Five Postgame Takes
2. This game was the pure inverse of the previous game. It was a game at home against a bad team that we easily could have lost, as opposed to an away game against a formidable team that we easily could have won.
3. I'm sort of stunned that we managed to turn a home game against another 1-4 team, minus its Pro Bowl running back and starting quarterback, into a grinding, hard-fought battle. One the one hand, I'm impressed that we won. On the other, I'm sort of horrified that it was such a battle in the first place.
4. "Half a Clown Car." That wasn't my idea, it was Angelic Raider who coined it in the aftermath, with others chiming in. It's hard for me to break out any sort of Clown Car after a victory. But I've gotta run with it, because it makes me laugh, and it's fairly apropos.
5. That first half was UGLY. It looked like something straight from Shell-Kiffin-Cable-Jackson. A lot of teams go through regime changes, and through the resulting fits and starts, but manage to at lease struggle in a different way than before. Take the Rams and Buccaneers. They were horrible last year. This year, they're not great, but at least they look different. With those teams, there's a vivid sense of change on the field. Whether or not it goes anywhere in the long run remains to be seen, but it's definitely different. Which you would expect from a regime change. Yet for much of this season, the Raiders have looked the same as always, like a carbon copy of Shell-Kiffin-Cable-Jackson. You can blame the players. You can blame the coaches. You can blame both. But I just think it really, really weird and inexplicable.
Anyhow, in the preceding Guest Take, The5er asked for patience, and the Raiders bought some today. If they suddenly get their collective heads together and perform an inverse of last year (strong start, inept finish), there's still a chance to make some divisional noise. Crazier things have happened.
posted by Raider Take at 9:19 PM
59 Comments:
At least they didn't tank, if their starting QB was able to continue, they might of. Carson Palmer is the heart of the team right now. He is fighting through a poor O-line, questionable wideouts, no running game and still hitting 300 yrd games. He made some errors today, but he is the guy that leads the team. Keeps them from throwing in the towel.
I am seeing no fight in McFadden, LT has become a problem, RG is a problem, RT is a problem, C and RG messed up too.
Defense is making way to many mental errors, Gabbert was having his way with them, Henne was horrible. They went completely conservative by the comments Wheeler made after the game. Made the D look like world beaters.
Sounds like Knapp lit the team up at halftime and it seemed to help. This team needs their asses kicked to snap them out of their fog. How could they come out in a fog against a team like that in their own park with a big win on the line? Most of the hope created vs Atl, back 2 steps, as is their history.
JONES
Is there a single person on offense that is playing better this year than last? Or even close to the same? The defense looks improved at times, but isn't it obvious that the coaching on the o side is hideous?
The only time the offense looks competent at all is when CP is calling his own plays at the line. Is this a coincidence?
I sure don't think so.
All the defenses do anymore is stack the line in early downs, and then have an all out blitz on third down and we have absolutely no answer to any of it.
After Knapp gets fired (hopefully after this season, but more likely after next) he will be like Breshnahan... completely out of football.
How can one guy make every single player he is in charge of WORSE?
Its painful to watch.
"Where did I say that was on the players? I was pointing out that vs the other worst team in the league, on their own field, they had to win by pulling off the FG team and throwing a desperate pass to DHB and got a call."
Ok. And I'm asking what was the FG unit even doing on the field?
Who's the rocket scientist that sent the FG unit out there and forced them to waste a critical time out to pull them back off the field?
Were these infallible coaches even contemplating a field goal attempt, down by 7 with 3 minutes left?
The left side of the line's inability to pick up a stunt is appalling.
PS
NYR, it was 4th and 10 with 4 minutes left when DHB was PI'd in the endzone. Can you ever get the facts straight? There was some confusion on what they were going to do, thus the T.O. Again, you are going to point at one play all week and write "see, the coaches are crap".
I am not going to pretend that these coaches are hall of fame, but when the players come out like that vs a shit team, at home, season on the line. Don't make me go 'Mike' again.
Gary....the Raiders are ranked 18th overall on Offense and ranked 9th in passing. Right now, it doesn't matter if this line is pass blocking, straight or zone blocking, and they are doing both, they stink.
Then McFadden is running like he just doesn't care. He is going down easy, unable or unwilling to cutback and hit a hole.
As far as the blitzing, do you see the O-line screwing up on almost every play? I do, they are making errors. I saw Cooper blocking the same guy as Veldheer a couple of times while his guy flies in and thumps Palmer. I saw Smith getting burned, over and over. I saw Veldheer getting burnt more than a couple of times. Every play, Palmer is getting harrassed. Briesel is looking sad as well. I saw Palmer over throw a wide open Moore, I saw DHB drop a big gain, I saw mental errors everywhere. When does it fall on the players?
I know every Raider fan on these sites is screaming that they hate Knapp, he isn't out there playing and making all these errors that causes these plays to blow up. I see plays that can work, IF the players would just execute. For whatever reasons, the players mess it up as per their history.
As far as blaming Knapp for "making every player worse", that's a joke....they are what they are, play without the mental errors and let's see what they can do. We haven't seen that, same mistakes over and over.
Palmer said Knapp blasted the team at halftime, good for him. Maybe that's what these players need, a good boot in the arse to get their brains into it. They were braindead in the 1st half in a very important game, that is not on the coaches.
JONES
The HalfClown, haha, good one, Take! They got off easy... Perhaps the graphics dept @ Lucasfilm would be so kind to allow us to be LogoMorph an Ewok instead of the Vader, as they probably need to sell more of those fuzzy, unpopular toys this year.
Though not too formidable, them little guys won with a litle help, like he Oaks this weekend. Go EWOKS. May the Schwartz be with them this weekend too...
(PS It's dangerous outh there in the AFC West, so, "Don't Go Solo, (Bring a Wookie!)"
Enjoying the fight,
OakTown
JONES, you are a moron. Plain and simple. You don't even get close to understanding that this is almost the EXACT SAME ROSTER as last year, where they went 8-8 and very close to being in the postseason.
QB's are going to overthrow receivers. Receivers are going to drop a ball. It happens in football, to the best of them. How you can call our current WR corps "questionable" is totally beyond me. And yes, this includes DHB who is not a bad receiver at all and above all a tough competitor.
All of this right here in 2012 has "Josh McDaniels in Denver" written all over it. Change just for changes's sake, question everything, even stuff that worked perfectly like DMC and leave a total wreck behind. A year wasted.
from michael huff: “It’s funny, we played well last week and lost,” cornerback Michael Huff said. “This week, we didn’t play so well and we won.”
soooo mike does that mean with this team's notorious habit of inconsistency and playing up or down to your opponent that you guys would just slack off and get automatic W's?
just asking...
Angelic Raider
Thanks for the half clown car RT!! I really don't like the real housewives of Espn, but we should embrace debate and other opinions. I like hearing other views on the same game, some I agree some I don't but in the end we all hate the chiefs broncos and chargers the same! So let's get off work today and raise a pint on this ugly win, cuz we don't now how long it will be before the next one. CHEERS!!!!
"NYR, it was 4th and 10 with 4 minutes left when DHB was PI'd in the endzone. Can you ever get the facts straight?
3 minutes or 4 minutes. What's the difference? Are you suggesting with the additional minute it made sense to go for 3, down by 7?
”Again, you are going to point at one play all week and write "see, the coaches are crap".
No. I am NOT singling out this play for the sake of bashing the coaches. I am responding to your repeated inference that rational thought went behind sending out the FG unit.
Face it, the same rookie coaching mistakes we see on the sideline are also going into the game plan and playcalling... It took the Raiders almost 3 quarters to figure out that Palmer and the offense might perform better in a no-huddle, yet that proof occurred weeks ago against the Steelers (as well as last year).
SCAR
oh my, where to start...
Let me start with a bit of humor.
I no longer live in California, so other than an occasional game, I watch all games on television. Does anyone else watching on TV notice when the Raiders are in a close game, fighting for the win, DA is furiosly chewing on gum?
Somebody get the coach a case of wrigleys, and lets all hope the coach is chewing all season long on the sidelines!
As for the game itself "Just Win Baby," was my first impression, but I am struggling to make it my overall impression.
On the one hand, Did we really need to go into overtime to beat a 1-4 team whose starting qb AND Rb were out for the whole second half?? On the other hand, this team did NOT quit.
On the one hand, its dismaying to let the Jaguars who were 0-3 with approx 16-95 scoreline in thier last three west coast games stay this close. On the other hand, to me its encouraging that The Raiders can win ugly, Becuase maybe down the road(maybe a ways down the road) we can tag this team as a good team that finds a way to win when they dont play thier best game.
IMO, The coaching staff is still making rookie mistakes. I do see growth though with DA, Tarver, and yes, Knapp. Knapp is learning to let Palmer run a no-huddle.
Burris is the real deal, as is Wheeler, although if he were a better open field tackler, I would think Wheeler is stellar. The D-line in this game picked it up, and maybe knowing that the linebacker corp is really starting to get in gear, this will jump start the Dline for the rest of the season. Branch made a Biiiig mistake when he bit in the first half and gave up a touchdown deep, and that is all on Branch and nobody else.
As for the offense, Carson IS the guts, and on no-huddle, brains. The O-line is ok with a regular rush, but are having a hard time with the checks and blitz pickups on the line of scrimagge, right? I dont know where the run game is right now, but I did notice even in the 4th quarter, with McFadden shut down, and Palmer the bigger threat, Jacksonville stayed in a base defense, which to me means, the Defense STILL is respecting McFaddens ability to break one, so I will too.
Streater made a great grab late in the 4th quarter, thoush he did not make the touchdown catch before that...
So overall, I am not feeling minty fresh, but for some reason I am encouraged...
SCAR
Gary....the Raiders are ranked 18th overall on Offense and ranked 9th in passing. Right now, it doesn't matter if this line is pass blocking, straight or zone blocking, and they are doing both, they stink.
>>>>>
If you take away all the plays in the no-huddle, they would easily be dead last.
Its obvious to nearly every Raider fan on the planet that the only time this offense looks competent is with CP calling his own plays at the line... thus Knapp having his headset turned off.
Why you refuse to see it yourself is a mystery to me.
I'm guessing you are so obtuse in believing that this new staff has all the answers that you refuse to see the obvious.
That's not my problem. That's yours.
Call me crazy, but i am actually encouraged by last 2 games.
Yes Take. we struggle to beat a bad team, but guess what ? Raiders are a bad team also.
The thing i see is Reggie & DA are establishing a culture of not quitting.
Hopefully, once talent is upgraded, this will lead to a culture of winning.
Honestly, did anyone really believe the Raiders would battle back on the road vs Atlanta ? Or battle back yesterday ?
So to me, right now, the Raiders are a bad team with a lot of heart. I can live with that for this year.
My theory on Mcfadden.
Could be he's washed up early.
Running backs have short shelf lives anyway.
Perhaps with all the injuries Mcfad has suffered, his body is maybe older then it's years.
The "JONES is a moron" guy...the team was 1-4 in the last 5 games, Huey even said they weren't good enough, that's right, your hero said they weren't good enough. 8-8 is mediocre, big deal. The core peaked at 8-8 and we are all supposed to believe that because they ALMOST made the playoffs in a division that sucked, that the talent is there?
They went 8-8 in the weakest division in the league and you make out like they were SuperBowl contenders, and you call me a moron? They aren't even close, did you see them quit in 2 games this year and were ready to quit yesterday until Palmer pulled them up by their underwear and woke them up with the 'wedgy'? Raiders were lucky the Jag's coaches went ultraconservative and their backup QB is pathetic. Otherwise they lose yesterday in their own park, in a must win game to a last place team. Fogettaboutit
JONES
...last two games were definitely "wins" indeed. Minty Fresh. Minty. Minty Minty Fresh.
Thanks for keepin' it fresh, Take...
The Oak to the T to the B
Gary, I do not believe the coaches have all the answers. I'm not going to throw them under the bus when their time in Oakland is so short and have been dealt a team of players that would mostly not be starters on a good team. I won't throw the coaches under the bus when I have seen the core of this team quit, see them come out in their own park and play like they did in the 1st half of yesterday's game. Making the same mental errors no matter who their coach is.
I see players like Burris and Wheeler come in and make big impacts on this team. Meanwhile, I see Branch, McClain, Kelly, Seymour still making the same stupid plays they always have. I see McFadden unwilling or unable to adapt to a system, I see an O-line that makes mistake after mistake in a simple 4 man rush. I for one will not be sad to see this core gone, I have seen enough of their up and down play...can't win with them, can't do it , won't do it. These players will be gone, not the coaches, so get used to it.
JONES
You know jones, I do agree with you I have a large collection of raiders jerseys well over 75, some are of the same player twice (black and white) the funny thing is that I don't have ANY of the current players, the crop of players in the last 10 years either by draft or by trade suck, I keep buying this "we are improving, we are getting better" crap
I don't know what the answers are but I do know that teams don't dwenle at the bottom forever, look at indi....what changed in a team that went 0-16 last year, clown car or minty fresh, at the end of the day we have the same problems and obviously we have the exact same answers.
I wish Mackenzie had hired a coach with experience, we keep making rookie coach mistakes with a bunch of premaddonas as players, players are quitting, look at McFadden and the offensive line
Jones - Look. I mostly agree with you about the talent lacking on this team. I just don't understand why you're not seeing, or refuse to discuss some of the rookie coaching mistakes.
I am a fan of Dennis Allen. Some say he doesn't show enough emotion, but I believe he's all in. I also believe Tarver might be a sound DC, once he gets his sea legs. Like Allen, his inexperience is showing.
My biggest concern on the coaching staff is Greg Knapp, and that concern is more than justified. His offense is lackluster (again, the players take much of that responsibility) and unimaginative.
Knapp's biggest asset is Carson Palmer, without whom Knapp would look like a complete boob right now.
I don't have this answer, but I would love to know what happened to Darren McFadden because he's not even mediocre right now.
"I have a large collection of raiders jerseys well over 75, some are of the same player twice (black and white)"
That's strangely awesome!
nyraider said...
I don't have this answer, but I would love to know what happened to Darren McFadden because he's not even mediocre right now.
>>>> Looks to me like he has COMPLETELY lost his confidence. He can't even catch the ball right now, and his hands used to be one of the best in the league at RB.
The guy maybe needs to have his workload cut, I said this before the season... like what Gruden did with Kaufman.
There absolutely is no reason we need to have McF go up the gut 10-15 times a game.
(Knapps favorite play.)
NYR, putting wins and loses aside. I see 2 new players on defense come in , Burris and Wheeler, they are impact players, right away. I see the same old names not making much of an impact, more like they are deflating the process. So in my mind, I see new blood come in and do well, I see the old guard doing the same mistakes time and again.
I see McFadden unable or unwilling to adjust for the team, he runs into piles, doesn't cut back, doesn't fight through tackles like he did last year. Whiffs on at least half his blocking assignments. Goodson looks like more of a threat if they would ever put him in there. I see an O-line who looks like they are the geek squad at a local high school, getting kicked around the schoolyard all day. Where is their heart? In the one on one battles, whether it's straight on blocking or zone, they get their asses handed to them time and again.
You can blame this stuff on coaching, I won't. I blame it on "something is missing" from this core and it looks to me like the will to win. To do whatever they have to do to make the team win. To give up what they want, which they used to always get away with, and do whatever it takes for the team. The coaches are trying to instill what THEY KNOW to make a winning team and this team isn't responding or at least are up and down and all around.
I really question whether these players can respond, is the talent there? Then throw in a unseasoned coaching staff and this what it is. I'm willing to be patient, to let them figure it out, the players, I am disgusted, where is their pride? Where is the leadership to get them over this hump of "not good enough"? I don't see it, you can't win with that, no matter who the coach is, the players have to make it happen. They can't, they won't, they are unable, whatever the reason is, it is what it is.
JONES
Ok, so Greg Knapps WC offense.
Raiders right now do not have players ideal to run WC offense.
Their WR's bring speed on the outside. But typical WC, WR's are bigger, can break tackles, and gain yards after catch.
In WC offense, the Running back MUST be able to catch ball out of backfield.
For whatever reason, Mcfad has sucked at it this year.
The 0-line. Once again, the right side is a mess, and the left side is in flux again.
WC offense must have a TE that can catch the ball a lot.
Meyers is doing a fair job. But we need better then fair.
Palmer is doing a good job running the WC given what he has to work with.
But again, WC offense probably works better with a QB that can move a little more,(Montana, Young,).
So it's really hard to judge Knapp right now. I know it sucks, but we really have to wait until the right players are brought in.
Angelic Raider
Hey at least we're not Bengals fans!
So it's really hard to judge Knapp right now. I know it sucks, but we really have to wait until the right players are brought in.
>>>>
Which is probably what is going to happen.
My question is what happens if we give Knapp three years to prove himself and he still stinks?
Gosh start over and tell us fans to be patient again?
I'm sick of being told to be patient. Especially when we weren't that far off.
That's my problem with this whole thing. None of this HAD to be done.
The only reason it happened was because of personal ego's IMO.
Gary,
I agree that our rushing attack is nowhere near the efficiency and productivity as where it needs to be.
However, under Knapp, with injuries at WR, our passing attack has improved leaps and bounds.
This probably surprises many of you but it is true.
To get the rushing attack back on track, we need to complement McFadden by using both Goodson and Jones more not less.
Keeping McFadden fresh, giving D's a different look, and adding to the playbook in terms of playcalls and blocking schemes would bolster our rushing attack.
Palmer has done a remarkable job making due with a beat up, revolving door of inexperienced WRs.
The one area of the passing attack that needs to be supplemented is the use of Ausberry and the TEs in general.
As far as Knapp goes, I believe he deserves at least a 2nd year. Make no mistake, the offensive system that Knapp believes in was endorsed by Allen (which is why he was hired in the 1st place) in spite of not having the key components in place with the understanding that it is a work in progress.
Nothing had to be done? That is absurd. Can't really add anything else, just a plainly ridiculous comment by my pal, Anonymous Gary.
JONES
http://raidersnewsflash.wordpress.com/
The Raiders were going 3 and out over and over again for almost 3 quarters then suddenly in the 4th Palmer started to move the ball mostly by no huddle. RNF had various witnesses on the ground that are saying Knapp was visible upset that Palmer was NOT calling the plays that was in his head set in fact Knapp at one point began to get in Dennis Allen’s ear. So much that Dennis Allen had to use on those costly Time Outs. It was a strange time out when the Raiders were in the red zone Palmer still had 3 seconds on the clock and he was going to get the play off but Dennis Allen called a Time Out. Palmer went to the sideline confused, Dennis Allen thought he was having communication problem in Palmer’s helmet head set but it was not the case. Carson Palmer basically was ignoring Gregg Knapp’s calls and running the offense himself which ended up being a good thing. I am being told that the Raiders scored on every possession that Palmer did this and when Knapp made Palmer listen to his plays in the Red Zone Raiders had to settle for a field goal. Not to mention the 3 quarters when Raiders were not moving the ball at all. Gregg Knapp was seen on the sideline very upset..
I kind of keep wondering why Palmer is always running McF up the gut into 8 in the box... I think its because little-baby-boy Knapp gets upset if Palmer doesn't run his plays.
Nothing else makes sense.
Why else wouldn't a veteran QB audible out of such a moronic play?
Either Palmer is a complete moron, or Knapp is tying his hands.
I think its the latter.
Acknowledgement: I’m sure some of you feel like we are beating this Knapp issue to a complete pulp. I just feel like it’s literally the biggest issue we face right now. If it really is a system and more importantly a play calling issue, we could lose a few years trying to “rebuild” around it because we don’t think we have the right players. If we’re wrong, a decision like that could ruin the prime years of a guy named DMAC who looked the best back in the NFL last year before he went down. It could certainly be a disappointing end to a former 2 time pro bowl QB’s career in CP3. We need to get the right answer to the question. This is a major tipping point for a franchise. I don’t think the importance of this examination can be overstated.
With that in mind, here is some unbiased perspective to ponder...
First I need to admit 2 things.
#1
I really liked HuJack as a play caller. I remember how anemic our offense was in 2009 prior to his arrival. We scored less than 200 points and finished 31st in the league. It was arguably harder to watch than the notorious Tom Walsh flop in 2006. In Hugh's first campaign in 2010, we catapulted all the way to 6th in the NFL in scoring while accumulating 410 pts. Literally double the production in the only offensive category that really counts. Hard to argue with those results.
#2
I was really concerned about the Greg Knapp hire at the time (and still very concerned today). I just don’t feel like we have the same punch on offense. Under HuJack we put defenses on their heels, this year we sort of nibble on what they give us. It feels exceedingly hard to move the chains, most of Palmers throws feel hotly contested, the pocket feels small, and McFadden is obviously a different back than we saw in the previous two seasons.
So with those admissions out of the way, here is the unbiased element of the story:
I was fully prepared to write a take which criticized Knapp for sending the offense in a backward tail spin. Palmer seems mostly out of rhythm and receivers feel tightly covered. Jones keeps saying DMAC can’t see the holes and isn’t giving the effort. I personally don’t see any running lanes or creases for him to operate. However, that’s mostly subjective observation and not the point of my take.
Anyway, to support my argument against Knapp, I wanted to prove through factual data that it didn’t take all this time to learn a new system. I wanted to prove that immediate impact was possible with the right system in place. Hugh came in and took us from 200pts to 410pts in one season. I remember hanging 50+ and 40+ on Denver in two games. I remember 4 or 5 more games where we scored 30 or more. And I didn’t remember anyone having to ask for more time to let the system develop.
Interestingly enough, here’s what I found was the reality:
Through 6 games in 2010, the offense had scored only 120 pts (20pts/g), and only scored +30 in one of those games. Game #6 was the SF game where we were absolutely embarrassing… losing 17-9. Over the next 10 weeks however, the offense exploded for 290 points (29 pts/g) and scored +30 in half of those games. Our lowest point total in the final 5 games was 26. Pretty amazing turn around after a rocky beginning.
Ironically, through 6 games this season we have scored 113 points (18.8 pts/g). Perhaps there really is something here if we continue to evolve and improve. Everything in my gut tells me that’s too optimistic… and what I see with my eyes certainly seems to support that claim. The 30pt outburst against the Steelers feels like a mirage. However, personal biases and gut feelings aside, historical data says it possible for a new system to pick up steam after 6 generally pathetic performances and become a top tier offense. Does anyone think its possible?
Look forward to your feedback.
Perhaps the players are confused by Kanpp's offense, and have lost confidence in it. The only time it really shines is when Palmer takes control... which, according to the article above, may not be by design.
The O-line has regressed this year. I thought we were set with Veldheer at LT and Wiz at C. By many accounts here, these guys need to be replaced. That doesn't make sense. Veldheer was, IMO, becoming a franchise player under different system.
McKenzie's FA, Brisel, has been no better. Willie Smith is a disaster, but he's clearly a stopgap until Barnes comes back (ugh!).
Carlisle is a zone blocking guard who was moved from his natural position, so maybe he gets better as the season progresses.
I think the players want to do better, and I think they expect to do better, but may be losing faith in the system, and maybe their OC. I know a lot of fans are....
The "Jersey" days are over, have been for a long time. Players are indepedent contractors, folks. Buy yourself a black V-Neck and a grey cap and give the rest to the needy. Time to clear yer closets like I did, there are a LOT of knuckleheads willing to pay good money for dusty, old jerseys. Thank you, ebay.
Play ball!
...I think I got $30 bucks for Charlie Garner, and Woodson went quick too! (more than I paid for them). That money bought some sweet stuff for my kids. Gannon and Brown, well, now, those are keepers.
;)
Gee Gary, real unbiased reporting you are plagiarizing there. I went to that site, the guy who runs it is an obvious 'new' regime hater. He flat out blames it all on Allen and McKenzie, almost word for word what you write. He wrote the Raiders would get blown out 50-3 vs Atl. He said the Raiders would lose to Pitt by at least 30 pts. He then predicted a blow out by Denver, which actually happened. Hardly a site where you get a balanced report. So some blogger who hates the 'new' regime is posting what could easily be a lie, gives no names to "witnesses" that he had "on the ground". No one comments on his 'articles' but he has witnesses lurking the Raider sidelines? You sure know how to get to the truth, huh Gary?
NYR, why are these O-linemen losing straight on/ one on one battles all game? Just straight up, one on one, no zone, just holding a block? Nice strawmen and gossip. Is this what this site is now? Just take any old blogger and make it FACT? Start spreading the 'news'.
JONES
I have to say, if we were football players, I wouldn't want Gary or NYR on my team. They would be spreading rumors and strawmen in the corner of the dressing room, trying to create problems because they want the old coach back. With teammates like them, who would need adversaries?
JONES
Jones -
"Nice strawmen and gossip"
Isn't it funny how anything you don't agree with is a strawman argument.
It's probably an understatement to say the Raiders offense hasn't played very well this year, and they fell completely flat in the first half on Sunday. But far be it for any of that responsibility to rest on the coaches. Right? Strawman!
"With teammates like them, who would need adversaries?"
Seriously? You've done nothing but bash the players.
Are you suggesting, as a fan, I shouldn't question coaching decisions, playcalling, etc? Should I become a blind loyalist, like you've apparently become?
It is you who is creating nonfacts and scenarios, this is why I wouldn't want you on my team. To push your agenda, you use nonfacts and made up scenarios.
I look at the history of these players, the history tells us they are prone to mental errors over and over. They go through periods of nonexecution. They are prone to playing well for a game or 2 and then drop back down to mediocre. They are prone to quitting if it doesn't look like it's going to be a good day.
What you have on the coaches is they are a bit raw at ingame management, schemes are fine IMO, the Defense is improving. I think the coaches came into Oakland wanting to place their way of doing things from top to bottom. I think they are finding out that this bunch needs to be treated like the special kid in the classroom, the one with A.D.D. The coaches are adjusting somewhat, but they want things done their way as well, like they wanted from day 1. That's the FACTS.
I'm not blind NYR, I have shown that I can see over the years here at this site. I'm not going to piss all over the coaching and give these players a pass when the history tells the story. I used Wheeler and Burris as examples, they come from totally different schemes and have picked up what the coaches want and are flourishing. Why can't the core players? It's because they are what they are and have been brought up in a "we get what we want" scenario with the past regime. Unable or unwilling, until they decide they want IT, expect more of the same no matter who is coaching them.
If we can get a team full of Wheelers, Palmers and Burris', then we can judge the coaches. Blaming the coaches for coming into a team with shit talent and desire, I'm not going to do it. Give them something to work with and then we will see.
JONES
"It is you who is creating nonfacts and scenarios, this is why I wouldn't want you on my team. To push your agenda, you use nonfacts and made up scenarios."
Jones, don't give me so much credit (even if it’s bad). I'm just watching the games and making personal observations, like any other fan.
"I look at the history of these players, the history tells us they are prone to mental errors over and over."
Is that to say you base your opinions on prejudges?
Wheeler and Buris are good examples, but the rest of the roster isn’t made up of bad culture players. There are several players from other organizations that are struggling with the same systems the coaches are trying to install. What about Veldheer and Wiz? Do these guys fall under your bad culture theory? Carson Palmer was a Hue guy. Is he a Raiders-culture reject? Syemour? Is he culturally challenged too? Tommy Kelly was an UFA out of college. You think he's out there dogging it?
This is the NFL. These players know, especially under McKenzie/Allen, they could be out of a job at any time.
I base my opinions on facts, unlike yourself. And what about Veldheer and Wiz? Bad culture theory is just a part of it, it's not the whole 'banana', but it doesn't surprise me that you take things out of context, ONCE AGAIN, to try and confuse the point. NYR, your style of discussion is insincere and is half hearted at best, no use trying to discuss with someone who won't fly straight, been through that journey many times with the "crew" members...are you trying to get a membership?
JONES
Also, if the players know they can be out of a job at anytime....how do you explain what these players did on Sunday in the 1st half? I've seen other teams with nothing on the line, come out with more intensity and desire compared to what the Raiders did. I saw them play like their jobs were on the line in Atl. But as per their history, they feel comfortable after that game and come out like they are playing a pickup up game at the park. You see where the 'culture' thing comes in? Guess it's hard to break old habits? Kind of like you and your out of context crusade?
JONES
"NYR, your style of discussion is insincere and is half hearted at best, no use trying to discuss with someone who won't fly straight...."
That's fine, Jones. I don't care for you constant attacks. I'm not trying to confuse you. I think I've made valid points. You hinge your opinions partly on your notion of culture. That's hardly steeped in the facts, at least as it pertains to today’s roster. That's intangible at best.
"how do you explain what these players did on Sunday in the 1st half?"
It's possible they are struggling with the system. To me, that could mean any combination of the players, the system and the coaching. That's what I've been suggesting since Day 1 of the season, but labeled by you as a strawman.
What proof do you have that Greg Knapp's offense will work, even after the roster is turned over? If it doesn't work, we are back to square one.
So, excuse me. I might be a little overly critical because I'm concerned it won't work. The only semblance of it working has really come with Palmer making the decisions. I will applaud the coaches if he's given more freedom to continue to do that. But when it takes almost 3 quarters of dreadful football and almost costs us a game, I get a little nervous.
Again, you blame the coaches, "since day 1", you have blamed them all (players/coaches) for losing since day 1? You see, that makes no sense, but you throw it out there and try to pretend it is real. How could you be blaming everyone when they hadn't even played yet? Day 1 is when? The day they started losing? The day Allen was hired? The day the played an exhibition game? When exactly is "day 1"? You use blanket statements to cover both sides of the fence and make no point at the same time.
You are saying Palmer ignores Knapp too, like it says in that 'article of crap' Gary served up? You know that is a lie, don't you? Exactly my point, you blame the coaches for the bad calls and Palmer for the good ones. You blame 3 Qrtrs of "dreadful football" on the coaches and then you make out like it was the players who bailed out the coaches. It's just false, you are spreading false ideals of what is happening because "that's what everyone else thinks".
The players came out like they always do and that is why we saw the crap we did on Sunday. How can you blame the coaches in such an obvious flop by the players? Even you wrote that, NYR, you saw it, but now you are spinning it and putting 3 qrtrs on the coaches. So excuse me for seeing through your agenda and calling you on your scenarios. It reaks of guessing and following the crowd, I thought you were better than that?
Constant attacks? Wow, you should be a politician, just keep throwing out generalizations and painting pictures, it's what you do.
JONES
Jones - Prosac anyone?
Now who's taking statements out of context and being disingenuous and insincere to push his agenda?
That post isn't even worth responding to. This back and forth with you is a joke.
"You are saying Palmer ignores Knapp too..."
Where did I say that?
What I said was it took 3 qtrs of bad play (whoever you want to blame for that) before Palmer was given the freedom to make decisions.
FWIW, Jones... Cork just called the blog post BS too.
You are probably right.
Now carry on with your childish blithering, blustering, billowing, and bullshit.
This website is benefiting from it, I'm sure. lol
Personally, I'm seeing progress in 2 major areas; defense and offensive passing attack.
The ups and downs of a season, a game, a half, a quarter, a series is part and parcel --- especially for a team transitioning into new management, coaching staff, systems, etc. The phrase "work in progress" is self-explanatory.
It is worth noting that in our 2 victories, the Raiders came from behind by 2 scores in the 2nd half. In the game vs. ATL, the team fought back to tie the game at the very end of the 4th Q. To me, this is a sign of a team that isn't quitting. We are clearly in the learning from mistakes mode and have a long way to go in terms of playing top notch football on a consistent basis.
Getting the running game going and allowing CP3 more latitude would make a big difference.
Calico Jack said...
Personally, I'm seeing progress in 2 major areas; defense and offensive passing attack.
The ups and downs of a season, a game, a half, a quarter, a series is part and parcel --- especially for a team transitioning into new management, coaching staff, systems, etc. The phrase "work in progress" is self-explanatory.
It is worth noting that in our 2 victories, the Raiders came from behind by 2 scores in the 2nd half.
>>>>>
Both only after the no-huddle was implemented.
Cork sez they don't do it because then they can't make substitutions themselves... but why doesn't Manning or Brady have problems then? And CP doesn't seem to have a fav receiver anyway, and the only person they hand the ball off to is McF... Goodson doesn't even get a chance.
Then someone told me it limits the play selection... why?
I'd like to have Allen or Knapp explain this to us... have they ever explained to us the resistance to the no-huddle?
The fans have been saying for a year now that McClain should be benched, and when it FINALLY happens, the defense improves.
Why does it seem the fans see the obvious, but the Raider coaching staff have blinders on? We can't blame Al for this anymore!
The no-huddle takes the edge off the D-line, and makes our O-line able to handle their assignments. I'm pretty sure that's why the no-huddle works for us. I'm pretty sure you can get a lot of that from running an uptempo offense even if you don't go to the no-huddle.
The defense is pretty clearly better, but it still has some lapses in the running game that have lead to some nasty losses.
PS
Knapp and/or Allen said that there are a limited number of plays installed for no huddle offense. That makes sense given the lack of substitutions, etc. that are inherent. They are still working to expand the number of no-huddle plays at CP3's disposal.
Also, my understanding of the reasoning behind not using no-huddle at road games is due to the noise factor, particularly in shotgun formation when the snap count is not audible.
There. Did I spin that one too much, Jones?
The instant gratification crowd is remarkable. Folks seem to want to believe that if you bring in new guys at the top, winning should happen over night.
Let me remind you that Bill Walsh didn't turn around the SF 49ers until his third year. Jon Gruden didn't turn around the Raiders until his third year. Jimmy Johnson didn't turn around the Cowboys until his third year.
Sure, you can always find anecdotal evidence that some team has turned around in one season, but it either doesn't carry over for the subsequent season or the team has been already in transition for two or more years.
Let me remind you that Bill Walsh didn't turn around the SF 49ers until his third year. Jon Gruden didn't turn around the Raiders until his third year. Jimmy Johnson didn't turn around the Cowboys until his third year.
>>>>>
Gruden inherited a 4-12 team. Johnson inherited a 3-13 team.
Walsh inherited a 2-14 team.
If this franchise had been spiraling out of control like the three examples above, I doubt you would see anything BESIDES patience.
Instead we are coming off two 8-8 seasons with a top 15 offense already in place... and a franchise QB _AND_ RB in place.
Why would you expect patience NOW??
Apples to apples please.
"The instant gratification crowd is remarkable"
Do you mean as opposed to waiting out the last ten years while the Raiders dwelled at the bottom in a parity-driven league? That instant gratification crowd?
I was being patient because I was slowly seeing things improving. Now I am supposed to be patient again while things regress?
And for WHAT REASON are they regressing? I see what they are doing on the defense... but what exactly are they trying to accomplish on the offense right now?
Why should I be patient? Because the ZBS is going to bring us numerous SB wins three years from now?
With all new players? Or what??... if so... SAY IT!
I can handle it.
All I hear is the same thing I've heard for the past 10 years... "Just be patient, we are THIS close... we are looking at things." Etc etc etc.
To me it looks more like the offense is trying harder to prove their idea's will work than winning games.
Maybe everything will suddenly come together in the next couple of games. Personally I don't see it... I watched the coaches film last night and saw Wiz block a zone while letting a player run straight by him to the QB.
I saw McF hesitate at the line letting the DE being blocked by Veldeer enough time to close the hole he should have burst through.
And people have been wondering all along if the WCO is a great fix for CP... I am not sure.
Can this be fixed yet?
I hope so.
I am not holding my breath though...
McFadden made some interesting comments. He said he watches game film and tries to see if he missed a hole or a cut back or something that will help him improve his play. That process should really go without saying, but it almost sounds like it's mostly a blocking issue.
I still believe in McFadden. One of the few times this year he found the second level, he took it to the house against the Steelers.
I hope Knapp finds the answers.
On defense, I think Tarver has mostly done a good job with limited resources. This team almost never played zone, and now they're actually doing it fairly well the last couple games, with the one glarring mental breakdown by Branch against Jags.
I'm ok with steady improvement. To use the positive example Allen regularly makes of Buris, you hope players (and coaches) minimize their repeat mistakes. That will lead to steady progress over time.
Not to be labled an instant gratification fan, but I expect the Raiders to bring it against the Chiefs... no excuses please.
My take on the AFC West is that every team has flaws and based on the schedules and current records, the team that steps up, displays consistency will ultimately prevail.
As bad as the Raiders have played to include blowout losses vs. Mia and Den, remarkably, we are only one mere game behind Den/SD.
The big question for me going forward with 10 games to go is whether we see steady improvements and progress in the systems used, players and coaches learning from the past 6 games, whether the team can play good football w/more consistency, and most importantly, the team has the will to win at all costs.
There was one play in particular that gives me pause about this scheme.. Wiz hikes the ball... turns to his right and blocks NOBODY (probably his zone) and lets the DT go straight into Palmer.
This scheme has a LONG way to go when any player on the line as talented as Wiz simply lets a sack go to block NOBODY.
I don't see a quick fix here folks.
The o-line is confused and McF is pressing and losing confidence.
New take is up...new Raiders video software/app.
The5er,
Those are some interesting facts you threw out. I'm not as optimistic with us turning it around under ZBS, and here's why.
McFadden was running good, while the passing struggled to get rhythm. The WRs were a few plays short of being effective. Right now, under ZBS, McFadden is not running well. The main reason is because ZBS does not create holes in the running game. It requires a big back to bang through between the linemen. McFadden is not a big bruising back, and therefore, has no confidence in ZBS because they are trying to make him something he is not.
Last year, our O-Line wasn't this bad. They were able to take their assignments, and this year they are having problems adjusting to ZBS and picking up their assignments. They seem to be confused as to what to do with the border line of their zones they are in charge of. Not an easy fix.
The biggest thing a lineman needs to be successful is to know his assignments; these guys look confused because they are confused.
I would be more optimistic if there were consistency in how the O-line blocked with minimal mistakes. I'd be more optimistic if McFadden looked like he did last year. He struggled under Knapp's first go round, and under Cable because both were ZBS guys; McFadden is not a ZBS runner. He is a speed guy who needs power blocking, not a run-up-the-gut runner (which in my opinion is why Bush was better under these guys). It's going to be a long season....again.
Just Win, Baby!
Hey Nate, Thanks for the feedback... I was beginning to think my post was invisible :) I guess it just wasn't as thought provoking as I thought. I was just looking for a reason to be more optimistic about the process...
Overall, I'm with you. I don't feel like it’s a lack of talent or effort. I don't see lots of open space or even creases for DMAC to hit. I feel like last year he ripped off big chunks on a regular basis. I looked for the stat to confirm (which I couldn't find) but I believe he lead the league in carries of +10 and +20 yds when he went down last year.
Conversely, I think he has only a handful of +10's this year. Like maybe 5. That screams of system and play calling to me... I hope I'm wrong.
I have a similar perspective on the passing game. It feels like almost every throw is highly contested... either through tight coverage or a pocket that is collapsing quickly. I watch the other top offenses and it sure appears that guys are running free in space a lot more often than ours are. Palmer has made some great throws… but boy it seems like they are into really small spaces all the time.
I think your point about confusion along the O-Line is right on. I see guys looking for someone to block or double teaming a guy when other defenders are passing by and getting on the QB or RB and disrupting the play. These missed assignments don't seem like a lack of talent or effort like others are suggesting.
To that point, perhaps the time to develop and get comfortable than I want to accept (which it what was ultimately pointing out in my last take).
I hope DA is savvy enough to look back at some tape of DMAC running in the first half of the season last year and seeing if a few of those play designs can be re-implemented w/o necessarily having to get away from Knapps system all together. Classic case of over fixing something that wasn't broken.
The willingness to take a look in the rear view mirror would show me a lot about the type of coach he is going to be. No need to be stubborn here... lets get the damn thing right boys.
Raider Nate 75,
I agree with some of your points especially about blown OL assignments and confusion on some plays.
However, I disagree with your notion of the ZBS; "It requires a big back to bang through between the linemen".
Far from it. The ZBS is essentially a "1 cut and go" running scheme. The protype is a guy like Adrian Foster.
The other myth that I hear from time to time is, "He (McFadden) struggled under Knapp's first go round"
Not exactly. Look it up. Although McFadden had a limited # of snaps due to injury, he was highly effective (113 Att, 499 yards, 4.4 YPC).
Bush, although he is a very big back at 250 lbs., it is his nimbleness and decisiveness that allows he to find a crease and go North/South.
My sense is that the Raiders struggles in the run game is a combination of factors;
(1) playing from behind with a 2+ score deficit (has happened in 4 games)
(2) the OLine making mental errors
(3) McFadden struggling (and hesitant) to trust his eyes and be more decisive when reading the zone and making the 1 cut and getting up field.
Is it fixable seems to be the big question. Everywhere Knapp has been (OAK, ATL, SEA, Hou) the running game has had a measure of success.
Don't forget that even Huggy Bear had 1000+ yards as a Raider in Knapp's ZBS.
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