The Spin Starts Here
As of today, Nnamdi Asomugha, arguably the Raiders' most important player, does not know who our head coach is for 2010.
Quote: “I think he’s (Cable) back, they’re probably still going over stuff, but if he is the guy, me, just like the the other players, you would like to hear that.”
If Cable is the guy. Just like the other players, Asomugha would like to hear that.
Paging John Herrera.
You'll recall that Asomugha last year inked a three-year deal worth $45.3 million with $28.5 million in guarantees. He's not exactly Eric Frampton on the proverbial totem pole. Yet he doesn't know who his head coach is for 2010, but he would like to know.
Hey, you and me both, Nnamdi.
For weeks, I've been listening to all sorts of insufferable justifications as to why the Raiders will not throw their official support behind Tom Cable as their head coach for 2010 if, indeed, he is their head coach for 2010.
Well, apparently Nnamdi Asomugha hasn't been reading some of the comments here at Raider Take, otherwise it would all be quite clear to him.
Just so we're clear on this: Cable is our guy, so there's no need to say he's our guy, except for the fact that everyone, including our most important players, are wondering if he's our guy, which, as with the fans and media, is really none of their business, right?
Got it.
Quote: “I think he’s (Cable) back, they’re probably still going over stuff, but if he is the guy, me, just like the the other players, you would like to hear that.”
If Cable is the guy. Just like the other players, Asomugha would like to hear that.
Paging John Herrera.
You'll recall that Asomugha last year inked a three-year deal worth $45.3 million with $28.5 million in guarantees. He's not exactly Eric Frampton on the proverbial totem pole. Yet he doesn't know who his head coach is for 2010, but he would like to know.
Hey, you and me both, Nnamdi.
For weeks, I've been listening to all sorts of insufferable justifications as to why the Raiders will not throw their official support behind Tom Cable as their head coach for 2010 if, indeed, he is their head coach for 2010.
Well, apparently Nnamdi Asomugha hasn't been reading some of the comments here at Raider Take, otherwise it would all be quite clear to him.
Just so we're clear on this: Cable is our guy, so there's no need to say he's our guy, except for the fact that everyone, including our most important players, are wondering if he's our guy, which, as with the fans and media, is really none of their business, right?
Got it.
posted by Raider Take at 8:36 PM
872 Comments:
Al Davis is still alive and is the "guy" until he dies and thats all that really matters.....
The spin is that since Cable is under contract and hasn't been fired so in turn, there is no need, value, or relevancy in making an official statement supporting him.
The short-sightedness (sp?),lack of PR savvy and leadership of the organization is atrocious. Fan and player relations/morale suffers the consequences.
If Cable/the Raiders were coming off a 7,8,9 win season, I would agree that there would be no need to make an official announcement.
The fact that countless rumors swirled around Cable's firing (and continue to this day) plus the fact that the Raiders came off of another 11 loss season puts the need for a simple 9 word statement of "Tom Cable is our Head Coach for the 2010 season" in another entirely different light and context.
Some of the posters here at RT will say "it isn't necessary", "it isn't our team", "Cable is the HC" and that "the fans don't need an official announcement" etc. One wonders though do the players who bleed silver and black deserve to know? Should the organization communicate to it's prized assets like Asomugha? Frankly, I feel embarrassed for Asomugha that no one bothered to communicate to him and his teammates that the organization is 100% behind Cable.
I agree its kind of a backassward kind of way to run a normal corporation, but will this REALLY have any bearing on next season?
The entire company is on VACATION.
What effect does a HC have right now?
Ra-ra for the home team thoughts this early??
"I can't play in Sept because Al didn't stand behind my coach in Jan???"
Pulease.
Of course, Gary doesn't get it....you always cry for stability and when a player is asking for stability...gary just says, "what does it matter in January?".
I guess they just don't get it. I guess they don't understand what players want and need to succeed in pro sports. Gary, the players want to know if Al has Cable's back, the players want to know if Al is doing to Cable what he did to Kiffin. The players would like to know what is happening with the team, the one they play for and want to win for.
If the owner is going to show a lack of commitment to them, well, what makes you think in January, that these players will have a commitment to Al? Al isn't even for the players anymore, he is in it for some warped reason that makes no sense to winning.
Aso has put his career into the Raiders, a career that has tasted nothing but losing, you think he can at least get assurance who his coach will be?
JONES
Common sense suggests communication is requisite to run any company, big or small.
Maybe it’s the Raiders’ politics with the media that keep them from telling the players anything, because they know the players might be interviewed and they might tell the truth.
The Raiders are so used to dealing disinformation to the media, they’d prefer not to have the truth be told. Fortunately, most players are more scrupulous than the organization. So when a player like Nnamdi Asomugha says something about the team, you can be sure it’s 100% true.
I guess I never understood why the Raiders hide behind their shield. Would a little transparency really hurt them as much as they appear to believe it would?
Honestly, look what all the secrecy has done for them... losing games, empty seats, and dismayed star players.
Anno 7:38, you've burned a theme, all right.
All spammers must die in a fire.
--Jeff
Al won't say anything official (other than review is ongoing) until after the SuperBowl (just like last year).
SLIM chance he says something next week (after the senior bowl, when he sees what Cable has done down there), but probably after the SuperBowl, when there's a little less NFL news out there.
-moshbucket
NY Raider-
I agree very much with what you are saying and am struck by a comment you made, which to paraphrase was that they were used to dealing so much disinformation, they would prefer not to have the truth told.
I would push this out a little further and say that they really have no sense of what the truth may be or even is. At the most, it is a relative truth...a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury.
Any number of examples could be chosen to make the point but I will use one that is not related to football. Amy Trask recently made a comment, in relation to the value of the Oakland Raiders, that Forbes valuations were wrong. The issue at stake...the Raiders were ranked by Forbes at the bottom of their valuations of NFL Franchises.
Now I am not holding up Forbes as the bible here but come on! Corporate valuations like what Forbes is doing applies the same measurements across the board for all franchises. The numbers are public knowledge and so it doesn't require a whole lot to put this to pencil and paper.
The point is that the Raiders respond in their typical manner...it's not true, you have it wrong, etc. etc. etc. Yet the common denominator in this remains the Raiders. The whole world has it wrong but the Raiders know the truth. Unfortunately it is a relative truth based on their own reality and own perceived internal rate of return. It's beyond laughable and honestly, is just ignorant.
What is so problematic to many of us in the Nation is that just because there is a twilight and a dawn, it does not mean we can not tell the difference between night and day. Unfortunately, the management of our beloved organization cannot.
Blue Monday
Blue Monday....you just described the "crew" perfectly...good job.
JONES
Blue Monday,
The Raiders have to keep saying, not true, it's wrong, or, out of context.
Because the truth would reveal,
Al Davis = Failing at his job.
Amy Trask = Failing at her job.
John Herrera = Failing at his job.
The deceptions are the only thing that keep these people propped up.
Could Al Davis walk in and be hired as GM of another NFL team ?
Can Trask & Herrera be hired by any other NFL team ?
The answer is, NO, NO, & NO.
The denials keep the gravy train running full speed ahead.
But the coaches, players, & fans all suffer.
Gary - A couple quick rebuttals:
"The entire company is on VACATION."
Not true. NFL enterprises are a 365/24/7 business.
The coaching staff is evaluating their own personnel, attending the Senior Bowl, preparing for the draft, etc.
Although the players might take a few weeks off after the season, the majority have a fitness program in the offseason.
To take it 1 step further, most organizations have a specific offseason fitness regime tailored and communicated to each player.
Although JaMarcus Russell is on vacation, he should be putting in a ton of time studying film and getting his lard ass in shape NOW not just a month or 2 prior to mini-camp.
"What effect does a HC have right now?"
A huge effect. This is where a good HC really earns his stripes particularly between Jan-May in terms of breaking down film, evaluating every member of the 53 man team, assessing needs going into the draft and free agency, etc. It is during this time that a plan is put into place for camp as well. In short, this is the non-glamorous grunt work time that pays off for any upcoming season.
"I can't play in Sept because Al didn't stand behind my coach in Jan???"
Committment is not nor should it ever be a tempermental, seasonal pastime. Communication, setting goals & standards, and establishing a committment to winning should be done throughout the organization.
Wow, the TRUTH is bursting on here...good to see. Very good comments.
JONES
I shouldn't have said the entire company is on vacation, just the workers... agreed that staff is still working 24/7 but what are the players supposed to be doing besides lifting weights etc?
Its not like there are organized practices that Cable has to be leading.
I'd bet good money 90% of all not-in-the-SB NFL players are having no communications at all with their head coach right now.
Like I said... ideally we'd have an owner telling everyone that he is fully behind Cable, but it doesn't seem to be bothering Cable at all... and that seems like the main person to worry about.
Seriously, if you have to whine about THIS, I'm beginning to think people are looking for things to whine about [GASP]
The last NFL season isn't even over yet.
Relax.
>>>
Honestly, look what all the secrecy has done for them... losing games, empty seats, and dismayed star players
>>>>
So its the secrecy that is making us lose games now?
Could we be any more melodramatic?
BTW, if secrecy leads to losing, how does one explain the New England franchise?
"So its the secrecy that is making us lose games now?"
No. It's just a symptom of a much larger problem... which some people still don't get, and perhaps never will.
This comment has been removed by the author.
>>>>
No. It's just a symptom of a much larger problem... which some people still don't get, and perhaps never will.
>>>
So answer this question... if secrecy is such a problem, why does NE keep winning?
"So answer this question... if secrecy is such a problem, why does NE keep winning?"
Isn't the answer obvious?
They cheat!
Gary-- I'll answer your question. NE keeps winning because they have an outstanding GM and scouting staff that is able to evaluate and identify talented players (based on football awareness, not just speed) and an inovative coach that is able to utilize his teams talents appropriately.
I agree it has little to do with secrecy.
My take on the reason why Davis has not come out in full support of Cable is that he is waiting to see if someone better calls for the job. If he says he is 100% behind Cable it shuts the door. It is a chickenshit way to do business, but Al Davis is a chickenshit.
JF
N.E. owner delegates authority as does th GM and HC. The have competent people at all levels, people who are there not to just kiss the ass of the owner. There are more reasons.....I know gary, it's very hard for you to understand. Just like how you don't understand that jerking around the coaches and players in the offseason has an effect on the team during the season....one day you might know SOMETHING.
JONES
Clean up on aisle three.
Anno spammers #21, 22 and 23.
That is all.
---Jeff
>>>
N.E. owner delegates authority as does th GM and HC.
>>>
Nothing to do with secrecy.
>>>>
The have competent people at all levels,
>>>>
Nothing to do with secrecy.
>>>>
people who are there not to just kiss the ass of the owner.
>>>>
Nothing to do with secrecy here either.
Gosh Jonsey... keep swinging for the fences!!
You might actually contact a ball against me sometime soon.
And I was lobbing softballs to you!
>>>
I agree it has little to do with secrecy.
>>>
Exactly. Secrecy isn't a prescription to losing, losing simply makes the secrecy more annoying.
The Patriots run their franchise like a CIA operation and nobody gives a shit because they keep winning.
Gary, what a clown....I was referring to the question you asked on why N.E. was winning. I was referring to the way Al Davis doesn't want to do those things, thus the losing.
Secrecy is a myth...you really think the Raiders have no leaks? That's one of the dumb things of acting like Al & the gang are the CIA or something....using propaganda to throw off the enemy ( media and fans) and in full denial at all times...If the Raiders were a top team and Al was doing the secrecy garbage..hey, might have a different outlook..but when the team is embarrassing and Al is using the "cone of silence"...it's laughable and cannot be taken seriously.
JONES
note: arkie-faida, it is possible that he is related to big smell, inbreeding is rampant in clintonland, go faidas go "nation" 0-16 is the future.
Gary -
As I said, secrecy and disinformation are just symptoms of a larger problem.
You just don't get it. If we can't pin their entire losing ways to one factor, then it must not exist. Right!?
All teams carry a certain level of secrecy, but the Raiders no longer know how to use it to their advantage. They allow it to take over like a desease (Davis v. Lance Kiffin).
Meanwhile, the stadium is more than half empty during home games and the Raiders just sink lower and lower in the media-driven public opinion.
Imagine what a little transparency and goodwill would do to regaining the trust and faith of the paying customers.
Why is it that the Redskins avg 85k fans per home game, or that the Browns sell out every home game?
What is it about these teams that they enjoy far greater fan support and financial success than a storied franchise like the Raiders?
Raiders need PR, like fast!
Here's another example of the Raider Take-inspired media.
"Raiders' silence shows contempt for fans"
http://tinyurl.com/y8el5xw
"The Raiders pride themselves on mistreating their fans by withholding the most basic information. This is the MO dictated by Davis...."
"Davis holds to a bedrock belief that the media is the enemy and the more ways they can be jerked around the better."
If this guy had an original thought, lightning would strike him down.
This is my personal favorite:
"...the Raiders, the gold standard for condescension and contempt. How's that working out for you, fellas?"
I'm back. Spent much of the weekend screwing up my back even more helping out with baby furniture. This grandfather thing can be painful, but it's worth it.
Raider00 – Calico,
“As I recall, the question regarding Jano, was he worth using a #1 pick on ?
Remember at the time, we already had Joe Nedney, and many other holes to fill.”
“The majority of complaints regarding Jano wasn't about his abilities but the fact he was taken in the 1st round.”
No, much of the talk was about dumping him. It was pretty much agreed that first round was probably a bit high for a kicker. My point in the debate was who were we going to get that was better. Why would I be saying that if the debate was just about where he was drafted?
As for Joe Nedney, he was released by at least two teams after we let him go.
Jonesy,
“Blue Monday....you just described the "crew" perfectly...good job.”
Oh ye of pet names, you still haven’t shared your brilliant plan for effecting change, or when the meeting of your band of merry men will take place. It's a very simple question, "What's your Plan?" Or, is it a “secret”.
Also Jonesy,
“Gary, what a clown” - Is it even remotely possible for you to put two or three sentences together without calling someone a name. That is the tactic of an elementary school playground bully with an inferiority complex.
I take it back, three sentences would be stretching it.
By the way everybody, when we were winning and Al Davis was all secretive and paranoid, which he was, it was all fun and games. Just one of his eccentricities. Now, when we ain’t doing so hot, its part of a larger problem. Can you spell “fickle” boys and girls? I thought you could.
While the secretive paranoia coming from Alameda seems to be rampant, it’s not much different from back in the day. It's just the circumstances and media coverage are different, very different.
H
The Raiders have never left any hanging questions about whether or not Tom Cable would be back as head coach. WHENEVER Davis has planned on making a change, people have known it in advance. Name ONE time when that hasn't been true.
While the press was busy telling us that Kiffin wasn't going to be back for his second season, he was. But Kiffin was determined to get fired. After embarrassing Raider Nation in the season opener, then word started coming out of Alameda that Kiffin would be gone.
The Raiders NEVER raised any question as to whether Cable would be back this year. Go ahead. If you tell me there is a question is floating out there, then YOU show ME where they raised the question.
Show me ONE circumstance where Tom Cable, Herrera, Davis or Trask even suggested the possibility that Cable was going to be gone.
You WON'T. Because you CAN'T.
There is no question to me that Tom Cable is the Head Coach of the Raiders in 2010. If Nnamdi has a question (which I doubt that he really does), I don't know what raised it in his mind, but he should call Tom and ask him. Or he should call ESPN and ask why they assured everyone that he'd be fired the Monday following the season.
Why do folks here choose to waste their time on things that don't matter? Why are you wasting my time with this nonsense, Take? Nothing else to do?
>>>>
NY:
Imagine what a little transparency and goodwill would do to regaining the trust and faith of the paying customers.
>>>>
Pardon me for being cynical here, but I call bullshit on this one... any transparency and goodwill would glance off of you like it encountered a foot of Kevlar.
You'd just look for something else to complain about... especially if the losing continues.
You see NY, Al is smart enough to know that the only thing that will win people like you over is WINNING.
Thats it.
Thats the list.
You can deny it all you want, but I still know it is true. There is nothing Al can do to please any of you until the winning returns.
I think he gets this.
Right now all I want is Gannonkowski signed, and the Raiders making SENSIBLE picks in the draft. LT, DT and LB first three picks... mix em any way he wants... I don't care. LT, DT, LB.
Thats the transparency I want from Al.
RT was right. Let the spin begin, and don’t let the facts get in the way.
Blanda -
"WHENEVER Davis has planned on making a change, people have known it in advance. Name ONE time when that hasn't been true."
What about the Raiders flat out denying Shell would be fired?
The Kiffin example isn't fair to you, Blanda, because that whole thing exposed a severe illness that plagues the Raiders.
Yeah, Kiffin came back, but at what cost? How many months did Davis wait to fire Kiffin while he was filling in the blanks for an overhead transparency?
Gary -
“You see NY, Al is smart enough to know that the only thing that will win people like you over is WINNING.
LOL! Al has me figured out. Now if he could just figure out the draft, FA, coaching, and winning games.
Answer my question: why do the Redskin’s and Brown’s sellout games, but not the Raiders?
I’m sure the Raiders would love to know your answer.... Obviously, it has nothing to do with winning!
Tomorrow’s Headline:
Secrecy the Key to a Healthy Raider Nation.
The Raiders denied that Shell was going to be fired before they had made a decision. I think there was about four games left when BSPN reported he'd be gone. I believe that if Shell had put a couple of wins together before the end of the season, he WOULD NOT have been fired.
Whatever damage was caused by Kiffin not being fired is not the issue. The point was that you were well aware that it was going to happen before it happened. And there were certainly a lot fewer questions regarding Cable at the end of 2009 than Kiffin at the end of 2007.
To say that Davis owes the fans an explanation is spin in and of itself.
"Answer my question: why do the Redskin’s and Brown’s sellout games, but not the Raiders?"
Easy.
The Browns have NO other local competition in Cleveland.
The Redskins have a high income fan base who don't suffer from a bad economy, while the Raiders have a working class fan base greatly effected by a bad economy.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
Blanda -
San Fran/Oakland is the 13th largest MSA in the county, at 4.27 million people.
Washington shares a market with Baltimore, and a pop base of 2.67 mil.
Cleveland is the smallest of these markets, with a mere 2.08 mil pop. The only game they came close to not selling out this year was against Oakland.
Guess what. There are even smaller markets in the NFL than Cleveland and DC. Why don't you compare average income of Redskin and Raider ticket holders.
Frankly, I think the entire stadium in DC is sold out to season ticket buyers. The average Joe in DC can't get in. But lobbyists, politicians and K street executives fill up the reserved seats.
Cleveland has no competition and a tradition that goes back far beyond the Raiders' tradition. However, the Browns did, at one time, have trouble selling tickets - when they moved to Baltimore and became the Ravens. If you're going to compare the Browns to anyone, you need to compare them to Philly.
Every market is different. Why do you think teams move.
But I also think the press has a little to do with it. Seems like there are some fans out there who like to ignore their own common sense and parrot the likes of Timmy Kawakami. Well, I guess that's much easier than thinking.
Also, what difference would Raider secrecy have in Cleveland fans determining whether they go to a Browns game? I mean, that's from so far out in left field it's not even recognizable as logic. Could it be that the reason they had trouble selling out that game was because the fans are struggling as it is, and didn't want to go watch TWO losing teams play for absolutely nothing? Could it be that the reason the Raiders are not selling out now is because of seven years of losing.
Are you really going to try and tell me that if the Raiders had been winning for the past seven years fans would avoid coming to games because Al refused to say that Cable was coming back - even when it was obvious that he was?
This comment has been removed by the author.
If, if and more ifs. If the Raiders were a winning team? Not likely. The key is the organizational structure; the disarray within that structure is the problem, not "secrecy" (another strawman as I see it). The issue with Cable is that the Raiders were playing games with the press, which doesn't have the effect of increasing morale in the Raider players, Tom Cable and/or the assistant coaches.
And of course Al was testing the waters out there for head coaches. Tom Cable is hardly impressive, whether you like the guy or not. Even considering all the things Al screws up on, he's not gullible enough to think that Tom Cable is the absolute long-term solution: the chances of Cable getting an extended contract are not very good. The reason Al has had trouble finding an experienced and/or successful head coach is due to his insistence on controlling offensive and defensive philosophy: of course, that can't work in today's NFL.
Blanda says,
"Are you really going to try and tell me that if the Raiders had been winning for the past seven years fans would avoid coming to games because Al refused to say that Cable was coming back - even when it was obvious that he was?"
You're being fallacious in your argument again Blanda. The above is a red herring. 'Ifs' don't cut it. There's not 'one' reason the Raiders are not selling out games, but one can be certain that Al Davis' image and PR are chief instigators. No legit or successful business wants bad PR. But the Raiders feed the press goodies quite often. But then, that bad PR is a symptom of a greater problem: the Raider organization is in complete disarray; frankly, it's never been in worse shape.
"Al Davis is still alive and is the "guy" until he dies and thats all that really matters....."
Boy, thanks for the education and probing insight. *chuckle*
onandonandan, gary's right. There is ONLY ONE reason why the seats go empty. As soon as the Raiders start to win again, you'll be back again like a cheap whore.
"Al Davis is a chickenshit."
JF
if you JF actually believe this statement, then you know nothing of the game you like soo much. you are as ignorant as you sound making that statement.
as for you RT, being the owner and sole proprietor and moderator of this site, and the fact that if i say its dark you agrue its light, if i say its cold you argue its warm, you dispute all that you disagree with in this site. i have left this alone for days waiting for you to at the very minimum express your difference of opinion to this statement. you have done nothing of the sort. to which as far as i'm concerned makes you everybit as culpable for it as the person who said it.
i'm ashamed that you call yourselves fans of this team and of professional football in and of itself.
Emperor Fkyraider
Blanda says,
"onandonandan, gary's right. There is ONLY ONE reason why the seats go empty. As soon as the Raiders start to win again, you'll be back again like a cheap whore."
Sorry, but that's like saying if A=B, than B=A. Duh!! Of course if the Raiders start winning a LOT of games they will fill the seats. But guess what? Other losing teams have more loyal fans when the shit gets rough. Why is that? That is because Al hasn't always showed loyalty to his own fans, and he's often placed his greed (spending time on petty lawsuits) above the interests of assembling a winning organization.
Beyond that, we are losing for a very specific reason, and the way the Al is dealing with the press currently is a symptom, not the cause (your spin of our position), of dis-organizational disarray. Spin it all you want. But there's no 'ifs' here. We're not winning, and it's not simply because of bad luck.
onandonandon, you idiocy grows by the hour. The Raiders three best years since being back in Oakland (attendencewise) were 2001, 2007 and 2008. For the latter two that represents sales after four and five years of losing respectively. They did better in those years than they did in any of the Gruden years.
frky says:
"i'm ashamed that you call yourselves fans of this team and of professional football in and of itself."
Well, then get lost and stop yer whining already. The last thing I need is a some guy who didn't even grow up in the East Bay telling me or anyone what is a real fan and what isn't. Go get out your Raider X-mas ornaments to confirm your pathological need to be an elite Raider fan worthy of passing judgment on other fans and leave us to our misery, k?
The King says:
"There is no question to me that Tom Cable is the Head Coach of the Raiders in 2010. If Nnamdi has a question (which I doubt that he really does), I don't know what raised it in his mind, but he should call Tom and ask him. Or he should call ESPN and ask why they assured everyone that he'd be fired the Monday following the season."
"Why do folks here choose to waste their time on things that don't matter? Why are you wasting my time with this nonsense, Take? Nothing else to do?"
Way too funny Balanda. How can anybody be "wasting your time", when it is your choice to post on here? LOL, you make out like we are protesting on your front lawn and you want nothing to do with it....you are a warped bugger.
As far as Aso goes...you think he doesn't have Tom's phone #? You think Aso is so stupid that he wouldn't ask someone within the Org before he said that to the press? Or is Aso in on the "hate Al" conspiracy?
If Aso can't find the answer and wants an answer, just to reassure the team....why isn't he able to get it? Why wouldn't anyone from the Org give him an answer? Why would Aso say to the media that he "hopes" Cable will be back, why would Aso say HE AND THE REST OF THE TEAM WANT TO HEAR IT? It's because the PLAYERS ARE NOT SURE, JUST LIKE THE FANS AND THE MEDIA.
So, in Al's world of messing with the media, he is hurting the team...but dopes on here just can't figure that one out. Now this is just another sign that Alameda is a mess.......do we have to go through all of the Drama that is Alameda again? Or are you just going to take Aso's word for it???"??
JONES
Aso did not say he had asked anyone. did he?
frkyraider
"onandonandon, you idiocy grows by the hour. The Raiders three best years since being back in Oakland (attendencewise) were 2001, 2007 and 2008. For the latter two that represents sales after four and five years of losing respectively. They did better in those years than they did in any of the Gruden years."
Ah, we're back to the name-calling and fallacious arguments again, eh Blanda? The irony of you calling ME an idiot given your numerous misstatements of the facts. But that aside, what are you arguing here? You just stated that winning alone determines attendance, the THEN you refute your own argument. Here's what you just said:
"There is ONLY ONE reason why the seats go empty. As soon as the Raiders start to win again, you'll be back again like a cheap whore."
I'm contending there is NOT one reason. So thanks for backing my argument against your own. LOL And yes, I do contend that Al's consistently illogical behavior, particularly over the last couple of years (although this dis-function has been a trend since the mid-80's if you were to graphically analyze it), has had an effect on ticket sales. That illogical behavior includes stunningly poor draft picks, wasteful and unrealistic FA signings, petty games with the local sports media, petty lawsuits such as the one with Lane Kiffin and Al's insistence on maintaining a steel grip on his coaching staff. I talk to local Raider fans every day who are telling me this is the reason they're not re-upping their season tickets or going to games more frequently.
Do you ever keep track of what you're saying Blanda? Good grief.
onandoffandonandoff,
"Well, then get lost and stop yer whining already. The last thing I need is a some guy who didn't even grow up in the East Bay telling me or anyone what is a real fan and what isn't. Go get out your Raider X-mas ornaments to confirm your pathological need to be an elite Raider fan worthy of passing judgment on other fans and leave us to our misery, k?"
get bent, i'll post here if i like whether you like it or not, probably more if you keep making it clear it bothers you so much. i'll pass judgement on you too just like you do to everybody here. now i have to have grown up in the east bay to do so? or to be a "true" fan like you? once again, get bent!!!
frkyraider
Frky,
I could care less what you do, but you're acting like a little baby. Stop yer whining. If you don't, that's your choice, but I reserve my right to call you on your nonsense.
And isn't it amusing that you would chastise me for saying what a real Raider fan is? Are you friggin' serious holmes? LOL It's YOU that been playing that card.
X-mas ornaments?? Bah! Some people have a deeper connection to this team than mere fashion statements.
BTW, I'll extend an olive branch. If you stop with your nonsense about who is or isn't a real Raider fan (which just sounds stupid and juvenile), I'll hold off on questioning what this team or Al Davis means to you. But I won't stop criticizing Al; Al is worthy of criticism in this case.
"I'm contending there is NOT one reason." You're right. There isn't ONE reason. There are two.
Let's see they've been losing for seven years, so I think that part is pretty clear.
I'm trying to think if there might be some other reason why attendance fell way off in 2009. I'm really having to put on my thinking cap here. OH! I thought of something!
MIGHT IT BE THAT CALIFORNIA HAS A 12.5% UNEMPLOYMENT RATE - WHICH IS MUCH WORSE IN THE CITY OF OAKLAND?
Naw... That couldn't be it. Sheesh!
I thought of something too Balanda...I think there is a fatman, his name is Russell...He was a failure, as was DHB, the fans have had enough, hence the billboard.
The fans have recognized a failure as a franchise and will not spend their money when an owner shows he couldn't careless of the fans. I say it is from mismanagement, if the product is good and the promotion is good, the product will sell no matter what your stats are for Oaktown. The BAY AREA, ALL OF California would love to go see a good Oakland team. If the product was top notch.
But it's like a poorly run restaurant with bad food. Nobody will want to go back and what used to be a very good restaurant has become run down and poorly managed Org.
Some will continue to go because they remember what it USED to be like, but even they are turning away.......it is a continual slide down a shit rope and it will continue to slide down the rope until there is an Owner/slash management change.
JONES
LOL, don't know why I threw is a / and the word slash.....my bad.
JONES
JONES, the billboard was created by a fan on the other side of the country. He never went to home Raider games anyway. Oops.
So Blanda, let me get this straight here: you're saying that the sales of a given business are not affected by a bad image (poor PR), consistent mismanagement, poor communication and bad results? Cause that's what it seems like. And truthfully, that defies the basic principles of economics. Again, there are MANY factors that contribute to decreased sales. Markets are very complex. Reducing it all down to a simplicity in order to direct criticism away from your hero Al doesn't come off as all that intelligent. Personally, I think you know better. But your insistence on defending Al at all costs gets in the way of your better judgment.
So let me get this straight. You're saying that the local economy has nothing to do with the sale of luxury purchases?
You find no correlation to the fact that over the last few years, up until this year when the economy collapse, the Raiders ticket sales IMPROVED? Then when the unemployment rate shot up (almost over night) to 12.5% in this state (and 17% in the City of Oakland), all of a sudden the stadium was half empty.
You suggest that people will be happy to have their kids go hungry and pay for tickets with money they don't have if only Al weren't the owner. Interesting idea. Stupid, but interesting.
The king acts like there never has been an economy crisis before....if fans that are just barely making it, are your core fans.....then you are in big trouble.
Luxury suites go to those with BUCKS and they use those suites for mostly business purposes. If your product is poor, why would a Businessman try and use the Raiders to help promote himself and or business?
If you have a good to great product that represents good business, no problem. The Raiders show no business sense whatsoever, so if you want to come off as a loser, take your prospective clientel and or someone you want to impress to a luxury suite to watch the Raiders.
You have cater to the BUYER, the guy who shows up and SPENDS, if he really enjoys what he is coming to see...he will SPEND. If it's a drag and a poor product, booing and poor play. Poor coaching and dysfunctional ownership that doesn't show anything that he is trying to please you, he won't have much of a chance of filling the stadium. ESPECIALLY when the economy is poor, this is when a franchise has to be air tight...do you see that Balanda? Throw in a very lengthy period of this type of Org...you will lose fans, they will not SPEND.
JONES
Hey, JONES! Wake up! It's later than you think. The Raiders aren't having trouble selling their luxury boxes. Just like the Redskins aren't. They are having trouble selling all of the other seats.
Every time there is a bad economy, ticket sales for sporting events drop almost everywhere among the working middle class. It's not true for movie tickets, because movie tickets are still fairly cheap. However, when the eonomy is bad in this day and age, even movie theatre tickets get sold less in favor of DVDs and ON DEMAND.
I can't believe I'm having to back up something as basic as breathing.
"I could care less what you do, but you're acting like a little baby. Stop yer whining. If you don't, that's your choice, but I reserve my right to call you on your nonsense."
i call someone out and you call it whinning. you call me out and its called, calling me out. make up your mind onandoff. i'll call people out if and when i choose, you can call it whinning if you'd like, but dont be surprised when its turned back atcha and your constant whinning and crying, cuz thats all you do is bitch bitch bitch dude.
"X-mas ornaments?? Bah! Some people have a deeper connection to this team than mere fashion statements."
pretty hung up on my x-mas ornaments aren't you? you just keep talking about them. jealous much? lmao. people "support" the Raiders in different ways. thats just one of many many ways i show my support. fashion statement? hardly. maybe i should withold my money and support and YOU would think i'm a really big fan. pfffft!! you do it your way i'll do it mine.
frkyraider
According to Cable, he never had any doubt that he'd be back in 2010 and calls all statements otherwise as "speculation." He says all that the team has focused on since the last day of the 2009 season was due diligence for the 2010 season.
Get ready for this. Here is a circumstance where, if it pans out, I'll call Al Davis stupid to his face. You don't send someone on a scouting mission to the Senior Bowl if you know, and he knows, that he's going to get fired as soon as he comes back.
So, right now, if we later find out that Tom Cable has been fired, I'll call Al Stupid to his face. (If I never meet him, I'll get a picture.)
In the mean time, I'll just call the people who fail to realize that Cable is the 2010 HC stupid. Fair enough?
You didn't answer my question Blanda, but instead constructed another strawman. However, I will happily answer your questions.
Blanda says,
------
"So let me get this straight. You're saying that the local economy has nothing to do with the sale of luxury purchases?"
-------
I don't remember ever saying that. Care to find the quote?
To answer, we're not simply talking about "luxury purchases." Moreover, I've contended that the reasons for declining ticket sales are due to a whole host of causes, including Al's mismanagement of the team, and poor public relations. You instead said there was only one reason: losses. You then argued my own position in the very next post; and, when called on it, you came up with one more reason: at this point, your assertion includes TWO reasons. Now, I NEVER asserted that your reasons didn't factor in. But my question to you was whether or not the reasons I brought up have any relevance. Because I've never heard of any business that doesn't take into account public relations, brand image, managerial miscues and personnel performance when assessing a loss in sales.
Blanda continues:
-----
"You find no correlation to the fact that over the last few years, up until this year when the economy collapse, the Raiders ticket sales IMPROVED?"
-----
Sure. I also correlate it to the enthusiasm over so-called sure-thing draft picks like JaMarcus Russell and Darren McFadden, both of whom I predicted would be average players at best. Guess I didn't buy into all the media hype. But no matter; surely you couldn't disagree with me now that there's more than ONE or even TWO reasons for the declined ticket sales and that it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that Al has been destroying both the brand image of the Raiders and his legacy in the mind of several local Raider fans. They put up a BILLBOARD fer chrissakes! Like I said, I live here and KNOW lots of Raider fans who grew up in my community. I'm not making this up.
Blanda continues further:
-----
" Then when the unemployment rate shot up (almost over night) to 12.5% in this state (and 17% in the City of Oakland), all of a sudden the stadium was half empty."
-----
I think your statistical analysis on this is a bit simplified. Did you run an ANOVA analysis or any other true statistical test? Doubt it. 49er ticket sales did fine, and they are losing. People who go to 49er games are generally of the middle class variety - the same as Raider fans. In fact, Candlestick (Monster) is a far less desirable football stadium to attend.
I'll submit to you that local 49er fans have more faith in the 49er organization than the local Raider fans have in Al. That's a fact. You didn't see any anti-mgt. billboards in that part of town. Of course, they should be happy that we left them the best receiver in the draft and chose the worst one; you know, the guy who was KNOWN for dropping balls in college?
Blanda takes it home:
------
"You suggest that people will be happy to have their kids go hungry and pay for tickets with money they don't have if only Al weren't the owner. Interesting idea. Stupid, but interesting."
------
Ahh, but what's both interesting and laughingly stupid is the strawman you've constructed ONCE AGAIN to build a case for your ever-shifting argument. One? Two? Three? Four? How many is it now. In fact, I NEVER stated the above and you know it. You wrote that to distract away from the core argument; you know, the one you can't make up your mind about?
Good grief. *chuckle*
Looks like the king is going to have to call Aso, stupid. Aso says he doesn't know if Cable will be back, he is unsure, thus the wanting to hear it from management.
Just like the fans want to hear it, just for the sake of backing up the HC and at least making the image that all are on the same page. When players are questioning it, if fans are questioning it, why can't Alameda just answer the question for the good of the franchise and assurance to the fans?
It would do some good and it might put more asses in the seats...what a concept, huh?
JONES
Hey Balanda, how would you know how the luxury suites are doing? They are sold mostly by the game basis. If the team isn't doing well, then the suites are not sold out.
This is FACT, not all games were sold out on luxury suites, seeing as thats a big chunk of live revenue....so I wouldn't rate that as " not having a problem"...Balanda, you are false to the core...give it up.
JONES
Nnamdi has a great sense of humor. He also says that he participated in contract tampering.
Onandonandon, been writing that since the beginning of 2009? I expect so.
I don't think "strawman" means what you think it means. Better look it up.
My point is that the Raiders are losing customers for two reasons - losing and the economy. Your point was that the Raiders are losing customers because of Al Davis' refusal to play games with BSPN.
Blanda says:
"I don't think "strawman" means what you think it means. Better look it up."
LOL I think YOU better look it up. Self-awareness is not your best trait, it it?
Blanda continues:
----
"My point is that the Raiders are losing customers for two reasons -.."
But I thought it was ONE reason. ;-)
More Blanda:
----
"...losing and the economy. Your point was that the Raiders are losing customers because of Al Davis' refusal to play games with BSPN."
-----
Well, no Blanda. My point was much broader than that. But I suppose I laid more on you than you're capable of absorbing.
I wonder about you Blanda. Is it your lack of intellect, or are you just being dishonest? Cause I was pretty explicit and detailed in what I thought. And you tend to use a lot of strawmen. Example:
Blanda fallacious argument #1:
_____
"You suggest that people will be happy to have their kids go hungry and pay for tickets with money they don't have if only Al weren't the owner. Interesting idea. Stupid, but interesting."
_____
Now, again, you KNOW I never said that. But you use this little trick a lot in your arguments.
From Wiki:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
So are you starting to get it now? Either you're just being dishonest, or you're simply irrational. Because I clearly conceded that some of what you said factors into the equation; yet, you keep pretending that I didn't, and in the process continue proposing events that didn't happen. What's wrong with you? You seem more intelligent than that, but your nostalgic and strict ideological view of Al really leaves a lot of holes in your arguments. Your misstatements are many, but when you're called on them, you simply gloss it over and make up a new untruth. Strange.
If this and if that: let the fun continue.
Blanda says (straw man #2):
"Your point was that the Raiders are losing customers because of Al Davis' refusal to play games with BSPN."
And of course, that was not my point, nor was it even a sliver of my argument.
-----------
http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html
-----------
Straw Man occurs when
an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary
and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument;"knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.)-- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument.
------
I guess you really didn't know the definition, now did ya?
Blanda:
"According to Cable, he never had any doubt that he'd be back in 2010 and calls all statements otherwise as "speculation.""
-------
I don't remember anyone arguing that Al was keeping Cable abreast of his decision-making process. Just the opposite in fact: if Al is looking around and weighing his options, the last thing he would do is tell Tom Cable what he's up to. I mean, what else would Cable say? *chuckle* He would of course want to come off as confident. Seems like a pointless argument you're making to me.
FYI, I think Cable is staying too. But there's little doubt that it was up in the air. Moreover, I think Al is eying Hue Jackson as a future head coach: this way he can get a feel for Jackson's tendencies and at the same time get mileage out of Cable's contract. There's simply no way Al is going to re-up Cable's contract. Cable has had even more power taken away from him this upcoming season, and it's not like he had a whole lot to begin with. Can you say "lame duck?"
You call it strawman, I call it wall moving. Balanda must work for Alameda, he is on here Monday to Friday, 9am to 4 pm. Once his shift is over, he either posts as someone else or he has had enough of the lying so he escapes it by not posting on off hours. There is no other reasoning as to why a guy would do what he does..is he a professional propaganda machine. No matter how insane his responses are, he just continues on like it never happened....THE KING IS DEAD.
JONES
BR -
I would agree that the Raiders are losing paying customers due to poor performance on the field and the recent recession.
Those aren't the only 2 reasons but I would contend that they are the chief reasons.
However, what really blows my mind is what the Raiders are doing as a business entity to overcome the 2 chief reasons for dwindling attendances:
(1) Losing - 7 consecutive seasons of 11+ losses.
Footnote: The record breaking losing is mismanagment with a capital "M".
How would an organization rectify this ineptitude?
* Hire a GM.
* GM hires a HC who is more qualified, higher profile, and gets the fanbase energized with hope.
* Allowing the HC the authority to hire his own staff and 100% authority to start the players he sees fit
* Better draft evaluations in particular 1st round selections
* Better free agent acquisitions that add critical pieces to our team's needs in particular our OLine and DLine.
(2) The economy; The Raiders are a business entity. Are other businesses neglecting marketing, media/fan/public relations during this downturn? Of course not.
With the team losing 11 games a year in a tough economic climate, the Raiders organization needs to do more (not less) to reach out to the fan base.
"The Raiders pride themselves on mistreating their fans by withholding the most basic information. This is the MO dictated by Davis...."
I didn't read this article quoted earlier by someone else but it encapsulates the general feeling by many fans.
It is almost like it is beneath the organization to acknowledge the fans
The economy? The NFL is thriving right now with record-breaking attendance and huge TV contracts. It’s just the Raiders that can’t do business.
In 2007, the NFL set a paid attendance record for a fifth consecutive year, totaling over 17.3 million.
In 2009 the paid attendance was approximately 17.2 million, or about 1.0% decline over record-breaking attendance in 2007.
On avg, the NFL reports attendance at approximately 90% stadium capacity, league-wide.
The Raiders average paid attendance was just around 55% capacity.
In 2009 there were 22 blackouts (256 games), of which the Raiders owned like 5 or 6 (not sure).
If we’re going to pin the Raiders' problems on the economy and demographics, then Davis better concentrate on moving the team out of Oakland to a larger market like LA. Oh yeah, they already tried that.
I already brought up the 49ers to Blanda, who had nearly full capacity throughout their 8 home games. So why is it that the 49ers sold more tickets to games at a vastly inferior football stadium? It's not like the people who attend 49er games actually live in San Francisco.
See, I don't discount that economics doesn't factor in. But the biggest factor is clearly Al and his management of the team. This isn't biochemistry. Clearly, Al has diminished the brand image of the Raiders, both with Raider fans themselves, and with NFL fans across the league. It ain't the media. It's Al.
Well, this take was aptly titled.
We've reached the point where if it was reported that the Raiders had taken candy from a baby, someone would come here to offer a vigorous defense of the action as well as a perfectly "reasonable" explanation for it.
It's quite fascinating, I'll give it that.
On and on and on,
Economics aside you are wrong. The biggest factor IS the teams record. If a team has a winning record and makes the playoffs, people don't give a rats ass what the management is doing.
H
But, H, it is the management of the team that sets it up for winning...this is something you and your "crew" cannot understand...maybe it's because you don't really know how it works?
JONES
H -
"Economics aside," do we need to re-review the attendance stats for other losers like the Skins and Browns?
Raiders were not the worst team in the league this year, but they had by far the worst attendance.
Wins are NOT the only thing that brings fans, but that's the ONLY thing the Raiders are banking on. Shame they can't deliver!
According to PFT.com JaMarcus shows off his bling during a basketball game.
There was a video on youtube.com but it got removed..hmmmmm....
smells like the work of Herrera LOL.
"When you're in the discussion for biggest draft bust ever, and you're wearing a necklace that features a diamond-encrusted self-photo and the word "Chosen", along with about a million dollars worth of other diamond bracelets and rings, you clearly do not get it."
And he never will!
Oh, but wait Hue Jackson will save him right Al? I can't wait for the day Al gives another famous press conference when he says, " I thought I draft the guy. But he wasn't the guy I thought I drafted."
Soon this shall pass......
If Jerry Porter has $312,000 worth of bling on him when he's out running errands and getting a facial (waz up with that??), one can only imagine what J-Bust was wearing in a public setting.
Porter's chain probably looks like a Mr. T starter set compared to Russell's.
There should be a law that Russell have all his bling and financial reward held in escrow until he learns the freakin playbook.
I have come to the conclusion that bloggers like Blanda, & Frky really HATE Al Davis.
That's right, they simply hate the man.
Why else would they happily support all of Al's losing ways ?
The more Al lose's, the happier they are.
The more Al destroys his legacy, they act as giddy as children.
It's hard to understand people who purportedly "root" for Al Davis, more determined to see him remain in last place.
It'a as if they have formed a circle around Al. And anyone that tries to reach him in order to help him, they will block away.
Blanda & Frky have become the guardians of Raider losing.
What's the old saying ? "With friends like this...
lmao. you tryin to bait me
baiter00? pretty weak attempt
i'd have to say.
frkyraider
It's not bait Fakeyraider.
after reading your opinions, what other conclusion to draw ?
you seem happy with the status quo.
you defend the status quo.
unfortunatley, the status quo is losing the Raiders a lot of football games.
"you seem happy with the status quo.
you defend the status quo."
please explain how i defend the status quo. and stop TELLING me how I feel. i'll never understand that one. you feel this way, you are happy with this. ridiculous.
apparently you haven't read my opinions then or you just can't comprehend what you read. what other conclusion to draw?
i have repeatedly said i am not for the status quo, i would like to hire a new GM. i like winning also, and would like to get back to that as soon as possible. understand now?
frkyraider
If the press asked Cable if Al raped his mother, you guys would want Al to come out with a statement confirming whether or not it was true.
I mean, nobody has CONFIRMED that Al did NOT rape Cables mother?
Just sayin'.
-moshbucket
>>>
Raiders were not the worst team in the league this year, but they had by far the worst attendance.
>>>>
HA!
Uhh, I hate to break this to you, but its because Raider fans in Oakland by in large are much like YOU.
I ADMIRE fans that go to home games regardless of whether they win or not. Tell me you don't regard them with contempt and worthy of ridicule... go ahead.
Make me laugh!
There are 2 reasons, and 2 reasons only that Raider fans are staying away from home games (Raider fans show up in droves at visiting cities).
1. They can't handle losing.
2. They don't think the team will ever start winning again.
Thats it, thats the list.
So Mosh, that unfortunate analogy is your best crack at justifying why our most important player is still wondering, in February, if the team has Cable's back, despite the fact that the team has been quite happy to issue all sorts of clarifying announcements on other fronts, such as the announcement excusing Russell's oddly timed trip to Las Vegas?
Listen to yourselves, folks. We are reaching new lows in logic.
Another new low in logic, courtesy of Gary:
Marketing and fan relations have absolutely nothing to do with attendance.
All those multi-million dollar marketing departments around the NFL are, in fact, completely useless.
How stupid can they be to waste money on something like that?
Not only do they hate the team, they hate the fans......"Uhh, I hate to break this to you, but its because Raider fans in Oakland by in large are much like YOU."
They hold contempt for those who do not follow Al along like a lost puppy. They despise people who have a brain of their own and who can identify what ails the franchise. It's like a dumbing down experiment...count me out.
JONES
"I ADMIRE fans that go to home games regardless of whether they win or not. Tell me you don't regard them with contempt and worthy of ridicule... go ahead."
excellent point Gary.
i was watching the N.O. game last weekend, they were panning thru the endzone seats right on the rail. i see this guy that i see every year and have for quite a few years, he's a "die hard", been around from way back.
when the saints were about to wrap up the game they panned back to the dude and i thought to myself, "good for that guy, i am happy for him that he gets this victory".
now would i have been happy for Johnny "saint" come lately who started buying tickets once the saints started winning. hell no. but i'd have been happier for Johnny "saint" come lately who just started buying tickets a couple years ago more than i would have for the guy who quit buying season tickets for the losing years and then jumped back on once they started winning.
i was happy for the die hard guy, good for him. way to stick it out bro!!! the rest of the bandwagon jumpers shouldn't even be able to celebrate!!! F them!!
frkyraider
Ja, RT... tell me that you would renew your season tickets with better PR, and a million dollar marketing dept!
Like I said make me laugh!
You'd prolly have a take that the million dollars would be better spent on a GM.
Pulease.
You have pretty much completely given up on this team, and that is your prerogative... and I am not even going to argue with you that they in some ways the Raiders don't deserve it. They've made a ton of blunders the last 7 years.
But quit trying to make this into something more than a binary winning/losing situation.
If the Raiders put a championship quality team on the field next season, and went deep into the playoffs without any changes at all besides what happens on the field... I guarantee you will be swooping up season tickets again in 2011.
>>>
i was happy for the die hard guy, good for him. way to stick it out bro!!! the rest of the bandwagon jumpers shouldn't even be able to celebrate!!! F them!
>>>
I have friends from Usenet that still loyally go to all the games... and one of them isn't saying many things different than what most of the regs say here (Sac D for Arky.)
Once things do turn around, I can't wait to congratulate him for sticking things out through thick and thin! And yes, I DO think things will turn around fairly quickly... this team has some good young talent on it.
The NFL makes it almost impossible not to... hell the Saints, Arizona, and SD were the laughing stock for HOW LONG in the NFL?
They are now three of the premier teams in the league.
If you can't figure out why... suggest a fantasy draft without the "serpentine" style drafting... there wouldn't be a single person joining, and for good reason. The NFL-style draft is heavily slanted to the crap teams.
Here we go again with the drawing of a line in the sand for who is a "good fan", a "loyal fan" and "someone who sticks it out through thick and thin". Seriously, when will this drivel end?
My favorite comments from today,
(In regards to poor attendance):
"If a team has a winning record and makes the playoffs, people don't give a rats ass what the management is doing." - H
My response is that it is largely management's fault for 7 straight seasons of 11+ losses. People don't give a rat's ass about managmement if/when mgmt has their act together by making winning priority #1.
Management has 2 primary roles:
(1) Put a winning product on the field
(2) generate as much revenue as possible through tickets, luxury suites, merchandise, etc.
On both counts, managment has failed.
(on an official announcement of Cable as Head Coach);
"If the press asked Cable if Al raped his mother, you guys would want Al to come out with a statement confirming whether or not it was true." - Moshbucket
Bad analogy and poor choice of words. Fans, media, and Raider players wanting to know that Cable is the confirmed head coach is VERY reasonable in the context of what's transpired the past 4 weeks.
(On fan loyalty and attendance);
"I ADMIRE fans that go to home games regardless of whether they win or not. Tell me you don't regard them with contempt and worthy of ridicule... go ahead." - Gary
I think it is great that there is a core group of fans who attend games whether it is 1 game a year or season ticket holders.
I also believe that there are some fans that make value decisions from year to year on how to spend their entertainment dollars based on their economic means and proximity to Oakland.
Why would anyone show contempt?
At the end of the day, every fan makes choices on their level of committment, time spent, and money spent. It is called free will.
SacD is a good man. And he's going to be rewarded well when we start winning again.
Hell, if I was living near the Bay Area instead of Arkansas, I'd be there for every home game.
JMHSO
---Jeff
It once again has come down to a pissing contest with the "crew" declaring themselves an exclusive club of diehards......their reasoning why they are a diehard compared to others is laughable.
We are all here aren't we? We are all still debating about OUR team, right? So how do they become "better fans"... been a fan for decades, still write about the Raiders every day...now come on, how is the "crew" going to tell me I am a bandwagon fan?
Their "reality" must carry over into their regular lives....how do they tie their shoes?
JONES
The easiest money to spend is someone else's money.
Been a fan for 4 decades and these piss-ants want to tell me about sticking with MY team through "thick and thin" ... save it for a rainy day in Seattle.
big smell (MR.) davis is NOT a 'chicken shit" he may smell like he is, but that's only because he needs his Depends changed. big smell the "genius" will continue to take his faidas to depths unknown, and he will be proud as he does so. Winning isn't everything, sometimes you have to make a point of who is in charge! And big smell wants all faida fanatics to know that he is in charge....period. NOBODY tells big smell what to do with HIS team! He will keep them losing just to make his point too! 0-16 will be his goal for the next 2 seasons to make his point...Just live with it babies. Long live big smell. Long live the faida nation.
At least now we’re comparing criminal offenses to the way the Raiders operate; because it is criminal, making some folks here accessories to the crime.
Gary -
In response to your post (why fans don't go to games), what's your excuse?
Have you ever been to a Raiders game???
I’m guessing no, so how would you know what motivates Raiders fans to go to games?
You've posted in the past that you watch games on TV, and when the Raiders are getting their asses kicked, you casually find something else to do. Yet here you are defending the faith.
>>>>
In response to your post (why fans don't go to games), what's your excuse?
Have you ever been to a Raiders game???
>>>>
Why in fact yes I have! I have flown half way across the country 3 times to see them in Oakland; and drive 5 hours EVERY YEAR to see them in KC... I also watch them every year they play in Mnlps which has been maybe 4 times the last few decades. I remember going to a Raider game when Les Steckle (sp?) was coaching the VIkings.
So I have watched them every time they are within 5 hours of my home, regardless of record... does that answer your question?
>>>
Why would anyone show contempt?
>>>
You haven't seen it here before?
Look... I am simply making the point that there are fans that have given up on the Raiders for one reason and one reason only... they keep LOSING.
I think the excuses that its because Al doesn't tell them Cable is their coach, or that the PR dept is bad, or even that Al hasn't hired a GM... are just that... excuses they are using to justify giving up on the team because they don't win very often.
I also think I am right that these same fans will be the first in line to buy tickets again if the team starts to win consistantly again, without any other changes made.
Thats my only point.
Its all about the wins/losses baby.
To claim its a bunch of other reasons is disingenuous... especially while pointing fingers at OUR logic.
"Been a fan for 4 decades and these piss-ants want to tell me about sticking with MY team through "thick and thin" ... save it for a rainy day in Seattle."
i too have been a fan for 4 decades.
as far as this "piss ant" telling YOU about sticking with YOUR team thru thick and thin..... you seem to keep taking these things i say like i'm saying them directly to YOU. you have informed me that you have not changed your support at all recently. that you do the same things you've always done to support your team. if this is true, now read this carefully, then i aint talking to or about YOU. you get it Mr defensive? geez, me thinks thy doth protest too much. guilty complex would be my guess.
hey, it's raining in seattle today, can i say it now? i guess it was ok to say yesterday because it was raining then too. guess what, it'll be raining tomorrow too, so better prepare yourselves.
frkyraider
>>>>
nyraider said...
At least now we’re comparing criminal offenses to the way the Raiders operate; because it is criminal, making some folks here accessories to the crime.
>>>>
I will GLADLY plead guilty to that offense.
I have no shame at all in admitting I am a hopelessly hopeful for the Raiders every year.
This coming season moreso than most... for reasons I keep identifying (a good QB, coaching stability, good young players with some added key veterans) but for some reason people like you ignore this and keep acting like all is lost.
Oh... Al doesn't say Cable is coach, and hasn't hired a GM.
Those are the reasons to expect 5 wins again!
My bad!
Gary, you should hire yourself out to each NFL team and explain that you can immediately save them millions of dollars if they'll give you a 10 percent cut of the savings.
Then you can explain that all of their marketing and fan relations activities are complete wastes of time and money. You will be wealthy in no time.
I'm getting used to the illogic here, but the pride in the illogic is reaching new levels.
You'd think being wrong about the state of the Raiders for several years might engender some humility, but, in fact, the opposite is occurring.
H, you oversimplify. We have been a trending losing franchise for the last 20+ years, the last 7 being the worst. There's a reason we're losing. THAT'S a significant reason why attendance is down. So, no; I am not wrong. I'm just taking into account all the factors instead of making some grand statement about 'what is' in order to misdirect blame way from Al. Again, ask yourself why the 49ers attendance was at near-full capacity last season.
It's interesting how frky and Gary are arguing that the Raiders are losing fans not because of losing per se, but because the fans have given up hope on Al. Bingo! Finally something we can agree on! Losing is not my issue as much as it is the way Al refuses to take the right steps in order to have a chance at winning.
More 'ifs' again. If the Raider do X, we'll do Y. Binary logic is not used as any analytical tool in the real world, #1. Secondly, the Raiders won't go to the playoffs next season because they don't have the organizational structure and talent to do so. X is not possible. So these scenarios being conjured up about what WE will do, are not based in reality.
Ok RT... yes or no question... if the Raiders hired a million dollar marketing firm to handle PR, would you rush out to buy season tickets again?
Be honest!!
(Preparing myself for RT's famous break-dancing)
Sorry Gary, that's not going to cut it. This has nothing to do with me personally.
Own up to your take.
According to you, marketing and fan relations have no impact on attendance. Therefore, NFL teams that pour tons of resources into these things are stupid and wasting their money, right?
Once again, you've "outsmarted" the room.
the last time the Raiders employeed a marketing firm to sell thier tickets they were so bad at it that they had to fire them and sell them themselves. at which point sales spiked drastically. IIRC.
onandon,
"It's interesting how frky and Gary are arguing that the Raiders are losing fans not because of losing per se, but because the fans have given up hope on Al."
i've made no such statement. quite to the contrary, i HAVE said that if and when the Raiders start winning the "fans" (and i use the term loosely) will be buying tickets again. that is damn near indisputable even by you negative nellies. by damn near i mean, you CAN dispute it, just that you would be wrong.
frkyraider
Thanks for proving Gary wrong, Frky.
That's a great example of how marketing has an impact on attendance.
Ok, I will play your game... if Indy disbanded their marketing dept, would the fans suddenly stop going to the games next season?
The Raiders are playing in front of half full stadiums because the fans are disgusted with the losing, not because they are disgusted with the PR dept. Why are you even arguing this?
It seems kinda silly.
>>>>
onandon,
"It's interesting how frky and Gary are arguing that the Raiders are losing fans not because of losing per se,
>>>>
I must be typing in a foreign language here... I clearly have said like a THOUSAND TIMES that its because of the losing.
In fact I said its my ONLY point... scroll right up there above and you can see it JC!!
JFC...
frky said:
i've made no such statement. quite to the contrary, i HAVE said that if and when the Raiders start winning the "fans" (and i use the term loosely) will be buying tickets again.
-----
So does winning just happen magically? Organization, management and ownership doesn't play the most fundamental role in making that happen? Of course they do.
and continues:
that is damn near indisputable even by you negative nellies. by damn near i mean, you CAN dispute it, just that you would be wrong.
--------
Dispute what? That winning would bring more people to the games??? Duh!!! I've already stated that's the case. But the case you and Gary are making is oversimplified and doesn't account for the factors as to WHY we're losing, which is vastly more important. It's already been shown that a losing team across the bay, with a worse stadium, is filling their stadium on a regular basis. Why is that?
gary said...
Ok RT... yes or no question... if the Raiders hired a million dollar marketing firm to handle PR, would you rush out to buy season tickets again?
------
Everyone answers "no" to that question, but there's statistical basis for concluding that marketing and brand image are the most significant factors in selling ANY product. That's an indisputable fact, whether your simplistic brand of logic can absorb it or not.
This comment has been removed by the author.
>>>
the last time the Raiders employeed a marketing firm to sell thier tickets they were so bad at it that they had to fire them and sell them themselves. at which point sales spiked drastically. IIRC.
>>>>
But the games with that very same marketing dept for the most part were SOLD OUT during the three year championship run (except a few games.. and then only a few rows on top of Mt. Davis).
It was hard to even find scalped tickets during those three years... I know this for a FACT... I went to three games during this period!
Too bad Gary. I thought we were finding a little agreement here, but let's review:
-----
I said:
"It's interesting how frky and Gary are arguing that the Raiders are losing fans not because of losing per se, but because the fans have given up hope on Al. Bingo! Finally something we can agree on! Losing is not my issue as much as it is the way Al refuses to take the right steps in order to have a chance at winning."
-----
Gary replies:
I must be typing in a foreign language here... I clearly have said like a THOUSAND TIMES that its because of the losing.
In fact I said its my ONLY point... scroll right up there above and you can see it JC!!
-----
Okay GARY. I scrolled up and here's what I found:
-----
You:
"There are 2 reasons, and 2 reasons only that Raider fans are staying away from home games (Raider fans show up in droves at visiting cities)."
1. They can't handle losing.
2. They don't think the team will ever start winning again.
-----
So Gary, you began with TWO reasons and now you're down to one??? Are you going to go all 'Blanda' on me? You clearly stated a unique situation in that Raider fans don't think their team will win again. And I'll add to that, that it is really about WE don't think we can win until Al makes the necessary fundamental changes needed to even START being a successful organization. Your TWO reasons above equate to a loss of faith in Al and the hope that we can win, combined with the fact that yes, we ARE a losing team. Duh!!! That part is kinda obvious. Lastly, the theory that it is losses alone (a pretty simplistic notion) is disproved by the team who is filling seats across the bay.
Then why doesn't Indy disband its marketing department, Gary?
They are clearly idiots.
The Raiders saw a 30 percent spike in season ticket sales in 2006 after three straight losing seasons? Why, because even their own unremarkable marketing was light years better than the OFMA's.
>>>
1. They can't handle losing.
2. They don't think the team will ever start winning again.
-----
So Gary, you began with TWO reasons and now you're down to one???
>>>
Uhh, JC.. I am NOT getting into a pissing match with you.. read those two points carefully and they essentially deal with the same thing... losing.
And the NFL is all about two things COACHING AND QB's and I assert that we now might have both in place, which will trump anything that happens administratively.
You can assert you hate Grad and Cable as much as you want, but that is just your opinion.
My opinion is we are fine with those two, despite the inept administration above them.
>>>
Then why doesn't Indy disband its marketing department, Gary?
>>>
Why would the want to do that? I have not asserted that marketing should not exist... just that fans show up for games because they think their team will win.
>>>
They are clearly idiots.
>>>
No, they get top notched coaching and signed a HOF QB.
On the list of 20 structural priorities, this is number one and two.
Marketing would be at the bottom with hot cheerleaders.
>>>>
The Raiders saw a 30 percent spike in season ticket sales in 2006 after three straight losing seasons? Why, because even their own unremarkable marketing was light years better than the OFMA's.
>>>
Only after three years of losing made it necessary... and IIRC, all he had to do is drop the ticket prices on Mt. Davis. Duh.
If the Raiders kept winning all these years, OFMA would prolly still be in charge.
The games were sold out when they were winning.
Hey Jonesy,
The NFL’s history is replete with teams that change management/coaches get to the playoffs, maybe even the Super Bowl and are back in the toilet two year later with fans calling for the head of the coach and GM. They go from genius to moron quicker than the Thunderbolt Grease Slapper can do a quarter mile.
NYRaider,
In actuality, you can’t remove economics from the equations. For the San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont area the unemployment rate is 10.1%, but Oakland itself is at 16.3%. Considering the core Raider Fan residing in Oakland is more blue collar than most places, with the possible exception of the Cheeseheads, they have had to rearrange their spending priorities. Then there are those, such as Take, who live outside Oakland and have chosen to not make the multi hour trek to the coliseum until things improve.
Suffice it to say, the average Whiner fan has more disposable income than the average Raider fan. Plus, they have to have an unemployment rate fairly south of 10% to come up with that average. Same for the DC Sunburns fan base, especially since their stadium isn’t in the inner city but in the suburbs closer to where they are living.
Cleveland is a mixed bag, but they are also coming off a more recent winning season than are the Raiders and closed with a flourish and installed a new administration, so the bloom wasn’t quite off the rose yet. They also aren't inundated with monthly reports of the teams impending move.
I further contend that had Cable, squeezed out two additional wins in 2008 Take and the other commuters would have still been on board and with good reason. How would one predict Russell would actually get worse.
On and On,
I find that if you break things down to their simple components they are easier to understand. Simple, Al Davis is the owner. It makes him both ultimately responsible for the last seven seasons, as he has admitted, and untimately responsible to fix it. Simple, whether I agree or disagree with his decisions and actions, he is the owner. Simple, I don’t plan on wallowing in the pit of despair or stomping my feet and holding my breath when people don’t agree with me about a game.
H
Uhh, JC.. I am NOT getting into a pissing match with you.. read those two points carefully and they essentially deal with the same thing... losing.
-----
I agree. But they also deal with the fan's reaction to losing, and the basis for it. I AGREE with you that the Raider fans have lost faith in winning. And I think that has a lot to do with brand image and Al's handing of the team. Clearly, he has diminished his legacy.
------
You continue:
And the NFL is all about two things COACHING AND QB's and I assert that we now might have both in place, which will trump anything that happens administratively.
-----
Well, that's just a plain disagreement between us. I don't think Cable is anything but a lame-duck coach. Al took more power away from Tom, and that historically hasn't worked very well. Beyond that, I don't see Cable as a legit NFL head coach. He wasn't even a legit college coach: he took a winning program and turned it into a losing one.
Re: QB. Bruce isn't going to be the savior of this franchise IMO. I like his competitiveness too, but his skill-set is below-average. I also think that winning is about more than QB's and coaches; although, clearly those are essential in today's league.
You contine:
------
You can assert you hate Grad and Cable as much as you want, but that is just your opinion.
I don't HATE them Gary. I actually look at them as coaches and players. Grad's stats are hardly any better than Russell's over his career. And once teams start keying in on him, he's in trouble. I saw it in Tampa Bay. He'd have 2-3 really good games and then stink up the joint. I have no idea why you think that's going to change.
As far as Cable, his W-L record as a head coach in both college and the NFL speaks for itself. And frankly, Al picked the guy because he's willing to let Al dictate where the power goes, as Al is doing this off-season.
-----
Lastly, Gary says,
"My opinion is we are fine with those two, despite the inept administration above them."
-----
Okay, but aren't you basing that opinion more on hope than evidence. Believe it or not, I hope you are right, but I sincerely doubt.
And FYI, I think we CAN win with Al at the helm. It's just that Al needs a team of people around him who he can feel comfortable letting them have a more significant influence than the group we have now.
Gary, I get it, an excellent winning product will attract more paying customers than a crappy one.
You act like this is some major discovery on your part.
It does not explain why the Raiders are losing paying customers at a faster rate than any other team in the NFL, including such craptastic franchises such as St. Louis, SF, Buffalo, Cleveland and Jacksonville.
You say that marketing and fan relations have NOTHING to do with this. And you are proud of being wrong. Again.
Yes fans come when there is winning and fans stay away when there is record losing....what happens in between the winning and losing is what makes a franchise successful. This is the whole point, isn't it?
Obviously, what is happening in Alameda brings losing. If it continues, so will the losing and so will the diminished crowds. this is the whole argument. Pro Al crowd doesn't think there is a big problem with how the franchise is run.
They seem to think that sooner or later the moon will line up with Jupiter and magic will happen again. Where as the anti Al crowd see's major problems with Alameda and it's process, thus the continued losing.
This is the argument....those pro Al's who say they want change but they still want Al to run the team...that IS NOT CHANGE as you can see once again by this off season. Anti Al want wholesale changes where Al stays out of day to day Ops and a capable men are hired to create CHANGE. All the posing and declaration that they are REAL fans is just trying to make themselves seem superior because they have a small......or something.
JONES
H
And that's why Al needs to use his knowledge to hire a capable person. That's like saying you can't jump over the creek to save your life because some have jumped and didn't make it. What are you going to do? Stand there and die? Or, will you try and jump?
JONES
“Anti Al want wholesale changes where Al stays out of day to day Ops and a capable men are hired to create CHANGE.”
You still haven’t shared your great plan to make this happen.
Actually Jonesy, I’d find a shallow point and ford the crick. If not, I’d swim. At my advanced age and with my back and knees, jumping isn’t an option.
H
H
It doesn't need a top security plan, it's fairly obvious to anyone who has a clue to what it takes. I know it's hard for you to figure out, being just a country boy and all...maybe you can use that thing called the INTERNET to research it....research what most successful franchise's use to WIN.
See how they have proven people who organize and use their expertise to make GOOD, SOLID decisions. Not fly by the pants with questionable motivation to make decisions. See how they have stability and lack of dysfunction as their mantra. See how it is completely opposite to Alameda.
You can't live your life or run a franchise being scared of change. You can't go through life and run a franchise thinking " can't do that, it might be worse"...sometimes you just have to jump, especially when your life or franchise is at an all time low...haven't you learned that either? Shame to be so old and know so little.
JONES
You can have the greatest marketing campaign in history, but it will only take you so far if the product sucks.
When that happens people vote with their wallets. Especially when there are other economic considerations.
It's a total package. Good marketing and packaging, good product.
Sure, we'd like to see some changes, but oh woe is us because Jonesy won't share his super secret plan to change what is going on at HQ. So we don't know what to do and we will continue to wander in the desert until Jonesy shares his masterful vision.
H
H
Is your life so poor? is your life so bad that you only get joy from yanking chains? Isn't that what a "troll" does? You say:
"It's a total package. Good marketing and packaging, good product."..... It is also good management, stability, sound and solid decisions. It all comes together, the players come together and the coaches come together because they are PROUD to be associated with a top notch ORg , THUS THE WINNING.....are we making progress H...is it finally sinking in? Can the "crew" come around to logical thinking?
JONES
"It doesn't need a top security plan, it's fairly obvious to anyone who has a clue to what it takes."
I didn't ask what it takes to turn a franchise around. We of the "crew" were criticized for actually saying we don't spend our time worrying and fretting about it because, in the end, there's not much we can personally do about the situation.
It even went so far as to compare this situation to the Boston Tea Party for crying out loud.
So, I asked a simple question, what are YOU going to do about it. Thus far the question has not been answered.
So, Jonesy, I've heard ad nauseum what Al SHOULD do. I want to know what you are going to do to get Al to actually do it?
H
What are you going to do H? I come to these sites to discuss what is wrong or right with the Raiders. Not to tell you what I am doing. If you want me to tell you what I am doing, give me your phone # and I'll call you and we can go over it, OK?
JONES
What any Raider fan should know, if they are truly a Raider fan, is Al Davis' philosophy regarding marketing for the team. It's very simple but, admittedly, it's not practice by many, if any other teams in the NFL.
Al spends minimally on marketing. Primarily just enough to get out word of what is planned for the fan and when. He does that to keep as much available for the players as possible. He spends the money on bonuses and a world class training facility. He believes that money is better spent when trying to put a winner on the field, and winning provides the greatest marketing value.
When the team is losing, it doesn't change the picture where other teams would be spending their money on providing promotions like free t-shirts with the team logo to get folks into the stadium. Frankly, I'd rather have a winning team than a t-shirt. And when the team is losing, I'd rather Al spent that money on building a winner rather than giving me a free t-shirt.
There is no question that seven years of losing can leave you feeling like your not getting a t-shirt or a winner but, again, I don't care for a t-shirt.
Take, maybe you should write to Al and tell him you want a t-shirt this year. It can say, "Seven Years Of Losing And All I Got Was This Lousey T-Shirt."
I'd rather spend the money to make the playoffs and forget all about the seven years of losing.
Jonesy,
Get a clue, I've said stuff like that since before you showed up and started calling people names for having the audacity to disagree with you.
Chain yanking is a time honored tradition amongst friends. It's called sarcastic humor, witt, jocularity, take your pick.
Don't know about you, but my life is pretty full. That's why I don't stomp my feet and hold my breath over these things.
Here's some logic for you.
Do the Raiders suck right now?
If Yes:
Can you do anything about it?
If yes - do it
If No - don't worry about it
If No
Have a cold beer and enjoy
Otherwise:
Have a cold beer and don't worry about it
H
I can do what I like with it, you don't need to tell me how to handle the Raiders' losing ways. If that works for you, good on ya. I say, you never have to accept anything you don't like, you can do what ever you want to change it....sooner or later, change will come, if I can bring it sooner, I will.
If you mock me for trying, too bad for you...I say you are an idiot for accepting and then mocking those who try. To me, you are someone who has given up....I don't feel like "giving up" is part of my make up. So you sit and have a beer, I will go ahead with what I can do to help CHANGE this franchise....even if it is just .001%, so be it. You get a couple of million at .001%, that would make a difference in my book...good luck , "ole timer".
JONES
"What are you going to do H? I come to these sites to discuss what is wrong or right with the Raiders. Not to tell you what I am doing."
Then STFU critiqueing us because we don't get our colon's all kinked up like you do. It's you and your "crew" that are all over us for not "doing" something.
Basically you have admitted there is nothing YOU can do about it even with all your knowledge and truth.
Me, Blanda and several others of the "crew" have been here for years saying what we would like Al Davis to do, who we would like him to draft/sign. We look forward to each season, each Sunday with optimism. When it doesn't go the way we would like, we get on with life because it's a game.
I'll take that crew everytime, because they are always looking forward with one eye on the past to guide them. They may not agree on how to get there, but they are interested in what is over the horizon.
Your problem is you can't stand it if people don't conform to your standard or don't agree with you. That's why you call people here names and sling insults like confetti. Yep, there's a troll here, go look in the mirror.
H
By the way "not accepting" something, is not the same as "doing" something about it.
H
Joney,
Give Al a call and tell him this is totally unacceptable.
H
It only took king 2 days to come up with his new angle. Now it is " you are a Raider fan if....you reject the marketing failure". OUTRAGEOUS. So you are a true fan if... you agree that Al is spending his money wisely because HE IS NOT spending money on marketing. HILARIOUS.
Hey Balanda...maybe if Al spent more money on marketing, he might sell mory luxury suites and or reg.seats? YA THINK...he would make up that million in a heart beat....wow, you are really dumb...you have no clue how business works, you have no clue on what makes a winning team....SIT DOWN, THE KING IS DEAD.
JONES
JONES, here's another clue. Stomping your feet, and calling out Raider fans on a blog is not going to have the slightest effect on how Al Davis runs his franchise. Staying home while they are losing will only reaffirm to him that winning cures everything.
Like H, my life is also very full whether the Raiders win or not. The Raiders are my entertainment, not my job. When they cease to be entertaining to me, I'll stop paying attention to them. And frankly, even with the current losing ways I find them entertaining. If they were more like every other team, as you wish they were, they'd lose some of that entertainment value and I might well have stopped watching them by now. So the reality for me is that, win or lose, I find the Raiders to be the most entertaining in football.
Hey Blanda,
Can I "crew" with you on your boat next time I'm in Southern California?
Next time you are in Georgia you can get in my "crew" cab truck and we can visit some Civil War battlefields.
H
H
All I can say is your post is a failure.....you are a quitter, I am not...you can make excuses for not caring, I won't. I care and that's why I have the attitude I have.
I care about the Raiders, so much, that I will even waste my time posting to you. Changing it is my motivation, my motivation isn't condoning an absurd product, like you do.
You say I am so upset and stomping my feet...that is a picture you are painting. I am composed about it, the disgust has passed and the road is clear. It is so very obvious why "the team of the decades" is failing, it bothers me that they are failing.
I, like many Raider fans, want change, the wave is picking up steam. People like you and the "crew" are trying to break down that wave. You say you are nuetral, in REALITY, you are going against the flow towards change. America needs doer's, not people who accept and say "have a beer and go bowling...right Dude?"
JONES
"I care about the Raiders, so much, that I will even waste my time posting to you"
Free country, you don't have to.
And, again, since you can't debate/argue a point you resort to name calling.
Sad, truly sad.
H
H, you can crew on my boat any time. But you better move fairly quickly because I think I'm going to wind up selling it. Work keeps me away too much. When my father was alive, he'd use it as well, but it now too often sits unused. It's kind of a famous boat on the bay, so I figure I can find a good owner who will give it the love and care it requires.
My God, isn't JONES starting to sound like Glen Beck. "I just love the Raiders so much," sob. And America depends on the Raiders winning this year. Sheesh.
So, you got that, H? Unless you're on board with "changing" the way the Raiders do things, your a traitor to this country.
"America needs doer's".
Yep, doer's who are worried about millionairs playing a game against milliionairs.
If that's what makes you feel good, ride that wave dude.
H
Balanda, I bet you watch reality shows, don't you?...you like watching dysfunction and insane behavior. You get a kick out of it, thus your infatuation with the Raiders. If you find this entertaining....then you have to be 3/4's out of your mind.
99.9% of the world would not find it entertaining....most people find it appalling. The MILLIONS of Raider fans are just waiting to bust at the seams for a team to be proud of. The Raider fans crave a hard working, a very together team, from top to bottom, all on the same page. The winning record will come once this is established.
It's all the fans want, why can't we have that? Why, for once, can't we have a smooth running team, with nothing but positive coming out of Alameda? WHY? It's all we ask for...watching this team and Org year after year is like getting kicked in the balls. After a while, you don't want to get kicked in the balls anymore. Anyone who says that is entertaining is either insane or is a MAJOR chain yanker.
JONES
"My God, isn't JONES starting to sound like Glen Beck. "I just love the Raiders so much," sob. And America depends on the Raiders winning this year. Sheesh.
So, you got that, H? Unless you're on board with "changing" the way the Raiders do things, your a traitor to this country."
The king using misquotes...= got nothing left. The king is dead, you are done Balanda...you are false to the core. H is the quitter and you are the insane buddy. Wow, what a crew, how do you paddle yourselves down the creek?
JONES
H, he posts to us quite a bit for someone who says he won't post to us anymore. Doesn't he?
For those interested in football and not JONES' How To Hate Al lessons...
One of the things that I keep hearing is that this coming draft is loaded with O-line talent. If that's the case it could be the reason why we avoided drafting for the o-line in 2009 - anticipating what would be available this year.
While I tend to be nervous drafting QBs and O-linemen in the expectation of immediate dividends, this year's class of free agents is abysmal. I'd expect to see at least two O-linemen picked up in April.
"Balanda, I bet you watch reality shows, don't you?...you like watching dysfunction and insane behavior. You get a kick out of it, thus your infatuation with the Raiders. If you find this entertaining....then you have to be 3/4's out of your mind.
99.9% of the world would not find it entertaining"
pretty bad analogy for proving your point.
so just why are reality shows all the rage? if 99.9% of the world don't find it entertaining? geez, how do you tie your shoes?
frkyraider
JONES sounds nothing like Glen Beck. Glen Beck has 13x the ratings of the next highest rated show in his time slot.
Jones might get 5 viewers if he had a show.
JMHSO
---Jeff
>>>
RT:
Gary, I get it, an excellent winning product will attract more paying customers than a crappy one.
You act like this is some major discovery on your part.
It does not explain why the Raiders are losing paying customers at a faster rate than any other team in the NFL, including such craptastic franchises such as St. Louis, SF, Buffalo, Cleveland and Jacksonville.
>>>>
I guess I am not making myself clear. I think its because of the binary "championship quality team or SCREW YOU" mentality of many Raider fans.
Thats what I see from people like you, NY, Jones, and OnandOn.
I think Blanda makes a good point... is a free t-shirt REALLY going to get you to purchase season tickets again? Cmon.
The ONLY thing bringing you back is a championship quality team... you can't even bother to deny it.
>>>
You say that marketing and fan relations have NOTHING to do with this. And you are proud of being wrong. Again.
>>>>
You seem to be obsessed about me being wrong or something.
Very peculiar.
>>>
so just why are reality shows all the rage? if 99.9% of the world don't find it entertaining?
>>>
If there was a reality show based on the Raiders and their fans, I bet it would get really high ratings.
We have everything.. eccentric owner, eccentric and passionate fans, villains, hero's, drama... people that hate Al, people that love him. Nobody has a neutral position on the Raiders.
Too bad Al is such a stickler for a mafia type privacy... it would be a killer teevee show!
>>>
One of the things that I keep hearing is that this coming draft is loaded with O-line talent. If that's the case it could be the reason why we avoided drafting for the o-line in 2009 - anticipating what would be available this year.
>>>
I dunno... the last class was pretty outstanding too... thats why I keep dwelling on Al not screwing this one up.
We coulda picked any of the four blue chip LT's last year and been happy... I bet the same can happen this year too! This doesn't even require any thinking, just cross off the LT taken above you and pick the next one.
About as close to a "sure thing" as there is in the NFL.
Hell, many players consider Gallery a flop... but he's still our best o-lineman.
H -
“NYRaider, In actuality, you can’t remove economics from the equations.”
I didn’t, you did. You say “economics aside..” when making a statement, then when I repeat that sentiment in direct response to your point, you say I can’t do that. Bending the rules much?
Your discussion of demographics fails to recognize an MSA over 4 million strong. Surely, the Raiders could do better than 35k fans per game - win or lose - in one of the largest markets in the country.
“You can have the greatest marketing campaign in history, but it will only take you so far if the product sucks.”
I guess any marketing is better than no marketing. Or should we disregard marketing because it probably won’t work anyway?
FrkyRaider,
No, I do not understand you.
You claim,
"i have repeatedly said i am not for the status quo, i would like to hire a new GM. i like winning also,and would like to get back to that as soon as possible."
But then you turn around and argue with anyone on this blog who calls for these things.
You call for change, but then defend Al Davis doing the same things over & over.
How exactly are you on the same page as us ?
You can kneel at Al Davis' feet, waiting to be petted on the head.
But all that will get you is another 11+ loss season.
You can't stick your toe in the water and claim to be Michael Phelps.
It's either the status quo with Al Davis, or change without him.
No fence sitting. Just pick one baby.
Gary said: "The ONLY thing bringing you back is a championship quality team... you can't even bother to deny it."
Oh, I'll deny it. A competent football team that demonstrates proper priorities will see me more often, it doesn't have to be a championship or even playoff team.
I traveled eight hours round trip this year to watch one of the games, despite the fact that winning hadn't yet returned as the top priority. I just didn't do it five times, as I did when I was a season ticket holder (I sold some games each year because the distance made it too impractical and expensive to attend all of the games). So don't tell me I'm out just because I don't think being a season ticket holder is some sort of lifetime contract regardless of the team's priorities and product.
It's shameful the way you are dissing Raiders fans, as if you're the last fan standing. The reason the Raiders attendance numbers are dropping faster than any others? You say it's ALL about the character of the Raider Nation. Classy.
Gary also said: "I think Blanda makes a good point... is a free t-shirt REALLY going to get you to purchase season tickets again? Cmon."
We could build hay bales with all of the straw men being used to prop up ridiculous arguments like this.
Marketing = free t-shirts, free t-shirts = useless, therefore all marketing is useless.
This is what's passing for logic here these days.
This is worse than last year at this time.
The more the facts and results dispute your worldview, the cockier you get. Amazing.
"Very peculiar"
Yes it is, it is very strange that there seems to be such a high quotient of people on this site who spew the garbage that they do. It's like a disinfo campaign and why there is such a campaign is very strange indeed.
It is to the point of absurdity, the "crew" is hitting new depths every day. A whole batch of ya that just want to cause shit. You all run with no logic, nothing concrete to back it up. Just wall moving and strange twisting of facts to make insane points. It is the insane who back such absurdity, who continuosly write things wrong and pretend that they are right.
The "crew" are a study in stupidity and absurdity, question is, just like the Raiders, how low can you go? It really is the Raider version of "One flew over the nuthouse", Starring the "crew".
JONES
It is clear to EVERYONE on this board that serving up a winning product on the field is the best way to increase attendance, hands down.
The major differences of opinions revlove around HOW to increase the chances of winning AND the level of acceptance for the status quo.
Some will contend that the Raiders only need a few minor tweaks.
Some will pull out the "what if" card and use it conveniently to make silly claims based on shoddy, illogical reasoning.
Building a sound, competitive team requires vision, leadership, and execution by managment. I equate it to building a house.
While the Colts are using architects, engineers, expert craftsman, and computer technology to design and build their house, we are using crayons, scrap paper and a handyman to build our house. The finished products are quite dissimilar.
All I want is for Al to hire support executive(s) to help him improve the finished product (the team). Along those lines, I want Al, the staff, the players, and fans to be able to enjoy and be proud of the finished product.
No, not "very peculiar."
It's "most peculiar, mama."
Get it straight!
;^)
---Jeff
Strange days indeed Ark...and the "crew" is the strangest days of all. Every year, they bluster there way in on the off season and then go into hibernation when the season becomes a flop.....and like a rancid weed, the "crew" makes it's appearance the day after the season is over to start up their routine once again. It's time for a real good weed killer, to be applied before the end of the season. The "crew" is the disease and it must be exterminated.
JONES
Speaking of hibernation....check out this diddy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0whTcc60fkU&feature=related
JONES
"You call for change, but then defend Al Davis doing the same things over & over."
once again complete BS. quote me where i defend Al doing the same shit over and over. you won't and you can't. i defended Al against someone calling him a chickenshit. i'll keep defending that one, what that man has done for the game of football is unparalleled.
"How exactly are you on the same page as us ?"
i certainly am NOT on the same page as you. i don't talk shit about MY team in every post i make and then think to myself "i'm a big Raider fan, if only there were more like me!!" yeah right, hows that Turd Sandwich tasting? you get no further with your method than i do with mine. the difference between us is i realize my place in all of this and you seem to think yours is productive. how is that working out for ya? enjoying it are ya?
"It's either the status quo with Al Davis, or change without him. "
laughable. and complete BS. so what, you wanna fire Al? he owns the team brainiack. besides that ifand when hires a GM there would be change WITH Al. it's not status quo with him or change without him. he aint going anywhere, get used to the idea of him being around. come to grips with it or walk the plank. not even the other members of the turd sandwich crew believe this line of crap of yours.
frkyraider
>>>>
While the Colts are using architects, engineers, expert craftsman, and computer technology to design and build their house, we are using crayons, scrap paper and a handyman to build our house. The finished products are quite dissimilar.
>>>>
And yet if they hadn't hit the lottery with Peyton Manning, IMO they would be known as a perennial .500 team.
Pretty much like the Bronco's.
I tell you what... you take Indy's administration, and I will take Peyton Manning and put him in Al's adm... and we will see which organization does better!
>>
It's shameful the way you are dissing Raiders fans, as if you're the last fan standing.
>>>
Actually that's another RT fabrication. I didn't mention anything about MYSEALF until NY asked me about it.
>>>>
The reason the Raiders attendance numbers are dropping faster than any others? You say it's ALL about the character of the Raider Nation. Classy.
>>>>>
I read what people say here and in other forums... I see the attitude that this team is unfixable. I read what the people still going to games say about the attitude of the people that stopped going.
What do you want me to do? Sugar coat it? Funny you get pissed at me for doing that same thing in regards to Al.
Make up your mind.
>>>
The more the facts and results dispute your worldview, the cockier you get. Amazing.
>>>>
I'm not the one bragging about how right you are that the team will stink every year...
BTW... I bet there are lotsa "fans" that used to brag about how hopeless the Saints were going to be every year not so long ago.
I bet they are all pretending they never did it right now.
Just like you will erase this part of your history from your personal memory banks if the Raiders hit the playoffs next year!
... or the year after.
"Just like you will erase this part of your history from your personal memory banks if the Raiders hit the playoffs next year!
... or the year after."
Wish I could. Honestly though, it was still a nag at the back of my consciousness when Gruden was here. I felt like we were past it, but it was still an embarrassment.
JMHSO
---Jeff
Psycho back from the dead. For a minute...
I'm still on strike until I see a legit GM dammit. Someone get Ron Wolf on the phone so I can move on with my life!
Ya know, I'm looking at the Colts and P.Manning and I'm just wondering how we can get to that point. What if we had "Hit the lottery" and picked up Manning that year? Would he be able to elevate our Raiders to greatness once again, or would we fuck it up?
Sadly, I think we would find a way to fuck it up, I'm convinced. Indy has always given Manning stability to master his offense, and the freedom to do whatever he wants. They simply allow his greatness to happen and feed him tools to utilize along the way.
The Raiders, on the other hand, would be on at least their 4th or 6th coach during Manning's career and no doubt would've thrown up road blocks to slow him down with all the system changes and strange personnel moves. Manning wanted R.Wayne and he GOT R.Wayne, and has been content with just about everything Indy has thrown at him. I just don't see that happening around here. I think we have some coach who suddenly decides to run the ball 40 times a game. I think we spend all of our picks on speedy skill players rather than protecting Manning with O-linemen. I think the invincible Manning gets hit too many times and is no longer Iron Man. I think we end up franchizing him a few times and spoiling the relationship.
Not that we need to be exactly like Indy this is just for comparison purposes. I'm convinced that we have deeply seeded issues with this organization that stand between where we are now and winning Super Bowls.
Whatever Nnamdi is drinking he needs to pass it on to the other guys. We need about 52 more die-hard Raiders who are all willing to tolerate all the wierdness and pull together to WIN. Here we are in February, and our best and most loyal Raider does not know if his coach is still his coach. Something is horribly wrong with this picture. Do you think W.Brown was ever sitting on his couch in February, wondering if Madden was going to be around when he came into work? In this, the information age where we all walk about with the internet in our pockets and one-touch, non-rotary-phone dialing. I don't see how our team has grown so far appart over the years. I'm not asking them to get into bar fights every night with Cable drinking beer at the same table like Madden did. But fuck, shouldn't they be communicating a LITTLE BIT about how we're going to attack this thing next year?
"Hey Nnam hows it going man? Yeah we feel good about this O-coordinator. I'm going to let him call the plays and I'll focus more on the O-line protecting our $Billion$ head-up-his-ass QB so he has 7+ seconds to make better decisions. Defense doing OK? We gotta' lock up Richard and keep this thing moving. I gotta' see where Al is on that. Talk to Kirk?"
How many seconds did that take? I wonder what the FREE AGENT law firm of Morrison & Howard are thinking right about now. Kinda hard to stay loyal and resist $$ elsewhere when nobody is telling you who the coach will be and all that good stuff.
Psycho
It’s comical how Davis supporters carry this overtone in their dialog that the Raiders operate as if they’re a completely normal franchise.
How ridiculous is Gary’s challenge to Calico Jack that he take the Colts administration and Gary will take Peyton Manning under Al Davis... and “we’ll see who does better.”
Are you freakin’ kidding me? At least Psycho gave this nonsense some perspective.
Plain and simple; the Raiders operate at a huge disadvantage to virtually every team in the NFL.
The Raiders organization is devoid of structure; the GM will be age 81 when the next season starts; they have depleted scouting (which Davis personally directs along with his duties as owner and GM); they have a subservient head coach with diminished authority (like no other coach in the NFL); and they have an owner/GM who would “rather be right than consistent”... which would be fine except that, lately, he’s consistently wrong.
After seven years of losing and mismanagement, who here can say we have fewer holes to fill on the roster than we did six or seven years ago (when this disaster started)? Crickets.
So all the things that make other franchises mediocre most of the time, and very good or very bad some of the time, are missing with the Raiders. We just have that gene that makes us very bad all the time (facts are facts).
Great post NY..........Al Davis' top picks
2009 DHB Maryland WR
2008 Darren McFadden Arkansas RB
2007 JaMarcus Russell LSU QB
2006 Michael Huff Texas S
2005 Fabian Washington Nebraska CB
2004 Robert Gallery Iowa T
2003 Nnamdi Asomugha California CB
2002 Phillip Buchannon Miami CB
2001 Derrick Gibson Florida State S
2000 Sebastion Janikowski
Only 2 are worth a shit and one is a kicker. Now come on.....what is wrong with this picture. Throw in below Avg coaching and horrible front office...is it any wonder? and people defend this? Some call it "entertaining"? It's a whacky world we live in.
JONES
>>>
How ridiculous is Gary’s challenge to Calico Jack that he take the Colts administration and Gary will take Peyton Manning under Al Davis... and “we’ll see who does better.”
Are you freakin’ kidding me?
>>>
Uhh, no I am not.
Peyton Manning could arguably be the best QB to ever play in the NFL.
You don't think he would have carried some clout with Al? You don't think that would add at least 5 W's a year all this time?
Look how many close games PM pulls out of his ass over the years... now look at how many close games we lost the last 7 years.
If you challenge me, I will look it up for you.
Gee... and how come Asum keeps getting to speak his mind? How come Asum complains our defense is too predictable and the next week we begin blitzing like crazy?
And talk about kidding people? You don't think if Peyton Manning told Al he wanted Reggie Wayne he wouldn't turn every screw getting it done?
I'm sorry, but if so, you sir clearly don't follow Raider football.
If Al targets a player, Al GETS the player... its always been that way.
The problem is the players he's targeted lately have been non-QB's, and players like Sapp, Moss, Hall, and Walker.
With a Manning on board and in Al's ear... none of that happens.
Sorry bubs... you can roll the dice on a sound ADM... I'll "settle" for the best QB in NFL history.
I can't believe I even have to argue this!!
>>>
With a Manning on board and in Al's ear... none of that happens.
>>>
I take that back... Manning to Moss would have made the Raiders instant playoff contenders.
We just never had a QB that Moss trusted, so he QUIT.
Gary....can't say anything else, except...you are an idiot.
WTF are you talking about? IF Al had Peyton, IF Al had Wayne......IF the "crew" wasn't retarded. All ya gotta do is plug a player in there and that's IT, DONE, FIXED, ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED. I N S A N E.......
What about the front office problem? What about Defense Blitz well one game and then Marshall gets "yelled at" and then they go 3 games without Blitzing? What about Al's strategy of using 1970's defense? That announcers in the booth laugh at because of it's simple nature and how today's teams can pick it apart?
How bout Al overruling his HC and making him play players that he doesn't want to? How bout the OC having to deal with the owner telling him how the Offense will go? How about Al hiring below avg. coaches to coach (what IF) Peyton Manning?
And that is just a few, there is more Gary......you have to play with the WHOLE "what IF" picture....just picking out absurd points makes you look real dumb.
JONES
Moss quit because " strange things going on around here"...he knew it was a lost cause, he wasn't going to injure himself. The selfish player couldn't even be a man about it and play out as a professional. But, when millions are at stake....don't think I have ever seen a player quit on a team so blatantly as Moss did...it was crazy....just another day in Raiderville.
JONES
Yeah, with Art Shell and "Joe" Walsh coaching.....yeah, they would have killed.
JONES
Great, now I have Jones humping my leg.
Shhhhh... adults are talking!
Interesting on topic article today about Gannon claiming to change the Raider culture (keep in mind he came in a year AFTER St. Gruden arrived)
..quote...
On how he led the Raiders: "When I came to Oakland in 1999, I didn't
sign up to be the team jerk but I was taken aback by the things I was
seeing. Guys being late to meetings, guys missing practices. Sometimes,
something had to be said. ... You're never going to have 53 guys
committed. But if you have 45 or 48, you're gonna beat the team that has
25. When I first got to Oakland, I would say we were batting about .500.
Over a course of time, we brought in players like a Jerry Rice or a Rod
Woodson or a Tracy Armstrong and we were starting to head into the right
direction."
...end quote...
Seems to me if a journeyman QB could change a losing culture, the best QB in league history could too.
Gary, get off the Manning fantasy. Talk about humping someone's leg.
Having a player like Peyton Manning means having the scouting to identify him before he becomes the best QB to ever play the game.
JaMarcus Russell isn't exactly a close second to Manning (or any NFL QB)... and Darren McFadden isn't looking much like Adrian Peterson (a comparison McFadden made before he was drafted), except maybe the fumbling.
Peterson just made his third Pro Bowl, and McFadden can't even beat out Justin Fargas as full-time starter.
What are the chances that Davis fumbles the top pick again this year?
Raiders’ PR 101: right on topic and well presented by Monte Poole:
“With their approach in recent years and over the past month, it's as if the Raiders go out of their way to promote against their own interests.
That one of the team's all-time greats, Hall of Famer Willie Brown, announced his retirement not during a news conference but while sitting in his SUV suggests a level of negligence that is downright shameful.
Such self-crippling methods may not hurt good teams that play before sellout home crowds, but they're suicide for a losing team with retreating fans. Like the Raiders.
The Raiders can continue to operate this way only if they've gotten comfortable with their descent into irrelevancy, have lost interest in bonding with the community and are completely dismissive of the unsold tickets that led to seven TV blackouts.”
http://tinyurl.com/ydmbgax
FrkyRaider,
Once again, the same old smoke & mirror BS from you.
You should think about going into politics.
You don't talk shit about "Your" team. well, really, you do.
You have no problem calling out coaches or players.
It's just your man love crush on Al Davis that's off limits. It really hits a nerve when we say the truth about him.
I am also very aware that Al Davis is the owner. He keeps reminding everyone he is the owner by losing 11+ games every year.
When I say "status quo with Al Davis or change without him", it is my OPINION...CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS.
Al Davis cannot work with his HC's(Notice how he hires & fires'em so fast?).
What makes anyone think Al can work with a GM ?
Al has been searching for just the right hand puppet(hey, maybe you should apply Frky) for 2 years. . Now that is laughable.
For you to throw yourself up as some kind of better fan then me, makes you sound as insane as Al.
All you are is an Al Davis fan and a happy loser.
Hey Frky, let us know when Al finds that savior of a GM. Any day now, right ? Keep a candle in the window you big, ol gullible fool.
"Shhhhh... adults are talking!"
Oh man...can these guys get any lower? They are the bottom of the barrel, lowest of the low...it's embarrassing to have Raider fans who carry on like these dweebs. Gary you couldn't write like an adult if I scored you 30 years experience....you write like someone who has no experience in life, no experience in business and no experience in evaluating football franchises. Another words, you need a lot of catching up to do, some advice, stop twittling your diddly and get a clue.
JONES
Wow. Is saying people have little dicks a new low?
I used to get a 'crew' cut every summer as a small child during the mid 70's. This was around the same time I picked the Raiders as my favorite team. Can't really say 'became a fan', because I really wasn't 'fanatical' about football at an early age (4-5yrs). But they were chosen (or was I?), and I have never strayed since.
-moshbucket
Raider00,
"When I say "status quo with Al Davis or change without him", it is my OPINION...CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS."
you can't even keep your own BS straight. it's becomeing a part time job just to keep you from BSing over your own BS!!!
here is your previous statement to me.
"You can't stick your toe in the water and claim to be Michael Phelps.
It's either the status quo with Al Davis, or change without him.
No fence sitting. Just pick one baby."
that sounds like your telling me to pick one does it not? doesn't sound like your opinion. sounds like your telling me that i have to choose to either support the status quo or i have to support getting rid of Al. do i have this right?
i don't have to make a choice like that. the reality is Al isn't going anywhere. NOT BY MY CHOICE. but by his own. i don't have a say in this. i have expressed my opinion that i would like to hire a GM. whether he does or not won't change my support for the Raiders. I AM A RAIDERS FAN!!! REGAURDLESS OF WHO OWNS EM, WHO COACHES EM, WHAT THEIR RECORD IS THIS SEASON AND WHO IS THE STARTING QB, or any other senerio or personel decision you can come up with. unless of coarse we're going back to the Al Davis raped my mother thing, then i'd have some soul searching to do.
FYI, that last part was sarcasm for those too stupid to recognize it when they read it.
frkyraider
rotflmao!!!
" Another words, you need a lot of catching up to do, some advice, stop twittling your diddly and get a clue.
JONES"
you mean "in other words, you HAVE alot of catching up to do." right?
Hello pot, this is the kettle, guess what, YOUR BLACK!!!
too funny. you guys are a riot!!
frkyraider
Did I say someone has a little dick? No I didn't...why must you guys resort to misquoting? Balanda has taught you well. You can't get your stories straight, can't get your quote straight...the picture is crystal clear......can't have a "debate" with those who don't fly straight. If you want to be a bird with one wing...have at er and good luck.
JONES
Freak, way ahead of you...so are most 5th graders. I'm not bragging because there are plenty ahead of me..but it isn't you, freak, or any of the "crew". You guys need to get to the back of the bus....and stay quiet or others might have to come back there...you don't want that to happen.
JONES
i think we finally have hit on something we agree about Jones!
halla-freakin-luia!!! i feel the same way.
frkyraider
oops, we're off the tracks again. i was responding to your 6:15 post. that one i agree with. i knew it couldn't last long.
oh well, back to the insults and name calling from ya.
frkyraider
your way ahead of me? yeah ok son. and was that a threat of violence from you to me boy? come on up this a way, i'll meet ya under the space needle and give ya the spanking you have so rightly deserved for so long now. so you just name the time sonny, i'll be there!!
frkyraider
Is there anything more juevenille than 'internet tough-guys'?
I enjoy debating the merits of players, coaches, GMs, drafts, and general FOOTBALL related topics.
However the latest train of thought has reached a new low in intelligent stimulation.
Thanks but no thanks.
This back and forth grade school name calling is really ridiculous. Can the subject be changed to at least the draft?
With that said, some one extremely close to me does business with the nfl team in our city. The contract now includes a non payment for services clause if there was a strike or lock out. This has been added because the team anticipates a lock out.
It seems the players and owners are at a serious impasse and at this point it will be lock out.
"Is there anything more juevenille than 'internet tough-guys'?"
yeah not really my style either CJ, thats why you've never read any thing like that from me before, ecspecially here with all the name calling and other hoopla goin on. but when threatened by a cyberbully with violence i will call him out into the real world. the response was just as i suspected....crickets.
frkyraider
Freak...I'll be at the space needle in 20 minutes from now...if you aren't there in 20 minutes......any ways, if you do want to meet me there, I'll be there in 20 minutes...run, hurry up or I just might beat up some other shithawk fan. No really freak...if you wanna go, 20 minutes....I'll be the guy on the street right beside the space needle...I think it's called spaceneedle RD, I could be wrong though...I'll be the guy yelling " program, get your program here"...I might act like I don't know what is going on, so just keep punching anyways...
JONES
Hey freak...that's 2 times now that I have made you "freak" out...too funny. And you respond with "I'm not normally like this but......" TOO FUNNY. I think you normally are like this, you aren't stable, you need help...go, run to the space needle, I'm almost there.
JONES
FrkyRaider,
Let me make myself clear so even you can understand.
As far as I can see, this arguement breaks down into 3 camps.
1) Fans who want Al Davis to hire a GM and work with the man.
I believe this is wishful thinking. Al Davis cannot coexist with his HC's. He will not coexist with his GM's either.
2) Fans who are happily waiting for Al to find his elusive GM.(I believe you are in this camp Frky).
To me, this is just a thinly veiled way to support Al Davis and the status quo without really coming out and saying it.
3) Fans(like me), who believe Al should hire a GM, and LEAVE THE MAN ALONE.
Al is 80 yrs old. he's done it all. there's nothing left to prove. the only thing he is proving, is that he can't build a winner anymore.
Hello, Al is destroying his legacy. If you don't believe me, just check out the Raiders record since Al went into the Hall of Fame in 1992. Hardly a commitment to excellence.
Of course Al will remain the owner. but he should be hands off, aside from hiring the best people available to make the Raiders great again.
Once again Frky, this is all OPINION. I may be wrong, but at the epic, record rate the Raiders are piling up games lost, I don't think so.
Well said Raider 00.
I guess I might be splitting hairs or my 'practical' gene is working overdrive but ...
I would like to suggest another camp which is a hybrid between 1 and 3.
I would like Davis to handle all the repsonsibilities normally associated with NFL Owners and be an advisor to the GM with the GM having final authority on football related matters.
In other words, in order to utilize Davis vast football knowledge and pay professional courtesy, I would want the newly hired GM to keep Davis in the communicatin loop but the GM ultimately would make the final decisions on football matters with Davis input when appropriate.
The above scenario is how the vast majority of NFL teams conduct business. The GM has final authority on football matters but has constant communication and counsel from the owner when necessary.
It's sad that as fans we have to lower our bar of organizational expectations. At this point in time, I would be happy for Davis to get ANY executive support to get us back on track.
Okay, this place is jumping the shark. If you're not familiar with the phrase, check it out on Wikipedia.
We need to hit the reset button.
The standard of logic and level of discourse on Raider Take has reached record lows in recent weeks.
We are becoming just another shrill chatroom.
People will say, well, it's your blog, fix it. No, sorry, I can't do that.
I'm not going to censor or otherwise try to control the conversation.
That's not how this place was built.
This place is, and always will be, social experiment, a community of independent voices, ever evolving, and hopefully more thoughtful than the norm. This isn't my place. It's our place.
We all (myself included) need to raise our games. Maybe that means hitting the "publish" button less frequently, I don't know.
If 1 + 2 = 4, then something's wrong. Please give that some thought.
I really don't have the answer to what's going on here, I'm just asking the question: where do we go from here?
Maybe we need to go to collective therapy, or maybe we need a group hug. Who knows.
All I can ask is that we (including me) make a little more effort to restore a higher standard of dialogue.
Thank you for listening to this public service announcement.
Raider00,
now THAT was well said, except of coarse the part where you say "so even you can understand". but i do have to say that you said it well enuff to understand that it was YOUR opinion and not trying to corner me into some Al Davis bootlicker role, but whatever.
i think that i am more for what CJ suggested than anything else.
and i quote,
"In other words, in order to utilize Davis vast football knowledge and pay professional courtesy, I would want the newly hired GM to keep Davis in the communicatin loop but the GM ultimately would make the final decisions on football matters with Davis input when appropriate."
i believe this is what i've been saying i wanted all along, CJ just words it better than i do. i think with the reality of Davis not going away like sooo many want, that this is the best case senerio for the reality we have.
frkyraider
Well, things are already looking up around here, well played, gents.
Thank you Frky.
Thank you CJ.
Thank you RT.
you are all fine gentlemen.
RT, goin' East Coast with "Jumping the Shark."
TV Guide paid an underling from the Howard Stern Show $1.0 million for the rights to that phrase.
To your point, perhaps we are becoming as dysfunctional as the Raiders. Their culture is rubbing off on us.
Beat up freaky at the space needle, so that's the plan to fix the raiders! I think you should try the 'Kurt Cobain' plan, since you're up in that neck of the woods.
"because they have a small......or something"
You didn't post that??? Funny how you knew exactly who I was talking about. I guess the "......" is for plausible deniability?
"Crew" meeting at the space needle!! That's just to funny. I can picture you bowin' up like Early Cuyler!! PRICELESS!!!!
-moshbucket
200 - Have a great weekend guys.
No news is like, no news. And, it's getting boring beating all these dead horses.
H
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