Time to Grill The SeaChickens
Okay, no real take here, except that I hope we leave the clown car in the garage and play some real football.
Also, with this thread, I hope to clear out some of the noxious air that blew into the comments section of the previous take.
We can always agree to disagree. Vociferous debate is the lifeblood of this site. So have a take, and defend your take, but please keep it classy and avoid the personal stuff. I'm not going to let this site become another run-of-the-mill forum full of unproductive finger pointing.
We are all Raiders fans. At the end of the day, we are a team, and we stick together. It's the other teams that we need to start beating.
Also, with this thread, I hope to clear out some of the noxious air that blew into the comments section of the previous take.
We can always agree to disagree. Vociferous debate is the lifeblood of this site. So have a take, and defend your take, but please keep it classy and avoid the personal stuff. I'm not going to let this site become another run-of-the-mill forum full of unproductive finger pointing.
We are all Raiders fans. At the end of the day, we are a team, and we stick together. It's the other teams that we need to start beating.
posted by Raider Take at 5:48 PM
356 Comments:
I saw some "words of wisdom" football related quotes on some site today. I found the below quote particularly appropos for the Raiders. IMO, we will have truly turned the corner when you see disciplined play & solid execution on a consistent basis. The difference between a W & a L often comes down 1 play, 1 error, 1 turnover, 1 costly penalty, etc.
Enjoy the game. CJ :=D
"Football games aren't won — they're lost." — Fielding Yost
Not just a slogan for defensive-minded teams, but for all teams. What the legendary University of Michigan coach was driving at was the importance of execution and mental focus. The team that makes the fewest mistakes often wins the game, whether in the form of penalties, turnovers, dropped passes or missed assignments, or a combination of all of the above. During his 25-year tenure in Ann Arbor , Yost won 165 games, lost 29 and tied 10.
"...please keep it classy...."
Yeah, but does that mean we can't be childish and type "1st"? S%$@! Calico beat me to it.
One more time, for those who dare, here's the link to watch the live feed on your computer. Try it at you're own risk. I can't promise your system won't meltdown during the game.
http://www.atdhe.net/index.html
Rankin Yes..Russell no
Nik Miller yes...Justin Miller no
Bryant Yes.....Sands no
Garcia yes...Gradkowski yes Frye no
Trade a RB for LB,
Pick up one of the DE cuts of Shithawks. Make sure the running game is primed and ready for Monday night. Is Huff even on the team anymore?
JONES
Rankin once again looks good in pre-season. Unlike last year, however, he may not clear waivers to stick on the practice squad.
Otherwise, making cuts shouldn't be too difficult.
Calico,
mr. yost had a great record in his 25 yr body of work.
al davis also had a excellent 25 yr run.
but unlike mr yost, davis is still going at it, determined to drive his own legacy six feet into the ground.
the man needs someone to save him from himself.
On 3rd and 6-9 yrds....the offense of playcalling reminds me a lot of Walsh's. Deep routes, 3-4wr, too long developing, outlet rec.(RB) is always short of the 1st down. None of this better happen on Monday...Quick routes, not deep, get the freakin 1st down, ball control....it's getting a bit scary with this team....looks all to familiar.
JONES
I love Rankin. He is decisive, good body lean moving forward, and a suprising burst. Unless Davis is no longer sentimental and loyal towards Fargas, I don't see Rankin making the final 53 man roster. Personally, and this is the fist time I've said this, I think it would be wise to let go of Fargas 1 year too soon than 1 year too late. Going into the season with McFadden, Bush, Rankin, seems more than adequate in terms of RB depth.
This game was another blow out but I don't see it as a clown car type game. Perhaps 1 big clown shoe game. Besides the boarderline players who are fighting for the final few spots on the 53 man spot, this game was meaningless and did nothing to boost our team's confidence level.
I concur with my dear frind Jones on his "yes/no" cuts.
Our final 8 DLineman is not looking too good:
Ellis, Warren, Kelly, Richardson
Bryant, Joseph, Boschetti
What I'd like to see happen is for Cable to tinker with putting Kelly at DE on 20% to 30% of the snaps with either Bryant or Joseph filling in at DT.
Which DL group would be better at stopping the run?
Ellis, Warren, Kelly, Scott/Richardson
or
Ellis, Warren, Bryant, Kelly
As we all know, Kelly earlier in his career was quite a proficient DE especially at holding up at the point of attack.
Correction on 8 man DL:
I forgot T.Scott. Speaking of T.Scott, he has no business being on the field with the exception of obvious passing downs.
Great takes, great observations!
Not a clown car performance, true. But not exactly the "answer" I was hoping for, either. Hope that it's better than it looks right now.
we are losing 31-7, with 10 minutes to go in game.
should we feel "embarassed", or just write it off as a meaningless pre season game ?
i know they don't count, but these blowouts are making me a little nervous.
From JMac: "In the eight quarters since the Raiders took a 14-3 lead after three quarters against the 49ers, they’ve been outscored 94-20."
Ellis , Warren, Bryant , Kelly. Though, Kelly is needed as a body for inside. Watched Bryant later in the game, he played quite a bit, he looked gassed. If we can't have dominance on the DL, at least we have a few bodies to stay fresh. Would rather have a starting 4, that are good, that play the whole game and not get gassed.
DB's, still weak at safety, avg at LB and no one dominant on the DL
WR's still a ?, QB has depth if Russell doesn't do it. RB is the strongest point of the team, just ahead of the punt team, lol. OL...avg at best. Coaching.....looks very familiar.
JONES
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Satele played well into the game, and looked like he was getting pushed around by their backups. At one point he was pushed back into (and tripped) the QB.
Center should be a big concern since he's the anchor of the OL and makes the line calls. I believe Satele's deficiency in the latter is why he was left in there.
Calico -
Welcome to the Rankin fan club. RBs have such short shelf-lifes that getting new blood is always wise (FIFO). The Broncos rotated young RBs like Rankin in their corps very successfully for many years (and used their top draft picks on other positions).
Also, I agree with your point to place Kelly outside. At DE is the only time I remember him having any success.
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Well the practice games are over... and like watching a magic show, nobody really is sure what they saw.
The people who still are having problems living with the embarrassment of the last 6 years of futility are in full panic mode, and even the most optimistic of us are scratching our heads... but in the end none of us will know how well this team will play until they play an actual game.
If one were to REALLY put much emphasis on what we saw during the practice games, we would have to conclude that the 09' Raiders are going to be a pass happy team that rarely if ever runs.
Cmon... is there really anyone here thinking that??
I mean.. thats what we saw... it must be true, right?
While, generally, I'd agree with Rankin over Russell, Russell is a power back and can provide relief at FB as well as HB. Since we cut Neal, and O'Neil was injured all last season, he might be a good choice to keep.
However, if we want to turn Rankin loose, we won't get anything for him. Fargas might be another story, because he has been effective in the regular season. I'd suggest that we attempt to trade Fargas, and keep McFadden, Bush, Rankin, O'Neal and Russell.
I'm not sure about the safety position. My feeling at this point is that they've had to mix and match too much in the preseason for the safeties to have settled in. I think Huff will start out as the starting FS, with Branch as the SS. Mitchell might well move out in front of Huff after a few games.
Gary, no question the Raiders will be a run heavy team. I don't think this preseason will at all reflect how we game plan in the regular season. I think Cable used the preseason to upgrade the passing game, knowing that the running game will take care of itself.
The upside is that with a pass heavy offense, Russell has been a 65% passer. With a heavy run load mixed in, our passing game could actually become impressive.
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In the Raiders best years for D-Lines they were always flexible in positioning. Frequently DTs would jump outside to DE and DEs would move inside to DT. It made it difficult for the O-Line to focus on any one man. That was part of Long's success, Townsend's success, and a few others.
I don't so much agree that Kelly is having NO success at DT. The runs seem to succeed on the opposite side. And Kelly is certainly not a pass rusher, but a clog the line type.
If we pick up Boone, it will be interesting to see what he has to offer. The word is that KC has switched to a 3-4, and Boone is unsuited for that - like Sapp was in the 3-4.
As Morris started last night at center, it looks like he may have well moved ahead of Santele on the depth chart. If so, I'd give Santele a shot at RG. That's where he played last year in Miami.
Santele's problem doesn't seem to be his ability, but calling the O-Line assignments in this system. The ability to handle that is key to the protection of JRuss and opening holes for the RBs. Moving Santele to RT would keep him in the game, and allow him to better acquaint himself with this system.
Star QB Andrew Walter was cut by the Pats.
That game wasn't bad at all, definitely not a clown car game. I mean, you'd never know from the hilarious amount of shit-talking my friends did (they were all super impressed with Mike Teel completing passes on Justin Miller), but we did alright, particularly against the run. I can't remember the last time a team ran the ball against the Raiders for three yards a carry. This may mean we've managed to work out some of the kinks in the run D, and can focus more on pressuring the quarterback, our other big weakness. Or it may just mean that Seattle has a crappy rushing attack again.
By the way, I learned from these Seahawks fans that Nnamdi is way overrated because he doesn't make a lot of interceptions, and Marcus Trufant is better. Can we all let out a hearty Raider laugh?
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Dammit PR, would you fix your punctuation!!!
(Just kidding, you're one of my favorite posters on here!)
Jamarcus can't hold onto the ball for 5 seconds inside our own 10 yard line. WTF was up with that?
Looks like the O-line is by far our biggest problem. If we can't control the ball, our D is going to get worn down and crushed like it was all year last year.
Was good to see a little D penetration this preseason though.
Cable has really been trying to get the passing game working. We only rushed the ball 11 times against the saints. Can that be right? Of course we were down by 21 in like 2 minutes.
I think a few of those high passes that went off fingertips would have been caught by Chaz. I don't think we ever really saw in the preseason the play calling we will see in week 1. But we sure can't count on the zebra's to get us downfield once the season starts.
Although I do think two of those long PI's could have been caught if the DB's hadn't interfered.
Miller was useless in coverage (heard he has turf toe). Miller looked pretty good on returns. Starting to look like both positions are pretty thin. If we had a Nnamdi caliber WR starting it wouldn't be so bad (chaz?). I think I've given up on Walker (for about the 5th time), personally, I think it take him a full year to get back into football shape since he's wheels have been bad for so long. And I don't think he really has the drive to do that. Maybe he proves me wrong (hope so, we sure need him)
Bring on the F-ing dischargers. If we stink it up, hey, maybe we can get Terrance Cody in the draft and finally get that D-line beefed up. I'm just sick of preseason and ready to get it on!
Bama should roll VT's @ss, and hopefully Al's misfits will surprise us.
-moshbucket
Yeah, holding on to the ball too long is still a big concern with Jamarcus. That's what's frustrating with him as a player. It's so obvious to see the incredible talent level there (however not for my intrepid Seahawks fan friends, who were able to tell that he's worse than Seneca Wallace by one short completed pass), but he renders it moot by fumbling. Gotta say, though, at least he hasn't "pulled a Vick", so to speak, and ran backwards to the tune of a 20-something yard loss. :)
For our DLine to be able to contain the opponent's run offense to an acceptable level, all 8 DLineman need to be utilized, mixed and matched, and be kept fresh. Call it a DL by committee or the possibility of the sum being greater than the parts but here's what I see:
Ellis - Strictly DE; Good base end; good pass rusher; average run stopper; will need to be an integral leader for the DL to stay focused and motivated.
Warren - NT/UT; At times, gets good penetration but overall performance seems up and down. Is he inconsistency of being on the field too much and getting gassed?
Kelly - UT/DE; seems to be having the best overall camp/preseason of the entire group. Would like to see him used 20%+ of his snaps at DE.
T.Scott - Strictly a situational pass rushing DE who should receive no more than 15 snaps per game when it is an obvious passing situation.
Richardson - DE; average pass rusher + average run stopper. Had his best game vs. the SeaChickens. Should probably start.
Bryant - UT/NT; big body, extremely active and is making great headway of being the key rotational guy at DT.
Boschetti - DT/DE; sort of a tweener in that he is small for a DT and big for a DE; very high motor and supposedly stirs shit up (in a good way) during practice; very scrappy and solid tackler
Joseph - DT; has been a LONG term project in the NFL after having a great career at UMiami. Needs to be leaned on to give both Warren and Kelly a much needed blow.
I saw Joseph make a push into the backfield a couple times. Not sure if he has that in him on a regular basis.
The SeaChickens game is very difficult to gauge... being it was the last ps game and mostly reserves played for both teams.
However, I said after the Dallas game that it look as though the Raiders have improved their depth. After watching the three subsequent games, I'm not certain I still feel that way.
We've lost TEN consecutive games in prime time. Are we finally ready for prime time? I can't wait to find out.
RT: Why not kill 2 big FN birds with one righteous stone ... 10 consecutive losses on prime time and 11 consecutive losses to the Bolts.
Another quote worth pondering when reflecting on the current Raiders woes ...
"Football is blocking and tackling. Everything else is mythology." — Lombardi
I love this quote from the godfather of coaching. It breaks the game down to the core essence. Many fans, myself included, get distracted by a host of topics related to Raider football yet this quote says it all.
CJ:
"'Football is blocking and tackling. Everything else is mythology.' — Lombardi"
Hell. And. Yes.
'Nuff said.
---Jeff
I can remember when the Raiders were made for prime time. Best MNF record in the league, hands down. And they were one of the most frequently scheduled MNF teams.
10 in a row, huh? Ouch!
Block and tackle. Block and tackle.
SURPRISE! Profootballtalk is saying we cut Garcia. Smart move, I think, but I didn't think they'd be smart enough to do it. I felt like Gradkowski and Frye were both showing more in the games I saw. Cable is supposed to be going over the cuts as we speak, so we'll know for sure relatively soon. Apparently Sands and Boschetti were also cut.
Cut: (On Raiders.com transaction page)
Released:
S Jerome Boyd
DB Darrick Brown
DE Greyson Gunheim
WR Jonathan Holland
OL James Marten
LB David Nixon
LB Slade Norris
LB Chris O'Neill
FB Marcel Reece
RB Gary Russell
P/K Ricky Schmitt
TE Darrell Strong
OL Mark Wilson
DT Ryan Boschetti
QB Jeff Garcia
LB Morlon Greenwood
CB Justin Miller
DT Terdell Sands
T Seth Wand
Waived/Injured:
DB Michael Hawkins
DB Rashad Baker
C John Wade
---------------------------------
Glad to see Nick Miller and Louis Rankin making the final 53 man roster.
Sure hope JaMarcus Russell can stay healthy. Otherwise, we're back in Rick Mirer territory.
"Sure hope JaMarcus Russell can stay healthy. Otherwise, we're back in Rick Mirer territory."
You really think so? I think Frye and Gradkowski are both better than Mirer. Gradkowski showed me at least as much as Garcia, and I'm actually a bit impressed with Frye. Going by how they played the end of last year and the preseason, I don't think they're much of a downgrade from Garcia, and both have some potential for upside.
Oh, and Nick Miller made my day. Way to go Coach Cable!
Disappointed to see Slade Norris cut. Don't know what the reasoning is for that. I guess Sam Williams gets the advantage because of his special teams experience, but I still wish they would have found a way to get him a spot. I guess they must know something I don't, because I thought he looked alright.
RT-
Through the preseason I read about Frye and Grdski and watched them play OK as Garcia could not. I thought to myself that no matter how these younger guys played the Raiders would defer to Garcia. IMHO I know that leadership is an issue, and I still think cable is bugel, but this seems the right move.
Gradkowski has started one game over the past two seasons, and Frye has started two games over the past three seasons. Both were once starters, and now they are not. They have not distinguished themselves at all.
To suggest that they aren't a major dropoff from Russell is either wishful thinking or a low opinion of Russell.
These guys may be competent, but that's about all I would expect from them. Just keepin' it real, folks.
Of course, that's a separate issue of whether or not cutting Garcia was the right move.
Personally, I would be much more confident with Garcia in the event of a Russell injury. He has distinguished himself. He has proven himself, even if his skills are on the decline.
The Mirer quip was perhaps a bit premature, but if you look at his stats and career compared to Frye and Gradkowski, they're pretty much a wash.
53 men wanted for a single purpose.
Al and Cable made some nice cuts. Though some of Al’s water boys made the roster spot i.e. Sam Williams. I like some of the moves. With Turd Dell Sands finally gone!!!! We can celebrate that one for the whole season. JacMac is right calling Sands a “colossal bust," no doubt about it. I really like Desmond Bryant and I hope he turns into something special but better than Tommy Kelly; in every sense of the word.
Nice to see Nick Miller on the roster and can’t wait to see how we use him. I like this kid, and hope he can become half of the player that Wes Welker is. Garcia being cut makes sense. He just didn’t have the mindset of being back up. We all knew this after the signing. I watched him last night and he just didn’t put the ball where it needed to be. I think Garcia mentally checked out after the calf injury. He won’t be out of a job too soon. Clubs need a guy like Garcia especially if he can start. Imagine him joining the Loins who need a presence in the pocket.
Gradkowski or Frye? I personally like Frye over Gradkowski. They both played well during their times with their pervious clubs. But Frye is more polished and would like to see him 2nd to JaMarcus. Gradkowski doesn’t shy away from a collapsing pocket and make every effort to make a play. Frye is clean and accurate on his throws and I like his dedication during the offseason. Watch’s a lot of tape and studies a lot.
Not a fan of Todd Watkins.
I just hope we can pick up some quality players via the cuts. There are some quality players out there and we could use the depth and experience.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-ownerrankingspartone09020&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Interesting article, but not far from the truth.
Garcia didn't show much in pre-season, but he was injured through part of it.
At the end of the day, he brings experience and savvy to the position; and he's a far better safety net than the two backups we retained.
This move is a head scratcher for me.
Releasing Justin Miller was the right move because of his turf toe. That's a nagging injury. Plus, he's a liability in pass coverage.
Welcome Louis Rankin. It's about time. He's got talent. Just hope he remembers NOT to run out of bounds if and when we're trying to run down the clock (as he did last pre-season).
Shame about R Baker. He played well for us late last year.
With the level of talent we have at DT, Sands must be a real, well, talentless Turd.
A couple of these guys may find there way back to the team.
"To suggest that they aren't a major dropoff from Russell is either wishful thinking or a low opinion of Russell."
What? You must have misread something I posted, because I didn't suggest, hint, imply or state anything remotely similar to the idea that either guy is on Russell's level. My point was that I'm not sure either is a major drop-off from Garcia, who I wasn't impressed with in the action I saw him in. I don't think we got the Jeff Garcia from Philly and Tampa.
"These guys may be competent, but that's about all I would expect from them. Just keepin' it real, folks."
That's all I'm saying. I'm not being unrealistic, I'm just saying that I think both are fairly competent, and at least better than ol' Rick "Can't throw to the left" Mirer. The stats may not reflect that, but hey, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
Fair enough. I meant it as a general statement/challenge, but I see how you could take it as me putting words in your mouth. My first comment was directed at neither your nor memdf.
That's why I followed up by elaborating specifically on the Mirer comparison and the Garcia cut.
Ah, I see. I thought that might have been the case, but it seemed too specific.
The biggest head scratcher to me is WR Watkins making the final 53 man roster in spite of WR Nick Miller making it too. We now have 7 WRs on the roster
Walker
Schilens
JLH
DHB
Murphy
Miller
Watkins
I suspect that Watkins will be cut in the next 7 days to make room for a pick up from the other teams scrap heaps. We shall see.
I rate Frye slightly ahead of Gradowski due to arm strength to make all the throws in the playbook.
Although we are all in agreement that it was long overdue for Rankin to get elevated to the 53 man roster, you just wonder what contribution he will make (if any) as the #4 RB ... does Rankin play in special teams?
The $1.9M bonus that Sands reaped a few months ago stings.
I'm seriously hoping that DT Desmond Bryant is that rare player who came from a non-football power (Harvard) who achieves beyond anyone's wildest expectations. We all know he is big enough, strong enough, smart enough, and has the type of "get after it" motor that gives him an opportunity to be a real breath of fresh air.
Final Note:
For all the fans and media that have been on Russell's back for not improving, developing, progressing fast enough to their liking ... I call BS.
ESPN magazine had a very interesting statline comparing Russell to both Flacco and Ryan for the last 7 games of the 2008 season. Guess what? Russell outplayed both and had a higher QB Rating (88).
we will live to regret cutting garcia man. if your messiah goes down, we're up shit creek without a paddle!
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Maybe, Garcia being cut came down to the Raiders not wanting to hear chants of "Gar-ci-a" if Russell struggles. I don't believe they lack confidence in Russell, but fans can be brutal.
Otherwise, there's no way you can convince me these other two, no-name backups are a better option at QB if Russell gets injured.
We are extemely thin at CB. Routt has not played well this pre-season, and Bowie? Come on. This is a vintage Al Davis save face move. All I can say is the Raiders better figure out a way to get more QB pressure, particularly if Nnamdi or Johnson get injured.
Sam Williams sticks again? He's not even a decent backup, yet he keeps surfacing as the Raiders go to guy. WTF? Will they keep Huff year after year in this same vein?
This will all make sense in one week... or not.
Holy Crap! Richard Seymour just traded to the Raiders for a 2011 draft pick...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4450767
That'll fix the run "D"... maybe.
A #1 pick? Hmmm...
So DE Burgess goes there for a #3 and #5, and then we get DE Seymour for our #1...and I'm going to hope that we didn't just get schooled by the Patriots.
I'm happy to have him, of course. But it's the cost and the timing that concern me.
Maybe Al is getting tired of first round picks. They're overpriced and a role of the dice.
Seymore will DEFINATELY help the run D. All due respect to the kid, sacking Brett and nice passrush moves here and there just wasn't getting it done.
-moshbucket
Fair point, but Seymour himself was a #1 pick and the Patriots got eight years out of him. If you draft well, you can still get value.
There's a certain "roll of the dice" factor to the draft, sure. But with us, there's also been a certain "running with scissors" factor. There are teams that consistently draft well, and it's not a coincidence or an accident.
There's also a contract factor:
"Seymour, 29, has been an integral part of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl teams. He was entering the last year of his contract, and was due to make $3.685 million. That money now comes off the Patriots’ salary cap.
With several key players with contracts set to expire after the season, the Patriots must have felt that re-signing Seymour wasn’t likely, so they decided to get what they deemed fair value now.
In acquiring a first-round draft choice in 2011, the Patriots appear to have the NFL’s uncertain labor forecast in mind. That could be the first year with a rookie cap. The economics of top first-round draft choices currently make those choices undesirable, but with a cap, the value of those picks could skyrocket.
The flip side of the strategy, however, is that there is no guarantee of a rookie cap. Also, if owners and players can’t agree on a new collective bargaining agreement, there is no guarantee that there will be football in 2011. Furthermore, while the Raiders have struggled in recent years, there is no certainty the pick will be in the top half of the round."
I like the acquistion, but a 1st rd pick? Yikes!
Ever since the Tuck game, the Patriots just continue to spank us.
Burgess will probably get like 12-14 sacks this year.
Meanwhile, Seymour will be on an island trying to make a terrible defense into an average D.
The opposite direction of these two players has nothing to do with individual talent.
The Seymour trade certifies beyond any doubt that Al has lost it. I mean, come on. Why are we always propping the Patriots up, and at what cost? Basically, we are a lackluster team with or without Seymour. The price? Seymour jets to another team and we're without a first round pick. Wake up Al. We're rebuilding you dope, not looking for the final piece of a championship caliber team. Unreal.
The Seymour trade is practical. But in what sense? Seymour plays strickly DE but ppl are thinking he'll play DE and DT in a 3-4? Al will not allow a 3-4 or will he?
For a future 1st round, might be too high of a price. Pat fans are cheering cause they think they'll have a top 10 pick. I hope that doens't happen.
Looks like Al needs to sell another 10% of the team to sign Seymour beyond this year. Though ppl around the league claim Al is strapped for cash and is looking for a few investors.
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Side Note:
Why does Al constantly deal with the Pats? Isn't it enough humiliation that we lost our chances for a 4th ring during the 'Tuck Rule' I mean come on.......we could have dealt with 30 other teams. Minus of course the 9ers. The NFL already gave them their SB Al, why keep giving them more ammo.
Laughing stock of the NFL we are….
For 2009 this is a needed and smart move.
Will Seymour play DT? Even if he plays DE, there is no question he is the kind of veteran other teammates should listen to and respect(3 rings do that sort of thing.)
Will seymour back up his earned respect with more solid, outstanding play for the Raiders, as well as provide veteran leadership?
Another possible benifit here. Seymour may have wanted a big payraise. Al loves to give them. Well, now, Al gets a one year audition. There wont be any Dante Halls in this transaction.
Yes, a first in 2011 has an impact, but right now I am looking at one of the best defensive linemen in the NFL bolstering a weeeaaaak run defense in 2009.
We wont know if this deal works out for some time, but on my first impression, I like it...Go Raiders!
SCAR
And, as if things couldn't get any better today...
Shawn Merriman just went to jail:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/sports/Merriman-Arrested-for-Allegedly-Choking-Tila-Tequila--57607562.html
Seymour just got traded from a SB contender. Let's hope he even wants to play for the Raiders, i.e., put forth an effort worthy of his abilities.
We've seen this D&P show before.
LOL@ Merriman.
Dude. Once again you prove that nothing good ever happens at three in the morning.
What a waste.
Thanks for the post, Stick 'em.
---Jeff
You know you REALLY have Al Davis Dementia Syndrome (ADDS) if you take the time out from complaining that Al Davis always wastes his first round draft pick and never does anything to improve our line... to complain that we traded away our fist round draft pick to instantly IMPROVE OUR LINE!
What, stopping the run suddenly didn't become a PRIORITY now???
After MONTHS of complaining about it???
Infuckingcredible.
Bama7
Seymour's a good move and that's not just bias from an old Dawg fan. He's a good move because, other than Ellis, he's better than anything we have now AND Al would've more than likely blown the 1st round pick anyway. At least this way we know we can't blame any future bad play on the player or on a busted draft pick. Seymour's a pro bowler that has consistently played all facets of the DL game well, albeit in a 3-4. I remember him at Georgia playing DT... so he will be adept at playing the run wherever we put him. He's not SUPER GREAT, but he is better than anything we have... a very, very solid DL.
RT, i agree on Garcia... he was a winner that we might need this season.
Did anyone pick up D Brooks? If we now also add a good LB, we might be able to salvage the season on D.
Alas, I see Sammy Williams gets another year of service granted without merit.
Gary, there are alternatives to wasting draft picks and waiting to address a chronically ignored need until seven days before the start of the season by giving away a top draft pick to a 29-year-old lineman in the last year of his contract.
Such as...not wasting draft picks and not chronically ignoring a fundamental need until seven days before the start of the season.
Yes, Seymour can help us. Yes, we need help on the line. But the cost and the timing of this transaction are questionable.
It smacks of desperation to me.
Why do we still find ourselves so desperate yet again, after so many high draft picks and free agent signings over the last several years?
Ummmmm... Would you not agree, RT, that up to this point, our Run D has been friggin' desperate?
Yes, it smacks of desperation. However, it's an immediate upgrade.
Methinks we're too used to complaining to stare an immediate upgrade in the face.
Some of that "too-good-to-be-true" mojo is definitely needed around here.
Have some kool-aid. I'm buyin'. Need some friggin' happy juice around here...
---Jeff
I love Seymour's durability, versatility, high character, and strong abilities to play the run and pass. Sure there are risks and costs associated with acquiring a multi-pro bowl/SB player ... and you have a problem with that RT? Very suprised by your current outlook and perspective ... drink a pint of Guinness and get back to me. CJ
I hear you, and maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong.
It just seems like we're always jumping around putting out fires instead of having a steady rebuilding plan.
It's not like Seymour is free. He's in a contract year, and he's already cost us a #1 pick.
It's the cost-benefit analysis that has me concerned. If I'm just focusing on the benefit, then sure, this is a great move.
I can tell I'm going to be unpopular today. I'm like the cranky designated driver, telling everyone it's time to leave the party. I just hope y'all don't have a major hangover.
I just think a move like this (right before the season opener, in a contract year at 29 years old, at the cost of a top pick) is the kind of move you make when you're missing a piece, not when you're missing a bunch of pieces.
desperation or not, the complaint would be,we sat back and did nothing when the run-D problem was staring us in the face with a winnable division at our feet. Al made a move to win, THIS YEAR. isn't that what you want, it's not like it was his only move, we made several moves this offseason. we still have holes to fill but who doesn't? you can't solve them all overnight. it's a work in progress and i think your getting your progress. this was a bold move for help NOW. we have a chance at this division title, and we all know Al plays for this year.
no telling what we could have got with the low end 1st rounder (hopefully) two years from now, but who cares when we could win this division this year with a little help in some problem areas now.
" will gladly pay you wednesday for a hambuger today" -whimpy
frkyraider
It's beyond a mere risk. It's a formula that that can not be solved. What are the odds that Seymour stays a Raider after this season? It won't happen most likely. Moreover, if our first rounders are busts than I guess Gary is already saying that McFadden and Russell are busts. What kind of twisted logic is that? Look, if Seymour was joining an already stellar defense and winning team, this would be a great move. For a rebuilding team, one that Al conceded last season was far away from being a winner, this move makes no sense at all. "Desperation" is exactly the right descriptor for this move.
Guess I'm not entirely alone on the island!
It's the kind of move that we all applauded the Raiders for NOT making so for this year.
Seymour is unquestionably an upgrade, but at an incredible cost (1st rd pick for one year of service).
Couldn't we have traded this year's draft pick for Seymour? Did I just type that out loud? Fact is, we had an opportunity to potentially upgrade both our OL and DL in this draft, and we chose not to.
There were pletty of FA WRs who could have stepped in and helped us (probably more than DHB will in his first season - that's all we're getting, one season, out of Seymour).
Folks, what about re-building this team? Next year we'll be looking for another DL and we'll be out a 2011 first rd pick.
Here's what this acquisition hinges on:
- Seymour playing well in 2009
(I'm confident about this)
- the team's run defense improving
(I'm confident about this)
- the team being more competitive
(more confident than yesterday)
- Al signing Seymour for 3+ years in the offseason.
(I have never worried about Al opening up his checkbook. The question will be whether or not Seymour will have the desire to return)
Risk vs Reward, Cost vs Benefit, Downside vs. Upside ... all of us can analyze this death which I guess is part of the fun.
In my final analysis, I was so sick and tired of our run defense getting bludgeoned to death that I am more than happy to roll the proverbial dice.
To NYR & RT:
If we could go back in time and play the "what if" game, I would have been first in line to have taken BJ Raji instead of DHB. We didn't though.
I have no idea who we will take in the 2010 draft, who will be available, whether we will re-sign Seymour etc. None of us know if Desmond Bryant is the real deal or not. There are so many variables and unknowns involved that to start worrying about 2011 seems senseless considering are current rut. Yes, I all for rebuilding the team with the brick by brick mortar approach. Build your team through the draft. Concentrate on building your OL & DL. Develop your draft picks and retain the good ones. However, we all know that singular approach isn't going to happen with Al. I give Al credit for taking a guy like Seymour who is relatively young, very durable, high character, productive AND is a piece to improve our biggest Achilles heel.
This is a meat and potatoes acquisition not a chocolate dessert one like Hall, Walker, Moss.
RT... you were just pounding your fists on the ground just a month ago complaining that the Raiders didn't draft an tackle in over 4 years, and now we get one of the best DE/DT's in the NFL, you are STILL complaining?
Are you saying that if we had drafted a DT he would almost certainly been as good as Seymore.. or WTF are you saying??
Make up your mind... you wanted us to use our draft picks for d-line help, which is EXACTLY WHAT AL DID, and you are still complaining.
No wonder you found a friend in JC... who followed me here from Usenet because I can't block him here. You two are two peas in a pod!!
>>>
It just seems like we're always jumping around putting out fires instead of having a steady rebuilding plan.
>>>
The plan was to see if we could make the pieces we already have fit, but they didn't (in case you didn't notice we just dumped Sands.. who we had high hopes for.) So after seeing the players we had weren't going to work, what did you expect Al and Cable to do?
Nothing... which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT IN A FEW MONTHS when we are once again one of the worst run defenses in the NFL.
This move at least gives us a chance to be average against the run.. what would your solution have been?
The magic run stopping wand??
Oh wait... you wanted us to use a draft pick on someone last month.
We just did. N
You are still not happy... and you claim it is I that is "running with scissors?"
Good. Freekeeng. Grief.
Time to step away from the keyboard and find your fave relaxes.
People, it's a pass-rushing run stopper. We've been complaining about not getting a DT for how long now? And Al just got us one.
And now you complain about it.
/taking my own advice and going to the jail to do something constructive before I say something I'll regret.
---Jeff
Gary, the fact that I've been right about so many things for so long seems to have you worried.
Well, it has me worried, too.
Seymour was drafted in the first round by the Patriots and they got eight years out of him.
We will be lucky to get more than one year out of him for our first round draft pick.
It's a question of value, which I know is a sensitive subject with you.
No disrespect intended but all the folks who were constantly bellyaching about our porous run D can't have it both ways.
You should be excited, pleased, happy, thrilled, thankful (choose an adverb) ... that we picked up a stout, versatile, productive, distinguished DL like Seymour. Good luck finding a guy like Seymour in the 1st round of 2011. Seymour is a legit HOF candidate who should have 4-5 more solid years ahead of him. Whether we have him for 1 year or 4-5 is unknown.
We all agree that we are NOT 1 piece away from competing for a SB.
We all agree that there is an inherent risk and cost associated with this acquisition.
We all agree that the draft is a conerstone to rebuilding the team.
However, the questions I have for the Seymour "naysayers" (not because of his ability but the possible "1 and done" risk):
Did you want to draft in the top 7 in 2010 because we couldn't stop the run or did you want us to draft later in the 1st round because we were able to manage the bleeding on run D?
Did you want Al to sit on his hands and not take a swing at Seymour because of some prized 1st round selection 2 years from now?
Seriously, why are you worried about what happens in 2011? For all we know, there will be a lockout in 2011.
Before today, if any of you were to ask me my dream case acquisition, my answer would be, hands down, Seymour.
RT: This whole notion of "right" and "wrong" is a bit disturbing.
Using that method for qualifying decisions, I suppose you will say you were "right" if Seymour is 1 and done and "wrong" if Seymour is re-signed.
The problem that I see with this method is that there are countless variables that will factor into whether Seymour is "1 and done" or extended. Most of the variables are either unknown or a work in progress throughout the season.
- How much will Al be willing to pony up to Seymour at the conclusion of the 2009 season?
- How much does Seymour respect Al and the organization?
- How well did the Raiders play in 2009? Does he feel the Raiders are on the cusp of being a perennial playoff contender?
- How much did Seymour enjoy playing with his teammates, linemates, DL Coach, HC, for the fans?
- Is Seymour the type of guy who relishes challenges and finishing what he starts or does he want instant success?
>>>
We will be lucky to get more than one year out of him for our first round draft pick.
It's a question of value, which I know is a sensitive subject with you.
>>>
Ja... kinda like how that Parella fellow was done when we picked him up. (at 33)
Oh wait... we got three more years out of him and he just happened to lead us to a SB.
JFC RT... do you REALLY think a DE/DT career is over at 29 or something???
Maybe a workhorse RB or something.
Complaining about picking up a run stuffing 5 time pro-bowler because he is 29???... check yourself RT.
You are not the DD here...you are swigging a bottle of Jack and smoking crack in your analogy.
Hey, just found out about Seymour. I like it. I was a little worried they were going to get Wilfork. I'm sorry, but the complaining is very surprising to me. We've been hearing how Al hasn't addressed the run D in years, and this is a big, fat, addressing of the run D here. He's 29, there's no reason to believe he's going to be any different a player than he has been. I don't really mind trading a pick, even a first-round pick, for an almost sure thing instead of risking it in the draft.
The Patriots are getting what I'm sure they think is a top-10 pick, which is probably why they were willing to let go of a bonafide player like Seymour, but hey, that's why we win this year. Take, remember that old post "I Love Al Davis", where you talked about Al's willingness to invest in the best players he could find? That's this. I don't know what the real objection can be, other than bringing up done deals like the draft.
"We are extemely thin at CB. Routt has not played well this pre-season, and Bowie? Come on. This is a vintage Al Davis save face move."
This is another "Al Davis Derangement Syndrome" thing to me, and I'm tired of hearing it, honestly. I think we're seeing patterns where there aren't any. If Al Davis really thinks he can "save face" on the Moss trade by keeping Bowie around, then he's a moron, plain and simple. We traded Randy Moss for a fourth round pick, and he proceeded to set records all over the place. We lost that one. I don't think anybody but hardcore Raiders fans even know or care who we got for him.
So what's the real reason we kept Bowie? Well, like you said, we're thin at the CB position. Tell me, who do you think we should have kept instead?
CJ, I'll be wrong if Seymour steps in at the eleventh hour (which is today), gels with the team, plays his guts out instead of using the Raiders as an excuse to skate into his next big contract with another team, makes a significant impact this year, and then signs for a reasonable amount of money and contributes accordingly for years to come.
Have things gotten so bad in the Raiders' draft room that a first round draft pick is nothing but a nuisance and a crap shoot?
There's a reason why the Patriots (that would be the smartest team in the NFL, if you're being honest) don't take such a dim view of the draft. There's a reason why they would let a guy of Seymour's caliber go for our first round pick. And I can assure you that it's not because they view the draft as a crapshoot. That is the view of losers, not winners.
i'm not pointing any fingers but around here it seems as tho people are really stuck in the instantanious success of all aquisitions, rookie or vet. your only willing to wait for development if your looking 3 to five years down the road
and are talking about players not yet on our roster. if we're talking about this year your not satisfied with what we've aquired. sounds like there is no use arguing. you'll just move to the next step in the circle.
hey i got an idea, since you guys are never happy with the picks we make anyway, just write it off as something that you won't have to bitch about. oh yeah, nm, your takin care of that as we speak.
i'm going with the "this is the same Al i haved loved as my owner from the beginning" theory. our guys doin what he has got to do to put the best football team on the field he can, right now. thought this was the right move, burgess was the right move, moss was the right move, cutting our losses with d-hall was the right move. all for instant impact. some of said moves remove all doubt that we made mistakes. it happens. get over it. we can sit here and argue that we got screwed for moss, but to this team he was counterproductive and we all know it. 4th rounder for him. i wouldv'e given a 4th rounder for someone to take him. the fact that he decided to play to his potential should be shamefull for him and mearly proves we made the right call there.
it's not always about how much talent a guy has, it's the impact on your team. as a player and a teammate, as a student and a mentor. as a leader and a warrior. there are seveal measures for value and you have to take all of those intangibles into account to say whether it's worth it to pull the trigger for now at the cost of potential future.
frkyraider
Oh wait, we traded the 2011 pick, not the 2010? Then that definitely makes this the right move.
Nice try, Gary. I see you haven't abandoned your tactics. Seymour's age is just ONE factor that I cited in questioning this move.
On that point: It's not that he's too old now. My concern is that, in order to keep re-sign him, we will have to overpay him with a long-term contract at an age when he will not be getting better.
RT says,
Have things gotten so bad in the Raiders' draft room that a first round draft pick is nothing but a nuisance and a crap shoot?
no, not to them, they were satisfied with their draft choices, it's you that were not. so to you it's a crapshoot and a nuisance.
frkyraider
Well, if the draft isn't a crap shoot, several folks here didn't get the memo.
P.S. The Raiders are happy with their recent drafting? Well, that would sure explain some things!
recent? pretty vague....they seemed pretty happy after april draft. did they not?
frkyraider
>>>
On that point: It's not that he's too old now. My concern is that, in order to keep re-sign him, we will have to overpay him with a long-term contract at an age when he will not be getting better.
>>>>
Who sez he won't be better? Here's what a NE fan thinks:
...quote....
"Most of the reaction I've seen from Pats fans has been negative. He was
almost universally expected to have a huge season. Mike Reiss has been
saying it all offseason.
...end quote....
And why SHOULDNT we be paying top dollar to pro-bowlers still in their prime instead of draft picks that have not proven anything at ALL in the NFL?
Oh.. and here is another quote from the same guy as his upside:
...quote...
He's looked great all preseason. He'll have a big year. Very strong
but also quick in the pass rush. Handles double teams better than just
about anyone. Knocks down passes well.
...end quote...
"Handles double teams better than just about anyone" huh?
Ja... not like we need a player like THAT on our team!!! lol
Good grief.
Methinks the SD defensive coaching staff is busy right now rewriting their game plan for a week from Monday!
RT said,
"I'll be wrong if Seymour steps in at the eleventh hour (which is today), gels with the team, plays his guts out instead of using the Raiders as an excuse to skate into his next big contract with another team, makes a significant impact this year, and then signs for a reasonable amount of money and contributes accordingly for years to come."
Let's take these one by one:
#1 Eleventh hour;
No worries about Seymour being in top football shape having completed OTAs, training camp, and 4 exhibition games.
#2 Gel;
Seymour is an 8 year veteran defensive linenman. Gel? The guy has been playing DT & DE for 16 consecutive years. Gel as in knowing how to play his position? Gel as in knowing how to play with a teammate who has his own assignment? I hate to be a smart ass but in the case of a DLineman, I think it is pretty basic stuff that a guy like Seymour will be more than capable of handling after a few meetings with Marshall and 5-6 practices this week.
#3 Plays his guts out?
Is a 5 time pro bowler, 3 time SB champ who is the gold standard for professionalism both on the field and off the field going to pull a Moss? A bit of a stretch to think that we will get anything less than 100% of Seymour's efforts.
#4 Skate into his next big contract?
Excuse me? When a player has 1 year remaining on his contract, the last time I checked this is the year that he maximizes his effort and output to put himself in the best possible bargaining position ... whether that is with his existing team or another team. Skating would only diminish his value on the open market.
#5 Makes a significant impact;
If arguably the best DL in the entire league isn't able to make a difference on one of the worst run defending teams, who the F will?
#6 signs for a reasonable amount of money and contributes accordingly for years to come;
Reasonable by what standard? How about he signs to fair market value + 10% ... would you be ok with that? As far as contributing for years to come, that is the expectation and goal for acquiring him in the first place which is true of every acquisition.
I'd bet if you look at all the HOF d-linemen, they all played until at least 33. Howie Long retired at 33... did he suck at the end?
The only risk I see is that he has been kind of injury prone... but that is a risk I am willing to take to see a better d-line this year.
He has played on the right side his whole career.. and after watching Scott bounce off that backup RB for NO at the goal line, this is pretty much a no-brainer. That right side looked HORRIBLE when the starters were playing.
>>>
Excuse me? When a player has 1 year remaining on his contract, the last time I checked this is the year that he maximizes his effort and output to put himself in the best possible bargaining position
>>>>
Especially knowing he is already playing for a team that rewards pro-bowlers with record contracts.
This is a great pickup for the Raiders.. and I think even the NE fans know it.
Too bad about the Raider fans I guess [shrug]
Fair enough, CJ, if it works out as you say, I'll be wrong.
And I'll enjoy being wrong, I can assure you that.
Regarding eleventh hour, gelling, skating, etc. I'm not saying these things are going to be a problem. I'm just saying that they're areas of potential concern. Quite often when a big free agent comes here, he's always going to change the Raiders, but then it's the Raiders who end up changing him.
I think it's a bit naive to say that Seymour is an automatic slam dunk in Oakland, going from one of the better front sevens in the NFL to one of the worst, and from a perennial contender to a team that had to walk in slow motion through its first six practices.
You make fair points. But let's not pretend that the script is already written.
How soon before Seymour gels and fits into the starting lineup?
Should I expect him to make an impact in game one against LT?(who by the way has owned the Raiders)
I will reiterate that on first impression, trading for Seymour is a needed and good move. There is a gamble involved in the long term success of this acquisition, but there is a big upfront benifit.
Strictly speaking on Seymour, why would a legit HOF candidate(as CJ accurately puts it) want to sit on his ass for one year? More likely Seymour is not a Moss, or Hall. More Likely Seymour will perform to expectations.
Who dares wins. Just because Al has been getting burned lately, does that mean he shouldnt gamble?
Let me just get back to basics...imo good move Raiders
last comment posted by
SCAR
it boils down to this choice, in one hand you have a future draft pick who may or may not bust, one that could start for you for the next decade or bust in two years or less. in the other hand you have a 29 year old 3 time champion and 5 time probowler at a position of ultimate need for this seasons team to give you a better shot at makin the playoffs.
there is your choice, which hand do you want?
frkyraider
here is the announcement:
"and the 32nd pick in the 2011 nfl draft (a guy can dream can't he?) the OAKLAND RAIDERS select Richard Seymour.....uh..retroactive to the 2009 plus season."
frkyraider
>>>
How soon before Seymour gels and fits into the starting lineup?
>>>
I can bet good money he already is.
Did you see how scary bad the right side starters looked vs NO's backups, fer instance?
>>>
Should I expect him to make an impact in game one against LT?(who by the way has owned the Raiders)
>>>>
A d-player than can take double teams is something we haven't had since Parella. Sapp was supposed to be such a player, but he only was interested in sacks.
This is an immediate impact pick up, and quite possibly be the best FA pick up since Gannon.
When is the last time we have had a player in his prime with SB cred on defense? Rod Woodson and Romo methinks.
...check that... RWood and Romo were PAST their prime... but Seymour can anchor this defense.
Something we haven't had since Parella.
Disclaimer: Pats fan here.
It's interesting to read some of your concerns about Seymour. Honestly, I don't think you should have any -- except for his recent injury history.
Would it make me sound like too much of a homer to say he has no weaknesses on the field? Because he's probably the only player on the Pats in the last ten years not named Brady that I'd say that about. He's exceptional against the run, provides a pass rush even in the face of a double team, he knocks down passes better than most, and he's versatile enough to play every defensive line spot. He's been successful as a one-gap 4-3 DT, a two-gap 4-3 DT, a two-gap 4-3 DE, and a 3-4 DE. He also played a little bit of nose back in his first two seasons.
He's shown no evidence of losing a step. He actually had a phenomenal year last season and a strong preseason so far this year.
How long will it take for him to get up to speed? Hard to say. For what it's worth, he was an immediate contributor in his rookie year, so that might give an indication about his ability to pick up a new system.
I think Belichick made the trade for two reasons: 1) He's on the last year of his contract and so is Wilfork -- can't pay them both; and 2) The Pats will show more of a 4-3 look this year, and they already have SEVEN defensive tackles on the roster, none of which were cuttable. It made sense to get some value for one, although I thought it would be Jarvis Green, not Seymour.
Followed you Gary? Get over yourself for shit's sake.
yeah he'll play his butt off 'cause it's a contract year... but maybe seymour ends up back where he came from - the gaytriots. they pay him a homer rate because he knows he's with a winner. al gets screwed for losing a top pick! hope our record is one that'll push that pick to the bottom of the pile!
or maybe we'll franchise tag him twice in a row and pay him top dollar for a guy of his position and stature. have him for three years at a position of need. then what is the verdict?
frkyraider
Garcia didn't show much, but what little he showed was 100 times better than what "j-rustus" showed! You faida fanatics will be sorry come Mon. nite, when "j-rustus" is getting his big lumox as slapped to the ground by Mr. Merriman, and "j-rustus" is running for his life! At least Garcia can move!!!!! Start the season 1-15 is in the books, faidas LOSE BIG!!!!! Money in my pocket, thank you big al (MR.) davis for being the genius you ARE!!!!! Just choke baby. faida "nation" forever. "panty smeller" for HC in 2010...
Nobody is saying Seymour was a bad acquisition. Of course we’re all thrilled to have him. It’s just that the price seems excessive, particularly since we’re only assured of one season.... and one season isn’t going to be enough to get us to the promise land (Al Davis said so himself).
It’s the cost alone that some of us seem to disagree. That’s fine.
It was suggested that maybe we won’t even have football in 2011 (lockout), so why worry about a 2011 1st draft pick. Ok. Is that how the Raiders should handle their long-range planning (re-building)?
Alternately, if we’re swinging for the fences right now, then let’s do this right. Let’s go out and get a run-stuffing MLB. Let’s dump Watkins and sign a proven utility WR. Hell, let’s re-sign Jeff Garcia and be prepared to install him as the starting QB if Russell stumbles (Garcia may not be the mentor the Raiders hoped, and he may have become complacent during his injury and late pre-season, but don’t discount his ability to win football games).
I would stand behind these moves as being complementary to the Seymour pick-up and feel much better about our short-term potential... if that’s what we’re trying to accomplish (again).
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Gary:
Seymour has been very durable throughout his career. Seymour last injury of significance was in 2007 which he bounced back from in 2008 with an above average year. Every player in the NFL is 1 play away from a major injury. The questions to ask are (1) is he coming off an injury? No. Is he at 100% health right now? Yes. Did he play well last year? Yes.
RT:
You are exactly right. The script isn't written and it far from a "slam dunk". As I mentioned 2 or 3 times, there are countless variables that will determine how things turn out. I have no clue how it will turn out but I'm excited about enjoying the ride and the possibilities. I honestly believe that Seymour could be a major contributor to improving our #1 weakness (run D) and an impactful signing. If I'm "wrong" about my hopes and opinions, so be it. I can live with that but it is hard to live without hope of a better tomorrow.
BTW, Frkraider brought up a very interesting point ... what is to stop us from tagging Seymour once or twice if necessary?
Mark Z aka Pats fan:
Thanks for the insight. It confirms what I believed about Seymour. If you were to ask me the difference between Seymour and Haynesworth, I would tell you that Seymour is more versatile and productive on a regular basis. If you were to ask me who is the best Dlineman in the entire NFL, I would say Seymour. Welcome to Raiderworld where the acquisition of the best NFL DLineman is received with negativity, doubt, and doom.
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What did we hear all offseason? We had the talent up front. It was just a matter of defending gaps and being disciplined.
That was the whole stated mantra behind the D-line inaction in terms of the draft and trading and free agency...Look it up. It was stated many times.
Myself and others here maintained that this mentality was misguided.
Once again, we were proven right.
Yet it took the team the whole preseason to figure it out.
So here we are, in panic mode, making a big move at the eleventh hour.
Hopefully, we got over on the Patriots and this will work out beautifully.
But to act like there's no basis for skepticism is ridiculous.
Funny how many of the same people telling me how desperately we need Seymour are the same people who were telling me two months ago not to freak out about our D-line situation.
Glad you're all finally seeing the light.
we believed in the coaching staff that they thought they could could get it cleaned up with what they had. this preseaon under new staff has proven that is not the case. so they and we were wrong, and all you guys were right. feel better? a nice pat on the back for you. now that Al has taken heed of your insitefull words, your not happy it did'nt happen sooner? sheesh, no wonder they keep a cone of silence. i wouldn't tell us anything either. damned if you do, damned if you don't, damned if you do but not soon enuff now. to what depths does this negativity go?
frkyraider
another thought about the franchising of seymore. how bout we do loose him afer a year. whats the compensation for loosing a 5 time probowler these days? don't know just asking. isn't there compensatory pick for loosing a really good FA.
frkyraider
RT:
I have been genuinely and consistently concerned about our Dline for quite some time. I was willing and able to consider ALL options to upgrade our DLine.
The reason we acquired Seymour at the "11th hour" is because that is when he became available.
To be fair, it wasn't until as early as the Niner game or as late as the NO game that it became crystal clear evident that DC Marshall's instruction alone was not going to be enough to solve the run stopping woes.
Was it 'panic mode' or a bold, decisive move to acquire Seymour? I guess this is a half empty vs. half full proposition in how you answer the question.
I total understand your take about the organization being pro-active, drafting sensibly, rebuilding in the most prudent fashion etc. Was this trade perfect, on time, without risks and costs? Of course not. You simply don't acquire a player of Seymour's caliber with no strings attached.
One thing that I think you are seriously overlooking erroneously is the importance of the players reaction to this trade. It is remarkable how this signing has boosted the team's morale, confidence, and overall outlook. Read the quotes from Kelly, Ellis, Morrison, etc. Whether it is a sense of false hope or not, you can never discount the feelings of players who truly believe this is a special acquisition. Kelly is frothing at the mouth to learn from Seymour. Do these feelings of the players mean anything? You bet your bottom dollar it does. It is simply amazing how a team can unify and gain confidence when an event such as this galvinizes them.
MZ, thanks for the input. Class all the way.
---Jeff
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here is the difference between the raiders and the pats.
the pats are confident they can replace richard seymour with another player that can blend into their defensive scheme, and have success.
the raiders aquired richard seymour to stop the run.
can we see the difference here ?
one team has defensive scheme which functions by all 11 defenders operating as a cohesive unit.
the raiders are still operating under the old "great player" idea.
where you have enough players, playing great, and you can win.
but football, imo, has changed to where the scheme is what makes the player great today. not merely the individual performing at a high level again, and again.
this is where, i believe, the raiders are missing the boat, with all these moves.
it's why they can pick up a seemingly "great" player like a randy moss, only to watch him fail, in raiderland.
I yield to the consensus on the Seymour trade (value). I ‘d be lying if I said I wasn’t excited to have him. I just hope we’re not all crying in 2011 about not having a valuable 1st rd pick. It shouldn't take any team eight years to rebuild (or at least climb out of the basement), right?
CJ said - "It is remarkable how this signing has boosted the team's morale, confidence, and overall outlook."
No question what we need is to boost morale, and ultimately elevate the level of play across the line. Losing Turd-L Sands and adding Richard Seymour is like winning the lottery from a pure football standpoint.
Good post Raider00. That's a difficult message for some to accept.
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Bama7
RT, I like the seymour pick-up but you are absolutely correct. The whole thing smacks again of incompetence. Our coaching staff and Al were "sure" since last season we had the pieces in place on our D, but just needed a different coach and wrok on technique. Now, at the 11th hour, we admit we were wrong in a big way and go out and do the seymour trade. Sort of like thinking your fine at QB for 9 months and then going out before your first real game and trading for a starter.
Raider 00 said "the pats are confident they can replace richard seymour with another player that can blend into their defensive scheme, and have success.
the raiders aquired richard seymour to stop the run."
Exactly... they are run competently.
We're just figuring out now that we are in trouble at the one thing we haven't been able to do for what seems an eternity... stop the run. Hello??
Didn't read all posts, they pile up so quick. but just a couple of points:
On Seymour, if we tag him, and someone signes him, we get picks. If we lose him in FA without tagging him, don't we atleast get compensatory picks?
Garcia; Would have been nice to have him on the roster, but at this point we need the roster spot more than the best backup QB in the league.
How about Merrian putting the 'Cable' on Tia-Tequilla!!
-moshbucket
For anyone wondering where I'm coming from, just read Raider00's and Bama7's comments above. They said it better than I could.
So yes, I am excited about Seymour, but not the circumstances under which he was acquired, and I have legitimate concerns about his overall impact relative to his cost.
I hope I'm wrong. I'm sure that would be a nice change for the folks who are piling on me for my take today.
;)
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PantyRaider - I know you're just being funny, but when will you (and others) stop this misconception of Raider fans being “Doomers” just because they cite the facts as a reasonable barometer to gauge the recent successes and failures of current Raider management?
Aren’t we all evaluated periodically in our work? If you fail at your job year after year, does someone just offer you a pat on the back and say maybe next year you’ll figure out what everyone else in your industry has been doing better than you for the last six years? Because that’s what some fans do for the Raiders.
Facts are facts. Sorry, but there’s no escaping them. I promise to root for the Raiders and cheer for them when they’re right.... but I draw the line somewhere short of blind faith.
>>>
Bama7
RT, I like the seymour pick-up but you are absolutely correct. The whole thing smacks again of incompetence.
>>>
WTF? You obviously missed Trevor Scott getting bounced like a ping pong ball at the goal line by a backup RB against NO then.
My gawd... if there is anything at all one could bring out of the practice games viewed, its how scary bad the right side of our defense looked.
Incompetence would be thinking this can be corrected by the magic run stopping wand you think Cable should possess.
We gave up what will prolly be a low first round draft pick for someone 50 pounds heavier than the starter he is replacing with SB ring cred... unbelievable anyone would think this is a bad thing.
Oh wait... we are at the Raidertake.
WE ARE ALL DOOMED!!!! DOOOMED!!! SIX MORE YEARS OF LOSING BECAUSE WE LOST SIX YEARS IN A ROW BEFORE THIS!!!
>>>
PantyRaider - I know you're just being funny, but when will you (and others) stop this misconception of Raider fans being “Doomers” just because they cite the facts as a reasonable barometer to gauge the recent successes and failures of current Raider management?
>>>>
The facts are we just fixed one of the biggest faults of the team and you are presenting it as a BAD THING.
Thats the facts bubs.
According to Jmac there is some unsourced rumors that Seymour will not show... which would immediately put this deal in much worse of a light... however, unless there are soothsayers here... this has yet to happen.
Hard to believe those rumors about Seymour sitting out.
Meanwhile, I understand that it's difficult for some of you to deal with the value analysis, as its not as fun as emotional finger pointing and namecalling. I get it.
Does Seymour want to play for the Raiders? Is he happy about this? Did we iron things out with him in advance of pulling the trigger? How much of an impact in the near term can he have with such a weak supporting cast?
He will be 30 next month, and he has some injury history--what is his asking price to stay with us for the long run, and is it reasonable in terms of investment we might be paying him three or four years from now?
If we are rebuilding and can't reasonably expect to go too far this year (per Mr. Davis), could 2010 be the true transition year, and thus will the first pick in the 2011 draft be sorely missed as we are on the verge of becoming a powerhouse?
These are some of the legitimate value analysis questions and concerns that I have before I start jumping with joy. Sorry if you can't handle that.
As far as Gary saying: "Incompetence would be thinking this can be corrected by the magic run stopping wand you think Cable should possess."
He perfectly describes the organizational mindset over the past six months up through yesterday. Well done.
This just clouds the process even more. Maybe it’s this mysterious run of really bad luck over the last six years that has Seymour hesitant to join his new bank, err, I mean football team.
RT
Truly a study in Mankind on here... Fun to watch. They are so sick of your negativity, but they can't stop posting. HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION or want to take a different view. If you don't agree with them, they brand as a -, NEGATIVE, BAD INFLUENCE, NOT A REAL FAN.
It could be a good trade if it comes to fruition and he comes with a winners attitude. Doesn't sound good at the moment.
We waste high round draft picks like paper towel, Seymour is a known quantity, I'll take that tradeoff. BUT, knowing he has heard horror stories from Moss and Walter and others around the league....coming from a winner to the worst loser, it doesn't sound good. BUT, we will get that pick back if he doesn't come. So, all in all I give Al Davis a thumbs up.
JONES
Jones, the thing is, I don't see it as negativity. I'm just being honest.
I take each development as it comes. If I like it, I say so. If I don't, I say so. I take the takes as they come.
And the fact is that my honest takes have been proven correct over and over again by the Raiders themselves. That's not my fault. That's the team's fault.
If my takes on every development were consistently positive while the team was crashing and burning year after year, my credibility would be in the toilet, would it not? What would you say about a Lions blogger who never said a bad word about the team?
The record shows that I have not missed the mark nearly as much as my critics. You'd think I might get some credit for that.
But instead, they just keep wailing away, knowing that at some point, some day, they'll catch me getting something really wrong (hey, it's bound to happen, and it's long overdue).
Then they will want me to wear a hair shirt for the rest of my life while ignoring their own closets full of them.
Funny thing is (much to the chagrin of those who think I am an Al Davis hater), I mostly blame the coaching staff for convincing Mr. Davis that the right personnel were in place months ago, when in fact that couldn't have been further from the truth.
Davis is simply trying to improve his football team, albeit, at a very steep price. Can’t blame him for wanting to field a winner.
RT
You got it....it's the same thing for myself.
But it is good to see that you are willing to tell the truth, if no one would speak up, it will never change (Alameda). It's so freakin unbelievable that IT HASN'T CHANGED and there are still people out there defending Al Mighty.
But, some are slow to realize, either that or it's brainwashed minds can't compute truth. It is a study though.
It is funny that we are seeing this throughout the world at this time in history. People are waking up to the fact that we are lied to daily from press and Govern/ corp. Some can't get past the " why would they lie to us"...couldn't see the truth if it slapped them in the face. You have to figure mindconditioning is getting broken down, just some are slower to get it broken. It is happening, truth will always rise above the mindconditioning......give them time..
JONES
NY
How do you take that step to the coaches convincing AD of what they need? Isn't this the AD who built his teams in his way? Since when do the coaches convince AD of ANYTHING? You are enabling, it has nothing to do with the coaches telling AD that all was good on the line and then AD waking up one day saying " damn it, that D line needs some sprucing up".
JONES
OK, you have to agree that you can put together a great team and not do squat, and sometimes you can have an OK/good (not dominate/incredible) team and make it to the SB.
But each year is a new year, and you have to agree that the changes since last season indicate more hope than any of the past few.
Not trying to say the slates clean each year, obviously we're carrying over some baggage we are trying to clean up for awhile now.
The RE was the biggest liability in our run D these last few preseason games (atleast that's what I saw). And Al just made an immediate upgrade to that. Not just a few points, but like from a 67 to a 96 upgrade (using Madden terminology here).
Wether you think he's worth the pick in 2011 (there might not even be football in 2011) or not, it IS a huge upgrade making the weakest spot on the line the strongest spot on the line, which effectually upgrades every spot on the line.
If he has a great year, and he ends up going somewhere else, we get picks for him anyway. The cost might be an issue, but no matter WHAT he costs this year, atleast Al got a proven commodity instead of dumping tons on a crap shoot (i.e., D-hall, and Javon Walker).
If you guys want to start arguing between minty fresh and gloom and doom, go back to the previous take and keep piling on there.
Other than that, state what you have to say and have a nice cup of shut the phuk up. It's like everyone feels they have to have the last word.
COMEON! We signed one of the best DE's in football (arguably), Chaz is healing up fine, and .... wait for it... Merriman tried to choke out .... TIA TEQUILA! Maybe she's a Raiders fan :-).
-moshbucket.
last word.
-moshbucket
Jones - I'm enabling? That's a reach.
Clearly, there was wild and unfounded speculation on someone's part that the Raiders had the requisite talent to improve their run D through better coaching alone; yet games 2-4 of the pre-season made it shockingly clear we did not. Hence, the haste to bring in help before the season.
Cable: Real quickly about the Richard Seymour issue. We have attempted to make a deal. There are some issues still between him and the Patriots that are being worked out. Hoping that will be resolved as quickly as possible. We know that the player wants to be here, but we have no control really over those issues. That’s really all I’m going to talk about it for now.
Q: Can you tell us how you know he wants to be here? Have you spoken with him?
Cable: I have talked to him.
Q: So he said he wants to be here?
Cable: Yes.
Well, that's a good sign, if they've talked and he wants to be here.
Hey Take,
As many times as you've been thrown under the bus for takes people don't like, maybe your nickname should be "Speedbump." Enjoy the rest of your Labor Day.
How about Whipping Post?
Thanks, you too!
thanks to everyone for the kind words about my post.
it's just a problem i see in regard to how the raiders build there teams.
they are constantly looking for a player here and there to change the team, instead of hiring a strong d/coordinator, and finding players to fit his scheme.
it just ends up looking like a mess.
throw randy moss out on the field without a clue.
throw warren sapp in there without a plan.
and here comes richard seymour, and, we'll see what happens.
look at it this way. we all can name the great players from the famous "steel curtain" defense.
but how many can name all the players from the steelers current defense ?
but we all know who their DC is, right ?
both are SB champs, but in different era's in which different thinking is needed.
the steelers have moved on from the 1970's.
the raiders ? we're still waiting.
people respect your opinion RT, thats why we have all come back to this site. whippin post? hardly. you make valid points and are on the money in a high percentage of your posts. but since the "big haitus" you have been highly critical and have jumped to the negative side of most issues. we get it. your fed up. me too. but you seem to believe that i (we positve thinkers) are blind by our bias, as we think you are blinded by yours.
i'll tell ya this, i am a football coach that has had experience with a loosing team and trying to change the culture and turn it around. or puttin a team together and thinking you have the right parts in the right place and then seeing you were wrong. there is always work to be done, people to move around and aquire. things that need shoring up. that isn't the fault of the coach or the owner, thats football. this is what goes on in this sport. i would argue some of these things in more detail but i have seen BR do it and get railed for "making excuses". to me that is negative bias blindness. if you can't come to grips with bad things happen to football teams all the time and they are forced to regroup and deal with adversity then i can't shed any decent light on it for you, you just refuse to see it.
we are where we are, how we got here is irrelevent at this point, unless you guys would like to keep beating this dead Al...uh...i mean horse. each season is a new year, i personally would like to win this year. thats right the whole shooting match. SUPERBOWL CHAMPIONS. i will take what has been givin and run with it. Al has attempted to give us the horses to do it. yeah they didn't all come at the same time, it came together slowly, but i believe anyone that makes the playoffs can win the championship. and i think we got a shot at the playoffs if we can stop, ok no wait....slow down the freakin run a bit. Richard Seymore would help us do that now. i'll take it and run with it. it's a mans game. sometimes ya win, sometimes you loose.
my biggest pet peeve is this:
"I promise to root for the Raiders and cheer for them when they’re right.... " -nyraider
now thats a tough gig, one mistake he's off the bandwagon. try putting yourself in their shoes some time. it aint so easy to be perfect in this game man!!
frkyraider
Goodness gracious, what is all this self-righteous crap doing on this page? Guys, you're better than this. I can't believe you're buying into Jones' "I'm so oppressed! Nobody wants to listen to the TRUTH!" garbage. We're disagreeing with your opinion, we're not persecuting you. Get over yourselves.
On the Seymour story:
There are a few verifiable facts we have right now:
1. Seymour hasn't shown up.
2. Cable said point-blank, "yes, he said he wanted to be here".
3. Cable said there were "issues" holding Seymour up, which the Pats said they didn't know anything about.
I'd say at this point it could be that they're trying to get a new deal on the table, that would most likely be the scenario. I don't see Al wanting to roll with the existing deal, it's not his style. Other than that, I don't know of any "issues", that would hold him up, other than not wanting to show up. I'm not saying this is the case, just that I don't know what other scenarios there would be. But Cable didn't leave any room for interpretation of his statements. So, either he is lying, or Richard Seymour indeed told him he wanted to be there.
Maybe there's some sort of argument going between him and the Pats regarding the rest of his contract, and the spokesperson didn't know about it, or was trying to keep it quiet. Hard to say.
NY
It's basically the same line for the last how many yrs?.... That's what I thought.
JONES
Mosh
Is it a new year? It looks so familiar....
WR's ???? Qb ????? RB = good OL = below avg.
DB's = weak at S. Lb's avg - below Avg. Dline was below avg before Seymour. Still unclear what is happening with him.
So where is the change?
I thought this was America? Free to write what they want without someone jumping in and telling you to STFU? You can write STFU all you want, doesn't mean it will happen.
That shit runs deep on here and on many other Raider boards. That's the state of the Raider nation, one side believes in it, otherside has seen enough. How can you stop that?
Think of it as a culture change. Until then, it will be the same clown car driving around Alameda. Think of a new stadium..AD hires a proven football man to take over operations...Team has a more pro feel to it..drafting is better, FA signings are good...players are ACCOUNTABLE...a new coach that runs a hard ship, not a cruiseliner....this to me would be a great start.
JONES
BP says
"I can't believe you're buying into Jones' "I'm so oppressed! Nobody wants to listen to the TRUTH!" garbage. We're disagreeing with your opinion, we're not persecuting you. Get over yourselves."
Is there pics of ourselves being nailed to a cross?
This is the shit that wrecks the site.
A few sentences and then on comes you or panty or BR or whatever to throw in your discreditation of the poster. Using methods of a low life to do it. You just can't help yourself I know, but try and figure it out so it can fade away, give it a shot BP.
JONES
Well, heck, I guess it's as good a reason as any. Unattributed, from a site I've never seen before, so take it with a grain of salt. Or maybe a bag of said salt.
---Jeff
http://www.profootballcentral.com/2009/09/07/seymour-expected-to-arrive-in-oakland-on-tuesday/
Seymour Expected To Arrive In Oakland On Tuesday
September 7th, 2009 · No Comments
Newly acquired defensive end Richard Seymour is expected to report to the Oakland Raiders and take his physical on Tuesday, according to several sources. Seymour, did not report today, due to wanting to spend the Labor Day holiday with his family before joining his new team.
As far as Seymour...that is a " believe it when I see it" deals.
JONES
GOOD NEWS AR.
JONES
Thank you, frkyraider.
Let me say that my takes have nothing to do with my hiatus, at least not to my knowledge.
Let's briefly run down the major developments of the offseason:
HEAD COACH HIRING
Personally, I felt that the Raiders had no business not conducting a thorough search involving of top-flight candidates. If Cable still came out on top, fine. But I don't think that due diligence was served. Sorry.
FREE AGENCY / EARLY TRADING
I liked it. Instead of rewarding clowns like Walker and Hall, we rewarded our own top performers, Nnamdi and Shane. Bravo. If I'd known we'd ignore the trenches in the draft, however, I might have wanted to see a little more action.
DRAFT
I found it silly. Again, sorry. Just my honest opinion.
TRAINING CAMP / PRESEASON
An okay camp followed by defensive train wreck in the preseason. It was hard to watch, right? Enough said.
So there you have it. I took things as they came, gave you my honest opinion with each development, and in the end, the positive/negative chips fell where they did. Nothing was preconceived. I used my eyeballs and my brain and gave you my takes in real time to the best of my abilities.
So now we have the Seymour trade, and because I dare to actually invoke value analysis instead of caveman math (seymour = good / who cares what it cost or how it fits into our future), I'm getting the same old shout downs and namecalling.
It's predictable, and frankly, tiresome.
Bama -
Al Davis and Tom Cable were wrong about the D and picked up arguably the best possible player to improve it. And your point is?
I'm surprised by the reaction of some you guys. The complaints seem petty. It is a real buzz kill.
Raider 00 -
The Raider's scheme has been typically a 4-3, M2M that relies heavily on the base 4 being able to anchor against/contain the run and put pressure on the QB.
Recently, our base 4 has been unable to do either. What has been added to our base 4? A pass rusher who is an improvement over Burgess against the run (Ellis) plus a pass rusher/run stopper supreme (Seymour) who is better than anyone we've had since Howie Long.
Ok, what have we got now (assuming Seymour's trade is finalized) ...
Ellis, Warren, Kelly, Seymour
This is the best starting group of DLineman we've had since 2002.
I would argue that our base 4 is the absolute key to our team defense successfully running the scheme.
Without an above average DL unit, this D is dead in the water.
Inadequate pass rush pressure leads to M2M corners being asked to cover too long.
Inability to get into the backfield, disrupt the blocking scheme, tie up multiple blockers, etc. leads to the LBs making tackles 4,5 yards past the LOS.
frkyraider -
My biggest pet peeve is when someone takes something I’ve typed out of context.
“...now thats a tough gig, one mistake he's off the bandwagon.”
One mistake? Bandwagon? LOL. You’re joking, right? After six years in the abyss?
I hope Seymour plays for the Raiders and he is able to elevate the game of other players. Then perhaps we will see some light at the end of this tunnel, and we maybe we will have altered the pattern of inequities when dealing with the Patriots.
CJ
JMac wrote the buzz kill. He said Seymour was balking and maybe not coming. But, it seems that he is coming but now his attitude is in question. Remember Moss, Hall? We have been burned by players not wanting to be in Oakland, it's understandable if some are cautious...
Tempered enthusiasm is what is called for.
RT:
I would love to hear more about your 'value analysis'.
I have a completely different, more instinctive view on the value of the Seymour acquisition.
This view doesn't have any cold hard facts and the script is definitey unwritten but here it goes ...
Some of the tangible and intangible things that Seymour brings to the table;
(1) Worst RDE to elite RDE
Whether it was T.Scott being on the field when he shouldn't or Richardson who is more suited as a backup or a rookie Shannessey just getting his feet wet, our RDE was going to be a disaster. Opponents would zero in on our right side of the line and bury us.
(2) Versatility
We went from a DL with some versatility to a team with a ton of options on how the DL is used and rotated.
Here are just a few combinations that can be utilized to fit the circumstances;
Ellis-Warren-Kelly-Seymour
Ellis-Warren-Seymour-Kelly
Ellis-Bryant-Kelly-Seymour
Ellis-Bryant-Kelly-Scott (passing downs only for Scott)
(3) The much needed domino effect.
The biggest beneficiary of the acquisition will be Seymour's linemates and Ricky Brown at SLB. Teams will no longer be able to double Ellis or Kelly. Ricky Brown will have an easier time getting to the ball carrier.
(4) Leadership
Going into MNF are leaders on D were Nnamdi, Morrison, and Ellis. Adding a 5x Pro Bowl, 3x SB player who is known to be a hard worker and quiet leader can only help.
(5) Boost in Morale and Confidence
The players made remarks on Sunday night to the effect that they EXPECT to be a MUCH better defensive team with the addition of Seymour. Whether that comes to fruition or not is not the point. The point is that there is a sense of confidence, inspiration and even swagger when you add a guy of Seymour's caliber to the team.
(6) Committment
Whether you think this is a prudent acquisition or not, the players and coaching staff knows what this means. They know that Davis is committed to winning in 2009. As fans, we sometimes concern ourselves with looking at a sensible, long term rebuilding plan. Players don't give a shit. To them it is all about today, this season.
(7) Ability to Compete in 2009
IMO, the Raiders were going to be playing the 2009 season with one arm tied behind their back UNLESS the run D was improved substantially.
Many of our opponents would be gouging us with the run which sets up their pass. Playing from behind would take away our strength (our rush offense). Losing the TOP battle because we can't stop the run in turn gets our D gassed by the 4th quarter. It is all a very slippery slope when you have the 31st ranked run defense. It is the equivalent of a Chinese water torture and your enemy slowly, methodically beats you to death.
(8) No More Excuses
DL Coach Board, DC Marshall, HC Cable had better find a way to get the biggest possible positive impact from Seymour's abilities.
no name calling or shouting down from this guy.
i think i just liked it better when you were on our side RT. we lost a hellova voice for calling the haters to the carpet. i for one miss that guy.
nyraider-
out of context? it was copy and pasted right from your post. did you want me to add the "but I draw the line somewhere short of blind faith." i would have but thought it was just a shot at the rest of us that get excited when our team does something we deem positive, and didn't add anything more to the idea of the QUOTE itself besides the backhanded slap.
frkyraider
Jones: I have no problem with anyone who has 'tempered enthusiasm' or caution. We will all know more tomorrow.
"Is there pics of ourselves being nailed to a cross?"
No, I will admit you stopped just short of that.
"This is the shit that wrecks the site.
A few sentences and then on comes you or panty or BR or whatever to throw in your discreditation of the poster. Using methods of a low life to do it."
Roger. I should have thought of that before I posted:
"But, some are slow to realize, either that or it's brainwashed minds can't compute truth."
Oh, wait... See, I didn't call anybody self-righteous, I didn't call anybody brainwashed or slow. I may have used language you objected to, but I attacked the words, not the person. It's a distinction you may need to discover for yourself. I have strong objections to your tone, and I thought it was unfortunate that it seems to have effected other folks on here.
"You just can't help yourself I know, but try and figure it out so it can fade away, give it a shot BP."
No, I can definitely help myself, which is why I pretty much ignore you. Which is sad, because you're not always completely off base. It's just that your tone makes you a little hard to take seriously.
"So now we have the Seymour trade, and because I dare to actually invoke value analysis instead of caveman math (seymour = good / who cares what it cost or how it fits into our future), I'm getting the same old shout downs and namecalling."
See, this is what I was talking about. Who called you a name? Who shouted you down? Nobody is doing these things you say they are, unless you're talking about our friendly "anno" guests, in which case I think they're calling us all names.
I did call your post (as well as a few others, it was a blanket statement) where you talked about how consistently right you've been, and how nobody will recognize your incredible rightness self-righteous crap, because that's what it read like to me. It seemed a bit "Jonesian".
So now that that's out of the way, Jerry Mac has an article where he quotes Rodney Harrison saying Seymour's "not thrilled", and then re-posts Cable's comments as though they're contradicted. Who expected Seymour to be thrilled by this? He went from a Super Bowl contender to a 5-11 team without a moment's notice, not to mention that he has to relocate his family to the other side of the country.
What we may need is for Al to get on a plane and handle this one personally. I don't know what he says to players, but he seems to have a real way of getting guys excited to be Raiders. Heck, all it took to get Javon Walker to change his mind over something as life-altering as retirement was a plane trip from ol' Al.
A player and former teammate's perspective from PTF:
"Put yourself in his position," (Rodney) Harrison added. "He's going from a first-class organization to one of the worst in the NFL. You have the head coach fighting the assistant coaches, the owner involved in the day-to-day operations, guys who don't believe in the quarterback. . . . Tom Brady to JaMarcus Russell? Come on. Is that something to look forward to? Why would he be excited?"
Harrison said he spoke with Seymour.
Ouch! Hope this isn't another Hall/Moss type deal.
Here's the icing for that cake:
"Asked if Seymour would report to the Raiders, Harrison said, "I don't know that. Only Richard knows that. But I wouldn't go to Oakland. There's no way in the world I would go to Oakland. The only way I would report is if they promised they wouldn't franchise me after this year."
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I agree with Calico on the Seymore signing. Barring injury, we're seem to be solid. Also, both Seymore and Kelly are versitile enough to play both inside and outside - a Raider tradition.
The hold up seems very odd. Boston papers are suggesting that there is a financial issue between the Pats and Seymore, and I doubt very seriously that the Boston papers are carrying water for Al Davis.
I suspect that the trade caught Seymore very much by surprise and he's concerned about what to do with his family at a time when school is just starting for his kids, he's just getting settled down for the season, and suddenly he has to move everything 3,000 miles away. It could also be that the Pats had previously agreed to extend his contract.
But whatever the issue, my bet is that he'll be here and ready to play, even if he misses the Chargers game.
According to a report in ProFootballCentral.com, Seymore merely wanted to spend Labor Day weekend with his family before moving out to the west coast. While it is said that he wants a long term contract and doesn't want to be "franchised." If Seymore proves himself here, I think that Davis will grant those wishes.
This is a very grounded perspective on the Seymour deal.
http://raiderbeat.com/?p=4214
One excellent point is that a rookie salary cap (by 2011) would almost certainly increase the value of the pick we just sent NE.
Careful, NY, "value" is a bad word around here.
I am persuaded somewhat by Calico Jack (because he didn't just plug his ears when the discussion turned to value), but that article you just referenced illustrates my own legitimate concerns with this deal.
I guess that the author will just need to be told to STFU and to stop the DOOM, and to stop referencing the past six years even though he said nothing about them, blah, blah, blah.
Take, my problem with the article is that it trades on an assumption that Davis really has no clue what will happen in 2011. IMO, that horse won't even leave the barn.
It also makes the assumption that Seymore would shore up the run defense, but have no impact on a playoff run because it's ridiculous to believe the Raiders have a shot at the playoffs. Well, a primary reason we might suspect that the Raiders will have no shot at the playoffs is because of their poor run defense.
Further, I read an article discussing the Seymore trade which asserted that Davis gave up the 2011 instead of the 2010 pick because there is currently infinitely more value in the 2010 pick. If 2010 is an uncapped year, teams will be spending their big money on what is a proven commodity, and not a gamble. 2010, inside the NFL, is considered to be a very good vintage for draft picks, but it is expected that across the board, teams will offer less money than in the past. And ideally, by 2011, we'd be drafting in the middle to the late portion of the 1st round, and not the top 10. And you can always leave it to Al to find a way to trade back into the 1st round.
With a serviceable defensive unit, a strong running game of our own, and an improved passing game, we have a decent shot at the playoffs in a weak division. 10-6, possibly even 9-7 will get us there. If we make the playoffs, we get less resistance from veterans on the outside who might consider making the Raiders their home. And that will improve us over succeeding years.
I see nothing wrong with the value of the Seymore trade, provided he come shows up.
Fair points. Nice to be having level-headed discussion on this.
There's another value factor that has yet to be determined, and that is whatever deal is being, or will be, worked out.
The Patriots get the the draft pick.
But what does Seymour himself get?
It bothers me that he seems to have a lot of leverage in this negotiation.
We are desperate for him, and the season starts in five days, and he knows it. Advantage Seymour.
Does he get a no-franchise tag clause? Or some long term deal with a huge front end that pro-rates poorly over time?
This is why I wasn't ready to call this a slam dunk the moment it a happened. I think a lot of things are hanging in the balance right now.
I guess at this point, I'm most concerned about the public statements by Seymour's friend and former teammate, Rodney Harrison, that Seymour may not want to be a Raider... and shouldn't even report to the Raiders.
Harrison said he spoke with Seymour, so his statement(s) seems credible.
Meanwhile, no Seymour sightings and no update on his status as a Raider.
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PantyRaider, what you are advocating is the end of independent thinking.
I don't care what the media are saying. That's not my obsession.
The Seymour news came over the wire, I looked at the fundamentals of the situation, and gave you my take. Raider Take, baby.
My take was that I didn't think it was a slam dunk, I wasn't ready to jump for joy just yet, and the timing and cost seemed questionable to me.
If some article comes along that offers food for thought or supports my take, why shouldn't I make note of it? It adds to the discussion/debate.
Did I need an inside scoop to tell you that our D-Line was suffering from gross talent neglect and that thinking all it needed was better coaching was silly?
No, I didn't.
Sometimes the outside scoop is better than the inside one, apparently.
Take, I have no objection to your reasoning. I just don't see it as a significant problem, and to me it seems to fall in line with the off season plan.
Part of that plan was to give the priority to players who have come up through the Raiders own system, and not to continue to cast them off without development for established veterans looking for a comfortable place to retire (Sapp).
The Raiders focused on developing players in the off season, and bringing in a fresh batch of rookies in our positions of priority. The D-line was viewed as a work in progress, and one where we were looking for input from Marshall after working with our existing talent.
During preseason games our talent at D-Line was found to be lacking so Davis, instead of picking up castoffs, went looking for quality help via a trade without selling the store.
As Seymore is considered one of the elite D-Linemen in the league, Davis obviously intends to keep him around for a bit. As Seymore's primary fear seems to be that he will be franchised in a no cap year, I wouldn't think that Davis would have a problem with giving him an extended contract (which rumor has them currently negotiating). If Davis does this, he can back-load Seymore's contract, creating even more cap space to make an additional signing (maybe Langston Walker who has just been released). He has reportedly already made a stab at Runyon.
One of the things that Seymore brings to the table is leadership. I see this as similar to the 49ers signing Jack Reynolds from the Rams in 1981. Reynolds was always given credit for infusing the 9ers with the leadership required for their first ever Super Bowl. One excellent signing in the front four could potentially turn the whole front seven around.
The Raiders could potentially be one good right side O-Line signing away from the playoffs after we sign Seymore. Davis is right to reach for it.
value:
if it's your hope that by 2011 we'll be in different leadership, which it appears alot of people do, then i can see why that the pick is more valueable for you.
if you believe like i do that we'll be under the same leadership, then i believe the stud now is the way to go. but then again i have faith in Al and believe in 2011 if he wants in the first round he'll get into the first round. period.
of the most value to me is we compete and win now. loosing this pick isn't gonna ruin us regaurdless. so why not try to win NOW? unless you don't really think we have a shot to win the AFC west. is that it?
but in my opinion adding what is the best player to the entire squad, resume wise, is of the utmost value. will that pick be? thats a big fat question mark. the way most of you hate the way we draft, i'd think you'd be doin backflips over this move. but i guess there's always a black lining in any cloud if you look hard enuff.
as the saying goes, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
for thos that need a little more splainin':
seymore= bird
draftpick= 2-in-da-bush
frkyraider
Sometimes you get frustrated and you yell at the room, which never really works as intended. Didn't mean to sound like I was trying to censor a side of the discussion.
This quote from pantyraider pretty much sums up how I was feeling:
"Crying 10,000 tears before a coin is flipped is conduct un-becoming a Raider..."
The Moss deal was great the first season. He got injured early year 2 and wouldn't get close to a hit after that. Then he pretty much quit.
The Hall/Walker deals I was skeptical about, but hopeful (more for hall than walker). I don't think Walker is ever going to amount to much anymore. I just think he's to many years removed and not a dedicated enough person to pull that off.
The Seymour deal feels more like the moss deal, hopefully it will work out better long term. Although the moss deal I really didn't want the bitch on our team, but you can't deny the skkills, so you go with it. I think it's going to take 3 years of Nnamdi money.
-moshbucket
Langston Walker anyone? Bills cut him.
not sure where we are on the wire list, or if we even want to touch it.
If he can't handle RT play him at RG. Not sure what he has left in the tank, but he's still a big mofo! Was always agile for such a big guy.
-moshbucket
or is it "two in the pink, one in the stink"?
RT:
I would hardly say Seymour has all the leverage. As outlined on PFT, below is the protocol and mechanics of a "hold-out" from Seymor ...
"NFL spokesman Michael Signora has outlined for us the procedure that would apply, if Seymour stays away.
The precise protocol is determined by the terms of the trade. "Traditionally the first condition is that the trade is contingent upon the player or players reporting and passing a physical," Signora said.
If the player doesn't report, the two teams can try to come up with a new agreement, or the trade could be called off.
The only leverage that can be exerted against the player is the dreaded "five-day letter," a precursor to placement on the reserve/left squad list.
"The club sends a letter to the player warning him that, in five days, the club has the right to place him on the reserve/left squad list," Signora said. "It explains to him that if they do place him in that category, he cannot play again this season, etc. After sending that letter and the expiration of the five-day period, the club does not have to place the player on the reserve/left squad list, but it may do so."
If the trade conditions the transaction on Seymour reporting, the Pats would be the team sending the five-day letter. If the Pats and the Raiders re-work the deal, the Raiders could in theory acquire Seymour's rights without Seymour actually reporting, just as the Buccaneers did a couple of years ago with quarterback Jake Plummer.
The Raiders and the Patriots could hinge the precise compensation for the trade on whether Seymour reports to Oakland, and whether he lands on the reserve/left club list.
Once on the reserve/left club list, Seymour would be unable to play for anyone in 2009, and his contract would toll by a full year, with his salary of roughly $3.7 million applicable in 2010, if he decides at that point to show up.
So, basically, this thing could go in a lot of different directions if, as some think, Seymour will refuse to play for the Raiders."
IMO, Jerry Mac had the best instinctive take on why Seymour hasn't reported yet.
In essence, Jerry Mac said that Seymour was more than likely in a state of shock.
He had just completed the last game of the Pats exhibition season and was preparing for a SB/Contract run.
It sounds like he was caught off guard by the 11th hour trade on Sunday morning. Think about it ...
Going from a 11-5 team to a 5-11 team, going from the East Coast to the West Coast, going from a place that he has called home for 8 years to a new and different environment, going from established relationships with players, coaches, and staff to starting over with a new group of people.
Let's suppose that Seymour has no desire whatsoever to play in Oakland.
Do you flush $3.7M and 1 year of NFL service down the drain or have the mentality of soldiering on for 1 season and revisting your career opportunities in 2010?
I suspect that when the shock wears off and he gets down to the business at hand (to play football and provide for his family). My best guess is that he will join the Raiders on or before Friday and his overall sense of professionalism will prevail.
I agree, Seymour doesn't have all the leverage, especially on paper, in the NFL bylaws.
But let's face it, this is a negotiation, and the Raiders want and need him, right now, yesterday...Badly. Yet Seymour can afford to drag his feet, can he not? And as he drags his feet, the Chargers creep ever closer. That's leverage.
So I won't be surprised if our hand is forced into some crazy contract or, worse, some no-franchise tag clause.
The best case scenario is looking to me like we overcompensate him and he joins the team. I guess that wouldn't be so bad, it's sort of what the Raiders do lately.
At that point, with a fat contract in hand, I hope he still has the fire to play with a fury for years to come, even if he might not be winning frequently for the first time in his NFL career; and that he can stay healthy at 30+.
Word is that he's a character guy, so that gives me hope.
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I don't think Seymour's goal is to sit out the season.
Right now, I think his goal is to sit back and say, Show me the money.
No agent worth his salt would advise him otherwise.
I have no problem with "showing the money" towards proven performers with high character who happen to fill our most dire need.
As a fan, I'm perfectly fine with our Capologist earning his salary by tweaking the books and the GM strong arming certain players to restructure their contracts.
Giving top dollar contracts to players like Sands, Hall, and Walker is a clear indication of "Crazy Al"... I agree.
Giving top dollar contracts to players like Asum, Lechler, and Seymour... is what? Paying the best players in the NFL what they are worth? Are there really people that have a problem with that?
And this didn't start happening until Cable became in charge doesn't convince anyone here things are changing???
Pulease...
>>>
I suspect that when the shock wears off and he gets down to the business at hand (to play football and provide for his family). My best guess is that he will join the Raiders on or before Friday and his overall sense of professionalism will prevail.
>>>
It doesn't hurt that the Raiders have already compensated the best players at their position TOP DOLLAR instead of trying to fuck them.
Is there really anyone left thinking this is a bad thing???
The Raiders certainly have made it a habit of establishing the highest salaries for player positions (DT, CB, Punter, Rookie QB... and those are just the recent ones).
I guess it's a matter of opinion whether or not these players are being overpaid, or overcompensated to play for the Raiders.
I don't believe that Cable really had anything to do with that, because that's not his job.
If Seymour is a stand-up guy, which many believe he is, he will play for the Raiders this year. If he doesn't, well, that speaks volumes to the league perception of the Raiders' organization and the other black hole, i.e, the one they've sunken into.
hey, this seymour deal is glossing over another great raiders off season trade.
looks like we traded draft picks for a back up center, samson satele.
way to go, scouting dept.
Interesting take from Jerry Mac:
"It’s a relatively safe assumption that the public silence from from both Richard Seymour and the Raiders is because they’re talking about a contract.
That being the case, Al Davis can expect to write another gigantic check to go along with the sums guaranteed within the past three years to Nnamdi Asomugha, JaMarcus Russell, Darren McFadden, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Tommy Kelly and Shane Lechler. The guaranteed money on those players alone comes to just under $120 million.
Davis also spent $16.5 million for 24 games worth of Gibril Wilson and DeAngelo Hall and $12 million last season alone on Javon Walker.
Those, as well as other industry standards, are the figures agent Eugene Parker will be looking at, and not the Forbes magazine study which says the Raiders are the 32nd ranked franchise in terms of value.
Within the past offseason, Asomugha became the NFL’s highest paid cornerback (three years, $45.3 million, $28.5 guaranteed). Lechler became the highest paid punter (four years, $16 million, $9 million guaranteed) and Isaiah Ekejiuba the highest paid non-kicker who plays exclusively special teams (three years, $5.4 million, $2.45 million this season).
So it’s clear Davis is willing to pay not only the going rate, but rise above it to reel in a player he truly wants.
It’s safe to assume Parker will point out Seymour is a more decorated defensive lineman than Asomugha is as a cornerback based on five Pro Bowl berths and three Super Bowl rings. The starting point will be to make Seymour the NFL’s highest paid lineman, and he’ll settle for somewhere in the neighborhood."
The comment about the Forbes magazine study which ranks the Raiders' franchise 32nd in terms of value clearly points out that cost and value can be completely different.
In the Northeast U.S., someone can easily spend $25K putting in a new swimming pool, but it might only add a couple grand to the value when you sell or finance.
So, I guess just throwing money at something doesn't always mean you'll get value. Who really needs a swimming pool in NY?
In terms of Seymour, there's clearly more potential value than others the Raiders have signed, but Seymour appears to be in the same line at the Al Davis money store.
Seymore -
As Seymore will be 30 this month, he can be considered a player on the down-side of his career. Offering Seymore a three year contract heavily loaded with incentives to receive a huge paycheck in the uncapped year of 2010 would be fair and reasonable. As the rumor has it that Seymore is in negotiation with the Raiders on a three year deal, I suspect that's how it will work out.
Santele -
Apparently the problem with Santele wasn't his physical ability but an inability to get the line calls down situationally. As Miami had Santele at Guard last season would explain why the scouts didn't see it. As stated earlier, I'd move Santele over to RG to see what he can do there.
Langston Walker -
I'm not sure this would be a good acquisition in a zone blocking scheme. If Walker could handle that, I'd say bring him back.
Hah! 200!!!!!
---Jeff
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