders blog.
It's the elephant in the room. Why pretend it's not there? Why say, that's the way it is, end of discussion? Why can't we discuss it?
"To not have made this a priority by this time is irresponsible."
RT...Acknowledging that "MrD" at an advanced age needs more help than in the past is not the difficulty here....It's that statement that you wish us all to grasp and hold unto that is the freaking problem...You want us to acknowledge some type of total "Irresponsibility" here regarding the long term Owner/MGP of the team we have supported and loved sense our childhoods....
I Just Won't Do It Baby!!!
I just Don't Believe or Accept it as truth coming from you anymore than I do coming from those god damn "Mediot"s that you now seem to want to believe and follow...
PantyRaider...Loyal Raider Luv Onto Death!!!/_
PantyRaider, it's just not my nature to merge emotion with analysis. If he didn't seek help this year, or the next, or the next after that...At what point would you say enough is enough? At what point does it become reckless to you?
I can idolize and respect my grandfather, but there inevitably comes a time when he has to hand the car keys over before someone gets hurt.
http://www.examiner.com/
x-514-Oakland-Raiders-
Examiner~y2009m1d20-
Oakland-Raiders-Whats-
after-Al-Davis
Here's a great article.
Mr. Duva
>>>
Raider Take said...
I'm not agitating for Gruden, but I'd take Allen. An experienced GM is better than no GM.
>>>
I agree with this, it I don't think its too far-fetched to see it happen. Despite what you read here, I think there are still people that respect AD.. and from what I read, Allen was one of them. He didn't leave with Chucky... he was still on staff for one year in Callahans last year.
>>>
I love this quote from Herrera about Gruden: "His record was OK at Tampa Bay, but just OK. We’ve been down that road."
Uh, the Bucs won 18 games over the past two seasons, two less games than the Raiders have won over the past five seasons.
>>>>
Ok, now suddenly its the regular season that counts?
Chucky has won exactly as many playoff games as the Raiders have since they met in the SB... ZERO!
No matter how much fairy dust you sprinkle here, nobody can redefine zero with me. Its always ZERO, and always will be.
Stat of the day:
The date that St. Gruden was hired by Al Davis?
Feb 18. 2002.
Weird.
Correction... that was the date he was hired by TB.
The year they won a SB.
I was quick to jump on Martindale as Dc for the Raiders as baaadd(pun intended) news, and Gary I am happy to say that I got this one wrong.
Still not feeling the process of finding a new head coach and search for a Gm. To me it seems like a broken record. I know, antiquated analogy, but to me it seems like Al is the head coach and he is assembling his coaching staff, one member at a time. Kinda like when Kiffen, and Gruden, and Shell, and Norv, and Callahan, and you get the picture right? Here's hoping I am wrong on this one too.,
Gary said - "Martindale is gone... guess the people that lapped up the moronic article saying he was a lock to be DC because he's another AD puppet were wrong."
"Will they admit it here???"
Hello! There's nothing to admit. Martindale left on his terms, not Al Davis'.
Perhaps he simply chose not to wait any longer for a job.
"Chucky has won exactly as many playoff games as the Raiders have since they met in the SB... ZERO!"
Gary, didn't we already go over this?
You can't tell the difference between competitive football and non-competitive football?
The Bucs won almost twice as many games as the Raiders along with two division titles during that period. Meanwhile, the Raiders set an all-time record for futility.
See the difference? Football just isn't as fun to watch when you're out of the playoffs by mid-season... every year!
RT...
We are far from a point where I would start speaking that way about Mr Davis and with very good reason....
True...This past year some bad decisions were made respecting "FA" acquisitions....But now I want clarification there...How much of that could have been the influence of one departed X-"HC" who totally failed this team by the name of Kiffin....The one who last season was representing the Raider Organization at the SR-Bowl and refusing to wear our colors...The one who was giving funny reports to the "Mediot"s...As you remember Al Davis did not attend due to health considerations....
So now with the reports that Coach Cable is conducting interviews and representing Al at this seasons SR Bowl and that Al Davis is than doing the follow up work of actually giving out the contracts...could it also be that that was indeed the case last year pertaining to our long lost X-Coach who screwed the team on his way out the door....
Now give me substantial proof that all these bad decisions fall squarely upon the shoulders of Al Davis besides the fact the he eventually signed off on everyone of them....After all...He was getting the help that you are stating he needs was he not...But that help was evidently in the form of a vicious "Traitor"....
Aside though from the poor "FA" signings that were mixed in with a very good one or two....What else about "MrD" up-sets you so much...Oh!...I know...He did not squelch all those nasty rumors....But now that he has his personal "SE" attacking everyone of them that is wrong too....I just don't get it...
PantyRaider...No "HateTripin"!!!/_
PS...I don't know if I could ever separate the "Emotion" from the game....It was always there whenever I competed and it's always there whenever I watch or comment....
RT, are you asking me when it was that I knew Lane Kiffin was a liar and an ass? I gave him the benefit of the doubt up until I was shown I shouldn't give him that benefit. When it turned out that he was indeed attempting to play the media and the fans toward his own agenda, I was done with him and supported his firing.
I think both Saunders and Tresman are good interviews for OC. Saunders was actually my first choice for HC when they hired Shell. And if they are interviewing both of these men as OC, then let's face it folks. The choice for HC has been made and it's Cable.
Panty, you miss the point. Here you have to say that Al made the hire in the first place, so whatever he got from that he deserved. Al isn't allowed those kinds of mistakes because owners on other teams never make them - only Al.
NY....
1. TB won most of those games because they always had a good DEFENSE since the SB. 9th, 2nd, 17th, 1st, 4th and 5th.
St. Gruden's offenses???
14th, 18th, 29th, 23rd, 22nd, 10th.
2. Would you guys make up your friggin minds? I don't know how many times I have read in this forum that anything less than winning a SB is meaningless, and now suddenly its the RS that counts or something???
You guys give me a nose bleed.
>>>
Hello! There's nothing to admit.
>>>
Of course not.
Even though most of the IAAFers were already resigning to the FACT that Martindale was going to be DC because he is one of Al's puppets is all.
"TB won most of those games because they always had a good DEFENSE since the SB. 9th, 2nd, 17th, 1st, 4th and 5th."
Yeah, and we had Rob Ryan for five straight years. Nuff said.
Super Bowl? Nobody's talkin' SB. I think we're just searching for a pulse.
What recently to like about what Al Davis did or is doing...
Sent one overrated belegerant "CB" who he grossly over paid "Packing"...Cut early enough in the season to allow the team to progress and sent a clear message to the rest of the team....
Cut our losses with one Traitorous "HC" by week 4 when it became totally clear that he was disrupting the organization....Which by the way was NOT popular as most here believed it was a mistake by 'MrD" until reports came out to the contrary by the players....Al got the blame again did he not...
Allowed his "IHC" to revoke "Scholarships" that have evidently been plaguing the team and again sent a very strong message to all concerned....
Admitted he needs help at this point in his football life and promised to require that help even though he did not declare exactly what that help would be or exactly when it would be available...Anti-Tampering Rules coming into play here was dully noted and at this point in time the Post-Season continues to move along does it not....
Has allowed his loyal coaches to represent the team with interviews and attendance at the SR Bowl even though they are not currently under contract and has allowed the coaches who want to go elsewhere that opportunity without being bashed for it....
Has followed up on the interviews conducted by his loyal coaches and signed new coaching contract accordingly...This after he received help form his Non-Contracted Staff....
Has sent out his "SE" to immmediately squelch any and all lying rumors regardless of the feelings of those involved....
Has continues to promote stability and continuity within the organization by keeping on hand a core of faithful coaches and adding to it a few X Raider and outside coaches to the staff...
Did I miss something...
PantyRaider....Go Big "D"!!!/_
Most have been saying here that everything is the same at Raider HQ, so we shouldn't expect improvement. Well, you never know if EVERYTHING is the same until the Cone of Silence is lifted. There are a couple of things which are exactly the same, and something else that is similar. The similarity provides far more insight than the things that are the same. The two things that are the same is the Cone of Silence at Raiders HQ and the press' willingness (because of that cone) to jump on any rumor that comes down the pike. Fans, depending on their viewpoint, decide which rumors they want to accept as the gospel truth.
The similarity is the way that Davis is treating Cable that is similar to the way he worked with Gruden and Callahan before offering either a contract. This similarity indicates that Cable has already been designated HC. If not, he certainly has some form of agreement in place with Al Davis, because right now he's working without a contract. Perhaps Davis is considering Cable as GM. I doubt it, because history doesn't show it. It shows that barring an absolutely stunning last minute find for HC, Cable is the man.
Look, an elephant! Am I hallucinating?
PantyRaider, I admire your loyalty and share your affection for the past greatness of the Raiders.
At the end of the day, football is about performance. Mr. Davis acknowledged that it was time to bring in executive help to raise the level of performance. It's overdue. There's been plenty of time to make it happen. The fact that it hasn't happened is very unfortunate for the fans, and for Mr. Davis and the potential of the team.
RT...
Stop that "Acid" trip man....Pink Elephants are out of fashion in this century...So are Sheep for that matter....
Take, have you considered that your elephant in the room simply hasn't arrived yet because he's unavailable right now?
If your complaint is that a new GM should make all of the decisions that are currently being made or mulled over, then what you are really asking for is not help for Davis, but his replacement. And THAT elephant will refuse to leave the room until he's carried out feet first or straight jacketed.
And if the Raiders do pick up a GM, does that hire need to be approved by you first? I mean, after all, you've suffered through six terrible seasons, so it's time somebody came to you - right?
And if you pick the GM, and he turns out to be a bigger clinker than Al Davis, do we still blame Al Davis? After all, he picked you to make the choice.
RT...
Enough of the personal "Time-Line" already...We will work with Al's Time-Line and that's that...It's still his team last I looked and I'm certainly not in a position to take it away from him or tie his hands as to how he deals with it...
It is ours to "Watch-n-Listen"...
It is his to to do the spendin...
He's the one that'll keep us grinnin...
When his greatness keeps us winning...
PantyRaider...Selling Futures!!!/_
Ar you guys professional spin doctors? Cone of Silence, RT picking a GM, Davis making all the right moves (to fix the bad ones he's already made).
Stop avoiding the obvious truth. Davis is 79 years old, spends less and less time on the job (due to health issues), refuses to deligate authority (other than fantom authority given Cable during Senior Bowl Week), and is building a house from the roof down.
These are the facts.
Blanda, of course the guy who hired an unqualified person (in this case, me) to make major decisions would be held accountable and responsible for the consequences.
This is Exhibit A on why we disagree so often. You think that excellence and awfulness just happen randomly, in a vacuum, like earthquakes and falling stars.
My complaint is the Mr. Davis needs help. It's plain for most of us to see. He has a blown four consecutive head coaching hires, and six of the last seven. It would be helpful, therefore, to have help during the coaching selection process. I'm sorry if that opinion offends you, but I'm here to speak my mind.
NYRaider...
Maybe it's time you spent a little more time talking to some of those "Old" folk...ya...The ones who drools on the remote and fall asleep on the bar stool during a game..."70-80-90" + types....
I mean I'm 58 and I find it very interesting that when I engage some of those old bastards in a conversation and here is the key...I'm the listener...I come away with a whole new understanding...Because between all that outward appearance of "Oldness" there is still a very intelligent mind at work and a great deal of knowledge and wisdom....Re-assures me that I'm still just a "Pup" and have a ways to go...
You see...That is something that we have lost in our modern day culture....The "Older Men" who we come to listen to for that old-school Wisdom-n-Knowledge....The circle has been broken and the family of man deteriorates as youth is the movement of our time....Such a shameful loss...
If and when you take a moment to explore the older half you may come to a new understanding of someone like Al Davis and stop with these totally foolish false representations of the mans inability to do what he is still doing....
PantyRaider...Long Live "MrD"!!!/_
Gary:
I believed Martindale was the front runner for the DC position. I was wrong about the final result. However, there are enough plausible reasons for why he didn't become DC and none of the reasons paint a very pretty picture.
(1) Davis didn't think he was the right guy for the job based on Martindale's work with the LBs.
(Not a good candidate to begin with)
(2) Davis was seriously considering Martindale for DC but was going to take his time making a final decision. (sound familiar?)
(3) Martindale reached a final straw with the Herrera quote about insisting Martindale was never considered for HC. (Martindale flew the coop on his terms not Davis' terms)
(4) Martindale chose certain gainful employment like Gregg, Rathman, Schenider instead of being in limbo land. (Stability, vision, urgency, plan of action was non existent)
I don't believe Martindale would have been a good choice as DC. I'm obviously fine with Martindale not being named DC. However, I would be even more happy about it if I knew we had a pipeline of top DC prospects who we interviewed. So far we have only interviewed 1 other DC canddiate ... another LB Coach (Moss).
==================================
Often times when we are discussing and debating different points of view about the Raiders, we get bogged down or lost in a fog.
Here is my simple checklist that is relevant to the GM discussion:
1. Has any team in modern history, excluding the Raiders, had a vacancy at GM for even 1 season? Correct me if I'm wrong ... No.
2. Do we need a GM? Yes
3. If Davis hired a "GM", would this person be the final decision maker? No (which is ok by me BTW)
4. Would a GM be able to aid our cause in coaching selections, the draft, free agency, and football operations? Yes
5. Has Davis had ample time to source, contact, interview, and hire a GM by the completion of the season or by the 1st week of January? Yes.
6. Is there a pool of viable GM candidates that could be hired? Yes. Former GMs, Asst GMs, Personnel Directors, and all other types of candidates (ie a current coach or former coach).
BR: What GM candidate would be unavailable? Are you implying that the Raiders are going to go after an executive from AZ or Pitt? It is pretty simple really. If a GM is under contract, this candidate isn't viable. I would like to hear from you what candidate we would be considering that is currently unavailable.
Common sense says that the most important time and critical juncture for a GM to earn his pay is immediately following a season. This is when a plan is put into place to help put together the coaching staff.
BR wrote:
"Nobody has said more than I have that I think Al Davis needs some help. What I haven't said is exactly what type of help he needs, and how to implement it"
What type of help:
Any help. In order of preference
Strong GM, Competent GM, a GM,
Asst GM (or GMT; GM in training)
Personnel Director, or in classic Raider fashion, an Administrative Assistant to the Managing General Partner, who basicall serves some of the functions of a GM without the title.
How to implement: Interview and hire. That wasn't so tough, was it?
To make this crystal clear, all that I'm saying and some other posters are saying is the following:
Al Davis needs a football executive to help shoulder the heavy football operation load that a competetive, $800M franchise requires.
Let's not get to carried away with making this so complicated. If Al hires someone to help him it does not mean this person is in charge. What it means is that there is another experienced football mind to help, aid, support Davis.
BR, I want Davis to get the help he needs and deservves to get this franchise moving in the right direction. Is that so hard to see?
Allow me to respond:
You want the Raiders to carbon copy the Patriots!
What you really want is Mr. Davis gone!
Al Davis isn't changing his ways, so there!
So you think Al Davis needs to run his decisions by YOU!?
Rathman! Martindale! What elephant!?
What's the difference between 9-7 and 2-14 if you don't make the playoffs!?
Heck, this is fun, and easy, too.
RaiderTake,
if you go back to your original take, "just win baby" is gone, now raider must win only the "raiderway". the narrow al davis way.
it is interesting, because many posters here are the same way.
they only want to see the raiders win with al davis in control.
they do not want to face the facts of what they see on the field. of the losing teams al davis has built, and the way he goes about building them.
even as davis wears the owner, Gm, and coaches hats, they say last season was kiffins fault.
the season before that shell's to blame.
before that, turner ruined it.
and callahan, that dunderhead.
everyone, anyone, except for al davis.
i love how they think painting al as the victim is a better picture then al as the loser.
what has it come to, to fall so far ?
Talk Qualifications
We all want-a-be but are there any of us who actually are…In all honesty if we compile all our qualifications and experience in sports were no more than NFL Jock-Washers….That is to say less than qualified to shine Al’s shoes….Although CalicoJack has been a corporate recruiter I seriously question whether any of that would translate well towards qualifications as NFL Scout but that is a matter for him to determine not me….
Myself I played “HSB” and was “HB”-n-”CB” who eventually started at “HB” as a junior on our losing “JV” team….By my senior year I had turned on and tuned out and drugs would cost me a valuable part of my life….Sports….What could have been will now always be a distant memory in the fog that was my childhood…
After I was discharged 5-18-71 I desperately tried to regain my opportunities in sports…Played on 2 losing smi-organized football teams in “Wa”-n-”Co” where we had a few X-college players who helped us learn our positions and even had an X-coach or 2 who played and/or coached the teams…Road Professional Rodeo in “Wa”-”Or”-”Co”-n-“Wy”…Trained in Judo-n-Tai Kwan Do and fought in tournaments until age “45”…Raced my “76” “RM250”…Sailed trans-pac to Hawaii-n-back…Ran Track “JrHS”-n-”HS” and was a High-Jumper….Played on one organized Company Basketball team for NASSCO in “SD”…Played organized Baseball-n-Slo-Pitch once…Bowling League if that even qualifies as a sport…I am still a “Work-Out“ animal even though I can‘t hang everyday anymore…So in the end I had fun…have scars…and live with pain….But would not give it up for anything…
In “93” at a Raiders Get-Together as a Booster Club Member we organized into teams and started playing for hours until we were totally exhausted…We had several X-college and a few X-pro players on the team who failed to make it in the NFL but played USFL football…I got to play my positions at “CB”-n-”RB”…I still remember how great that felt…We were coached well and we gave it our all…I learned a lot about my position and got to learn to “Back-Peddle” and break out of it much better than before…I felt in a grove and afterwards a few padded me on the back for my quick recognition and speed….I was so full of life it felt like I would explode…Afterwards we all sat down to an outside meal with “Run-Run” who was in his “70”s at the time and a great football man full of life and X-Player for the Raiders….
That’s the closest I will ever come to playing real football…That night while alone tears were in my eyes thinking about what possibly could have been….I was “43” at the time…5’10’’ -n- 195 lbs….Totally Buff…Total disability-n-retirement would come only “8” years later at age “51”….
So in all of that is there even one iota of qualification to promote me to Assistant Shoe-Shin Boy for an NFL owner let alone Al Davis….I seriously doubt it….But would be interested to learn about your qualifications…Be honest…Any big-time stats can always be checked…
PantyRaider…Athlete Eternal & Heart Never Stops!!!/_
I could look the part but never got to live it….But I'm eternally grateful to Mr Davis for affording some of us the opportunity to actually be a part of something threw his organised Booster Clubs...What other owner in any sport has done so much for his fans....NO-One....Get involved in a club near you or on-line...
http://www.raiders.com/Fanzone/Default.aspx?id=664
CalicoJack...
"Tuna" now with the "Fish" until sold...
Ross becomes Miami Dolphins' majority owner
By STEVEN WINE – 13 hours ago
The sale triggers a clause in Parcells' contract allowing him to leave and still receive the $9-12 million remaining on his four-year contract
We shall soon know the answer...Hold your breath...
PantyRaider...Is It Posible!!!/_
PantyRaider - I'm not "old-man bashing" for the sake of it. But I'm also not pretending that Al Davis is as vibrant and resourceful as he once was in the 70's.
I'm sure there's plenty of football left in the man, but he is dangerously following the same path that has led his team to six straight years in football abyss.
If now is not the time for Al Davis to seek help running his organization, then when will it be time? After his death? That's not very good planning on his part, wouldn't you say?
Even Vito Corleone knew when to retire as Don.
Let's be honest, Al Davis' days of micro-managing his football team should have ended years ago (if based only on results), but here we are. I wonder, will we be having this same discussion next year?
BLANDA ROCKED....Have you ever spoken to the real "Blanda"? I spend 3hrs talking to him last season about the Raiders and the problems that have been ours. He...Yea He, talked about the same things that RT has about a good management team that can take the day to day problems off Al's back.....You have NO clue as to what Blanda thinks....Its funny that you use his name and have no clue.....Makes perfect sense reading your tired "cool aid" Posts...Get a Freekin Clue!
Raider Greg
Remember that Bugs Bunny cartoon where the turtle took his sweet ass time and beat the rabbit in a race?
Yeah, that kind of crap doesn't really happen. And the turtle philosophy certainly hasn't worked for the previous coaching searches this decade.
Usually I'm eagerly waiting for the name to be called, expecting the name to be some magical savior of our franchise. And usually the name does sound pretty good at the beginning.
This time I'm waiting with my arms folded, an angry look on my face, and a "What NOW?!?" attitude. I'm beyond pissed. 2008 was the year that finally did me in. My Raiders have become pathetic on so many levels, and there is no evidence of it truely being fixed in the near future.
Great Take RT, it only took me 180 posts this time to finally build up enough courage to "stomach" any more Raider talk. I figure I might as well take a few months off like our owner does this time of year.
Psycho
Ross then addressed speculation he and Parcells might not be hitting it off. The sale triggered a clause in Parcells’ contract allowing him to leave and still receive the $9-12 million remaining on the four-year contract he signed a year ago.
Parcells, scouting for the team at the Senior Bowl in Mobile, Ala., didn’t seem quite as 100 percent sure — though he was typically brusque in his response to questions.
“What do your eyes tell you?” he said. “What does it look like I’m doing. I’m in Mobile. Why do you think I’m here?”
To meet with the Raiders I hope...But that may just be wishful thinking.....
A RAIDER?: The Raiders plan to make another run at Al Saunders as the team’s offensive coordinator. He was fired in St. Louis as part of the purge of the Rams staff by new coach Steve Spagnuolo. The Raiders say Saunders could interview as early as today. Saunders interviewed for the Raiders head-coaching position in 2006
PantyRaider....What Could Be!!!/_
The HC hires support staff, assistant coaches, OC and DC. So far this off season Al Davis has hired support staff and is interviewing the OC and DC positions. Does this mean Al Davis is the HC?
And if Al Davis has already pegged Cable as the HC, then do him the decency of making it official. What reason would Davis have to make him wait? If I'm Cable I'd be looking for another job about now.
JF
RT:
What I love is when any of us make a basic observation or common-sense suggestion, we inevitably get shot down with all kinds of peripheral, non-tangential blasts.
For example: Hire a GM
Peripheral blasts: "We don't hire GMs" "Bruce Allen only did the cap" "What's the rush?" "And what if this GM flames out?" etc ...
At this point, the least of my worries is a job title and all of these blasts at common sense.
How about this guys ...
I want Davis to hire an experienced football executive, sooner rather than later, to help him. Nothing more, nothing less.
If anyone has a hard time understanding the above statement, you need help.
Calico - I believe the appropriate retort is, Mr. Davis is not going to hire an executive, so get over it. Let's just accept things the way they are and see what happens next season.
By the way, that unofficially came from J Herrera.
I count about four different versions, here, regarding things I've said in the past.
1. First, I have repeatedly stated what I believe to be the cause of the last six seasons. And I have apportioned that blame throughout the organization.
2. I have clearly stated that Al Davis can no longer run the team entirely the way he has run it in the past. In the past he spent a lot of time on the practice field and in the locker room, gaining a clear picture of the internal workings of his team, and then traveling the country and getting the outside view. At 80 he's become less mobile, and he doesn't have the people around him who he trusts enough to provide the information he no longer has access to on a regular basis.
3. I have also stated that it is Al Davis who must determine the nature of the help he needs and the source of it. Otherwise he's just relinquishing the keys to the kingdom.
4. I have also clearly stated the there is a cone of silence that falls over the Raiders during the playoffs, and no clear picture can be obtained of what the organization is planning, nor the seasonal direction.
Now you can gripe all you want, but Al Davis is going to work the way Al Davis works, and that includes the way he makes changes.
While fans can obviously voice their opinions regarding the direction of the team, no one can seriously say, at this point, what the team is or isn't doing.
In regard to Al Davis always picking the wrong coach... I'd remind you that Callahan took us to a SB. SD didn't think that Turner was a bad hire, and Tennessee didn't think Kiffin was a bad hire. While I disagree with both picks, they were reasonable picks. Shell was a disappointment, but he'd been a winning coach for the Raiders before, and it was because Davis didn't involve himself more in the assistant coaching hires (B&B offense) that Shell failed. Cable is the right choice at this time.
As for the issue of the GM. I don't care what Davis calls the position, but I think he needs help with information regarding how the team practices, the attitudes of the players and coaches, and the feelings on the field in terms of team needs. Cable will continually discuss this with Davis (as he has), and Davis seems to trust Cable. So part of the problem is solved right there.
As to whether Davis will hire someone who could be regarded as a GM, you're guess is as good as mine. Davis has said he needs help and that he has an idea of where to get it. That's all any of us know. Is Davis talking to that person? I don't know, and neither does anybody else. If it's somebody that Al trusts, one might expect that that person can keep a secret too.
And right now, if Cable is the solution to Davis' problem, or if the solution is in the form of a GM, that's ultimately a decision that will be made by Davis himself. Whether it's the right or wrong decision, only next season will tell the tail.
If anyone is expecting guarantees, you're not going to get them whether you refuse to buy season tickets or not. Guarantees are of no value for ANY team in the NFL.
Blanda, (MVP) Rich Gannon took us to the SB, not Callahan (see following season stats);
Turner was handed the keys to a 14-2 team in SD, and has since coached them to an alarming decline (8-8);
And, Kiffin hasn’t proven anything, yet.
There’s no proof these guys were smart (even reasonable) picks for anybody, and certainly not the Raiders.
Part of the gross mismanagement with Kiffin was keeping him through the off-season and four games of the regular season, despite the lingering and childish breakdown in communication between he and Davis.
As for your definition of what a GM does...
"...help with information regarding how the team practices, the attitudes of the players and coaches, and the feelings on the field in terms of team needs."
Where do I send my resume? I'm certain I'm qualified for that position.
Blanda
You say nobody knows what is going on in Raiderland, yet you proclaim to know that Cable has already been named the HC. Please explain how you know, and if you are wrong, will that be a mistake by Uncle Al? What is the benefit of not naming Cable now?
And lets not forget Take, it is not only the last 6 years. We have had 3 good seasons sandwiched in between 15 years of crap and mediocrity. To make matters worse, Davis choked away our SB. If we had kept Gruden 1 more year, we would have won the SB. The only reason we lost is because Gruden knew everything we were going to do before we did!
Roy
Bama7
Roy: "We have had 3 good seasons sandwiched in between 15 years of crap and mediocrity. To make matters worse, Davis choked away our SB. If we had kept Gruden 1 more year, we would have won the SB. The only reason we lost is because Gruden knew everything we were going to do before we did!"
Bravo... correct. Well said.
This board has primarily been a forum for fighting between two types of Radier fans:
1) Raider fans who want to win even if it means Al is not a part of it.
2) Raider fans who want to win, but only if Al is a part of it.
I find this humorous from you BR, because there are some similar points in here being made by RT and others that you are constantly trying to dispute!
BR said, "1. First, I have repeatedly stated what I believe to be the cause of the last six seasons. And I have apportioned that blame throughout the organization."
True you have, you've blamed everyone else in the organization with the exception of Al Davis.
Later in your ramblings about Al picking the wrong coaches, you forget to mention that NONE of these coaches were able to bring in their own coaching staff. You also failed to mention that Callahan took us to the Super Bowl with Jon Gruden's team and philosophy; just like Gruden won his Super Bowl with Tony Dungy's team.
You also fail to mention that the Raiders did not have a solid coach before Gruden since Art Shell I, and Tom Flores before him.
We are not expecting guarantees, we are expecting a change in how Al runs his football operations; because it is no longer working.
"2. I have clearly stated that Al Davis can no longer run the team entirely the way he has run it in the past. In the past he spent a lot of time on the practice field and in the locker room, gaining a clear picture of the internal workings of his team, and then traveling the country and getting the outside view. At 80 he's become less mobile, and he doesn't have the people around him who he trusts enough to provide the information he no longer has access to on a regular basis."
Regarding your second point, you contradict yourself by saying this in an earlier post, "I don't believe that the only way to turn the ship around is to discard the Raiders' 40 some odd years of operational theory."
I disagree, I think this is a HUGE reason why the Raiders are where they are, and why Al Davis WILL NOT hire the help he needs to get the Raiders back on the right track. Because in order to hire the help he needs, he will have to change the majority of how he manages his football operations. He can still be secretive, look at what Pioli is doing in KC. Nobody knows what is going on behind closed doors with the exception that Pioli is sweeping the dirt out. Davis can still be the poker player that he is when it comes to personnel moves; but at some point he is going to have to let the coaches coach with the people they are comfortable with.
With that said, later in the post you contradict yourself with this blast, "I think that the team needs to realize that there are now limitations on the way that they operate, and that these new limitations must be accounted for and addressed."
How do you think those limitations are addressed? By changing the way you operate to strengthen those limitations!
Continuing, you ended with this that matches to what you said at the end of your second point (so in note, 3 contradictions within itself, and one consistent agreement), "I do think that Al Davis needs some help because of his physical limitations, but I still trust Al Davis to identify that help for himself. He's said he know that he needs it, and I'll let him figure out in what form it comes."
The limitations of the Raiders go beyond Al Davis' health. His health is 1 small aspect of the limitations. John Herrera and the other circus clowns in the front office are other limitations. The lack of a GM is another limitation. The ego of Al Davis is the biggest limitation, because his ego is the #1 factor of why he won't change the way he operates.
"3. I have also stated that it is Al Davis who must determine the nature of the help he needs and the source of it. Otherwise he's just relinquishing the keys to the kingdom."
As owner he has that right to determine how much help he needs and the source of it; but this statement puts us back to square one of your circular argument. The help he thinks he needs does not address the limitations of how he runs his football organizations; but he hires "help" that strengthens those limitations. So again, how can he expect the organization to change to right the ship; if he doesn't change some of his philosophies of running a football organization?
4. I have also clearly stated the there is a cone of silence that falls over the Raiders during the playoffs, and no clear picture can be obtained of what the organization is planning, nor the seasonal direction."
That is true, and there are numerous other football organizations that do the same. More recently, the Dolphins, Chiefs (see earlier comment about Pioli), Denver, Cowboys, etc. So I don't dispute that fact. The difference is these other teams have adjusted their limitations in how they handle their football operations. The Dolphins were a lot like the Raiders in recent years; Don Shula and company, continued to run down that franchise with their tired philosophy and unwillingness to change that philosophy. Now that Parcells came in and cleaned house, they are a different team. In order for the Raiders to "get back to their winning ways" there is going to have to be a change in philosophy; starting with how Al Davis runs his football operations. Anything less, is not change.
Ok, I believe Cable is currently the HC unannounced. I also believe, based on reports that he is conducting interviews and making recommendations, that Cable is working as psuedo GM at the moment. I previously stated so (see my 7:09 AM post). As we all know he is in charge of the delegation at the Senior Bowl.
If what I have heard Cable say himself is true, he is a life long fan of the Raiders. I have no reason to doubt that. Perhaps, just perhaps, he is as big a fan of the team as we all her.
Maybe it hasn't been announced because his full role hasn't determined yet. He may have some additional personnel duties along with HC. Al maybe leaning on him heavily.
The elephant might still be in the room, but maybe it's been shrunk from an adult African Bull to a juvenile Asian. It's still an elephant, but it may be a few thousand pounds lighter.
H
H...
With such a nice logical-n-positive approach you must be a "Spin Doctor"...I love it...Positive Vibe in such a Negative environment....Keep it up Bro...
Something you don't want to read...Scot Polie is the "Tuna"s son-in-law and wants him in "KC"...
http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/449
PantyRaider....Bring Home the "Tuna"!!!/_
Looking ahead...Draft Day...
At the #7 pick the Raiders will go one of three ways if those players are still on the board...If not we may address the "OL"-or-"DL"....
#1...Michael Crabtree, WR, Texas Tech
#2...Vontae Davis, CB, Illinois - 6'0- 204
#3...Rey Maualuga, LB, USC - 6'3- 260
Remember "MrD" wants the best player at a specific position rather than the 2nd or 3rd best in a position of need....The "OT"s are pegged to go earlier before the #7 pick but one of these players should fall to us and be the best at that position and satisfy a need...
PantyRaider...Early Picks for the Record!!!/_
First off, I've state clearly why I believe that Cable is the choice for HC. Read my posts. Second, it doesn't discard the entire organizational theory to claim that Davis needs some help. What I've essentially said is that theory needs some adjustment in view of Davis' physical limitations.
And if Cable turns out not to be the choice - do I think Al will have then made a mistake? Well, that depends on who is choice actually is, doesn't it.
I certainly believe that what Cable has been building must be maintained and allowed to progress, but if Davis finds a way to do that without Cable as his HC - well, I'll make that call when we get there.
Oh...
Can I think of a reason why Cable hasn't been announced if he's the choice. I've already answered that question too. If Cable knows he's the choice, he's not twisting in the wind. Also Davis uses these periods to get a feel for as much of the coaching talent that's out there as he can. If he makes the announcement, interviews are over. Pay particular attention to the potential assistants Davis is meeting under the pretense of having an HC position available.
I think Davis has told Cable that he's the choice barring someone coming in and blowing Davis' socks off. If that happens, I think Cable has then agreed to return has O-Line/AHC. But, by and large, Cable is going through exactly the same process that both Gruden and Callahan went through before becoming HCs.
Oh...
Can I think of a reason why Cable hasn't been announced if he's the choice. I've already answered that question too. If Cable knows he's the choice, he's not twisting in the wind. Also Davis uses these periods to get a feel for as much of the coaching talent that's out there as he can. If he makes the announcement, interviews are over. Pay particular attention to the potential assistants Davis is meeting under the pretense of having an HC position available.
I think Davis has told Cable that he's the choice barring someone coming in and blowing Davis' socks off. If that happens, I think Cable has then agreed to return has O-Line/AHC. But, by and large, Cable is going through exactly the same process that both Gruden and Callahan went through before becoming HCs.
ok, so now i get it.
while al is secretly interviewing top candidates for all open coaching positions. somehow we've got to stop these bad coaches from sneaking into the building.
someone, call security quick !!!
Thanks Panty, I am forever the optimist. Does me no good to be otherwise.
Also, I see nothing in the reports I've read to make me think think Cable is not coming back. Maybe Big Al has finally found his Locasale. Someone he can trust. Someone who is not here to put another notch on his resume.
Cable strikes me as the kind you can make a handshake deal with and know he won't break it. Someone whose agent won't be mentioning his name with every college opening.
If they've shaken hands, the next few weeks will be a test for both.
All blue sky conjecture I know, but hey it beats the hell out of what some of the so called media are saying.
H
H,
this coach your describing, is it loyalty, or a coach no one else wants to hire ?
it a thin line.
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