One Postgame Take
We gave up 250 yards of rushing, including the spectacle of Reggie Bush slipping through three missed tackles for a touchdown. How do you give up that many rushing yards when their passing attack is led by Ryan Tannehill?
Punt returns of 36 and 24 yards were negated by penalties.
Meanwhile, Darren McFadden is now averaging two yards per carry so far this year. I'm no football coach, but something isn't working (hello, zone blocking scheme?).
And maybe it's just me being harsh, but is this the most listless-looking 300+ yard per game passing attack imaginable?
Maybe it's just because after 670 yards of passing in two games, we have scored just two touchdowns. One came late in the Chargers game as hope was being snuffed out amid the slowest "hurry-up" offense imaginable. The other was a spectacular run-after-catch by Mike Goodsen yesterday.
So we've got two touchdowns and a handful of field goals after eight quarters. How is this possible with Darren McFadden and Carson Palmer leading your rushing and passing attacks, respectively?
Greg Knapp is an obvious and easy target. Yet this also seems to be a continuation from last year. The Raiders have now lost six of their last seven games, a run that began with....you guessed it, a 34-14 drubbing the last time they played in Miami.
Here's Inside Bay Area quoting Tommy Kelly: Kelly called the loss "embarrassing." In the past, he didn't see much hope for change on the heels of such a defeat. "This is different, because we're a whole lot better than when we went 2-14 and 4-12," Kelly said. "We have a way better team. We're more talented. ... But you have to be able to produce on Sunday, and we aren't."
This is different...and yet it all feels very familiar. Right down to the clown car.
posted by Raider Take at 7:23 AM
121 Comments:
I hate clowns.
I will just say it's "ChickenShit" and to be expected by this "HateTrippin" "Board-o-Depression"!!!
If some of you bastards had even strapped on a jock it might have sunk in what it takes to play team sports and win or the sacrifices that are made by the people involved...But instead you make your putrid little child insults/assaults upon my Raiders!!!
"NO Commitment No Honor"!!!
PantyRaider....Just Disgusted!!!!//_
C'mon Panty, noone's more upset that the players, they embarrassed themselves. Let's get real. They looked like bozo's. It's just the truth. It's still summer, but it's time for these millionaires to earn their money as professional football players. They did not just get beat yesterday. They got outclassed. GO OAK! Beating Pittsburgh can pivotal swagger.
Good Take, and the clown car was deserved.
What bugs me is if we are going to stick with the vets, and dump players like DVD (who made a great jump on a ball and broke up a TD pass two days before the team dumped him) why even bother? Why not instead blow up the entire team? Start over from scratch?
I'm pretty sure DVD would be smart enough to not be off the LOS ten yards on a 3rd and five play. That's the vet losers we have playing now. Uhh.. Reggie, there's a reason these guys never were starters elsewhere. They are MORONS.
Mr.Duva32 said...
Gary-
Maybe you saw something's from Palmer that I do not. That's fair. But I watched the exact game you did today. This ZB is new for Palmer and they are surely some growing pains.
>>>>>
This is a similar offense to what got him a Heisman, but you might be right.
But most of his throws are under heavy duress so far. The plays where he has time has been pretty good. And if he needs more time... where is that bootleg we were supposed to see? You know, the one Carson was so thrilled about when he first saw the playbook?
Who's calling the plays to get CP in a position to succeed? I don't thing anyone is. And who hired this moron again? Did anyone do anything besides scratch their head when Knapp was hired?
RT you're on the money. 373yds passing and we score 13 points. Great for fantasy football but not for reality. The run defense has disappeared and the secondary is just waiting to be picked apart by an elite QB(Big Ben & Peyton coming up). Keep the reality checks coming.
The Autumn Wind is 0-2
When McKenzie came on board, he came on board to create a mirror of what he learned from the Green Bay Packers because that’s where he got his executive experience – just as Al Davis learned fundamentals of what he knew from the great Sid Gilman in San Diego. Just as Davis always returned to Gilman’s system (and was recreating it again when he died last October), McKenzie will always return to a West Coast system.
The problem is, Davis did not leave McKenzie with West Coast players or West Coast coaches. Davis went back to the Gilman offense a couple of seasons ago, and also dispensed with the ZBS.
McFadden is a power system runner. Under the power system, McFadden thrived. If McKenzie insisted on the ZBS, he should have kept Bush (who is far more suited to the ZBS) and traded McFadden for zone style defensive backs.
Championship caliber teams match their personnel with their system. This will take a few years for the Raiders, because rebuilding for a Gilman style offense and Man defense was already well under way. Allen wanted to ease the transition by retaining Steve Wizniewski as a coach, but it didn’t take The Wiz long to understand he had little to contribute to a system that he never used.
I still believe that six or seven wins are there for the Raiders this season. They ARE NOT a playoff caliber team this season in a West Coast offense and Zone defense. They would have been in the playoffs last season if Jason Campbell hadn’t gone down mid-season. I’ve said that from the beginning of the transition. I said that we were going to be starting all over again, and I was told that I was just a pessimist. Everyone here but Panty and I said that the Division Championship was in it for us now that Davis was out of the picture. And who, I ask, are the pessimists now?
The clown car is well-deserved.
In two short weeks, this team has failed on so many levels it has to revival any Raiders team in recent history.
Every phase of the game has had its own set of failures, with some epic mistakes in the mix.
Hopefully, Knapp won't dial up the ZBS against the Steelers this week and insult the intelligence of the entire Raiders fan base.
What happened to being multiple?
Palmer and Allen both talk about taking what the defense is giving them. Well, to paraphase Monte Poole, if you like passing yards between the 20s, then you must like the Raiders passing attack.
That's what defenses are giving the Raiders... and they're happy to do it, I'm sure.
SCAR
Rough viewing, I stopped watching with 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter to mow the lawn,,,, I didnt want to throw anything thru the television..,
A few observations from the couch,,,
McFadden is not a good pass catcher.
I have to agree with many commenters that McFadden is not good at finding holes(required for a zbs right?)
Everybody knew that Tannyhill was going to throw the out to the wr,,so why didnt we scheme to take the play away?
Did we bring the heat on the qb? Early in the game the Raiders defense did put Miami into a lot of third and longs,,, and so...did we bring the heat?
"It's like deja vu all over again"
Didn't Miami run all over us last year too? Considering that in the first half the run defense shut down Miami, is it a matter of heart? Did the heat and humidity wilt the defense?
Two games is stiiilll too early to make season long judgements, but the picture is firming up,,,After two games, Tarver C-...Knapp, D....
Special Teams D-
This is Dennis Allens show. How is he reacting? What sort of adjustments is he making?? I dont see the fire to WIN in his expressions like with Gruden, that doesnt mean he doesnt have the will to win,,,,but I just aint seeing his Will to win on the field yet either...
SCAR
everyone take a chill pill! come on guys, even reggie said "you can't build rome in one day". look, this project is gonna take a while. reggie has to weed out all and i mean ALL of al's influence on this team as far as the players are concerned. how many coaching staffs and schemes will we need to go through to finally admit we just ain't got the right tools to get the job done? kelly? seymour? spencer? bartell? what we have is a patchwork quilt of guys put together temporarily until reggie gets the right players HE WANTS. until then, it's gonna be painful man so either we suck it up or cheer for someone else...
I was duped into believing the players were good enough to make a good team. From the last half of last year, to the 2 games played this year...the core is showing it's lack of almost everything. Where is the heart that even the Great Hue Jackson questioned at the end of last year? Where are the leaders on this team? Who are the playmakers?
I'm thinking there will only be one or 2 players left from the core that will be in the NFL in the next 2 years. Balanda is right when he says these players are not made for what the coaches want to run. I believe the motto of the coaching is.."if you can't fit, then you must quit" or be cut or traded. In my mind, I thought the players would have the talent to adjust to a new system and thrive in it, damn, was I way off.
I saw a lot of dog in the team, where is the desire? Passion? Allen has the look of disbelief in what he is seeing, or maybe it's more of a look of "I could see this coming".
Maybe management and coaches see already what this team is and know that it is going to need a complete redo. But this is what Reggie was brought into to do and he hasn't much to work with, thus all the waiver wire signings. The Raiders are trying to get talent, it's a lot bigger mess than I thought it was....resigned to waiting some more...yipppeeee.
JONES
I believe there is more then a simple talent issue at play here.
The bigger issue is, who on earth can motivate this so called, talent ?
What miracle worker can get the slackers to hustle, and play hard and smart, for 60 minutes on game day ?
So far, the Raiders have yet to find this person. Although, I admit, Hue Jacksom seems to have come the closest, until McFad, and the QB went down.
It seems to me that the players are up to their old tricks.
They will lay down, play poorly, and quit.
Then wait for the HC to be fired at seasons end.
Hopefully, things have changed in Oakland.
Hopefully, at seasons end, it will be Reggie, & DA still standing, and the lazy, dumbass, lackluster players shown the door.
Blandarocked, there were no championships predicted by me. I said 8-8, and you can go back and read it.
I said all along. It will take two full drafts, and free agent signing periods, before Reggie will have overturned the roster.
And this moment cannot come soon enough for me.
Tired of watching the same players fail every time.
There was a reason why we were the lowest scoring team in the League when Knapp was our OC the last time under Tom Cable; and it is becoming more and more evident (especially after yesterday's debacle in Miami) that it wasn't all JaMarcus' fault. Knapp wants us to have patience, well he needs to show us progress that supports our patience; which he has yet to do.
This is the trouble I have with Knapp, he did this under Cable too; he wants to coach his way, instead of coaching to the strengths of the players around him. There is a way to balance the two, and he has failed in doing so. His coaching style seems to be "we are going to do this my way, or you can find another team." That is why he will never be better than a position coach. Time to cut him while we can still salvage the season.
My fear is that McFadden won't work out in his ZBS blocking system, so we trade him and rid Palmer for other players that will work to his liking, and it will still fail. There is a reason why nobody else (except Seattle, where he had similar results) would hire him as an Offensive Coordinator. Could be worse, I guess; he could be our Head Coach....
That last post was from me
How do we expect our defense to make stops when our offense consistently went 3 and out every drive in the 2nd half?
This is the same thing that happened to us in 2008 and 2009 under Knapp as our OC.
After two or three offensive drives of 3 and out, our defense gave up a big run for a td, or a big pass for a td, or a combination in successive plays; which led to a td.
If you cannot coach to the strength of the players around you, you shouldn't be coaching at all. That is football coaching 101, from High School to the pro's. If you don't have the talent to coach the way you want, you coach what you have and build the team the way you want to coach. Yes, you can use some of that way to be creative; but the majority of your play-calling should be to the strength of your teams' talent. We've been missing that kind of coaching since Gruden left.
This discussion is like a tug of war for which came first, the chicken or the egg. Really, it's both the coaches and the players that have failed so far.
IMO, the roster is talented enough to make improvements now, e.g., McF in a power-blocking run scheme. It's on the coaches to make the adjustments and to coach the players up for 2012.
For crying out loud, there's still 14 friggin' games left this year.
This season won't be a failure as long as the Raiders can improve, and end the seaason strong; something they regularly fail to do year after year.
Nate...when installing a new 'program'...do you adjust to the players? Or do you come in and say "this is how we do it now, if you can't do it, you won't be here". That's what is happening, I guess the HC didn't come here to get the best out of the lackluster players he inherited.
I thought the core players would be able to do well in this new 'program'. I see the same players playing the same way as they did last half of last year, is it the coaching?
JONES
NY, something else they regularly FAIL to do year after year is TACKLE!
jones - it's not the coaches - it's the PLAYERS! they just don't have the talent management and we thought they had.
gotta clean house reg! this yera is gonna be painful folks. it;ll get worse before it gets better!
oops! my boss came in as i was writing that last post. look - what i meant was - steelers next, donkeys after that. falcons after the bye... we could very well be 0-4 to start. this could get ugly so we need to be VERY, VERY patient...
NYR...I don't know if you can "coach up" heart and desire. I saw these players quit at the end of last year, just like I saw them quit on Sunday. There seems to be no leadership...if I was to say I am souring right now, it would have to be on the players....maybe Hue Jackson was right for throwing these players under the bus last year.
JONES
Jones,
I agree.
Did you hear Matt Shaunassy ?? He was asked why Raiders couldn't stop run.
His answer: "We need to stay in our gaps, and make plays".
So for ten friggin years now, Raiders cannot figure out how to stay in gaps. Amazing.
Of course real answer is WHY Raiders do not stay in gaps.
It takes a tough, smart, hustle, player, to stay in gap, shed block, and blow up the run.
This is not rocket science.
Heart and desire will stay in gap.
Quitter will leave gap.
I think quietly, McKenzie and company have known what we were in store for this year from DAY 1.
There's a reason why pretty much every single new player they signed this off-season was signed to a low money, 1 year deal. THESE PLAYERS ARE NOT PART OF THE LONG TERM PLAN.
From a management standpoint, this organization was basically in ruins after last year. Bad contracts, Lost Draft Picks, Salary Cap Hell. This off season was about simply about putting the House in oder.
In a way, this NEW ERA OF EXCELLENCE we've been hearing about really can't start until NEXT off-season. I think that's probably been the mindset at team headquarters all along.
With salary cap room to play with, a full compliment of draft picks, (hell, judging by Sunday we may end up with the first overall pick in the draft.) We'll have a much better sense of what this new regime is worth, as well as where they plan to take us in the future.
Now, having said that, the decision to re-hire Greg Knapp has baffled me from Day 1. This was a top ten offense last year, with a healthy McFadden it would have no-doubt been Top 5.
Why in the hell would you LITERALLY revert back to the same offense we crafted for JAMARCUS RUSSELL???
Through 2 games, not a single guy looks comfortable running it. Maybe its a work in progress, and in time it will be effective, but why the hell would you try to fix what was never broken in the first place?
Defensively, I think its purely a personnel issue. We simply don't have the players on our current roster to be an effective defense. We have pieces sure, but not nearly enough of them.
I have faith in Coach Tarver. This is a better coached unit than last year, no doubt.
I'll still be at every single home game this year (plus the Atlanta Game)
I'll still go into each game hoping that they can find a way to win.
But Sunday was an eye opener. The Raiders where kind of an unknown coming into this season.
For 2012 anyway, I think now we know.
GO RAIDERS.
NYRaider said, "IMO, the roster is talented enough to make improvements now, e.g., McF in a power-blocking run scheme. It's on the coaches to make the adjustments and to coach the players up for 2012....
This season won't be a failure as long as the Raiders can improve, and end the seaason strong; something they regularly fail to do year after year."
I agree that it is on both the coaching and the players. My problem is that neither side are attempting to make improvements. The players aren't making improvements under the "new system", and the coaches aren't making adjustments. I was a little surprised that we let Campbell go, who would excel under the ZBS system; being a QB who "rolls out" well. At the same time, I like Palmer, he takes risks; and though sometimes that hurts us; we haven't had a QB take risks in awhile. He's a true leader too, always working with Pryor and Leinhart to help them improve. Something Campbell didn't do.
Jones said, "Nate...when installing a new 'program'...do you adjust to the players? Or do you come in and say "this is how we do it now, if you can't do it, you won't be here". That's what is happening, I guess the HC didn't come here to get the best out of the lackluster players he inherited."
I'm confused by this comment. When you inherit a roster that you didn't put together, and you know you don't have the talent to completely run the system you want; you filter. Meaning, you implement basic forms of the system you want in place and build that system with the players you want to keep; but the majority of your playbook should be to compliment the strength of the roster you have. Again, you're not negating what you want; but you are laying the building blocks of what you want, with the talent you have. That way if you're players are able to show that they can grasp to what you want and surprise you; you adjust and add more plays to that system you want. If not, you continue to doing what you're doing and start looking at who you want to cut, and who you want to replace them with.
As a coach in this situation, you know what you have based on film from the prior year, and experience of playing against them (as both Allen and Knapp have had). You do a little of both based on the roster you have.
I've got a feeling that if the tide doesn't change, we are going to be ridding of some offensive players that we shouldn't get rid of (McFadden, Palmer, and half of our line like Wiz, Carlisle, and Veldheer); and then we are rebuilding longer than what we thought we would.
I'm disappointed because I saw improvement in how we moved the ball in preseason. I was disappointed with the lack of imagination in the red zone (and still am); but we have just been shown that we are a long way off from what a lot of us fans thought we were at. Offensively this falls squarely on Knapp's shoulders. How can you score 27 points in 2 games with this offense? Deplorable.
I'm worried that implementing ZBS is a higher priority than winning in 2012.
Based on this year so far and Knapp's past stint here, I don't believe in ZBS... and perhaps no longer believe in Knapp as OC.
If the Raiders are going to be "multiple" they should be able to coach around the obvious personnel deficiencies presented.
Are you telling me a healthy McF is only good for 2 yards a carry? Or that McFadden is not good enough to play for the Raiders? WTF?
I guess Papa mention many times that CP's favorite offense is the no-huddle. We saw this last year... he played some of the best football as a Raider in the no-huddle. So where is it now? Why not the no-huddle in the heat and the humidity in Miami? Why not no-huddle when teams are loading up 8 in the box to stop McF? Carson could be free to call any play in the playbook to strike against it. Make them PAY for 8 in the box.
These are things I was told would be fixed. Football 101 problems.
Thus far I have seen none of it.
Very very very disturbing...
...if the Raiders make ANOTHER head coaching change in the next three years, for performance reasons, I will dismiss this team as inept and incompetent, not committed to excellence. The record of losses does not bother me as much as lack of confidence in selected leaders. If this happens without Al Davis, screw 'em. They suck. This is a test, Oak. Stick to yer guns, Oak, or you are fired.
...and if it happens this year, well, obviously.
I hope it doesn't. Stay the course.
This is a postgame take, and this is a blog that chronicles the ongoing fortunes of the Oakland Raiders.
So when the Raiders get routed by the Dolphins to open the season 0-2 in embarrassing fashion, don't be surprised if the postgame take is negative. Don't be surprised if fans express dismay or disgust.
It's sort of the natural order of things, right? When a team plays well, fans are high. When a team stinks, fans are low.
Regarding Coaching V. Players, my answer is: both
A coach and his staff can and should have an immediate positive impact. Look across the bay at what Harbaugh has done. I don't think there's much excuse for Reggie, Dennis and Co. not to be getting more out of these players. They should be better, not the same or even worse.
That said, the roster is pretty weak. Hard to make world beaters out of this crew.
In summary, the 2012 Raiders should be better than this, but it will take better players to get firmly to the next level.
I could not stop thinking about the clown car the entire game. I knew it was coming and it was earned.
I really don't want to go backwards, but I know Hue could have gotten more from this team. This offense is predictable and unimaginative. I believe we need to give Allen 3-4 years to mature. I think he has the makings of a good coach he just needs experience, HOWEVER, Knapp needs to be fired immediately after the season, if not sooner.
Get used to the clown car because this is going to be a LONG season. That being said, we are rebuilding, we have rid ourselves of ridiculous contracts and therefore I am still bullish on the future.
Roy
Coaching vs Players...
Ha, just listen to what Matt Shaunassy said.
Raiders can't stop run, because,"Not staying in gaps to make plays".
Were have we heard this before ?
Oh yeah, from the same lame ass players.
And why won't they stay in their gaps, time after time ?
Why won't they stick their helmets in gap, do the hard work, shed the blocks ?
Because these players, no matter who the HC, lack the toughnes, heart, and smarts, to get the job done.
Those still wanting the Great Hue Jackson back...do you not remember? He lost the team, they quit on him in the last half of the year. Hue ripped them as having no heart in his last post-game take. I shrugged his comments off that he had done some things (Nail manicure while Palmer needed him at meetings) to lose the team.
To see the team quit on Sunday, has made some things a little more clear IMO. I'm thinking that the core of the team might need a Shrink to twist their minds into what is expected from them.
Maybe the culture that was, still is, quit when it gets too tough, you will still get paid, once a Raider, always a Raider. Management will always back you, even if you quit...maybe that is still in that locker room. Maybe the Hc and GM has already identified this and know that you can't win with these players, if this is the case, it will be a long 2 seasons, until the core is wiped away.
JONES
An NFL Team is a company. Some fans invest money, some invest time, some invest identity, some, all of that... SO, absolutely, if you wave your pom poms regardless of wins or losses, what are you? You are a fanatic. I am still a raider fan (not the fanatical type) based largely on what is left of a so called commitment to excellence. I will never embrace another team, because the NFL has become even more business than it was in the seventies... eighties... nineties... twothousands... so, Raiders, millionaire pirates, play ball.
Nate.....this new regime has come into circumstances probably never seen before in Sports. An owner who passed, that controlled the whole show and had run an Org that doesn't fit any model before it or after it. The new regime inherits a roster that had been treated a certain way by the owner and put in a scheme and design that was only the Raiders.
Most of the core knows only of the past way of doing things in their professional careers. Now, comes in a whole 'new' way, a way that asks of different things from the players. Maybe the core is having a hard time adjusting to this new way, or, they just don't have it in them to adjust.
Sooo, the point is, the new regime has laid it down to the players, "this is how we do it now, if you can't do it, then you will not be here".
The new regime is installing what they want as the Oakland Raiders. The new regime is not going to come in and adjust to what the players are comfortable with. The new regime believes in what they want and their vision, it's up to the players to adjust, question is, can they? And if they can't, they won't be a Raider much longer.
The new regime may be looking at this year as a throw away if they have recognized that this core is not the core they want, if so, lets hope they can "rebuild Rome" fast and good.
JONES
It will be up to Dennis Allen to manage the personnel as well as the coaching staff with a very firm hand.
If the Raiders go 4-12, it will be attributed to Allen not Knapp, Tarver, the ZBS, or players without heart, etc.
One point of frustration is CP not having the discetion to go no huddle and audibilize at the LOS.
This is a situation where Allen needs to get in a room with CP & Knapp and make a leadership decision about utilizing the no-huddle and giving CP the backing to audible when he sees fit.
Make no mistake -- Palmer is the leader on the field and Allen the leader on the sidelines. Knapp should be an extension of Allen and conduit to CP. These changes in how the personnel is used, how the players are coached falls on Allen.
And when it rains, it pours.
Looks like Spencer will be out for a significant amount of time. Pat Lee and Joselio Hanson are currently the projected starters at CB.
Ouch.
I agree, CJ, Palmer should be given more responsibility in audibles at the LOS. But then again, this isn't the style of ball this new regime wants. It will be very interesting to see what adjustments are made by the coaching staff and what aren't going to be made.
As far as "if the Raiders going 4-12", sweeping changes will occur if that is the case, player wise. Cause it probably won't be, coaching wise.
The core players are playing for their football lives right now and they come out with an effort like that? Like I wrote earlier, most of the core might not be playing in the NFL in a couple of years, cause their careers will be done.
Palmer could be over in a year or 2
McFadden may not be a fit
Barnes, done, Cooper, done, Wiz, something going on there, Vel is a keeper.
DHB, take a 2nd rounder for him, Moore, who knows, Ford, done.
Seymour, done, Kelly, 2 years? Houston, where is he? Shaunessey, maybe.
McClain, in jail?
Branch, keeper, Huff, done....this is the core from the past
They showed, like the end of last year and so far this year, what they are made of and it ain't pretty.
JONES
I agree with BlandaRocked's assessment of the team. McKenzie is pretty much stuck with whatever cards already dealt by Mr. Davis and he will not be able to build a team to his liking until our salary cap and draft situations improve. Until then, while being hopeful, we should avoid inflated expectations.
After two games, one thing is certain: If we are to have a chance winning games, the offense has to try something different. Meanwhile, the immediate problem is McFadden and ZBS not working well together ... this is a major headache to deal with and the team really needs his production.
Jones,
The reality of the roster is that you are hard pressed to turn over more than 40% of the roster in 1 year.
Correct me if I'm wrong but we did some MAJOR house-cleaning this year to the tune of 23 new additions to a 53 man roster.
To say that DHB, Moore, and Ford could be done would be off-base in the context of young players under reasonable contracts who have been relaively productive when healthy.
The guys that need to go are the vets who have big contracts who haven't produced to the level expected.
The coaching staff needs to think outside the box in gameplanning and be more willing to take calculated risks against teams with more talent.
Empowering Palmer and playing a more aggressive D (tighter coverages, more blitz schemes) would at least be 2 major components in playing to win.
CJ, I am well aware of flipping the roster and what it will take. I don't think Reggie is going to take long to get rid of any player who isn't what he is looking for. He doesn't want injury prone players, or players that aren't true football players, or players who are no longer producing.
The "house cleaning" was mostly to the "depth section" of the team, the core of the team is still there. I would bet that Ford won't be with the team, Moore might and DHB will be gone. The point is, the players that make up the core, probably aren't what they (GM HC) are looking for, IMO. And, that once those players are cut loose, will find themselves hardpressed to find a starting role anywhere else in the NFL. I agree the coaching can be better, point is, pretty hard to win when your 'fighter' is not up to par, do you blame the trainer for that?
JONES
I'm in the camp that believes what we've watched so far falls on the coaches as much as the players.
So far, the Raiders predictable offense is unimaginative beyond belief. They can pass between the end zones but they can't run and they can't score. Knapp doesn’t have the answer, and should be on a very short leash right now.
The most success we’ve had on offense for a decade was when Jackson tailored the scheme to the players strengths. Right now, Knapp is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. If only as a stop-gap, the Raiders should fall back on Jackson’s method for now.
Special teams is a joke, and probably the worst coached group on the team, and in recent memory. Allen took the hit for the long-snapper debacle (which does ultimately fall on him) but why isn't that also on the ST coach? And why are we regularly fielding punts inside the 10 yard line... even at the 2?
Defense is an enigma. I agree some of the core players need to go, but the first team played well in preseason, and they played well in Week 1. Not sure one half in Miami is enough to hit the panic button on defense. I think the jury is still out on this group.
However, the depleted secondary is a huge concern... it was depleted before we lost Bartell and Spencer.
Maybe it’s time to go to a 46 defense.
Jones,
My problem with the statement of "This is how we're going to do it, if you don't like it, we will let you go" philosophy is that should be coming from Reggie, not an Offensive Coordinator.
The OC's job is to use the strengths of his roster to win games. He should be using power blocking for the running game, and both ZBS and power blocking for the passing game. He should be creative in how we move the ball and score, but he's not. He's not even using the basic balance attack. Some of this stuff is basic. The guy is a great position coach, but he is nowhere near a good coordinator. It's frustrating to watch.
Building a team that wins year after year is a long hard slog. It ain't easy! There has to be consistency in coaching, players and scheme. Where I criticized Davis over recent years was in failing of provide the consistency.
But Davis died on the right track. He was building a youthful team based on his offensive and defensive philosophy, lining up the right coaches, and adding a piece or two every off season. If we had more depth, last season, at QB, WR and DB we would have easily made the playoffs.
Anyone who will tell you that injuries don't mean anything in the NFL is either lying or crazy. Injuries expose your depth, and if you don't have depth, you're dead.
We have plenty of players who have proven to be delicate either physically or mentally. They include McFadden, Moore, Ford, Schillens, Chris Johnson, and a few of others. These were also players that have been heavily counted upon.
This is one reason why I objected when McKenzie cleaned out our defensive backfield and replaced them with players also known to be delicate. Now we will have scrapheep players covering our backfield for the majority of the season. Expect the better QBs in the NFL to light us up big time. Big Ben and Manning are salivating right now.
Problems are further exacerbated by the fact that we are completely changing our O and D schemes. Palmer hasn't been a West Coast QB his entire career. McFadden is a clasic power runner who is out of place in a ZBS.
The best QB on the team for the West Coast is Pryor. However, as the listed 3rd stringer, he is getting zero reps and not being developed. I suspect he will go undeveloped, and we will eventually replace Palmer with a more suitable veteran within the next couple of seasons.
None of this should be taken as a lack of faith in McKenzie. I have said repeatedly that McKenzie will have to build what he knows. He cannot continue what Al Davis had in place. McKenzie has to rebuild in his own image to be successful. And that will take a few years. He is also a rookie GM. That means that he will make some rookie mistakes (like bringing in two injury-prone starting CBs).
This is your "be careful what you wish for" moment. The loss of Al Davis as GM didn't gain us anything. It cost us about another three to five years in order to build a consistant winner. We may find the playoffs accidentally before then, but it will not be sustained until all of the pieces fall into place.
And again, the thing that Al Davis did really well through the 1980's was to devise a team personality and to promote HCs from people who grew up in the organization. It looked like Al was trying to go back to that, but now he's gone. It's lost forever.
McKenzie is now on his own to build what he can, but he starts with a skeleton.
I have the patience to endure the journey. It's all part of the legacy. Do you?
Nate, NYR.....can't win a horse race with dogs. Can you see the message it would send to this team if the coaches decided to change back to Hue's Offense? I don't think so, it ain't going to happen.
I've seen the dog in the core group, I'm sure Reggie and Allen see it too. So they will instill their vision and see who can play in it and who can't. I'm getting the feeling that this is what this season is.
Reggie knows where he wants this team to be in a couple of years, IMO, he is probably thinking that he can't do it with this core. I'm not so sure he is really worried about this year, he see's he has a dog in a horse race. There just isn't enough talent to 'coach up', these players are not good enough, NO DOGS ALLOWED.
JONES
To say the Raiders could have easily made the playoffs IF...they didn't, they flopped. The HC questioned their heart at the end of the season, threw them under the bus. Yes Mr.Davis had an 8-8 team, a Headcoach was fired because of that record. All these guys crying for Hue and saying the team was a playoff team...no they weren't. They were a team that showed flashes, but when the chips were down, they wilted, just like in Miami.
As far as the CB's, Routt sucks and was way over priced, Johnson isn't in the NFL....what else could Reggie do? Who was he supposed to bring in? He tried for Porter, but he went to Denver. The rest of the CB's were nothing in calibre, so they had to go. Easily replaced with waiver wire scraps, there was no talent at CB last year. To make it a strong point of the team in an offseason with no top draft picks? How was he supposed to do that?
This team just doesn't have the talent, the core won't be in the NFL in a couple of years = CLUSTERF>>>
As far as patience for the journey....we are all here , aren't we? We have all endured the last 10 years of crap, so what is a few more? As long as the team gets there within a couple/few years, I'll wait.
JONES
That's exactly my point Jones, you hit the overall problem of the Raiders the past 10-11 seasons. Individual pride is more important than winning; from the Head of the Organization, to the Head Coach, to the Coordinators, to the Assistants, to the players. It is a power pride struggle.
Why not be the leader and say, "This isn't going to work doing one thing over the next; so let's game plan for both. Let's do some power blocking for the running game (mixing it with some ZBS), and mainly use ZBS for pass protection." What's wrong with that? That shows more maturity with the coach, and makes the players look bad; but the bottom line is winning, not having your way.
Then you go (as a coach) to the GM and have some of these players removed and replaced; but you let the GM make those moves.
The point I'm making, I see this quality in Tarver, Allen, and McKenzie; I don't see this in Knapp. Not in his first go round, and not now. This is why he has never held a Coordinator spot outside of Oakland and Seattle; but has been a position coach. He lacks leadership mentality; which is sometimes you have to swallow your pride to lead, rebuild, and strategize.
Yes, we have some players on our team that seem to quit and disappear when they don't get their way. Well, let McKenzie cut them, complain to McKenzie; but gameplan with what you have to win the game, instead of winning the power struggle. Let McKenzie do his job to win the power struggles with the players.
On a different note, we are working out Andre Carter again today. Didn't know he had surgery to repair a torn bicep in the offseason, and he may be at or near 100%. Let's hope we sign him.
Raiders are a 3/4 billion franchise. IMO, they can't afford to be so one-dimensional as to implement one way of doing things, and no other. Isn't that what got the Raiders in the mess they're in now?
Strong evidence suggests that McFadden and Palmer don't fit the WC and ZBS being implemented. Yet these are the guys you depend on to score points and be competitive.
If the Raiders want to be multiple, this is their chance.
Time for the coaches to demonstrate their abilities and gameplan around the skills of their roster, for better or worse.
If more drastic changes are afoot, then transition accordingly over the next couple years.
The Raiders, as a business, still needs to sell tickets for seven more home games. That won't happen if they can't improve the product.
Yes, I agree, there should be more trying to "get out of the players what you can" mentality. But then, the new regime would be buckling under to what they want as a team. If they do that, when would the transition begin? It would just be continuing the same path as last year.
The problem with the "I won't budge" mentality in the past regime was, the formula that was used, wasn't workable. The new regime has a 'new' formula, it's what they want this team to be and it starts at day 1. They didn't come to Oakland to adjust for these players, IMO, these players are at the bottom of the barrel and they know it. The past regime treated these players as if they were the cream of the crop, they aren't.
All the high salaries to Kelly, Seymour, Routt, Huff, McClain are way out of line with what they bring to the table...Do you notice when a starter leaves Oakland, he disappears? Do you see Oakland starters leaving this team and starring on another team? Nnamdi?Gallery? Miller? Routt? Wimbley? Campbell? Bush? And these players are what Raider fans are crying for now? And the Great Hue Jackson, who lost the team last year?
The talent/heart hasn't been there. It's still very short in Oakland, I gave the players way too much credit this offseason. My bad.
JONES
It's funny, I was just ruminating about what Jones is saying about our "stars" and what happens to them when they leave.
Before that it was LaMont Jordan and Jerry Porter and Aaron Brooks and Stuart Schweigart...From starter to scrub in the blink of an eye.
The dearth of elite players for so many years is pretty startling.
Jones, I'm not trying to disagree, nor put words in your mouth, but I believe the transition has already begun, and in huge fashion.
I agree with purging the roster, but the 2012 ship has already sailed. If the plan was to completely retool from Day 1, then Seymour and others should already be gone. Keeping these guys is only slowing us down more; and I would have been fine with McKenzie telling fans he's "blowing up the whole building."
The fact that McFadden, Palmer, Syemour, etc., are still part of the Raiders tells me they should implement a plan, stop-gap or otherwise, to gain the best possible results in the competitive spirit of the game.
As a fan, I want the Raiders to win now, then worry about torching the roster in the offseason.
With the right personnel, it shouldn't take multiple years to learn a scheme that already exists in the NFL. These guys aren't reinventing the wheel.
Too, let's not forget we have a rookie coaching staff. The players may be venting some frustration on the field that results from lack of direction... we don't know for sure, and it appears that proper coaching adjustments are not being made. A quick example is the lack of safety help to defend the sideline pattern Lee and Hanson got burned nine times in Miami. That's on the coaches.
I agree with purging the roster, but the 2012 ship has already sailed. If the plan was to completely retool from Day 1, then Seymour and others should already be gone. Keeping these guys is only slowing us down more; and I would have been fine with McKenzie telling fans he's "blowing up the whole building."
>>>>
I agree here too! Right now it looks to me like they are more interested in implementing the ZBS for the future than winning any games. Any games AT ALL. If this is true, why didn't they just cut bait this past off-season and blow up the entire team? Trade McFadden for draft picks, dump Seymour, etc. Was it because they still wanted to sell season tickets?
On a different note, why don't we try Huff at QB, and put Gio at FS? Gio at least has a nose for the ball, even though I can out run him. Huff is next to worthless.. five stinking tackles at FS? Three last Sunday when Miami was in the secondary the entire second half??
Edit above... Huff at CORNER back, not QB. lol!
NYR....if they dumped everyone, who would they get back? They need some bodies, can't fill every position with a waiver wire pick up.
As far as winning now, IMO, these players have shown they can't win now. If they could win with these players, then no "blowing up" would be needed.
Some players had to be kept, if they had dumped Seymour, they still would be on the hook to pay him. Seymour is no better than when Sapp played in Oakland, big money and no return for it. Lets face it, as I am sure Allen and Reggie are, this team has very little talent/desire. I agree with you about the coaching...question is, how do the Raiders play aggressive on Defense when the corners can be burnt at will?
How does the Offense be "big play" when DHB and whoever isn't injured are the starting WR's? A TE that is avg at best? An O-line that can't block? What are the options when the running game is hitting a 2 yrd avg?
This team hasn't had consistent playmakers for years, on both sides of the ball. It keeps coming back to Hue's last PC, he basically called the players DOGS. This last game in Miami proved it to me, that he was right. These players have a new start, 2 games in and they are quitting already? Doesn't that tell us something?
JONES
If winning is not a priority now and the Raiders know they're purging their roster next year for youth and talent, then why keep Seymour over guys like D Hamilton, who had a decent preseason? Let's start the process today, not tomorrow.
Here's something I pulled from a media outlet that struck me as interesting... In approx. one season the Broncos have transitioned their game planning from Orton to Tebow to Manning, tailoring to each QB's strengths, and having some level of success with each one (they won the West).
When Manning came in, they went as far as to incorporate some of the Colts offense.
So why are we force-feeding WC and ZBS on the Raiders when they clearly don't have the right personnel?
As others have said, Palmer would be far more effective running the offense he knows, and McFadden running in a power blocking scheme.
The Broncos will end up winning the division by playing to the strengths of their personnel, and the Raiders will be lucky to go 6-10 while hoping future draft picks and free agents can carry them into a new era.
That just doesn't make sense.
Maybe the donkies actually have something to work with? If the Raider coaches are "force feeding", it's because that's they way they want this team to be. Reggie wants what he wants, he wants Allen to put in the system, obviously. The transition did start at day 1 and we are seeing that the core players aren't adapting, can they? Maybe that "culture" root is too deep? Maybe the talent just isn't there.
Can the new management and HC be so dumb that they cannot adapt to players, or is it, they want the players to play what they (GM/HC) know?
IMO, they (GM/HC) didn't come to Oakland to adapt to players, they came to install their version of what they want for a football team and it started at day 1. I don't think they came in to run Hue's Offense and tinker with players in the Defense. They came in with a plan that goes beyond this year and IMO, they do not invision many of the core to be around when the vision is complete.
If they (GM/HC) thought that they could make a serious run with these players...who knows what it would be. IMO, they know already and the transition is in full swing, can't replace a roster in one off season, so we have to live it. I'm resigned to more waiting, if that's what it takes, then do it.
JONES
Arguably, any vision that can't adapt is short-sighted.
What if Knapp is not the guy? Does that mean McKenzie/Allen must go out and find another WC ZBS OC?
Cause, right now, there's not a lot of faith in Knapp among the Raider Nation. I'm guessing he's about two more similar performances away from getting "Cabled" again.
There must be some reason the Raiders retained Al Saunders.
Their vision is long term, IMO, it would be short sighted to try and win with this core. They have flat out quit, TWICE in less than 1 year.
I don't think Reggie is reading the comments of Raider fans to decide on what his vision will be. They have a plan, these players need to play up to the plan, if they can't, they will be replaced.
Does any Raider fan want to keep trying to believe in players that can't do it? Are you telling me this core is good enough? That the coaching and management should throw away their vision to try and get another 8-8 out of this core?
I'm sure they have a plan and it doesn't involve Hue's Offense or Mr Davis' Defense. I am sure they are not going to panic if this season is a bust. I would bet that they would almost expect it and have planned for it. And I am thinking that the plan will not include almost all of the core players in a year or 2.
We are in for more change and we may as well get our heads around it, believing in these players will just bring more heartbreak. They aren't good enough, Reggie knows it but he can't come out and say it, maybe at the end of the year. I know my view has done a 180 in 2 games, I started to believe in these players, now seeing them quit like they did Sunday, again...take the dogs for a walk.
JONES
Coaching vs players, part2,
Those that still need more convincing.
Here is a quote from Tommy Kelly, after Miami game.
"We have the talent, but we have to do it on Sundays".
LOL...I'm rollin on the floor. How funny that Kelly still thinks the fans are buying this.
He sounds like a broken record, saying same damn thing EVERY year.
Get some new material Kelly !!!!
Here is a quote from Reggie Bush after game.
"We knew if we kept running at them, we would break their spirit".
OK, so, what else is new. Every team in league knows how Raiders will quit when going gets tough.
We need players that won't quit, or have their spitit broken.
Mark my words. 2 full drafts, and free agent signing periods to get job done.
Will have to watch these losers for a little while longer. Sigh.
Reggie Bush said that? Wonder how the players feel about that quote? Do they just shrug and say "that's just how it is in Oakland"? If it is, there must be a shitstorm in the meetings with the coaches.
Maybe the coaches are too hard on the players, they are used to being half awake in meetings? Not being pointed out as DOGGING IT. It's going to get interesting...only in Oakland does this happen, or maybe, used to happen.
JONES
My expectations:
McKenzie/Allen will work their plan & vision of what they want this team to beoome.
McKenzie will be very aggresssive in acquiring additional draft picks in 2013, continue to clear cap space, and use 2nd tier free agents, the waiver wire, and draft picks to add talent & depth.
The core of the Raiders roster in 2013 will be young players with 0-5years of experience (0 equating to draft picks).
This transitional year is going to be uglier than I anticipated. Players with heart, desire, talent, and strong work ethic have a potential future with the Raiders or possibly another NFL team. The players who quit, continue to make the same mistakes will be cut at season's end and/or out of the league.
The one saving grace would seem to be organizational stability and McKenzie & Allen having a clear idea of what they want and how to build the team when the clouds lift and afford them the chance to build next year.
Jones, the current roster players don't want to fail. This is what they do for a living. And what about the players who weren't previously exposed to the Raiders' culture of losing?
I'm not saying the Roster can't be improved, nor that it won't be over time. That's a given.
What I'm saying is that I've seen as much coaching failure as I have player failure up til now.
Plenty of miscues by coaching... special teams blunders, lack of adjustments, unimaginative playing calling. It's all there.
The Raiders 0-2 start is a team effort, coaches and players alike.
I will go out on a limb and say that the Raiders will play to win this Sunday.
If Reggie is going to shit can the roster, the players will need resumes. Let the resume process begin!
Does anyone like to fail? Doesn't mean we can all be top flight NFL players, does it? HEART, desire, talent, it all goes together. If a players is missing some of those qualities, it will mean he is not as 'good'.
The core is supposed to be the leadership on this team and they were guilty of quitting, or letting their "spirit taken away", wow, that looks good on a resume, right?..... and what about the "other players"? I see Burris and Wheeler trying their asses off. Corners? both injured. Briesel? Not impressed with him, if Knapp recommended him...if there was a coach to go, odds would be in his favor.
Other than that, who else is there, but the core? So to point at the "other guys" and wonder why they are quitting? Dogging it? I would say no.
As far as the coaching....throw any coach into this CLUSTERF>>> and see how it would go down. It's hard to be a fancy O with duds. Don't tell me it's all the ZBS, even when these guys are pass blocking one on one, they aren't doing it. There are no holes in the running game, the RB is met by a couple of defenders at the LOS everytime. Can anyone make a block? Palmer is trying, but who does he throw to? A guy who missed all of preseason? A guy who really isn't a #1 Wr? A guy they just picked up on waivers? No running game? That's a whole lot of nothing right there. Can this be blamed on the OC? Palmer had 240 yrds at halftime on Sunday, could have had a TD if McFadden catches it.
Long snapper goes down early in their 1st game as HC, it slipped by having a backup ready...if you listen to those in the league, they say it's pretty common that a backup long snapper isn't much of a thought. Pants down on that one.
I see lack of adjustments, what else could they do with this lineup? Corners are a mess, now you can't blitz much because they have to make up for lack of talent there. D-line, which I thought was going to be hard to handle, are not getting the job done. McClain doing his best last year impersonation on Sunday, keeps that up, he may as well go to jail.
Coaches could do better and I'm guessing they will, players are another story.
JONES
If they fire coach Allen before 2015, I'm gone... A football coach should get close to a presidential term to completely change things. Enough is enough. I will happily enjoy NFL Football without spending time on a poorly owned and led squad. Reggie, I hope you read this. You'll NEVER get a stadium if this keeps up. Loyalty goes beyond victories, as does class.
PRO, or GO.
*Football stadium, that is...
Reggie isn't going to give up on Allen until he has his players in place. Reggie isn't going to judge Allen with this core. I think Reggie see's these players for what they are...a CLUSTERF>>>.
JONES
Jones - You're understandably hard on the players, but you're also very forgiving of the coaching.
This may sound cliche, but adjustments are part of the game at every level. Also, the unimaginative playcalling isn't going to correct itself with a better roster. We’ll see better execution perhaps, but the same vanilla plays are too predictable to succeed.
I doubt Allen/McKenzie will watch Knapp stumble through an entire season without making a change at OC. By extension, I don’t see the Raiders cutting bait on 2012 after 2 games, even if could be labeled for the greater good of the future.
IMO, the Raiders need to find a balance between their short-term and long-term goals... one which includes putting players and the team in the best possible position to win now.
NYR...in the words of Mike Singletary..." Can't win with these type of players, can't do it, won't do it. Need players that will show up on Sunday". Lets face it, the players are dogs, can't win a horse race with dogs, can't do it, won't happen, don't care if you are Vince Lombardi, can't do it, Reggie won't do it. Reggie is pulling in players like no other team to tryout...doesn't that tell you something?
JONES
As far as "forgiving of the coaching"...they have had only 2 games to show themselves with a pack of dogs...the players (core) have been here too long, seen what they are made of, not good enough, can't win with these players, can't do it....
JONES
Yup, and like I said, not that they will miss 'me", but if they cut Allen before 2015 because of team performance, see ya. They will always be my "AFCW" team, no doubt, but i will simply be as committed as they are: Observing.
Jones said, "in the words of Mike Singletary..." Can't win with these type of players, can't do it, won't do it. Need players that will show up on Sunday". Lets face it, the players are dogs, can't win a horse race with dogs, can't do it, won't happen, don't care if you are Vince Lombardi, can't do it, Reggie won't do it. Reggie is pulling in players like no other team to tryout...doesn't that tell you something?"
It is amazing how Singletary said that, and Jim Harbaugh comes in and is winning with the same roster. This year, he added Manningham, Moss, and Jacobs.
I don't buy that it is all the players, I think it is both. In this case, I think it is the offensive coach not coaching to the strengths that he has offensively. Again, I get not buckling to player demands, but he needs to balance his game plan that will put us in a position to win. Knapp doesn't have that attitude, he wants it his way or no way; and that doesn't work in anything in life.
I want my children to be more successful in life than I am; to accomplish that as a parent, I cannot force how I live my life on them. I have to give them advice as to what I do, and allow them to research things for themselves, and come to their own resolve. My job as a parent is to guide them to make the best possible choice they could make for themselves.
Does this mean I give them everything they want? No. It means they have to respect my decision as a parent/authority in their life if I decide they don't need it. Does this mean I am relinquishing my authority? Absolutely not. It is teaching them to make good decisions as a person that will help them succeed in life after I am gone. Does it mean that I know everything? Absolutely not. It means I put myself in a position to learn some things that I may not have thought about, and possibly better myself as well.
This is what coaching is like. This is what I see lacking in Knapp as a Coordinator, not only this year, but in 2009. This is why I was and still am, unimpressed with him as a Coordinator and still think that he will never be successful in this position. This is the same reason why Singletary was not successful in San Fran, and why Harbaugh is.
Yes, players still have responsibility to execute. Again, as a Coordinator, your job is to put them in the best position to win with the talent they show you. The coaches should be communicating with the GM who is working and who isn't. But the Coordinators should and are held responsible for putting the team in the best position to execute plays and win. Knapp is not doing that.
Jones - I believe the frequency of tryouts has a lot to do with injuries and a depleted secondary. Hard to be sure if this amount of activity happens otherwise. I'd be happy to think it would.
We can agree to disagree on the problems the Raiders have faced early on.
My opinion is unchanged by our discussion (and it's safe to sday yours is too). I see rookie coaches making rookie mistakes, and I see failure across an otherwise underperforming roster. These are fairly simple observations.
I predict both the players and coaches will improve in the coming weeks. I'm actually predicting a dogfight (not to use your expression of "dogs") this Sunday. I think the Raiders can beat the Steelers.
Then again, I certainly won't be surprised to see how wrong I can be, particularly if Knapp dials up the same vanilla offense. Clearly, the 2012 Raiders are a work in progress.
Tell ya what Nate....give these big boys a long time out, or maybe a stand in the corner for an hour? Maybe, just outright slap them around?
Harbagh was given a gift, their team was set for big things because they have the talent etc. That talent was helped and setup for Harbagh by "can't do it, can't win with these players". Harbagh has done a good job...what do you think Harbagh would have done if he came to Oakland and the team quit in game 2?
This is the NFL, not some school club for boys. This is for big bucks, not for giving your son unconditional love. The new regime wants it they way they see it, and it isn't looking like they see it your way. GM/HC want the team to be what they want, their vision probably doesn't include quitters and or soft players.
Maybe there is a power struggle, if people are writing it so much on the Internet, must be reasonable to think some players might be saying it to. Coaching staff want it one way, players wanting another, ya never know.
Coaches came into the camps with a certain design, a certain way of doing things. This is what they have taught them since DAY 1. The players give up in GAME 2...no coddling or nursery rhymes are going to cure that.
Then, in 'fans' logic, they expect the coaches to give up on what they have practised since DAY 1 and go back to last years design....are you kidding me? What message does that send the players? It sends them INMATES OWN THE HOUSE. Do you want that to continue?
JONES
"It is amazing how Singletary said that, and Jim Harbaugh comes in and is winning with the same roster.'
**********************************
Nate, not exactly the same situation.
When Harbaugh showed up in SF, did he have NO draft picks ? No cap space due to terrible contracts.
You noted how SF added 3 impact free agents in offseason.
Did Reggie/Raiders, have cap space to add impact players ?
Reggie first has to get the house in order, then he can shape the roster.
Right now, Reggie watching to see who are the quitters, and complainers.
I wouldn't be surpised if 2 years fom now, there is less then ten players remaining from current roster.
Jones, there team was not set for big things. A lot of the same things were being said about the 9ers as were being said about the Raiders, especially Vernon Davis and Alex Smith! These 2 guys were about to be shown the door, not only by management, but the fans had already written them off!
Harbaugh came in, utilized their strengths as players, and now they are the toast of the bay area and potentially Super Bowl contenders.
I don't think there is a power struggle. I think there is a better way to use the strengths of the players and lay the foundations to implement and improve the system you want to use by utilizing ZBS in certain situations, and using power blocking in others. Mix up the plays, mix up the schemes! It is what they are doing on defense, why can't they do it on offense? Because the coach doesn't want to do it any other way but his own!
I'll ask a question to all, if you were HC and the team quit on you in the 2nd game, what would you do?
a) coddle them and tell them that you love them?
b) re-arrange the Offense to more like last years model and show total lack of confidence in the OC?
c) get really pissed off and lose respect for the players?
d) understand that these players aren't good enough and continue with what was started from DAY 1?
JONES
JONES,
The anwser is an obvious D.
But I would say this.
The best the Raiders defense has looked in recent yrs was when John Marshall was DC.
The best the Raiders offense looked was with Hue.
I would have loved to see Hue and Marshall get to coach together at same time.
Just curious how that would have worked out.
I like how you left out the other side of the ball, their Defense. If it wasn't for their Defense, the Offense was just avg at best. Who was the one that told Vernon Davis to go hit the showers until you learn how to be a Pro player? Tell me Singletary had no influence on what Davis is now. Smith was a top pick QB, Harbagh has made him a servicable QB, it's the Defense that wins it for them and that was already there as well as the running game. The team was ready for Harbagh, he saw it, he took it and good for them.
JONES
Probably would have gone 8-8, Marshall was good at times, when he rebelled, Hue and Sanders, Sanders doesn't get enough of the credit, he was making the gameplans, Hue just called the plays on Sunday. But then you would have the same talent, you know, their spirits get broken? Can't win , can't do it....
JONES
Raiders in-season scouting is working overtime. Tryouts and roster moves have been brisk.
It's really encouraging to see.
Raiders signed a DB off the Packers practice squad. That's how the Raiders lost Sterling Moore last year. He now plays (I think starts) for the Pats.
IMO, exposing Moore to our practice squad was the worst personnel move the Raiders made in 2011.
Despite my concerns about coaching, I really believe Raiders management has made a 180 degree turn for the better under McKenzie.
Here's further evidence that coaching has not been up to snuff so far. From the media:
"For the record, Wisniewski looked much more capable snapping the ball [in practice today] than Goethel did in practice a week ago."
How could it not have been obvious to use the game center over Goethel... particularly after the first grounder?
I have the upmost confidence in Dennis Allen, but his rookie learning curve might be steeper than this single game-changing incident. We shall see.
I expect Allen to ride Knapp and force him to open an NFL-ready playbook.
Was Wiz playing in the 1st game?
JONES
"Raiders in-season scouting is working overtime. Tryouts and roster moves have been brisk.
It's really encouraging to see.".....
Why is that so encouraging? Who wants to see their team bringing a boatload of waiver wire players? It only shows how lacking the roster is. It shows that the coaches see a lot of holes in the roster, that's encouraging?... Can't win with them, can't do it...
JONES
Using a hybrid type of offense (and defense) that is multiple in looks but has core principles is what I think is best for the team in the short AND long term.
Even if ZBS blocking and west coast offesnse is your staple, mixing in other plays and schemes in certain situations makes sense to maximize the talent on hand.
Yes, I realize the ZBS/WC has been drilled since day 1. However, there is no reason that a package of plays tailored to certain players couldn't be incorporated into the playbook.
No huddle, audibles, power blocking sweep runs etc. are basic components of any offensive playbook which any coach should be able to install and player execute.
In my view, the arguments about the offense are not quite as black and white, all or nothing, one way or another. You can have a core philosophy or system while at the same time be flexible enough to incorporate other wrinkles to find ways to put players in MORE situatuions to succeed.
If DA/McK/Knapp believe ZBS/WC is what the core offenive identity should be, I'm fine with that as long as there is a willingness to incorporate some additional hybrid, mulitiple ingredients to the offensive playbook.
"Was Wiz playing in the 1st game?"
The point is, a pro center backing up at long-snapper is infinitely more obvious than a LB, particularly after that LB rolled a grounder in his first attempt.
Meanwhile, it took two weeks after the fact for news to surface that the Raiders actually tried their center as a backup at LS.
"Why is [Tryouts and roster moves] so encouraging?"
IMO, it demonstrates that rookie management is agressively scouting players and is not sitting on its hands in-season, as sometimes seemed to be the case for past management.
"It shows that the coaches see a lot of holes in the roster...."
No. They signed DBs, which fills a void created by injury, and they're scouting depth. Would you prefer they didn't?
Jones, I think we all get that you're fed up with the players. No need to spin everything to bash the roster and protect questionable coaching decisions.
"Jones, I think we all get that you're fed up with the players. No need to spin everything to bash the roster and protect questionable coaching decisions."...
NYR...there is no need to spin anything, it's plain to see. I'm not protecting the coaches, I have written that they can do better. You point to a long snapper getting injured during a game and that the backup should have been the starting C. I asked you if that C was dressed for the game...who said it "took them 2 weeks to try him as a long snapper"? You draw that conclusion because a reporter said he saw Wiz practising long snaps? Who is spinning?
Also, around the league, it is very common that teams don't practise a backup at long snapper. I wrote the Coach was caught with his pants down, what else you want? You want me to write that the Coach is bunk because he didn't foresee the long snapper going down in his 1st game? How bout you stop telling me what I should write?
JONES
I'm trying to be as objective as I can. I apologize if I am misinterpreting your statements.
You seem to be very one-sided on the issue of players vs coaching through two games.
I strongly believe coaching has cost us as much as the players failure to execute, and some of that goes hand in hand.
My point about the center wasn't whether Wiz was dressed for the game (I don't know for sure), it was that Parsons was, and he seemed like a better choice than Goethel. It shouldn't have taken three consecutive botched long snaps by Goethel to figure that out.
After the first botch, Goethel was the player on the sideline practicing snaps, not Parsons, and not both players.
Afterward, the Raiders went to the trouble of signing a backup LS when it turns out Wiz is rather proficient at it.
And to simply write it off because others around the league don't account for a backup LS is kind of
lame, isn't it?
I would guess many teams have a backup plan at LS, but nobody's coming right out and saying the Raiders totally F'd up. Personally, I've never seen anything like it.
Besides, doing only what is typical in the league makes us typical.
Hopefully, your expectation for the Raiders is to be smarter than the average team.
you switched from Wiz to Parsons...ya, whatever. How many times have you seen a long snapper knocked out of a game? What's that? 0? and it happens in the 1st game and that is your " ah ha" momement? Who is spinning?
JONES
Coaches get 3 years or I am out. If they can't pick leaders, this never ends. Alas, I have discovered the problem. No Conviction.
I didn't switch. Just making a point. You asked if Wiz dressed. I only made an observation that a shotgun-trained center is a better option than a LB for backup LS. It's not brain surgery. The fact that Wiz did so well as LS in practice only validates my point.
Your case rests on the notion that nobody has a backup plan. That questionable theory aside, it doesn't justify a poor coaching decision to watch three consecutive botched snaps without making a change.
That level of futility was actually exceeded last Sunday when the Raiders watched two of their CBs get burned on the same exact play nine times without making an adjustment in the coverage.
Listen, I'm confident Allen will learn from these mistakes, but I can't pretend like they didn't happen. That's why I can't blame the players entirely for the 0-2 hole we're in.
OTB - maybe you should lose the Raider shield avatar if you're only on a 3-year plan. Just a suggestion.
"Your case rests on the notion that nobody has a backup plan. That questionable theory aside, it doesn't justify a poor coaching decision to watch three consecutive botched snaps without making a change."....
Oh my, which comes back to the point of....was Wiz playing in that game? If Wiz was not playing, how does the coach make the switch to him? Goethel was his only choice? Maybe Wiz was in mind to be the #2 long snapper, but, wasn't available? So that means he had to go to #3 option? Like I said, how many long snappers do you see knocked out of a game? And then the 2nd option out as well...what would you do?
As far as coverage adjustment, once again, if the talent isn't there, the DC may be handcuffed on what he calls. Instead of giving up the big play, they had to settle for the out. If the talent isn't there, what do you want him to do? Imagine if he had 11/ 15 year olds out there, it wouldn't matter if he blitzed every play, or adjusted to the out pattern. No pass rush, not stopping the run, corners that should not be considered avg talent...you want the coaches to put the pads on?
The guys at the corners are limited and are fringe players at best, so they try to make them earn the yards instead of one big play after another. Which happened anyways when Bush made like Eugene 'Mercury' Morris.
With this 'talent', maybe the best they can do is keep it from being a blow out. Water into wine ain't easy.
JONES
NYR, you say he should have went to Parsons....if all Centers can be a long snapper because they are a Center, why is the Raiders snapper getting paid 1.5 mill(?) to just be a long snapper? Not all Centers can be a long snapper or have ever been one. You assume that because he is a Center that it would automatically make him better than a LB. Long snapping is a specialty. Goethel's second snap in that game was perfect, blocking was blown and the punt was blocked, don't forget that.
JONES
Harrison and Polamalu are out this Sunday. It looks like McClain cleared concussion tests because he was practicing today. Good news for us.
Should make Palmer's day a little easier. If McFadden can get a few holes to run through....just show the fans that they can compete for a full 4 qrtrs. That to me, would be progress.
JONES
Even with no Harrison and Polamula, Steelers are coming to knock Raiders out cold.
They will punch in the face, hit in the head, kick'em on the ground.
You know, like Raiders used to play.
It's what Al Davis understood better then anyone.
You can have all the nice rules you want. Once the game starts, one team will try to bully the other.
The Raiders used to be the bullies. Now they are the chubby kids with their lunch money stolen away.
So here come the big, bad Steelers.
Will the Raiders fight, or run ?
We shall see.
Jones, you keep side-stepping common sense.
Your shotgun-trained professional center is an obvious first look for backup long-snapper when you are presented with no other options.
I get Allen marching Goethel out on the first attempt, under the presumption Goethel had opportunity to long-snap in HS.
However, the stupidity of trying him on three consecutive failed attemps without giving your center a look (even on the sideline) grows with each failed attempt.
This discussion is comical. It really doesn't matter at this point. All eyes are on this Sunday.
Cheers!
Once again NYR...his 2nd snap was perfect, the punt was blocked.
JONES
More "rookie" coaching mistakes, difficulties with guys off the waiver wire neediing to make contributions, backups in key roles, and unfortunately, more poor execution with newly installed sytems ...
yup, more growing pains which ultimately I can live with if I see (a) improvements (b) exerted efforts (c) adjustments (d) improvements and most importantly (e) passionate balls to the wall spirit.
Laying down, quitting, not making in game, week to week adjustments, mistakes made continually, poor discipline, and a lack of will to win IS NOT EXCUSABLE on any possible level.
"Once again NYR...his 2nd snap was perfect, the punt was blocked"
It was far from "perfect." The snap was lobbed back to Lechler and that's at least partly why he didn't have enough time to get it off. First blocked punt of Lechler's career!!
On a related note, special teams coaching has been terrible ever since Fassel "left."
NYR, fair to say that if there was never a commitment to excellence, many of us would not be fans at all, bub. Defining a commitment to excellence relates to the old logo. Sooner they commit to personnel, the sooner excellence can return. You may now return to being all butt-hurt. Arrgh. (Oops, sorry, I forgot some of you are in it for the logo, colors and attitude. i am in it for professionally-executed football. I'd like to see some). Go Oak.
OTB -
"...I forgot some of you are in it for the logo, colors and attitude."
You have me mistaken for somebody else, Homes.
"...i am in it for professionally-executed football."
In other words, you are a fair weather fan. I get it.
Nope. Just the opposite, son. Fair weather fans cry when the team loses and want to fire the coaches. That's obviously not my point. At least I have a basis for following a team, which, tome, appears to be reasonable.
...but if that is a "Raider fanatics" definition of a fair-weather fan, so be it. I am a casual observer. I don't get pissed when "they" lose. I laugh at those who have bad Mondays because the talented mob played like bums unworthy of conversation. Enjoy Sunday. Go Oak. But i think Pittsburgh will rule the match, decidedly. I hope they surprise everyone, including me, because they have the talent. Honestly, this team will be 0-5. But, with swagger? Hmmmph, we will see, won't we...?!
Who said anything about firing coaches? I was just having a discussion with Jones.
As fans, we all choose what level of commitment works best for us. You stated several times above that you're three and done with this team. I could poke (more) fun at that statement but, honestly, that demonstrates you're not as "casual" a fan as you think. You want results. We all do.
I'll trump your poor forecast and repeat that I think the Raiders will present the Steelers with a dog fight this Sunday. I am rooting for a win!
In case you haven't read this, Raiders formner 2nd round pick, CB DVD, was signed by the Steelers, and has been a standout special teams performer for them.
Both DVD and Chekwa remain a mystery in terms of why McKenzie and Allen were so quick to pull the plug on them.
With the currently depleted secondary, I really expected Chekwa to make his way back to the roster... if for no other reasons than he has the speed to track the Steelers WRs and he's familiar with the Raiders defense.
Not too late for a roster announcement, but this is a real head scratcher.
NY, I don't read your posts, or Jones' for that matter, unless I happen to see an OTB, which, in your case, I caught out of the corner of me' unpatched eye. I don't really ever react to statements the minions post, I simply made a statement based on how they have rolled (downhill) over a string of seasons, and that is my line. You got one? You probably do, but can't see past the fog of war. That's ok. Enjoy the ether!
...but I gotta hand it to ya NYR, you know your stuff. If this only a den for RaiderAddicts, I am definitely the odd man out. I will always call it like I see it! Let's just say I dig Raiderball, but can't stand the rotating of coaches.
No fog of war here. I am simply making what I believe are accurate observations while watching the light at the end of the tunnel get brighter.
I took exception to your three and done comment. Frankly, it's ironic that you might have survived the last 10 years but suddenly you realize you may have had enough... at a time when the heavy lifting has just begun.
OTB,
I think most of us want Dennis Allen to have a long, successful career as the Raiders Head Coach.
Would be thrilled if we find our guy for the next decade!
I also believe that McKenzie will allow Allen to grow into the job and that we've got to get through this tough year and begin to build in earnest in years 2 and 3.
What I find odd, perplexing, and rather dubious is a fan putting a specific time-table on remaining a fan. Huh?
Whenever I hear "If x,y, and z don't happen by such and such, I'm gone" I seriosuly question the loyalty of the fan.
Just for argument's sake, let's say that after 3 years, the Raiders and Allen are continuing to struggle mightily - take it another step - let's say Reggie has an opportunity to hire a new Heead Coach to change the dynamic of the organization ... what would you say?
My point is simple: The GM needs to evaluate his Head Coach and players and whenever possible and in the best interest of the team, find ways to upgrade the talent level and overall fit.
Make no mistake though. I desperately want Allen to succeed and for their to be long-term stability.
It just seems that you are slightly out of touch with reality if you don't understand the topsy-turvy tenure of coaches and players.
You guys crack me up! Ask yourselves: What would cost me my allegiance to this team, or, maybe why do I like them? Everyone has a line. Like, um, on the extreme side, "Oakland Alameda Al Quaeda Day!" I think any reality based fan would obviously jump ship. Ok, now that I have your attention, students, the POINT here is, (time to think now boys)... what is your "line"...? Mine happens to be organizational loyalty. Why? it takes tome to gel. Find a good coach, invest in him, and help him with staff and support. IF the owners can do this, well, you got yourself a fun, loyal squad. Loyalty is more important to me than victory, so who I follow is based on a history of that. Oak used to be that way. Leadership 101. So, why are you a fan... nostalgia, or reality? I'm listening.
and, in closing, if Allen gets churned like Callahan, Gruden, White, Kiffin, the list goes on (Al Davis era), who want's that anyway? "The Nation" certainly won't miss me, as much as the bar doesn't miss the guy who stops by for a beer twice a year... and there will be no love lost, but certainly, less time spent on non-committal.
I really would like to see Pitt fizzle this week, despite their exemplary commitment to coaching. :)
OTB,
I really don't know if I have a "line" for jumping ship.
Speculative mumbo jumbo like "Al Quaeda Day" is pretty childish.
I honestly can't think of any realistic scenario. There may come a day in the not too distant future where I know longer follow the Raiders avidly, lose interest in following the team, or just stop following the NFL completely.
I understand the principles of organizational loyalty which in my book is giving each individual the tools, support, and an opportunity to succeed.
This would include players, coaches, HC, GM all the way down to the entire support staff to include Joe the Accounting Clerk.
At the end of the day, performance (to include Joe the Accounting Clerk) dictates tenure of employment.
The question which is always up for debate is how much time do you give a Head Coach to prove their worth?
It really depends on so many factors and variables that goes into how long a head coach lasts.
My personal belief is that Allen deserves a min. of 3 years.
What is likely to change in the new era is the 1 and done, and 2 and done tenures that littered the prevous 10 years of revolving door head coaches.
1. It was an example, students.
2. Most of you take this way too seriously.
3. 3 years. Agreed.
Win, lose or draw, enjoy.
I'm confused. It's all about loyalty, but it's conditional? Doesn't sound like loyalty to me.
What it boils down to for OTB is "do as I say not as I do",
OTB wants unconditional loyalty shown to our Head Coach yet he won't give unconditional loyalty to the team.
Allen is in a tough, competitive business where he will earn the right from 1 year to the next the distinct privilege and honor to be 1 of 32 head coaches.
I have faith in Alllen. I have faith in McKenzie. It is going to take a concerted effort and coherent plan to get this team pointed in the right direction.
The adversity that Allen is facing will either make him a stronger leader over the course of the next few years or he will be looking for a defensive staff position with another team.
This is the reality of the business that these men have chosen. Giving Allen 3 years to show that he has the right stuff is fair and reasonable. However, after year 3, if the team is going nowhere fast, it is reasonable to expect a change to made at Head Coach.
The question that I have for you ... will you still be a loyal Raider fan in 2015?
"OTB"...
I admire your loyalty and commitment as a Raider Fan!!!...
But don't expect it from these fare weather "Mutinous Dogs"...They be what they have always been...Crawlers upon the "Trail-o-Tears" in their "Valley-o-Doom-n-Gloom"!!!
Nothing else and that's an established FACT!!!
Just Support Baby!!!...
PantyRaider....."Abandon Ship" Is The Cry Of A Coward!!!!//_
....some of you get it, some of you dont. I get that. Play ball.
...and, Calico, let's see a little Commitment to Excellence in 2012-13 first. Mediocre leadership does not earn loyalty. ...at least mine. But yeah, I'll always dig Raiderball, but I'll also lose interest if they aren't who they were for the majority of their existence. Four quarters. Enjoy the game.
This comment has been removed by the author.
...appreciate the fire Panty. In SoCal, so many Oak fans are really just "other team haters" who dive in for cameraderie at work. That's lame. Like most Charger fans are really just "raider haters"... but, for good reason: The Oak Fans they know are not even football fans, they just talk smack year after year. It's embarrassing, liek they live in the past. I just tell them: earn three trophies, I'll give you thirty years to do it, then we can talk. They shoosh pretty quick.
3 years, a good start. Go Oak.
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