A Non-Take Take
Well, there's no offseason here at Raider Take, and y'all have been filling up the comment section rather rapidly. And since I haven't fixed the problem with viewing comments past the 200 mark, I needed to start another thread, even thought I don't really have a new take. So here we go...may the debate and discourse continue!
posted by Raider Take at 9:47 PM
205 Comments:
A classic "what if" that would seem to have been the best case scenario but didn't materialize for whatever unknown reasons:
What if ... Al Davis hired a GM/Asst. GM a few years ago?
The vast majority of Raider fans wanted (1) Davis to go out on top (2) get the much needed assistance in his later years (3) make the transition even more seamless.
Now that Davis has passed (R.I.P.), the best way forward is for the Raiders to return to glory.
The best way to honor Davis' legacy, vast achievements and contributions is for the Raiders to return to their winning ways and ultimately win more Super Bowls. After all, the team is still owned by the Davis family.
only time will tell calico...
we fans can discuss the past and speculate about the future but it will take time to see what this new management and coaching staff is capable of. this is a very important offseason. i look forward to our future.
scorpio...
Exactly!!!...There's NO track record now except letting coaches go and trying to fill out the 2012-13 staff...Nothing to base a single prediction on except shallow words spoken in jest of how things will hopefully/desirably proceed...
Speculation is all there is at this point so trying to project that your absolutely right and someone else is wrong is based in pure stupidity while everything is open to question without restraint until results are manifested on that "Grid Iron"!!...Than and only than with there be anything substantiated or proven...PERIOD!!!
This was a damn good move so why the hell do you keep questioning it???
Both before and after the decision was made!!!
We now have reason to believe the "O" will improve instead of just regressing!!!
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Jerry McDonald - Pleasant surprise that Al Saunders returns to Raiders. He'll be a resource for blending Knapp's version of WC system for downfield passing 02-08
Saunders, who joined the Raiders as offensive coordinator last season under Hue Jackson, will serve as senior offensive assistant, providing a sounding board for offensive coordinator Greg Knapp as the club puts together an approach built around quarterback Carson Palmer.
Knapp's background has its roots in a West Coast type offensive system that utilizes quarterback rollouts and bootlegs and a predominantly zone blocking style of offense.
Saunders' coaching tree, which dates back to Don Coryell and the San Diego Chargers, stressed more of a downfield type of passing attack. With Palmer being more suited for dropback passing than throwing on the move, Saunders can be of assistance in blending the two systems.
I'm quite sure Reggie and Allan know a damn site more than any poster on this board and have a damn good idea of where this team is going and how to get it there...So show a little freakin faith is their decisions and stop pimping yourself as the "Master of Thought" which you are NOT!!!!
Now this is something that I hope Reggie has an eye on!!!
What’s the move for Vincent Jackson?
Vincent Jackson has had an acrimonious relationship with the Chargers throughout most of his seven seasons in San Diego, one that could be coming to an end.
Negotiations were expected to begin this month between the Chargers and Jackson, who said at the Pro Bowl the two sides had yet to talk contract details. While Jackson maintains he would like to stay in San Diego, and GM A.J. Smith is reportedly now “comfortable” exploring a long-term deal, NFL Network insider Jason La Canfora isn’t betting on it.
“I don’t see any way he’s back there,” La Canfora said Tuesday on “NFL Total Access.”
“The Chargers won’t franchise him, they’ve come out and said that.”
Addition by subtraction would be damn nice regarding "VJ"!!!
I guess I may as well start pimping it now...
Remember This:
Blogger PantyRaider said...
Doubt your man enough to "Put Up Or Shut Up" but I will wager that Mr Davis makes a splash in "FA" this season....
Clarification:
At least one big name player if not 2....
Projected Possibilities:
"QB"s...Vince Young/Carson Palmer
"WR"s...Vincent Jackson/Plaxaco Burris
"OT"....________________________
"OLB"...________________________
"Sup-Draft"...Slash Pryor
My boy was already named so this ain't some new spirit I'm running with!!!
PantyRaider...Officially The "VJ" Pimp!!!/_
SCALR8R,
That would be Positive Polly. Gotta keep the first letters the same.
Calico,
“The best way to honor Davis' legacy, vast achievements and contributions is for the Raiders to return to their winning ways and ultimately win more Super Bowls. After all, the team is still owned by the Davis family.”
I echo those sentiments. And, just as the player he plucked from the ash-heap of NFL castoffs quarterbacked the team to two Super Bowl wins, it would be poetic justice of his last draft pick did the same, or better.
Speaking of which. Some in the media are already measuring Eli Manning for his HOF gold jacket because he has won two Super Bowl rings.
If two is the standard, what about Jim Plunkett? His personal and professional story are the stuff of Hollywood movies. Hell, he had more scholarship offers to play linebacker than quarterback. His career stats are every bit as good as Joe Namath’s. Then there’s Ken Stabler whose career stats are better than Joe Namath.
It is clear that there is an east coast bias when it comes to NFL quarterbacks. Y. A. Tittle is recognized most for his play with the Giants. He did most of his work with the Forty-Whiners.
H
"H"...
Regarding Plunket's Story...Even after retiring it was interesting...
Don't know if you heard this but at some point after Jim retired he put his "SB" ring in a Booty Pouch that he forgot in his car..Rag Top...When he got back the Booty Pouch was gone and so was the ring...He waited some 20 years for it to find it's way back...
The thief only wanted $$$ so looked for that and threw the bag in some bushes...Years later when a new owner purchased the home he hired a gardener to clean up the shrubs/bushes in front of the house...That's when the old lost/stolen bag was found...Inside was a "SB" ring...The gardener noticed the year and team and looked up to see whose it was..."MVP" on it I believe???...He than contacted the team to let them know he had found it and wanted it to return to Plunkett...NO $$$$...Just wanted to give it back...Jim related the story during a game that season...
Pretty kool if you ask me...There are still a few honest folks left in this society after all!!!
Wouldn't want to bank on most doing what that gardener did though???
...an honest man, be him a season ticket holder, casual observer, or someone who just lives on the take here would be very accurate in saying The Raiders have, more or less, sucked since the super bowl collapse. Any change at this point is good, because nothing else has worked, and the worst thing could happen is they would still suck. Let's face it, change could be good! This isn't optimistic either, it's cause and effect. If you remain optimistic, you get to actually enjoy the ride.
...great story Panty. Very offseasosn, I like it.
Well I give up!!!
Spent a half hour looking for that story and this is all I could find...
http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/2005-archives/37518-long-lost-super-bowl-ring-found.html
Panty,
That may be one of the few stories I have not heard.
Oak Town,
A perfectly reasonable way to look at it. I, for one, remain optimistic. If I turn pessimistic then I cannot justify the $$$ I spend each year on NFL Sunday Ticket and my DVR. When the turnaround happens I don’t want to miss it.
Change can be a good thing. Heck, I change my underwear almost every day. That’s a good thing. Right?
H
This is interesting. It's a breakdown of some of the most expensive contracts the Raiders will face in 2012.
http://tinyurl.com/7dkdu6j
Several players were re-signed last year at huge pay increases. However, two of the biggest salaries are courtesy of Hue Jackson, i.e., Aaron Curry and Carson Palmer.
It makes sense that the Raiders would release a couple of these guys and restructure a couple others to make room for free agent signings. I think Chris Johnson might be done with football.
H... funny! Yep... very healthy perspective, and a change of, um, panties never hurts! LOL!!!! :-!
H... funny! Yep... very healthy perspective, and a change of, um, panties never hurts! LOL!!!! :-!
Having that shiny new "GM" does NOT guarantee that high profile top tier coaches will want to come to OakTown...
This:
Raiders | Todd Bowles turned down DC job
Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:10:24 -0800
Philadelphia Eagles defensive backs coach Todd Bowles said he turned down the opportunity to become the Oakland Raiders' defensive coordinator and decided to take the job with the Eagles.
Are you saying the Raiders haven't yet completely washed their hands of the dysfunction that predates McKenzie's hire?
Or couldn it have anything to do with the fact that Dennis Allen is a defense-minded HC, and perhaps Bowles would rather have more freedom to run his own defense under an offense-minded HC?
P.S. Not sure I would rank Bowles a high-profile, top tier coach.
WOW! We released Stanford Route! This must be Reggie's first warning shot. I like it!
Roy
After cutting Routt I am guessing overpaid players such as Heyward-Bey, Seymour and McClain must be thinking long and hard about restructuring their deals. This is a great sign to me that we are no longer going to pay role players like super stars.
What a novel concept!
Roy
Culture change, culture shock. Sign me up.
Not sad to see Routt go... his habitual hooking of his off arm around the body helped him lead the league in penalties (and all but a few of them were easy calls, so no Raider bias here).. plus led all CB's in td's allowed.
Sounds like Huff is next, whom I've ALWAYS considered a bum. Couldn't tackle and had no football instincts.. no wonder the defense always gave up so many big plays since he arrived.
Jmac and Cork always seemed to like Huff for some reason... I never saw it... just because his replacement Boyd made Huff look good.. that isn't saying much. Boyd should never have been on any NFL teams roster to begin with!
Wow! I just posted earlier that I expect some big salaried players to be released, but releasing Routt, if true, is somewhat unexpected. Perhaps leading the team (and probably the league) in penalties had something to do with it.
The Raiders are a now performance-based organization... I love it!
Everybody, fasten your seat belts!
Routt... what a payday. Walks w. 20MM... guess it beats coughing up another 30.
This is a new era in Raider's football!!!
Like this move a ton.
Next Man Up?
Big Rich!
routt got CUT because HE SUCKS!
that guy had 99% of the penalties all to himself! glad to see it!
Here's the list of big salaries I posted a link to earlier:
TE Kevin Boss: due $2 million
RG Cooper Carlisle: due $3 million
LB Aaron Curry: due $5.76 million
FS Hiram Eugene: due $2.25 million
DT John Henderson: due $4 million
WR Darrius Heyward-Bey: entering fourth year of five-year, $38.25-million deal with $23.5 million guaranteed
FS Michael Huff: due $16 million over next three years
CB Chris Johnson: due $3.5 million
DT Tommy Kelly: due $6 million
P Shane Lechler: due $3.8 million
MLB Rolando McClain: entering third year of five-year, $40-million deal with $23 million guaranteed
RB Darren McFadden: due $5.65 million
QB Carson Palmer: due $12.5 million, with $5 million guaranteed
CB Stanford Routt: due $5 million, plus another $5 million "signing bonus"
DT Richard Seymour: due $7.5 million, plus another $7.5 million roster bonus
LB Kamerion Wimbley: entering second year of five-year, $48 million contract, with $29 million guaranteed.
The huge roster bonus due Seymore looks suspect; however,some of the guaranteed contracts are tough to work around.
The battery of Palmer and McFadden are ones I probably wouldn't screw with, and Lechler is the best punter in the league.
Surpised to see Routt cut. But, he really had some poor games this past year and whatever they have to do to improve the D is fine by me.
I agree with NYR and think the player with the biggest chance of getting cut is Seymour. Not sure how the 7.5M roster bonus effects the cap, but if I'm McKenzie and looking and wanting to get some cap room, that bonus is awfully tempting.
Not only his bonus but his play over the last four games deserve a big look-at in terms of him staying on the roster.
Of course the quesiton then becomes, who to you replace these guys with since we don't pick until like the 8th round or so. (OK that last part may be a bit of an exaggeration).
Plenty of players, especially on the defensive side of the ball, are primary targets for restructuring and/or out-right cuts.
I would surmise that McKenzie and Allen are going to free up cap dollars to be aggressive in the tier 2 free agent market.
It would make sense to overhaul the D and fill the roster with young, fairly inexpensive defensive players that would fit in nicely with Allen's vision on D.
LB Aaron Curry: due $5.76 million
(candidate for restructure)
FS Hiram Eugene: due $2.25 million
(candidate for cut or restructure)
DT John Henderson: due $4 million
(candidate for cut)
FS Michael Huff: due $16 million over next three years
(candidate for restructure or cut)
CB Chris Johnson: due $3.5 million
(candidate for cut)
DT Tommy Kelly: due $6 million
(candidate for restructure)
DT Richard Seymour: due $7.5 million, plus another $7.5 million roster bonus
(candidate for restructure or cut)
LB Kamerion Wimbley: entering second year of five-year, $48 million contract, with $29 million guaranteed.
(candidate for restructure)
Later Routt. If poor performance and bloated salaries = getting cut, the Raiders may not have enough guys to field a team! I love it.
"The battery of Palmer and McFadden are ones I probably wouldn't screw with, and Lechler is the best punter in the league."
**********************************
I think all bets are off.
Raiders have not made playoffs in 10 yrs. Always fading in december, and 4th quarter.
No one is safe !!!!! Only the warrior, winners, will be left standing.
Mcfadden ? I would deal him for a top ten pick. otherwise, no.
Palmer ? If Jets or Skins would part with a 1st rounder, ship Palmer out, and start over at Qb.
Lechler ? True, one of the best punters in NFL. But maybe can find someone, almost as good, for a lot less money.
Off season just heating up. Should be fun.
Is Reggie sending a message or what? INSTANTLY, he shows the players who is boss. It shows the players that are making too much, ...if you don't want to help the team and just want the cash...your gone.
It instantly shows who is for the team and who isn't, power move by the GM. The country club is over, this guy means business and he isn't going to accept anything less than 100% commitment from his staff right down to the beer vender. If you aren't on board, then you are going somewhere else. BOOM, wake up call for the team. It's like Chef Ramsey showed up and it's cleanup time. F*$#@& H%^! WTF is going on here......?
JONES
Seymour has done jack diddly other than a few top notch games. A 1st Rounder that could of been a big asset was wasted, not to mention the money. Palmer should give more in return than Seymour or else it will go down as one of the worst trades ever.
Palmer will have a good year, he has been craving a stable franchise to be involved with since being drafted. I think he will like being a leader on this team. He has the weapons and Reggie might add another starter at WR, building depth there. Reggie must know something as far as aquiring a Corner, and Routt being a Mr.Davis pet, takes the fall. Reggie just shot a missle right over their heads. He ain't F*%@#$ around.
JONES
New @ Raiders.com.....
Shame there wasn't a way to get something out of Routt in a trade but that was prolley not much of an option with his salary...
There is still the possibility that we bring him back at a reduced price if not signed elsewhere???
We now have NO veteran "CB"s worth keeping..."CJ" is dust and Sheppard was serviceable...
But before you start pimping all that "New Era" Crap let your simple headed minds drift back to the off season 2011 when Namndi was NOT retained and all of you went threw the roof crying "Foul" on Mr Davis...Remember???...But now it's a very shrewd move to save "Cap Space" because Al Davis was NOT involved???
But Al Davis started the process and now Reggie is following threw!!!
How all the adverse "Mental Midgets" love to forget!!!
Jerry McDonald - RT @RAIDERS: The Raiders have added two assistants to the coaching staff, assistant special teams coach Keith Burns and linebackers coac ... 02-09
Raiders | Johnny Holland hired
Thu, 09 Feb 2012 14:54:13 -0800
Updating a previous report, the Oakland Raiders have hired former Houston Texans linebackers coach Johnny Holland as their linebackers coach.
Raiders | Tim Krumrie candidate for DL coaching job
Thu, 09 Feb 2012 13:46:28 -0800
The Oakland Raiders are considering former Kansas City Chiefs defensive line coach Tim Krumrie for their defensive line coaching position.
..."But Al Davis started the process and now Reggie is following threw!!!
...
Is that what Reggie said at the Press Conference? That he was just following through with Mr.Davis' plan? What world you in today, Chip Douglas? Did your mommy leave you with the TV while she went out and got laid? You were brought up by the Brady Family? You learned the facts of life ...from watching the Facts of Life?
I seem to remember Mark saying that the different direction of the Org started the day Mr.Davis died. I also seem to remember Reggie saying that it is a new day for the Oakland Raiders. Mark also said that his Dad didn't leave him any detailed instructions. Once again, bring in...Larry Tate.
JONES
Im trying to think of even one player that I would get overly pissed off about losing on defense... thats how horrible they all played at times this past season.
Prolly Shaunassy and (FA) Branch? Maybe Wimbeley... but if he doesn't restructure... see ya!!
McClain : Horrible so far.
Huff : overrated at best
Seymour: team leader but nothing much on the actual playing field.
Kelly: Sack leader... he'd prolly be hard to replace.
Houston.. young enough to keep around.
CJ: career prolly over
Curry: Interesting player.. but one dimensional
Henderson: Prolly retired
Chekwa: Unknown, showed flashes of greatness,
I dunno... I'm guessing SIX new starters next year on defense?
Routt was made the NFL's third-highest paid CB last offseason with a new contract. What process was that starting?
The D will be going through some significant personnel and identity changes.
Older players who are average performers and earning major bank and former scholarship type players will be packing their bags.
I would look for McKenzie to work the undrafted free agency group, waiver wire, draft, and 2nd tier free agency list to add young, hungry inexpensive players who will fit into an aggressive, attacking D.
Houston, Shaunnessey, Branch, IMO, are guys that would fit the profile of the type of defenders that will stick with the new D.
The "funny" money thrown at Wimbley last offseason will be a thing of the past.
5 yr/$48M contract, $29M guaranteed?
R U kidding me.
IMO, Raiders always tried too hard and paid too much to retain their own marginal talent... and they way overpaid for top tier players, some of whom came with serious baggage.
McKenzie's already revealing his skills for evaluating personnel and restructuring the team.
I can’t wait to see what’s next!
"RT"...
The #1 Highest Paid "CB" was dropped while you were one of the criers so don't try to pimp it now that you were down with the $$$$ cutting if Al Davis was involved!!!
We all pretty much knew that Routt deal was a one year transaction to fill a void until the rookies were ready...Or at least many of us already understood that including your "J-Mac" who speculated as much!!!
I would say don’t get too “Cap Hack Happy” if you intend to bring new top talent on board down the road….They won’t want to play for the “Cheap Bastards”!!!…But there does need to be a happy medium between that and the “Big Spender”!!!
"RT"...
I'm also going to remind you that your "Clan" was doing all the crying over the loss of both Zack -n- Gallery as well even though it was shaving $$$$ of the Cap!!!
Their replacement came in cheaper...Namely Boss -n- "Wiz-II" as a 2nd rd pick!!!
Not only that but come draft day we will reap a potential 3rd or 2-3rds for their losses which can now be used to acquire some cheaper talent!!!
So check yourself before you try to reach back and pat that back!!!
Some don't forget!!!
Regarding that list NYRaider provided. Here’s some opinions of mine.
Kevin Boss – We don’t know how he will work because he was under used. When he was he did well. Two million is not overly problematic. But, it was a mistake letting Zach Miller get away.
Cooper Carlisle – He had a better year in ’11, but is getting a little long in the tooth for his position. Most likely a cut.
Aaron Curry – Should renegotiate. Lower base, but put some performance bonus in it to light a fire under him.
John Henderson – Worth keeping another year, but not at four million. Probably a cut.
DHB – Had the best year for a Raider wide receiver in quite some time. I’d bring him in and renegotiate to drop his cap value. Maybe a two year extension at a lower base. The guy will work his butt off.
Chris Johnson – Let him go.
Michael Huff – We need some corner help. I’d give him a shot at corner but at a lower rate. He has the speed, and he has been the primary nickel back. Plus, in the right scheme he can be a force putting pressure on the quarterback. He had four sacks and a bunch of pressures under Marshall.
Shane Lechler – He’s the best, leave him alone.
Tommy Kelly – Inconsistent, renegotiate.
Rolondo McClain – If we are going to use a hybrid 3-4/4-3 keep him. That’s what made him an All-American in college. Just don’t ask him to cover the other teams best receiver.
Richard Seymour – He’s still playing at a fairly high level, and a good leader. But, that’s too high of a roster bonus.
Kamerion Wimbley – he thrived under Marshall. Fell off under Bresnahan. Keep him, but stop sending him out in pass coverage. He’s still overpaid though.
McFadden is the player with the most trade value. I would test the waters to see what interest there is.
A lot of work to be done before, what is it this year, I think March 7th. There's a lot of big time cap hits to just release folks willy-nilly. Plus, who are you going to bring in.
I would start with Seymour. If he's willing to take one for the team, others might fall in line. I would also go to Palmer. He's the one that said it wasn't about money. Step up to the plate fella' so they can get you some help.
“McClain : Horrible so far”
I wouldn’t say horrible. Slightly above average, maybe. Five sacks and second on the team in tackles this year. But, there is a ton of room for improvement. The overall performance of the defense was bad, so it’s tough to lay that kind of label on him. We were saying bust about DHB and he had a pretty solid year.
JMNLHO
H
Panty,
Losing Zach Miller was a mistake. It's very hard to replace that kind of talent at tight end.
Seattle threw all that money at him then didn't throw the ball to him.
Al Saunders offensive career has included some time spent with a few top knotch tight ends, including Kellen Winslow and Tony Gonzalez. He also had Chris Cooley in Washington.
More production from the tight end makes everyone else better.
We could use Miller at the moement.
Hopefully, they will give Boss, or one of the others, an expanded role.
H
Calico, Scopio - Here, here.
Blanda
Don't know if Seymour gets cut, that depends on the language in his contract.
I think Wimbley, Tommy Kelly, DHB, Carlisle, and Henderson will most likely be cut.
Like Routt, we overpaid for Wimbley and Kelly; and neither one have really lived up to the contract, and because of their contracts, they aren't trade worthy. Henderson has been injured, and has no value to trade with. Carlisle may have trade value, but again his contract comes into question as he continues to age. DHB, well, he showed promise last year. I think he has started working hard with Palmer, and he knew that once Al died there was no security because nobody wanted to pay that much. I think we cut him, and try to restructure his contract. Maybe that is what we are doing with Routt.
Top CB Free agents:
Carlos Rogers (SF)and Cortland Finnegan (Ten), but from the looks of it, they won't spend big $$.
Let's look at some reasonable CBs that we may pick up:
Jarrett Bush (GB)
Brandon Flowers (KC)
Aaron Ross (NYG)
Walter McFadden (Pit, cut last week)
This is going to be interesting!
I'm not quite sure how I feel about Routt. He's a talented corner, but he's no Nhamdi. Nhamdi knew how to avoid the PI calls. But a lot of the PIs I saw called against Routt were no such thing.
And this brings up the penalty situation. My position is, and has been this. After Jack Tatum wrote They Call Me Assassin and after Chuck Noll called the Raiders a "criminal element" in the NFL, the NFL ordered refs to throw the flag for any questionable Raider play they saw.
After that, Raider fans and sometimes players began to complain about the over penalization and started accusing officials of bias. After that, and through the subsequent history, officials started to watch the Raiders closely and threw every flag they could reasonably justify so they'd have an answer to the bias charge. The result of that is to continue to throw more flags against the Raiders than anyone else.
My problem is that the officials look the other way with most teams on the more minor infractions, in order to "let the teams play." They grant the Raiders no such leeway.
With different coaches, players, and systems there is no way the Raiders can be repeatedly the most penalized team. We know how hard Jackson worked on the problem, so it just defies any logic.
With the death of Davis and the subsequent reorganization, I'm not sure what the penalty situation will bring this year. But if I'm right about the above, there will be no change. It will continue.
Another course of speculation is that it was bias specifically against Al Davis. If that is true, the Raiders will do a miraculous turn around in penalties this year.
The Raider Defensive scheme has been a MLB killer for a long time. McClain will do better under a new system. Many times I saw his frustration at what was being asked of him. The new coaching staff will have to build his confidence back, but he is still young, so that can be done.
Wimbley is going to have to take a cut or he will be cut. What was Mr.Davis was thinking when he gave him that contract? Henderson ain't a 4 mill player, Curry will be a special teams player if he takes a cut. If not, I see him going too.
Branch needs to stay, Huff needs to take a cut. Huff also needs to get out of the 'night life' BS and get his freakin head in the game. COMMITMENT, something these guys better learn quickly, or they will be close to the end of their careers. Oakland isn't a playground anymore, no more going to Vegas, no more Playboy mansion. You get paid for YEAR ROUND COMMITMENT, if you aren't willing, go somewhere else...I hear Cincy still runs that type of team....
JONES
I am VERY wary of all this restructuring contracts as any tyoe of solution to anything. Thats the same shit that got us in deep doo doo with Gruden/Allen! AFter all the veterans left we were spending all that money on people we kicked the can down the road on, which left us nothing for the current players and free agents.
I think restructuring should ONLY be for players you plan on building the team around for the next 3 to 5 years.. not players like Seymour and Henderson that you are just hoping to get one good year out of. If Wimbley and Huff are "THE GUYS" then go ahead and restructure. If not, cut bait now and move on.
Most players don't restructure unless there is more guaranteed money to sweeten the pot, so if we get rid of them soon, its just less money for other players.
Lets just bring in new players on defense and just roll the dice. No way it could get much worse...
My Take:
TE Boss: due $2 million; Keep
RG Carlisle: due $3 million Keep
LB Aaron Curry: due $5.76 million; I think it's too much for an underachieving role player, who doesn't perform on a consistent basis; would bring back for but only for less $$
FS Hiram Eugene: due $2.25 million; Keeper; Hopefully stays healthy
DT John Henderson: due $4 million; Cut
WR Heyward-Bey: $38.25-million deal with $23.5 million guaranteed; While his hands are improved, i still don't regard him as a #1 Receiver; cut
FS Michael Huff: due $16 million over next three years; Has not turned into the player we envisioned at the top of round 1 but need to keep and hopefully coach up
CB Chris Johnson: due $3.5 million; serviceable; keep
DT Tommy Kelly: due $6 million; overpaid; but worth keeping; needs to be more consistent
P Shane Lechler: due $3.8 million; Keep-Most Defenses in the league would take advantage of pinning the O inside the 5
MLB Rolando McClain: entering third year of five-year, $40-million deal with $23 million guaranteed; Got to give another year to see if he starts to turn into the player we envisioned and invested in
RB Darren McFadden: due $5.65 million; Keep but possible trade for a stud difference maker on D
QB Carson Palmer: due $12.5 million, with $5 million guaranteed; Keep but open to trading and keeping Campbell
CB Stanford Routt: due $5 million, plus another $5 million "signing bonus"-Cut; Last year I would've kept Nanmdi instead
DT Richard Seymour: due $7.5 million, plus another $7.5 million roster bonus-Keep; He is driven to be a Leader although the annual "punching of opponents" needs to stop
LB Kamerion Wimbley: entering second year of five-year, $48 million contract, with $29 million guaranteed.:overpaid- but give another year; coach up
Blow it up! McFadden is a heartbreaker... keep Palmer Jano Lechler and Seymour... few others... so much replaceability... lets take advantage and make the Zebras earn their stripes... and put BlandaRocked in the front office! Cheers.
Gary...
You make some very good points...Although there are a few players I would hate to lose on the "D" side it would still make sense...
These 12 players are young enough to make their contracts worthwhile:
"LB"s
Curry
Ro
Whimby
"DL"
ShawNasty
Houston
Moss
Scott
Bryant
"DB"s
Eugene
Branch
"MM"
Than we have these 5 rookies and 2nd yr players in development...
"DL"
Brodine
"LB"
Travis
"DB"s
McCann
"DVD"
"ChimChek"
That's 17 potential roster spots on the "D" and we can add to it from the lower cost labor pool while perhaps bring in one or 2 top tier "FA"s with the funds we save and a few draft picks...Namely "CB"/"DT"...Or maybe move Houston inside???
I Think Kelley sill has some life and would be rater difficult to replace if we're also moving Seymour...
Reggie is suppose to be the "Great Evaluator" so we shall see how creating it gets???
PantyRaider...That"D" Is Due For An Overhaul!!!/_
I think we need a proven coach to instill discipline
CULTURE SHOCK!!!!!
Imagine the shock for Stanford Routt, when he goes to another team.
He'll have to earn his playing time.
Play at a high level at all times.
Listen to what the coaches are telling him.
Be paid based on his performance.
WoW. Good luck Stanford.
And good luck to all other Raiders currently on the bubble.
CULTURE SHOCK!!!!!!!!!!
I don't mind, at all, the idea of blowing up the defense (personnel-wise). Season after season the problems are the same. There is, for some reason, a problem at least some of these guys have with finishing assignments. Constantly players are failing to fill gaps, protect zones, and then make tackles.
They are OCCASIONALLY capable. One wonders why it can never become an every game thing.
Nancy's post 9:01
What in the world are you talking about?
I'll ask you one more time,
ARE YOU JOHN HERRERA?
"Davis started this process and Reggie is following thru".
OH,OK IF YOU SAY SO!!!
WHAT A BONEHEAD!!!
THEN WHY DID AL EXTEND ROUTT FOR THAT $54 MIL AND WIMBLY FOR $48 MIL?
The only (SO CALLED PROCESS OF YOURS) that I saw, was that Al didn't know what he was doing ANYMORE!!!
SCALR8R
Blanda... yup! I'd take a young squad with the right leader over seasoned vets with the lax mentalities weve seen... knowing full well it takes time to develop. I like everything thats happening... whole lotta shakin goin on in quaketown!
"BR"...
I think with the "O" now stabilized with the retention of Al Saunders and the additions of a quality "WR" coach/Run oriented "ZBS" "OC" -w- Duel Technique "OL" coaching Staff -n- Retention of our "RB"s coach that the "D" can be targeted for wholesale changes without going completely in the dumper for a season or two...
If this "O" can maintain or improve upon it's top 10 status than we can still be in contention for a "PO" berth even if the "D" takes a little time to gel...Either way it should still be vastly improved over what we saw this past season...Top 20 at the least!!!
PantyRaider...Maintaining That "O" Was Key For Me!!!/_
Demon!!!
I don't copy you or your shadow!!!
The Way Is Shut You Shall NOT Pass!!!
Click-Click-Click!!!!...It never enters my scull!!!'~!
According to "J-Mac"!!!
Get ready for the myth of the salary cap
The whole term “cap-related” is a myth, as Tim Brown once explained to me years ago.
It’s never the productive player that gets released. It is the one the club deems to be overpaid, with the player determining he’d rather move on and cash a check somewhere else rather than take a salary the team feels is more in line with his contribution.
As for Michael Huff (due $8 million this season in roster bonus and salary), Tommy Kelly ($6 million in salary) and Richard Seymour ($15 million, half of it guaranteed), only McKenzie and Allen know for sure.
If the Raiders make moves with any of these players, it will have everything to do with production and little or nothing to do with the salary cap.
I doubt Seymour goes with us already on the hook for half that $15 Mil...May as well pay up and play the boy...That way we get something out of all that $$$$...
Just bite the bullet and view the $7.5 Mil already gone so all it costs us to keep Seymour in there another season is $7.5 Mil...
Cut Huff and his $8 Mil and we could afford to bring in a quality "CB" instead???
Eagles cornerback Asante Samuel.....said Friday he hasn't received a clear indication he's in the team's plans for next season.
Samuel's future, along with the team's intentions for pending free-agent wide receiver DeSean Jackson, are two of the biggest offseason questions facing the Eagles.
Samuel's contract likely plays a factor in the Eagles' decision. The three-time All-Pro selection is set to make $8.4 million in base salary next season with a salary cap hit of $9.5 million, according to NFL.com research.
I have no problems with Huff. He started out playing SS for which he was too small. He's better suited to FS, however I think he's most suited for CB. I think he'll be an effective corner if moved there. I would, however, restructure his contract.
If I'm on the training staff, the first thing I'd do is get on the phone with Jerry Rice and ask him to relate his training procedure to McFadden and the WRs.
Rice went through his career almost injury free. Certainly non contact injury free. Rice has a running program where he runs in the mountains, off trails. This requires sure footedness while planting his feet, and the unevenness of the terrain puts varying pressures on different areas of the feet and ankles. This has the effect of both stretching and strengthening ligaments and muscles.
Also, the high stepping that is required in Rice's workout strengthens the entire lower body.
H told panty: Losing Zach Miller was a mistake. It's very hard to replace that kind of talent at tight end.
as i stated when we lost miller, they don't have a QB to throw him the ball anyway. basically he went there for the $$$.
if he would've stayed here, with the previous offense, he wouldn't have the ball thrown to him either because the tight end position didn't exist so it's the same banana! no, actually it's not because miller is constantly hurt...
Stanford Routt is drawing immediate interest throughout the NFL. Vann McElroy believes that McKenzie will gut the team of expensive players who will all draw a lot of attention on the open market.
Routt is going to have a hard time converting himself into a different type of player now. Asomugha was having a hard time in Philly because he had to re invent his game. The Raiders will have a new style of D and Routt would of had to change his game completely. Taking that and his overpayment into account, I think Reggie made a smart move. I get the feeling the Raiders will have 2 new Corners to start the year...Can't see Lito Sheppard starting either. Huff was lost on the Corner in the old scheme, maybe he could start there in the new scheme? Kind of a stretch, IMO.
Reggie ain't F%&*$# around, if you aren't on board = see ya.
JONES
Sounds like the Cowboys are interested in Routt because SOB used to coach him.
Talk about two people that deserve each other!!
Well, if Vann McElroy says it...it must be true?
I think Reggie sent a message by cutting Routt. The rest of the players have to think long and hard if they really want to be in Oakland, this like drawing a line in the sand. Who's with me, who ain't....very strong move by the GM.
I think it will be up to the individual player if he will stay or not. If they show they are in, they get to stay until you have proven your worth. If they can't prove it, they will be upgraded, no more pets...it's the real deal.
JONES
I think the days of the Raiders splashing major cash on CBs is gone.
With a new owner, GM, and Head Coach:
No Raider player currently under contract can assume that (a) he will be on the roster or (b) that he will be a starter.
This will be a fascinating offseason to follow.
It is true that Raider corners, used to playing bump and run in man coverage, will have to change their game to what will obviously be the more common approach of using heavy zone and cover two with man coverage splashed in.
The Raiders required very specialized CBs and if they were good, they earned every penny they were paid.
I agree that McKenzie is very likely sending a message. The message is clear. Routt had a great burn percentage in 2010. When he got his big contract, his burn percentage more than went south. Message: The work doesn't end when you get the big contract - it's just beginning - you have to earn it 365 days a year.
I doubt Routt "backed off" because he got paid. He's just not that talented. Remember, he was benched once or twice before he finally beat out Chris Johnson as starter... which isn't saying much.
After Bresnahan took over for Marshall, he actually played more zone. That could have affected Routt.
Strangley, Routt's numbers were better when he played mostly MTM opposite Asomugha.
This further demostates that giving Routt a huge contract over letting Nnamdi go for almost the same money made no sense.
"NYR"...
We were losing both Namndi and Routt...A move was made to keep the one who wanted to stay here with NO guaranteed $$$$ involved which would never have been the case with Namndi...It was no where's near the same $$$ either...$17 mil compared to $8 Mil...By letting Namndi go when we did it saved all that dead $$$ as well...Otherwise it all would have been carried over...That "Dead $$$" paid for Curry -n- Palmer...
Namndi was also getting worn down and injured and didn't have much of a season away from the Raiders...So it was NOT a youthful healthy Namndi -vs- a youthful healthy Routt...Routt was a little younger but allot healthier and stayed in the lineup all season for us...His play just was what was expected when he was the #1 and being targeted...Also we never had a legitimate #2 who could hold up on the other side this past season...It was either the rookies "DVD"/"ChimChek" getting burned or vets at the end of their game like "CJ"/Shepard...
So what we now know is that Routt was a very good #2 but NOT a very good #1...He will no longer get the #1 $$$$ that he received for one season and that's prolley why he was sent packing according to "J-Mac"...If not willing to play for less see ya!!!
The wage scale is changing in the NFL after this past CBA...Many players won't be kool with that but it's the reality...This is not just an issue with the Raiders...It's the same case with other teams as well cutting some of that extra $$$ weight...Than there will be the teams who never spend their allotted Cap $$$ who now will have to pay out a 90% minimum...That means there will be allot of new $$$$ floating around so where does it go???
Possibly to their vets to keep them or to new high profile players who are being cut loose from the other teams...Can't remember the teams but they were some $40-$50 Mil under the cap...I believe there were 2-or-3 teams in that situation...
This past season both Seattle -n- Cinncy made moves to unload their Cap $$$$ and we were the takers...Curry -n- Palmer...We unloaded Namndi/Gallery -n- Zack...This season we have unloaded Routt which was speculated we would last season when he was signed to a non guaranteed contract....
Also we unloaded the cap hit from our 1st rd pick 2012 and won't get hit for the Cap $$$ on a 1st or 2nd in 2013...This also has to be added into the equation when talking about Palmer's $$$$...
PantyRaider...Just A Broader Financial View!!!!/_
Player Position Contract Terms
David Ausberry Tight End 7/27/2011: Signed a four-year, $2.086 million contract. The deal included a $45,900 signing bonus. 2012: $465,000, 2013: $555,000, 2014: $645,000, 2015: Free Agent
Joseph Barksdale Tackle 7/28/2011: Signed a four-year, $2.579 million contract. The deal included a $539,800 signing bonus. 2012: $465,000, 2013: $555,000, 2014: $645,000, 2015: Free Agent
Rhett Bomar Quarterback 1/7/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Kevin Boss Tight End 8/5/2011: Signed a four-year, $16 million contract. The deal contains $8 million guaranteed, including a $3 million signing bonus. 2012: $2 million, 2013: $3.5 million, 2014: $4.5 million, 2015: Free Agent
Jerome Boyd Defensive Back 2012: Exclusive Rights Free Agent
Tyvon Branch Defensive Back 2012: Free Agent
Mason Brodine Defensive Lineman 2012: Exclusive Rights Free Agent
Desmond Bryant Defensive Lineman 2012: Restricted Free Agent
Michael Bush Running Back 2012: Free Agent
Jason Campbell Quarterback 2012: Free Agent
Bruce Campbell Tackle 7/9/2010: Signed a four-year, $2.312 million contract. The deal included a $522,000 signing bonus. 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent
Cooper Carlisle Guard 3/3/2009: Signed a five-year contract. 2012-2013: $3 million, 2014: Free Agent
Chimdi Chekwa Defensive Back 7/28/2011: Signed a four-year, $2.490 million contract. The deal included a $450,000 signing bonus. 2012: $465,000, 2013: $555,000, 2014: $645,000, 2015: Free Agent
Jon Condo Linebacker 7/29/2011: Signed a three-year, $3.225 million contract. 2012: $1.175 million, 2013: $1.2 million, 2014: Free Agent
Jamie Cumbie Defensive Lineman 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Aaron Curry Linebacker 2012: $5,757,500, 2013: Free Agent
Hall Davis Defensive Lineman 1/7/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Hiram Eugene Defensive Back 3/3/2011: Signed a four-year, $10.25 million contract. 2012: $2.25 million, 2013: $2.75 million, 2014: $3.25 million, 2015: Free Agent
Jacoby Ford Wide Receiver 7/19/2010: Signed a four-year, $2.225 million contract. The deal included a $510,000 signing bonus. 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent
Travis Goethel Linebacker 7/15/2010: Signed a four-year, $1.893 million contract. The deal included a $103,000 signing bonus. 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent
Richard Gordon Tight End 7/28/2011: Signed a four-year, $2.145 million contract. The deal included a $105,000 signing bonus. 2012: $465,000, 2013: $555,000, 2014: $645,000, 2015: Free Agent
Quentin Groves Linebacker 2012: Free Agent
John Henderson Defensive Lineman 2/24/2011: Signed a two-year, $8 million contract. The deal contains $5.5 million guaranteed, including a $1.5 million signing bonus, all of Henderson’s first-year salary, and $1.5 million of his second-year salary. 2011: $2.5 million, 2012: $4 million, 2013: Free Agent
Stephon Heyer Tackle 2012: Free Agent
Darrius Heyward-Bey Wide Receiver 7/30/2009: Signed a five-year, $38.250 million contract. The deal includes $23.5 million guaranteed. Another $15.75 million is available through incentives. 2011: $1 million, 2012: $1.605 million, 2013: $2.21 million, 2014: Free Agent
Lamarr Houston Defensive Lineman 7/26/2010: Signed a four-year, $4.33 million contract. The deal contains $2.505 million guaranteed. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent
Michael Huff Defensive Back 7/31/2011: Signed a four-year, $32 million contract. The deal included $16 million in the first year. 2012: $4 million (+ $4 million roster bonus due 3/16), 2013-2014: $4 million, 2015: Free Agent
Zach Hurd Tackle 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Carl Ihenacho Linebacker 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Travis Ivey Defensive Lineman 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Rashawn Jackson Running Back 1/10/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Sebastian Janikowski Place Kicker 2/16/2010: Signed a four-year, $16 million contract. The deal includes $9 million guaranteed. 2011: $2.6 million, 2012: $1.7 million, 2013: $3.8 million, 2014: Free Agent
Chris Johnson Defensive Back 2012: $3.5 million, 2013: Free Agent
Taiwan Jones Running Back 7/27/2011: Signed a four-year contract. The deal included a $405,000 signing bonus.
Derrick Jones Wide Receiver 7/26/2011: Signed an undisclosed contract.
Tommy Kelly Defensive Lineman 2/28/2008: Signed seven-year, $50.5 million contract. The deal contains $18.125 million guaranteed, including a $13 million signing bonus and a $4.5 million in-season “signing” bonus in the second year. Another $2 million is available through incentives. 2011: $5.5 million, 2012: $6 million, 2013: $6.5 million, 2014: $7 million, 2015: Free Agent
Terrail Lambert Defensive Back 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Shane Lechler Punter 2/18/2009: Signed a four-year, $16 million contract. The deal includes $9 million guaranteed. Another $3 million is available through incentives. 2011: $3.2 million, 2012: $3.8 million, 2013: Free Agent
Bryan McCann Defensive Back 2012: Exclusive Rights Free Agent
Rolando McClain Linebacker 7/29/2010: Signed a five-year, $40 million contract. The deal contains $23 million guaranteed. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $970,000, 2013: $1.535 million, 2014: $2.1 million, 2015: Free Agent
Darren McFadden Running Back 6/5/2008: Signed a six-year, $60 million contract. The deal contains $26 million guaranteed, including a $6.4 million “log” bonus and a second-year roster bonus of $5 million. 2012: $5.65 million, 2013: $5,856,250, 2014: Free Agent
Eddie McGee Wide Receiver 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Lonyae Miller Running Back 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Michael Mitchell Defensive Back 7/27/2009: Signed four-year, $3.778 million contract. The deal contains $2.028 million guaranteed, including a $1.6 million signing bonus. 2011: $480,000, 2012: $565,000, 2013: Free Agent
Denarius Moore Wide Receiver 7/27/2011: Signed a four-year contract.
Jarvis Moss Defensive Lineman 2012: Free Agent
Louis Murphy Wide Receiver 7/28/2009: Signed a four-year, $2.198 million contract. The deal included a $448,000 signing bonus. 2011: $480,000, 2012: $565,000, 2013: Free Agent
Brandon Myers Tight End 7/16/2009: Signed a four-year, $1.840 million contract. The deal included a $90,000 signing bonus. 2011: $480,000, 2012: $565,000, 2013: Free Agent
Carson Palmer Quarterback 10/18/2011: Signed a four-year, $43 million contract. The deal contains $7.5 million guaranteed, including all of Palmer’s first-year salary and $5 million of Palmer’s second-year salary. 2011: $2.5 million, 2012: $12.5 million, 2013: $13 million, 2014: $15 million, 2015: Free Agent
Alex Parsons Guard 1/3/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Terrelle Pryor Quarterback 8/25/2011: Signed a four-year contract. The deal included a $586,000 signing bonus. 2011-2014: Under Contract, 2015: Free Agent
Raiders QB Quarterback
Marcel Reece Running Back 2012: Restricted Free Agent
Stanford Routt Defensive Back 2012: Free Agent
Samson Satele Center 2012: Free Agent
Chaz Schilens Wide Receiver 2012: Free Agent
Trevor Scott Defensive Lineman 2012: Free Agent
Richard Seymour Defensive Lineman 2/16/2011: Signed a two-year, $30 million contract. The deal contains $15 million guaranteed — all in the form of Seymour’s first-year base salary. 2012: $7.5 million (+ $7.5 million roster bonus), 2013: Free Agent
Matt Shaughnessy Defensive Lineman 7/25/2009: Signed a four-year, $2.602 million contract. The deal included an $852,250 signing bonus. 2011: $480,000, 2012: $565,000, 2013: Free Agent
Curtis Taylor Defensive Back 1/7/2012: Signed a reserve/future contract.
Manase Tonga Running Back
Demarcus Van Dyke Defensive Back 7/27/2011: Signed a four-year, $2.63 million contract. The deal included a $591,376 signing bonus. 2011-2014: Under Contract, 2015: Free Agent
Jared Veldheer Center 7/9/2010: Signed a four-year, $2.685 million contract. The deal included an $895,000 signing bonus. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent
Kamerion Wimbley Linebacker 8/1/2011: Signed a five-year, $48 million contract. The deal contains $29 million guaranteed.
Stefen Wisniewski Center 7/28/2011: Signed a four-year, $4.135 million contract. The deal included a $1.507 million signing bonus.
Mark Hutson our new "TE" coach:
1990-2012:
Oklahoma University
(Graduate Assistant)
Murray State)
(Tight Ends/Special Teams)
Boise State
(Tight Ends/Special Teams)
Arkansas
(Tight Ends/Special Teams)
University of Tulsa)
(Offensive Line Coach)
Eastern Illinois
(Assistant Head Coach/Offensive coordinator/Offensive Line Coach)
Eastern Illinois
(Interim Head Coach)
Tulane
(Offensive Line Coach)
Tulane
(Interim Head Coach)
Oakland Raiders
(Tight Ends Coach)
>>>>
This further demostates that giving Routt a huge contract over letting Nnamdi go for almost the same money made no sense.
>>>
Another rare time I agree with NYR,
Asum would have added two wins this past year IMO.
A HUGE mistake and a head-scratcher by Al.... Asum was a loyal, hard-working player.
Kinda similar to the Marcus Allen situation.
Al did have his fuckups....
There is no reason to break the bank on ANY cornerback.
How the cap dollars are allocated has a big impact on how a roster is constructed and in turn, the results on the field.
Gary...
There was NO "Almost the same Money" involved here...Not unless you consider $10 Mil almost $17 mil...None of that Routt contract was guaranteed $$$...Resigning Nmamdi would have been...Then you have all that "Dead Money" that was on the books and would have carried over if Namndi remained...
I think you are looking at what Namndi signed for in Philly as being close to the same $$$ instead of what he would have cost us...NOT the same $$$$...
"Nick Holz from Stanford added to Offensive Staff"
"Raiders Have Hired Johnny Lynn as their secondary Coach. Former coach of the Eagles"
"Also as of Friday Richard Seymour’s deal of 2 yrs 30mill is official all guaranteed...Richard Seymour will be getting paid 15mill for 2012"
PR... with Asum on the field we would have beaten Buff and/or Detroit, IMO. Thus hosting at least one home playoff game. How much revenue does one extra game produce?
It could have covered Asums entire salary, I'm guessing. 9 dollar beers add up pretty fast I'd think.
Looks like the new management valued Seymour's leadership and playing abilities than most of us here. I hope we get at least two more years out of him... he was injured most of this year. It might have cut back on his production and double teams.
I assume we need him for his experience with the 3-4 also. I wouldn't be surprised if we made the switch almost fully.
The problem with our defensive backfield wasn't giving too much money to Routt. The problem was realizing that the loss of Nhamdi would leave a hole in the defense, and then not really doing anything to fix it.
They apparently decided that Routt and Johnson, with some young talent thrown in, would be sufficient. But we NEVER had healthy, youthful, veteran leadership on the opposite side from Routt. Johnson was out the whole damn season.
I'd like to see Branch moved to FS, Mitchell to SS. I'd move Huff over to CB. I think we'll need to add a veteran free agent to fill it out.
Right now, Seymore is the only real leader on defense. While he's in decline, we need the leadership in order for a new defense to fly.
Our LB corps is going to require some evaluation. Curry worked out for us because we put him in a system that only required him to get to the ball carrier. If the system changes, we may have to exchange him for someone else. McClain came out of a 3-4 in college. He's basically fine on run plays (when he can find the gap) but kind of sucks in pass coverage. The pass coverage skill is extremely important because of how many quick slant patterns they run in this division.
Raiders | Clayton Lopez could join coaching staff
Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:16:44 -0800
The Oakland Raiders may hire former St. Louis Rams defensive backs coach Clayton Lopez to help out with their secondary.
Someone just reminded me that Seymour was a friggin beast in the early games before he hurt his knee and basically had to quit practicing.
He was looking great in the early games now that I think about it... wasn't there defensive player of the year talk early?? He should have plenty in the tank if he can stay healthy.
"BR"...
The bulk of our injuries were amongst the "DB's...2nd was "WR"s...3rd "RB's...
Than throw in the "QB"/"DE"/"LB" to fill it out...
Allot has been said about the loss of our "WR"s and "RB" but very little is noted about the losses to our "DB"s...Not sure why???...Maybe afraid to give "SuckChuck" a nod or afraid to let the Namndi loss escape notoriety...
We had to add players to finish the season...Sheppard and Gerodano each started half the season...Neither made the cut to make the 53 man roster to start the season but they became a necessity by the midpoint...Our rookies were already down at that point and we were so thin that Huff was our Nickle Corner....
If you look this is prolley a factor that led to "Ro" being in that "Cover 2" running with a fleet footed "WR" that he couldn't catch...Coverage Schemes became limited due to injury...
None of this gives "SuckChuck" a pass...There must have been a better way to deal with these issues other than what he attempted in his lame mentality!!!
Not sure I'm convinced about Seymour's "leadership." Hasn't he been thrown out of games the past two years? Our defense has been pretty much awful during his tenure.
I'm not saying he's a bad player or that we should get rid of him, but where does all of this "leadership" talk come from? What has he led?
Has he inspired teammates to raise their game? Could have fooled me.
>>>
I'm not saying he's a bad player or that we should get rid of him, but where does all of this "leadership" talk come from? What has he led?
Has he inspired teammates to raise their game? Could have fooled me.
>>>>
The players seem to think otherwise. And most of the defensive problems were BEHIND the line... hands down.
I guess this means you aren't on board with St. McKenzie yet?
Seymour will stay because the money is set in stone. If he was cut, it's too much money to just give away. Maybe the new staff can get more out of Richard because there is no way he is giving back in value for what the past management paid him.
Another "whacked out contract", not to mention a 1st RD pick, that slows the improvement of the team. I sure hope Reggie isn't following the same plan laid out by the past management. If he is, the Raiders will wallow in mediocre.
JONES
Not on board? Where you been?
I'm not the one who's being dragged kicking and screaming into the sunshine of major change.
That would be you and others, not me.
The Raiders have been 27th and 29th in rushing defense the past two years. Nice try.
One thing I think the Seymour signing indicates more than anything is that they are going to try and win it all quickly. There is absolutely no other reason to spend an extra 7.5 million on Seymour if they didn't think they had enough pieces to win a ring next year.
So the people that wanted to "blow up the franchise" might be bitterly disappointed.
Next years team might look a lot closer to this years team than you might have hoped.
I think this is GREAT news!
The "trade McFadden and Palmer for draft picks" people might have to take a seat at the back of the bus...
The 3 provocateurs all show up within minutes....and G-dog tries to stir the pot with "St.McKenzie". He also uses "looks like the management team thinks more of Seymour's leadership and incredible talent than most on this site"....don't you have anything better to do? Is this all you have? Try drinking as many bottles of Jack Daniels as possible, it might do you some good. You might end up making some sense, for once.
JONES
..."So the people that wanted to "blow up the franchise" might be bitterly disappointed."....
And the provoking continues...what a child. Name one person on here who said they wanted it blown up? All I remember the new GM saying is they will UPGRADE, that there is talent and he will work night and day to upgrade where needed. If you have to do this shit to get your kicks....poor guy/s
JONES
>>>>
Raider Take said...
Not on board? Where you been?
>>>
So why are you questioning this decision? Seems they should get the benefit of the doubt. There is no reason to spend an extra 7.5 million on a player you think is PART OF THE PROBLEM... unless they are simply crazy people.
Which is it? Or are you going to try and straddle both sides of the fence again...
>>>> Name one person on here who said they wanted it blown up?
>>>
You're kidding right?
I can name ten people here over the years that have said this franchise needed to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up.
I can't question anything? That's been your mantra for years, hasn't it? DON'T QUESTION. Not my mantra.
At this point, I don't mind keeping Seymour, particularly since we don't have any draft picks.
Anyhow, although I know it might have been too subtle for you, but I actually questioned this notion that he's a great "leader." He's a good to great player depending on the game. But leader?
Then you point out that our defensive front hasn't been a problem, I point out the facts of our rushing defense, and then you do your thing: ignore my rebuttal and try to juke me down another rabbit hole instead of addressing my rebuttal.
>>>>
Then you point out that our defensive front hasn't been a problem, I point out the facts of our rushing defense, and then you do your thing:
>>>>.
Ok fine...
If you would actually watch the games, the problem in giving up all those yards on rushing was mostly because of all the long plays... usually the front four did a very good job of bottling everyone up for the majority of the plays. Wehnever a RB got past the line... it was always OFF TO THE RACES!!
Why do the long plays happen? Usually because McClain was guessing on the wrong gap, and our safeties were busy watching the cheerleaders.
If you want to try and put that all on Seymour's shoulders, that's a rabbit hole you are already in.
Fix the linebackers and safeties, and the run problems get fixed.
I think McKenzie is already smart enough to figure this out...
I can even prove my words:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl
We were 18th in the NFL at "adjusted line yards" (Removing all runs over 10+ yards) but 28th and 30th in the "2nd level" ranks and "open field" ranks.
Is that a great line? No.. 18th, but once again we had some injuries... most notably Shawnessey and Seymour's knee.
OTOH 30th in "open field" ranks is CRAZY bad... our secondary COULD NOT TACKLE!!! These are things very easily noticed from watching the games...
Just because our secondary was completely awful doesn't mean our line was great, or that Seymour's a great "leader." The latter of which was my original point before you went down the rabbit hole.
You've been pimping the Seymour trade since day one. You own it, I get it.
And we're both still waiting for that winning record.
Come out into the sunshine of major change. It's warm outside.
BTW.. that was another thing I liked about Asum... he was a pretty good open field tackler... not as good as CWood mind you.. but a pretty sure tackler. Easily the best CB at tackling since CWood.
Routt was a joke. Huff IS a joke. Branch is pretty good. Prolly our best tackler in the secondary. He needs to be resigned.
>>>>
Raider Take said...
Just because our secondary was completely awful doesn't mean our line was great, or that Seymour's a great "leader."
>>>>
Perhaps you can explain to me how a defensive lineman can discipline the secondary players?
Perhaps we can go from there. If we had brought in someone like Ray Lewis in the secondary (who you were dead-set against bringing in) I could see your point. Romo was part of the reason the defense rose so highly the SB year... he was kicking fucking ass on all out young secondary players.
Its pretty hard for a guy in the trenches to be a leader in the secondary... just a thought here...
BTW, RT, I know you are still fixated on losing that 17 pick in last years draft in getting Seymour... go ahead and cherry pick the player we should have drafted there considering we still ended up with Wiz, Chekwa, T Jones, Barksdale, and Moore.
Those players pretty much filled all our needs last year... and someone like Moore might end up being the steal of the entire draft.
Hmmm...Maybe Andy Dalton, the guy who replaced Carson Palmer (who cost us another first rounder) and who took the Bengals to the playoffs and looks like a franchise QB?
The contracts signed the past 2 years has created a situation where the new management has to make some very difficult decisions.
Some players will be cut, some retained, and some will need to restructure to stay. Nothing new here besides the people involved in this evaluation.
When healthy, Seymour's versatility (3-4,4-3, inside, outside, run D, rush the passer) makes him a key cog in the Raiders defense.
BR,
I disagree about McClain's pass coverage skills. When McLain was asked to cover in zone 5-10 yards off the LOS, he did fine. When he was asked to cover 15+ yards from the LOS, he was a liability. Using our LBs like Wimbley and McClain to cover backs, receivers, and TEs way down the field was bad coaching.
I agree with CJ and RT. The Seymour leadership thing is lost on me when the guy gets thrown out of game for stupid sht and not once either. Not only that but early in important games. Don't remember him doing that in ne.
Have to live with some contract decisions from the past in order to field a team. What I don't think is that this team is close to anything meaningful for several years. I'll eat sht for a while because I feel that McKenzie needs time which I am willing to give.
...."dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up."...
Top down...you can't even get that right...G-dog...you are a WASTE of time.
JONES
"Its pretty hard for a guy in the trenches to be a leader in the secondary"...
Too funny....so I guess Seymour could only be "a great leader" with the DT's? I mean, how could he lead those DE's when they were so far away? LOL...what a clown.
JONES
>>>>
Have to live with some contract decisions from the past in order to field a team.
>>>.
You are making excuses. Would you let a non-IAAFer do that when Al was alive?
>>>>
What I don't think is that this team is close to anything meaningful for several years.
>>>>>
So that makes the decision COMPLETELY moronic and wasteful.
Gosh, that didn't take long for McK to be thrown under the bus by fiat!
Too funny!!!
>>>>
Raider Take said...
Hmmm...Maybe Andy Dalton, the guy who replaced Carson Palmer (who cost us another first rounder) and who took the Bengals to the playoffs and looks like a franchise QB?
>>>>
So what would we do with Campbell? Cut him? You DO remember how brooding and pouty he was when he got benched (or had any kind of QB competition) the year before, right?
The Raiders thought they were fine at starting QB... and almost certainly would not have drafted one... try again.
First off, Gary, you asked me to "cherry pick" a player we should have drafted if we'd had our #1 pick. Your terms.
Dalton would have been a great pick there, period, end of story.
As for Campbell...Dalton went to a team whose QB was also pouting, if you'll recall. And guess where that decision ended up? In the playoffs.
You're going to base your draft decisions based on who might pout, instead of what's best for the long-term future of the team?
You've become way too accustomed to defending the bad.
>>>>
Raider Take said...
First off, Gary, you asked me to "cherry pick" a player we should have drafted if we'd had our #1 pick. Your terms.
>>>>
well ok. We should have had a crystal ball and knew that Campbell would get injured and that weak-armed Dalton might be a good QB coming out of TCU, and we should have then scrapped our entire offense and built a WC offense around Dalton like Cinci did (You DO know Jay Gruden is OC there right?.)
Not sure where Hue Jackson would fit in to this equation.. maybe you wanted him fired too just to make Dalton work??
If that all makes sense to you, and you feel better about your assertion that the pick was more important than Seymour.. knock yourself out!
>>>
You've become way too accustomed to defending the bad.
>>>
So why compound it by KEEPING HIM???
You should be as pissed off as I saw you throughout the entire last 5 years??
But no...
No way St. McKenzie made a blunder... right?
First off, that line was directed toward your "pout" reasoning for not drafting a player. I suppose the Colts shouldn't draft Luck. After all, Peyton might POUT!
As for Seymour, decisions have consequences, and dominos fall. The trade was made, here we are, keeping him was the right move all things considered. But great trade? Leader? Not really, as far as I can tell.
Trust me, when McKenzie does something I don't like, I'll let you know.
I'm not going to be bullied away from criticizing (as you tried before), or INTO criticizing (as you're trying now).
Good luck avoiding the sunshine. It's too bad that you've already decided to give our GM the pejorative nickname "St. McKenzie."
Defending the bad, and now hoping against good. Nice.
Gary,
McKenzie has a mess to clean up. The limitations on draft choices and bloated contracts on the books is something he will need to deal with.
No one is suggesting that (a) there is a need to blow things up and start from scratch or (b) that it would be prudent do so.
My expectations for McKenzie are for him to find every possible avenue to upgrade our organizational staff and personnel.
It won't happen overnight but I'm loving the fact that we are in the process of evaluating every possible football aspect that relates to the product on the field.
PR -
"...It was no where's near the same $$$ either...$17 mil compared to $8 Mil..."
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers but Routt was given a 5-year $54.5 million contract. That's not that far removed from the 5-year $60 million contract the Eagles gave Asomugha.
Routt more than doubled his salary from the year before (probably tripled it), while Asomugha took a substantial pay cut from his franchise tag money.
Plus, Asomugha was by far the Raiders' best defensive player. And don't tell me he wanted to leave because that's simply not true. I heard him on Sirius Radio say he would like to stay in Oakland.
The simple fact is, Davis intended to let Asomugha go... he said so in a press conference long before free agency. Davis stated he could sign two players for Nnamdi's contract value; after which Davis franchise-tagged Wimbley for $11.3 million +/-.
RAIDERS NEWS
LATEST HEADLINES:
Gary named Assistant Saint to Saint McKenzie-
The Oakland Raiders are pleased to announce that Gary, has officially been named as Assistant Saint to Saint Reggie McKenzie,the Raiders newly appointed (one month on the job)GM.
Although Gary's only experience has been as a regular contributor to the blog Raider Take, his acerbic yet often misguided opinions should provide a unique perspective regarding football operations, specifically in the area of player personnel.
Welcome Gary!
Man, you go away for a couple of days and we’re canonizing people. Come on now, we need a miracle for beatification then a second one for sainthood. Let’s at least get the first miracle done before we discuss sainthood.
Gary,
I would disagree that Huff is a joke. With the right DC he can be a force. He was moved to free safety after two seasons at strong safety. In his first year under Marshall he had a good year. In his second year he had a very good year. Second on the team in tackles, led the team in interceptions and threw in four sacks. Under Bresnahan his production took a nosedive. And, while he missed a few games in ’11 his per-game production was nowhere near as good as ’10. It’s not always how you perform, it is sometimes how the DC utilizes you.
I’m not sure he’s #7 talent, but he has abilities. We saw some of that under Marshall.
H
Don't be rediculous RT. Seymore is practcally a god to the rest of the D. Where have you been?
CJ, I remember exactly one play where McClain was covering deep, and he was supposed to get help over the top.
If my memory serves me, McClain got burned deep covering Calvin Johnson. Then, two weeks later, in a game that ultimately cost us the season, he was getting burned deep by Vincent Jackson.
Either one of those plays/games could have saved our season and sent us to the playoffs. So it wasn't a one-time mistake, or some minor oversight by coaching. It was a huge flaw that, hopefully, will get corrected.
I'm guessing that McClain will show huge improvement this year under a new scheme and better coaching.
H... I see people say that Huff is playing good and I just never see it. Maybe its because the Raiders never have a good free safety??? When we have one that isn't horrible we think it is good or something? Did you watch the Ravens games in the playoffs? Ed Reed was EVERYWHERE. He nearly won the first playoff game single handedly. In contrast... Huff shows up in your teevee screen AFTER the play is made, and he then pushes the receiver out of bounds for a "tackle."
Maybe its not fair to compare Huff to the best FS in football... but holy shit... you'd think he'd accidentally be in the right place to break up a pass every once in awhile.
The guy reacts, he doesn't anticipate. That is not something coaching can correct. Ed Reed anticipates, not reacts... he could play on any team in the league and be the best at his position. Rodney Harrison was the same way and NE won three rings with him. We need a safety cut from that cloth... not Huff.
>>>>
Although Gary's only experience has been as a regular contributor to the blog Raider Take, his acerbic yet often misguided opinions should provide a unique perspective regarding football operations, specifically in the area of player personnel.
Welcome Gary!
>>>>
Gosh... sorry for pointing out that if Seymour is such a horrible player it was a horrible decision to keep him.
I will try to be more of a team player here... all I need is a lobotomy and a sheaple-like herd mentality and I am all set!
The funny thing is I am actually backing up St. McK here... I think signing Seymour was a good decision. What I am trying to figure out is why the people that don't think is any good, why they aren't having the pissy fits that I saw when Al made the same decisions? Its the same with the Knapp hiring... that had Al Davis written all over it. Yet silence from the herd... very puzzling.
Gary,
Here’s the bottom line of Huff. First of all we can’t have All-Pro players at every position. It would be nice, but impractical.
Second he flourished under Marshall. In 2010 he had 84 tackles, three interceptions and four sacks.
In fact, under Marshall our safeties combined for eight or nine sacks that year. He and Tyvon Branch were tied for first among safeties for sacks that year, if I read the stat sheet correctly.
H
are we desperate for a quality #1 receiver? guess who's coming out of retirement...
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7570336/randy-moss-says-wants-return-football-2012
Scorpio,
Not that desparate I hope.
I hear he's broke and needs the money.
H
I also hear Terrell Ownes is broke after making eighty million.
H
>>>>
Here’s the bottom line of Huff. First of all we can’t have All-Pro players at every position. It would be nice, but impractical.
>>>>
Agreed, but you have to admit we do need a play-maker SOMEWHERE in the secondary! I'd argue that the FS makes the most sense to try in bring in a blue-chipper.
Micheal Griffin is the guy I'd be most interested in... if not FS, we need an impact LB. I think there are a ton of very good FA LBs available this year. The one thing Cork keeps harping on is spot on correct... WE NEED MORE PLAYMAKERS! Just signing our guys and hoping we can coach them up is not going to cut it. There are ZERO playmakers in the secondary.
Yep, playmakers are good. Currently though, I'm more interested in the coaching and defensive philosophy after last season's debacle on defense.
H
..."Its the same with the Knapp hiring... that had Al Davis written all over it. Yet silence from the herd..."
Gee G-dog, it's only been explained to you about 20x's over already and for the "life of you" you just can't seem to figure it out...what a surprise, what a waste (of time).
JONES
..."WE NEED MORE PLAYMAKERS! Just signing our guys and hoping we can coach them up is not going to cut it. There are ZERO playmakers in the secondary."...
G-dog, Weren't you saying that the Raiders were so close to a possible SB appearance this past year, just a few weeks ago? First you blamed the DC, now it's the LB's and DB's. Are you admitting that the personnel wasn't good enough, that the coaching wasn't good enough? But it was so close to a SB bid and Hue was one of the best HC's in the league.... Does consistency count for anything?
JONES
>>>>
H said...
Yep, playmakers are good. Currently though, I'm more interested in the coaching and defensive philosophy after last season's debacle on defense.
>>>>
To me... thats going to be pretty much a given it will be MUCH improved. We could start the same players as last year, warts and all (LITO FRIGGIN SHEPARD??) and still move up 10 notches with better coaching. The question is will that be good enough? I don't think it will be... IMO, we need to find our way into the top 12 to 15 in defense to make a dent into the playoffs. Thats not happening just with better coaching.
The buzz is McK will be very active in free agency. I still wouldn't be surprised if we start 6 new players on defense.
Jones... at least argue with the things I have said... I have been VERY consistent in saying the defense needs to be re-done... just scan down in this thread a bit and you will see me say that besides maybe Shawnessy and Branch, there are very few standout players on defense. The offense is what I thought was SB quality.
Please... I know your hard-on for me is enormous (even to the point of stalking me to other boards) but stop lying.
..."Please... I know your hard-on for me is enormous (even to the point of stalking me to other boards) but stop lying."
Yeah sure, G-dog..I'm all over the internet looking to see what good ole g-dog has to write over and over...yeah, it just thrills the shit out of me G-dog. Your ego is way bigger than your brain...too bad for you.
JONES
>>>>
Your ego is way bigger than your brain...too bad for you.
>>>>
Stop humping my leg then, Jones.
I don't follow you around anywhere... I don't even read your usually content-free posts (unless I am bored.. which has been lately.)
If I am such a small person to you, why do you waste so much energy humping my leg? Hint: you are nothing more than a troll, and you have no control over it.
So with Mr.Davis running the Defense and the players that Mr.Davis put in place that you say are not top caliber ....sounds to me like you are blaming Mr.Davis for the state of the Defense? You are now saying that Hue was not a very good HC? Who hired Hue Jackson as HC?
Sounds like you are now an IIFFAER or whatever...that didn't take long to flip flop, hey G-dog? Your consistency lasts for 3-7 day periods...You read like you are in a constant menstrual cycle.
JONES
.."Stop humping my leg then, Jones"...
Seems you have a few on here that you are humping...are you the only one who's allowed to hump? Isn't that what this board is for? No humpin, no posts. One rule for the "...." and all the rules to everyone else...some things never change.
JONES
"The offense is what I thought was SB quality." (Gary)
That's a reach! But will that opinion change if McFadden is traded?
>>>
nyraider said...
"The offense is what I thought was SB quality." (Gary)
That's a reach!
>>>>>
I dunno. Perhaps. The Giants were only a few spots above the Raiders in stats offensively... and certainly didn't have to replace a QB mid-season.
>>>
But will that opinion change if McFadden is traded?
>>>>
Oh for gawd sake yes. I can't wait to see McF and Palmer on the same field together! It could be one of the more dynamic pairings in history... who knows?
>>>
No humpin, no posts.
>>>
Ok fair enough.
Perhaps we need a humpin limit?
"The Giants were only a few spots above the Raiders in stats offensively... and certainly didn't have to replace a QB mid-season."
Still crying about injuries, Gary? It's part of the game. Besides, most folks think the Raiders upgraded their QB in mid-season, but you've been crying about it since the season ended.
You must think Palmer really sucks!
>>>>
Still crying about injuries, Gary?
>>>>
When you make comparisons it seems fair to point out pertinent differences in the information sets... at least if you are a normal person.
Do you really think the NYG had THAT much of a better offense than the Raiders? Considering they didn't have any injuries to their RB's or Eli??
And the injury to Campbell could end up be the best thing that ever happened to the Raiders since they brought in Gannon. Are you not excited as much as I am to see Palmer and McF on the same field together? Or what is your point?
G-dog wants a limit? Well I think you have used yours up, Gary. Haven't you ever heard of Ivana Humpalot?
So the "...." gets to write as many 'humps' as they want, but everyone else should have a limit...is that how it goes G-dog...one rule for....on and on it goes, where the provocation stops, nobody knows.
JONES
G-dog has officially flipped 'sides'. He is now an IIFFERA he blames Mr.Davis for a terrible Defense for the last 20 years and says Mr.Davis' picks and trades for D players hasn't been good at all. Wonder if Cable Guy (Jethro) is going to jump all over G-dog for not backing Mr.Davis and bad mouthing him? This should be fun to watch....G-dog, if you think I am humpin your leg...this Cable Guy is going to out and out rape your leg...have fun with that.
JONES
Jones... if you wish to bring up something that is worthy of debating, perhaps we can have a rational non-leg humping discussion about it that other people might be interested in reading.
What are your targeted FA picks? I think someone here mentioned CB Samuel from the Eagles... I think it would be a fine pickup. What are your thoughts?
..."perhaps we can have a rational non-leg humping discussion".....
You sure like to make the rules, don't you? You like to be in charge, huh?
Am I adult enough now, that you can lower yourself to discuss non humpin topics with me? I don't know G-dog, sometimes things just don't mix. You see myself as a Mr.Davis hater/ Reggie nut sucker with no real value...I see you as a provocateur and a closet IIffaaer with no real value, other than humpin your leg. If you really want to try and have a SINCERE discussion...ball is in your court...prove you can.
JONES
Gary,
Saying our offense last year was "SB quality" is silly and naive.
Seriously, in what context was our offense "SB quality"?
If your argument is hinged on "well our offense 'would have been' at a SB level 'if' (keyword) we didn't have so many injuries then you are being disingenuous. That type of argument is completely hollow. Injuries happen and it was unfortunate but it is a part of the game.
If your argument is our offense would have been "SB quality" 'if' (keyword) we had a D comparable to the Giants, than you are only blowin' smoke up your own ass.
Our QB play, rushing attack, and production by our WRs/TE was average.
Palmer 13 TDs, 16 INTS
Top Rusher (less than 1000 yds)
Top 2 WRs combined (less than 100 receptions)
Scoring: Ranked #16
What exactly did our offense do that was "SB quality"?
Don't get me wrong though. I think our offense going into 2012 has the pieces to be a top offensive unit. I love our corps of young skill players.
Just to break the ice, G-dog....I think Reggie might have his eye on Porter from New Orleans. I think McClain will be a different player next season. Seymour should be used in rotation... Huff and Branch at S's another corner will be needed if a Porter type is signed.
Mitchell is not a starter, he can't see the game well, he is always just a bit behind the play. Will need another LB or 2...with a new scheme, they could be a force. I have mentioned a few times that the talent they have on D can be improved if the scheme was changed...we will see. Your turn.
JONES
>>>
Palmer 13 TDs, 16 INTS
Top Rusher (less than 1000 yds)
Top 2 WRs combined (less than 100 receptions)
Scoring: Ranked #16
What exactly did our offense do that was "SB quality"?
>>>>
1. NYG was not much better (Didn't I make that clear enough??? Jeesh)
2. Palmer was playing very good football at the end of the season.
He finished the season out:
367-1-0
300-1-2
417-2-1
Those are numbers not seen in a 3 game stretch since Gannon... are you BLIND or something?? You actually watched those games and thought the Raiders had no shot because of THE OFFENSE???
3. McFadden quite probably would have been back for the playoffs.
4. Its not how you play during the season, its how you play in the playoffs... the NYG's proved that once again.
Jones... thankyou for actual football talk... I disagree on Porter because of a scary #64 stat here: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/
I agree on Mitchell... slow and stupid.
Most of the rest I agree with.
1. NYG was not much better (Didn't I make that clear enough??? Jeesh)
=================================
NYG Scoring offense: Ranked #9
OAK Scoring offense: Ranked #16
NYG Scoring defense: Ranked #25
OAK Scoring defense: Ranked #29
To qualify for the playoffs and win a SB you need to have:
* An elite offense, good defense
* An elite defense, good offense
* A good offense, good defense with both units being opportunistic to make game altering plays (clutch when it counts; ie. big, game altering plays such as creating turnovers, key special teams plays, etc.)
I would put NYG in the 3rd category.
==================================
2. Palmer was playing very good football at the end of the season.
He finished the season out:
367-1-0
300-1-2
417-2-1
Those are numbers not seen in a 3 game stretch since Gannon... are you BLIND or something?? You actually watched those games and thought the Raiders had no shot because of THE OFFENSE???
===================================
I don't base a "SB quality" offense on 3 games. BTW, a 4 TDs to 3 INTs ratio hardly qualifies as a phenomenal stretch.
==================================
3. McFadden quite probably would have been back for the playoffs.
=================================
Really Gary? Why is this even relevant when (a) we didn't make the playoffs (b) you have no idea if he would have been back (c) if he returned whether or not he would be rusty or unable to plant his foot with full explosion.
==================================
4. Its not how you play during the season, its how you play in the playoffs... the NYG's proved that once again.
===================================
The most asinine circular logic of going nowhere REALLY fast ... you're kidding right?
It is how you play during the season that allows you to reach the playoffs in the first place.
The Giants qualified for the playoffs by winning 3 of their final 4 games and coming up big when the chips were down.
The Raiders failed to qualify for the playoffs by losing 4 of their last 5 games and shrinking in the moment.
>>>
The most asinine circular logic of going nowhere REALLY fast ... you're kidding right?
It is how you play during the season that allows you to reach the playoffs in the first place.
The Giants qualified for the playoffs by winning 3 of their final 4 games and coming up big when the chips were down.
>>>
Could you move the frikking goal posts any more, CJ? The topic is OFFENSE.
>>>>
The Raiders failed to qualify for the playoffs by losing 4 of their last 5 games and shrinking in the moment.
>>>>
The offense closed the season out averaging 23 points a game and 416 yards of offense (and the low scoring game they WON). They missed the playoffs because of DEFENSE... DUH!
You asked me to prove the Raiders were a SB quality OFFENSE and 23/416 a game is "SB Quality" on every planet that I am aware of American Football being played... and that is how they closed the season (thus for the logic impaired, that is how they would continue to play POST SEASON.)
If you want to argue something else.. take your strawmen elsewhere.
>>>>
* An elite offense, good defense
* An elite defense, good offense
* A good offense, good defense with both units being opportunistic to make game altering plays (clutch when it counts; ie. big, game altering plays such as creating turnovers, key special teams plays, etc.)
>>>>
This is the argument CJ uses to prove I am wrong about the Raiders having a "SB quality" OFFENSE??
And people wonder why I get so fucking frustrated here??
Good grief... he'd be laughed out of a 6th grade debate class for inability to concentrate.
NYG post season averages:
25.5 points a game and 402 YPG.
Yup.. I am crazy to think the Raiders couldn't HANG WITH THIS when they closed out the season at 23 and 416!!!
Gary,
You are only kidding yourself and every Raider/football fan to think we had a "SB quality" offense in 2011.
Here's a cold dash of reality for you.
We had a very average, #16 ranked scoring offense. How is that "SB Quality" offense?
Keep spinning your yarns until it balls up in a knot.
Using the term "SB quality" offense implies a team that with a good D would be SB bound.
Did we have a good D? No.
Did we have an elite rushing attack? No.
Did we have an elite passing attack? No.
Did the offense commit a high # of turnovers? Yes. In the AFC we ranked 2nd to last at 30.
Please explain in simple terms how the offense is "SB quality".
I am really curious to know from you what you think our offense did that was extraordinary, noteworthy, elite level?
What do these #s mean to you?
367-1-0
300-1-2
417-2-1
300-1-2? And? You mean to tell me that a team with these #s has a good offense? elite offense? SB quality? Give me a FN break.
"NYR"...
"Davis stated he could sign two players for Nnamdi's contract value; after which Davis franchise-tagged Wimbley for $11.3 million +/-."
And if you go back and look that figure that was being said could sign 2 players was the $17 Mil...Than on top of that was all that dead $$$ form the previous renegotiations which was being applied forward...That "Dead $$$ Money" was also wiped out by letting Namndi walk...Don't remember the total but it was somewhere in the $25 Mil range total that keeping Namndi would have cost us...
When the "Dead Money" was wiped out we had $10-15 Mil under the cap so it wasn't all Namn's $$$$...
Gary...
"JackSmack" still trying to ignore that we had a top 10 "O" (#9) which was the equal or better than some teams who made the "PO"s and that any team who makes the "PO" has to be considered a "SB" contender so therefore have a "SB" caliber "O"/"D"...But don't expect to get anything logical such as that threw his impregnable dense scull...Just won't happen as dumb as he has become!!!
Raiders | Richard Seymour willing to restructure
Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:53:51 -0800
Oakland Raiders DT Richard Seymour said he is willing to restructure his contract or sign an extension if the team asked him to so they can change his salary cap number. Seymour also said he believes he has several more elite seasons left.
Raiders | Terrell Williams hired
Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:51:21 -0800
The Oakland Raiders have hired Texas A&M assistant coach Terrell Williams as their defensive line coach.
Raiders | Could pursue Cortland Finnegan
Mon, 13 Feb 2012 06:10:46 -0800
The Oakland Raiders could make a play for Tennessee Titans impending free-agent CB Cortland Finnegan, according to a league source.
PR - I'm not sure what dead money you're referring to, nor the $17 mil.
Nnamdi was a free agent. The Raiders had no more obligation to him. Just like Zach Miller, Mr. Davis never made any attempt to sign him.
Had Davis tried, he probably could have signed him to a similar contract that the Eagles negotiated.
Dude is your franchise player one year, and the next you completely turn your back on him while you're placing premiums on lesser players.
Gary asked Jones, "What are your targeted FA picks? I think someone here mentioned CB Samuel from the Eagles... I think it would be a fine pickup. What are your thoughts?"
Overpriced free agents? Been there done that. I'm hoping Reggie sticks to his plan to find hard nosed players.
With maybe one or two exceptions (based on need and availability), I imagine Reggie bringing in players we've never, or perhaps barely heard of.
“besides maybe Shawnessy and Branch, there are very few standout players on defense”
It’s just my opinion, but the most consistent and best player on defense the past two years is Tommy Kelly. Two seasons, 14.5 sacks and 100 tackles. Not to mention knocking down passes. It’s very hard to get that kind of production from the interior of a four man line.
Where I’m disappointed is Lamar Houston. Five sacks his first year only one his second. As a DE he should be getting a little better push from the edge. For now though, I’m putting that off to the scheme. Seems he was dropping into coverage more this year instead of rushing the passer. I can only assume when McClain was covering deep, Houston was covering the TE. Either way, he needs to be more of a force.
Calico,
“Our QB play, rushing attack, and production by our WRs/TE was average.”
I would disagree on the rushing attack. I believe had Bush been the starter the whole year he would have had about 1,300+ yards. We finished in the top ten if memory serves. Injuries was the reason we didn’t have a 1,000 yard rusher, not for the failure of the team. But, as a team we ran the ball pretty well.
Now, tight ends, below average for the talent that was there. WR’s Average is better than we got the last few years. So, maybe that’s a step in the right direction.
You see, timing is everything. The Giants had injuries on offense and defense. But, they had enough depth and coaching that they hung around and made the playoffs on the last week. That was also the time everyone got healthy.
Our problem was the defense sucked early, middle and late season. Even when folks were healthy. Many times they looked confused and disorganized. Even the coaches on the sidelines appeared to be unorganized. It’s not good when even the coaches aren’t on the same page.
H
In fact, Kelly's numbers the past two years are comparable to Ndamukong Suh. More tackles .5 more sacks over two seasons.
The one spot on defense where we performed reasonably well was the interior of the DL.
H
"H"...
I saw a report on Houston that was very good bur not sure where...Good against the run with multiple hurries/pressures...
"NYR"...
Your memory is failing you...
Namndi was NOT "Franchise Tagged" and under contract until he failed to get one "Int" in 2010 thus activating a "Void Clause" in his contract...
He than failed to avoid that "Void Clause" and so did the Raiders thus making him a free man...
For the Raiders to keep him it would have been necessary to pick up the final year of that contract for the $17 Mil that was stipulated and also keep the "Dead $$$ Money" that was already renegotiated forward...A sizable amount from previous years!!!
By this one "Void" we ended up some $20 Mil under the Cap after reportedly being well over it...There was allot more at stake than just the $17 Mil...
Evidently the Raiders made NO attempt to resign Namndi and he made NO attempt to get resigned???...That's according to reports that he wanted to go to Philly and that the Raiders wanted to move on without him...Crying over it accomplishes nothing!!!
You can go back on this board to that time and look at all this info that I posted because "Jack Smack" was failing to understand about that "Dead $$$ Money" and still claiming we were way over the cap...So were you if I remember correctly...This was all investigated thoroughly back than so I'm not sure why you can't remember now???...Remember it was the single issue leading up to that Challenge that "JackLiar" lost!!!
I would post it all again now but I'm on the road so don't have access to those files...Next week when back home if you really need to see it all again???
PantyRaider....Ancient History Revisited!!!/_
PR - You're right! And thank you for that correction.
I would suggest, therefore, that Mr. Davis certainly had it within his powers to reach out to Nnamdi and negotiate (before or after voiding his contract) a comparable agreement to what he ultimately signed in PA.
This is what I had a problem with.
When you think about, what big-money players over the past nine years have the Raiders been awarded with commensurate big play?
In that light, Nnamdi was really the exception not the rule in Oakland.
I suspect his relationship with Davis went south (like so many other players) once he more or less criticized the Raiders for having a one-dimensional defense.
Miller can attribute his departure to showing loyalty to his HC, who was also shown the door.
No matter what you believe happened or why, the results are clear; both positions (CB and TE) took a huge hit last year.
Raiders | Have some cap wiggle room
Tue, 14 Feb 2012 07:50:57 -0800
As of Sunday, Feb. 12, the Oakland Raiders had $3.23 million in excess salary cap space that can be carried over to next year.
Raiders | Cornerback among needs
Tue, 14 Feb 2012 05:42:59 -0800
Cornerback and linebacker are among the positions the Oakland Raiders must dramatically upgrade in the offseason.
Well, at least our new OC has had a couple of top ten offenses.
The guy the Chefs just hired has never been higher than 22.
H
H... I also like Tommy Kelly, and think he would be very hard to replace. There might be someone slightly better to replace him with, but at what cost, and how much of his salary would we eat?
The line is going to be fine with a healthy Shawn. IMO... need help in the secondary. We need a free agent CB, LB, and FS.
Gary...
"One thing I think the Seymour signing indicates more than anything is that they are going to try and win it all quickly."
Absolutely and then he said he would restructure his deal...We are already $3.25 Mil under before we even start to maneuver for more Cap space...Routt going prolley helped???...Not sure if that was before or after the Cap projections??
We won't be on the hook for any 1st/2nd rd Cap $$$'s either...So whatever we free up will be available for new "FA"s or trades and to bring back Bush -n- Branch if we can...
Not an easy venture but nothing like what Al Davis had to maneuver around in the past...Now we will get to see how well Reggie is prepped as a "Capologist"???
PantyRaider...2012 Again The Year Of The Raider!!!/_
"Cornerback and linebacker are among the positions the Oakland Raiders must dramatically upgrade in the offseason."
Kind of ironic when you consider the Raiders probably have among the most expensive LB and CB position groups in the league, including a slew of 1st round draft picks.
>>>
Blogger H said...
In fact, Kelly's numbers the past two years are comparable to Ndamukong Suh. More tackles .5 more sacks over two seasons.
>>>>
No arm stomps either!
>>>
Overpriced free agents? Been there done that. I'm hoping Reggie sticks to his plan to find hard nosed players.
>>>>
How do you know he will be over-priced? Was Romo and RWood "over priced" when we brought them in in 2001? What price do you put on top of the line veteran talent that might just put the team over the top?
You just can't rely on bargain basement defensive players and win championships... thats what Bellichick has been trying for the past 5 years now... and it still isn't working.
We need at least ONE veteran leader in our secondary. Ya can't win championships with Walmart talent... sorry.
I'd prefer a free safety but there isn't much out their to grab....
>>>>
367-1-0
300-1-2
417-2-1
300-1-2? And? You mean to tell me that a team with these #s has a good offense? elite offense? SB quality? Give me a FN break.
>>>>
Hey Bubba... thats the game we WON, remember? Thats what teams with an elite QB's do... pull games they should lose out of their ass with last second PASSING plays. You DO remember how we won the KC game, right?
We played our last three games of the season with nearly identical offensive stats as the NYG did in winning the SB, and you still won't admit we had a comparable offense. This seems to me like you just can't admit you are wrong about anything.
Thats a YOU problem... not me.
If I am wrong I admit it... but teams DO win SB's with a HOT QB and an offense on a roll... and that was what was happening towards the end of the season... the defense took a shit on the field is all.
Most normal Raider fans realize this.
..."One thing I think the Seymour signing indicates more than anything is that they are going to try and win it all quickly."....
I think it represents that Seymour was given a huge amount of guaranteed money and there was no getting around it. The rumor that Seymour is willing to restructure also plays a part. That was one of the reasons why Reggie sent Routt packing, sending the message.."if you are only out for yourself and the cash, you won't be around long". If Seymour does restructure, means he got the message. All that guaranteed money is too much to toss in the bin with no return, more of a business decision. The long term goal is to be contending to "win it all" every year, not just quickly.
JONES
"You just can't rely on bargain basement defensive players and win championships... thats what Bellichick has been trying for the past 5 years now... and it still isn't working."
So the Raiders model has been better than the Pats? Results say different!
And nobody said anything about "bargain basement" players.
Here's the numbers that convinces me we should possibly go after Samuel if the price is right... notice he is number 8 in the "making them work" category (with Revis number one) and number TWO in the "QB-beaters" category (with Revis again number one).
The article also mentions this for free agents we should be targeting if available...
"Other players in the Top 5 are soon-to-be free agent Brent Grimes, Carolina Panther Chris Gamble, and Sheldon Brown."
Now this is the news that you can USE!
>>>
So the Raiders model has been better than the Pats? Results say different!
>>>>
Well only if we figure out a way to pick up Tom Brady!
You seriously are not going to suggest that NE keeps winning because of DEFENSE are you???
They keep winning DESPITE their defense, not because of it.
For some reason I don't see that happening for the Raiders anytime soon unless maybe McF or Palmer has a MVP season.
Oops.. here's the url:
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/
This website is a GOLD MINE for stat geeks!
"Well only if we figure out a way to pick up Tom Brady!"
Why do we need Tom Brady? You've recently pointed out that the Raiders are as good as the Giants, who just won the SB against Brady.
Gary, I would guess no team has been plucked more for its free agent players and coaches than the Pats. That's certainly not because of Tom Brady.
Of course, if you believe the Pats have done nothing worth while in the past several years, at least they have gotten the best of the Raiders, on and off the field.
367-1-0
300-1-2
417-2-1
Well, my problem with those is column 3. Palmer is a big talent, but I sure would like to see him go a little longer without throwing an interception.
That's been one of his problems throughout his career. I think it's something like for every 10 TD's he throws 7 int's.
Our defense was bad enough, they didn't need any help by being in bad field position from a turnover.
In four playoff games, Eli Manning threw only 1 Int. I'd like to see Palmer cut down on his turnover ratio. Every little bit helps.
One place where Campbell shines is, if memory serves, he hasn't turned the ball over in the red zone in like three seasons.
H
Stats are for geeks. Lot more to a football picture than stats. Proof is in the pudding = results. Geeks always claim Routt is a top CB because of 'stats'. When you watch him play...nahhh, he doesn't look like a top CB. Watch the freakin games, if you have a clue, you don't even need to know any stats...."yeah, that guy is good", or, "that guy ain't good enough". Those who use stats are usually the ones who don't know what they are looking at. And IMO, that's why they are geeks.
JONES
Jones,
For the most part I agree. However, there are certain stats that are meaningful. Turnover ratio, time of possession, scoring defense, scoring offense.
It's better to be 16th in total defense and 12th in scoring defense than 16th in total defense and 20th in scoring defense.
Example, New England and Green Bay were the two worse teams in terms of total defense, but they were 15th and 19th in terms of scoring defense.
But, bottom line is always results.
H
The telling stat for Routt was that he led the league in penalties... and not just CBs.
Most telling about Routt was the outrageous amount of money that was thrown his way. That plus the penalties got him tossed from the roster. If another team throws that much money at him again, they will be very disappointed.
JONES
That segues back to my earlier question: In the last nine years, what free agents have the Raiders thrown big money at and gotten big play from in return?
It's not a trick question, and it's not like the Raiders haven't thrown around big money.
Clayton Lopez, who also will coach the defensive backs.
Gary...
I don't see anything on how Cortland Finnegan of Tenn is rated??...He's the name that's being thrown up as our targeted "CB"....Recent history as fighter/troublemaker???
Date of birth: February 2, 1984 (age 28)
Height: 5 ft 10 in
Weight: 192 lb
NFL Draft: 2006 / Round: 7 / Pick: 215
Pro Bowl selection (2008)
Tackles 472
Sacks 6.0
Interceptions 14
"NYR"...
No one performed very well for our "D" 2011 so scratch that...But 2010 was a different story and our "ST"s still did very well...
Here are a few big money names:
Jano
Shane
2010:
Wimbley
Kelley
Seymour
Gary,
Keep using that 3 game sample size to describe a 16 game season all you want.
Bottom Line:
NYG offense scored more, converted 3rd downs at a higher rate, turned the ball over less, and committed fewer penalties.
h, j campbell is a deer in the headlights medeocre qb on a medeocre team. good riddance!
Scorpio...
I agree about "CJ"....Good Ridden!!!
We have a real "QB" now in Palmer and another high potential replacement in Pryor...
Add a #3 and we be set...
NO "Bi-Boller" issues again!!!
My expectations for Palmer in 2012 are through the roof.
For the Raiders to become a truly elite offense, Palmer will need to cut down on his INTs dramatically and have a 2+ to 1 ratio of TDS to INTS.
With a full camp, complete command of the playbook, and a full roster of healthy WRs and RBs and TEs at his disposal, the sky is the limit.
Guys like Ford, Moore, and McFadden are impact playmakers.
Our OLine was a VERY pleasant surprise in 2011 and Veldheer and Wiz will only get better.
With more 3-4 WR sets and using Boss in the Red Zone, our offense should be more dynamic and potent ... more TDs in the red zone vice FGs is the difference from being a #16 ranked offense and #5-#10 ranked offensive unit.
Converting more red zone opportunities can be the difference between a 2-4 game swing in the won, loss column.
I am truly excited about the combination of our offense realizing their full potential and our defense improving significantly by playing more aggressive AND sound D.
Scorpio,
I didn’t say Campbell was the second coming of John Unitas, I just said he didn’t turn the ball over in the red zone. In fact his QB rating in the RZ is over 100.
Plus, in the area of results, his record as a starter with the Raiders? 11-7.
On the right team, he will do well. We could do a hell of a lot worse, and have.
H
Panty,
That list you provided was not big money free agents. NYRaider was asking about big money free agents that produced. All those were either via trade or draft.
Sadly, the supposed big splash free agent acquisitions have been lacking.
H
PR said:
"Here are a few big money names:
Jano
Shane
2010:
Wimbley
Kelley
Seymour"
Really?! Only five names come to mind over a 9-year period? IMO, only the kickers are valid.
Wimbley came to the Raiders in 2010 for a song, then way underperformed his new mega contract in 2011.
It took Tommy Kelly three years to start earning his mega-contract.
And Seymour has not been the impact player, nor the on-the-field leader we paid for.
The Raiders repeatedly - and somewhat regularly - set precedents on the NFL’s largest contracts by position, but have little or nothing to show for it... except two Pro Bowl kickers.
Maybe McKenzie will flip this model around. Instead of trading away draft picks and signing players to huge contracts, maybe he will accumulate picks, find quality undrafted free agents, etc, and let other teams overpay for overrated Tier I free agents.
Despite what Gary thinks, it’s a model that has worked well for New England and some other teams.
H - I am open to expanding the list to include Raider free agents. It's still an incredibly short list.
Tired of this stupid reasoning:
Lets see how the Non-Play-Off Raiders* "O" stacked up against the "PO" "O"s shall we!!!
Scoring "O" as if that was the only # rating that should be considered:
"GB" #1
"NO" #2
"NE" #3
Det #4
Atl #7
"NYG" #9
Houston #10
"SF" #11
Bal #12
Raiders* #16
Cinn #18
Pitts #21
"Donkey" #25
Passing "O":
"NO" #1
"NE" #2
"GB" #3
Det #4
"NYG" #5
Atl #8
Pits #10
Raiders* #11
Hous #18
Bal #19
Cinn #20
"SF" #29
"Donkey" #31
Rushing "O":
"Donkey #1
Hou #2
"NO" #6
Raiders* #7
"SF" #8
Bal #10
Pits #14
Atl #17
Cinn #19
"NE" #20
"GB" #27
Det #29
"GB" #32
"OL":
"NO" #2
Cinn #4
Raiders* #5
Atl #6
"NYG" #7
"NE" #9
Bal #12
Hou #13
Det #17
"GB" #21
"Donkey" #23
Pits #24
"SF" #26
"FG"s:
"SF" #1
Cin #2
Hou #4
Raiders* #5
Bal #8
"NE" #10
"NO" #10
Atl #14
Det #17
"GB" #17
Pits #22
"GB" #29
"Donkey" #29
Total "O":
"NO" #1
"NE" #2
"GB" #3
Det #5
"NYG" #8
Raiders* #9
Atl #10
Pits #12
Hou #13
Bal #15
Cin #20
"Donkey" 23
"SF" #26
Obviously the Raiders posted the "O" qualifying stats in every freakin category to qualify for the "PO"s despite the wholesale injuries that were suffered!!!
So apparently it was something "OTHER" than the "O" that was keeping the Raiders out of the "PO"s and "SB" contention!!!
Any dumb blind ass could scream "D" here but NO!!!...Someone is so damn ignorant that they think "Scoring O" is what held us out!!!
LoL!!!...Dumb or what!!!
"NYR"...
You asked who have produced...They have produced...I acknowledged that no one really produced in 2011 on the "D' side and didn't make any attempt to go back some 9 seasons so where did that come from???...Just a added "Change Up"???
Panty,
It goes without saying that to get to the Super Bowl you need to be among the league leaders. You can also flip that list to defense and get similar results.
Five of the top seven defenses made the playoffs. Five of the top eight offenses made the playoffs. Atlanta was ten offense and twelve defense. Then there were the Geldings. So, there’s your twelve playoff teams.
I don’t think anyone is disputing the offense played pretty well. But, if you subscribe to the theory that a good offense helps the defense and vice versa, which I do, then our defense really, really sucked. There were two or three players that had decent seasons; however, the overall performance of the defense was abysmal. Based on 2010, they should have been much better. And, I’m excluding the first Chef game from my analysis.
The top four teams in total offense were also the top four teams in scoring. That meant only a one or two place gap when rearranged for the category. We were nine in total and sixteen in scoring. That’s a seven place gap.
It’s like my old economics professor used to say in class, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. The results were we were 8-8. The results were we didn’t make the playoffs again. The results and play on the field showed most of the problems were on defense. Who knows, if we had been number nine in total and number eleven in scoring, it might have been different. But, with our defense I don’t think we would have made it out of the first round.
H
From Calico Jack -
PR,
As usual, you get things completely twisted without understanding the context of my comments.
#1
I have been on record countless times saying (a) our 2011 was a good (not great) offense and (b) our 2011 defense sucked. And?
#2
The comments that I made were strictly in reply to Gary saying we had a "SB quality" offense which is a seriously flawed statement in itself.
As we all know, there are numerous factors that goes into a team's success, making the playoffs, making a SB run.
#3
There is no question that our D was the primary factor for us not making the playoffs. No new news here ... move along.
I'm still waiting to hear ANYONE's view on why exactly we had a so called "SB quality" offense in 2011. Seriously. What was special about it?
Does a "SB quality" offense commit 30 turnovers? Score #16 ranked in the league? Commit a high # of penalties? Convert a low % of 3rd downs? Have a poor red zone efficiency?
No of course not.
Our offense did some very good things and at times was explosive. We all know the injuries were a set back and the level of consistency was poor but overall on an old school grading system, I would give our offense a solid B-.
Calico Jack
"H"...
All -n- all when it's all said and done our "O" was good enough to compete in the "PO"s and that's all I think Gary was posting...Than everyone who makes it has an equal shot at the "SB"....Our "ST"s were also good enough to compete...We all saw that our "D" was NOT good enough to compete...
As a result we failed to qualify but NOT because we failed to field a good enough "O"...
And I also agree...A good "O" helps the "D"...Conversely a good "D" helps the "O" by consistently giving good field position and more opportunities with the ball...But our "O" had to carry that team on it's own with very little help from the "D"...
Now that speaks even louder as to how good that "O" potentially was and that going forward how good it could potentially be...
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