Curing the JaMarcus Hangover
I'm not saying, but just asking: Is it time to draft a quarterback (or two) in the early rounds of the draft?
Look at this list of this year's playoff teams:
Niners
Ravens
Packers
Redskins
Falcons
Colts
Seahawks
Patriots
Bengals
Vikings
Broncos
Texans
Now look at this list of perennial contenders who were knocking on the door but missed this year:
Steelers
Saints
Giants
Out of those 15 teams, only three don't have homegrown quarterbacks as starters. Peyton Manning is a freak, so I almost don't count him. So that leaves Matt Schaub and Drew Brees as the only regular "journeymen" free agents to helm the teams on this list.
Now, I'm not saying that Christian Ponder is better than Carson Palmer. And there are several homegrown quarterbacks who are stalling right now, such as Jake Locker. It's not a foolproof theory.
But if we're going to build a long-term winner, I think we need too groom a young quarterback and get on board with what's working in today's NFL.
Look at some of the teams who have gone the journeyman route lately: the Chiefs with Cassel and Quinn, the Cardinals with Kolb, the Eagles with Vick, and the Raiders with Palmer. All of those teams fell into steep decline in 2012. The percentages overwhelmingly indicate that the surest route to building a long-term winner is to do it by grooming your own franchise quarterback.
Pryor? If he was the guy, don't you think he would have passed Matt Leinart on the depth chart before the very last game of his second year in the NFL? The elite quarterbacks of tomorrow aren't taking much time to show their stuff these days, as evidenced by all of the rookies and second-year quarterbacks in the playoffs this year.
I think we're still suffering from a JaMarcus Russell hangover. I truly do. The dominos are still falling. Russell flames out, we desperately grasp onto Jason Campbell to keep us competitive, but Campbell is just good but not great (did you expect anything more?). Then, because we've neglected depth at the position in large part due to the JaMarcus Russell flameout, we panic and allow Hue Jackson to pay a king's ransom to hire Carson Palmer off his couch, a move that just doesn't square with what seems to be working these days in the NFL. Next thing you know, we're hallucinating Terrelle Pryor as a potential elite quarterback. We are still hungover.
The word in 2011 was that we might make a play to move up and get Colin Kaepernick. But we were hungover.
Terrelle Pryor represented the 78th slot in the 2012 draft (the pick we gave up to get him in the supplemental). You know where Russell Wilson was picked in 2012? 75th. The Redskins' seemingly capable backup QB Kirk Cousins was picked in the fourth round in 2012. There are diamonds in the rough, and we need to get serious about finding one.
We need to start grooming the future at quarterback. We tried and failed with Russell. The idea was right even if the execution wasn't. The idea is still right. The evidence is obvious in the standings.
Look at this list of this year's playoff teams:
Niners
Ravens
Packers
Redskins
Falcons
Colts
Seahawks
Patriots
Bengals
Vikings
Broncos
Texans
Now look at this list of perennial contenders who were knocking on the door but missed this year:
Steelers
Saints
Giants
Out of those 15 teams, only three don't have homegrown quarterbacks as starters. Peyton Manning is a freak, so I almost don't count him. So that leaves Matt Schaub and Drew Brees as the only regular "journeymen" free agents to helm the teams on this list.
Now, I'm not saying that Christian Ponder is better than Carson Palmer. And there are several homegrown quarterbacks who are stalling right now, such as Jake Locker. It's not a foolproof theory.
But if we're going to build a long-term winner, I think we need too groom a young quarterback and get on board with what's working in today's NFL.
Look at some of the teams who have gone the journeyman route lately: the Chiefs with Cassel and Quinn, the Cardinals with Kolb, the Eagles with Vick, and the Raiders with Palmer. All of those teams fell into steep decline in 2012. The percentages overwhelmingly indicate that the surest route to building a long-term winner is to do it by grooming your own franchise quarterback.
Pryor? If he was the guy, don't you think he would have passed Matt Leinart on the depth chart before the very last game of his second year in the NFL? The elite quarterbacks of tomorrow aren't taking much time to show their stuff these days, as evidenced by all of the rookies and second-year quarterbacks in the playoffs this year.
I think we're still suffering from a JaMarcus Russell hangover. I truly do. The dominos are still falling. Russell flames out, we desperately grasp onto Jason Campbell to keep us competitive, but Campbell is just good but not great (did you expect anything more?). Then, because we've neglected depth at the position in large part due to the JaMarcus Russell flameout, we panic and allow Hue Jackson to pay a king's ransom to hire Carson Palmer off his couch, a move that just doesn't square with what seems to be working these days in the NFL. Next thing you know, we're hallucinating Terrelle Pryor as a potential elite quarterback. We are still hungover.
The word in 2011 was that we might make a play to move up and get Colin Kaepernick. But we were hungover.
Terrelle Pryor represented the 78th slot in the 2012 draft (the pick we gave up to get him in the supplemental). You know where Russell Wilson was picked in 2012? 75th. The Redskins' seemingly capable backup QB Kirk Cousins was picked in the fourth round in 2012. There are diamonds in the rough, and we need to get serious about finding one.
We need to start grooming the future at quarterback. We tried and failed with Russell. The idea was right even if the execution wasn't. The idea is still right. The evidence is obvious in the standings.
posted by Raider Take at 9:37 AM
97 Comments:
Drafting a QB in 2013 to compete and be developed long term makes sense. The only real certainty going into the 2014 season is that we will have Pryor on the roster. CP3 could be playing his last season with us this upcoming year. To put all of our eggs in the Pryor basket would be extremely risky to say the least.
The concern that I have is that most of the QBs who are successful and/or are to be developed fall in the 1st 3 rounds of the draft.
With our current draft situation and needs of the team, the best chance we have of taking a QB relatively early in the draft would seem to be by trading down and attempting to stock-pile multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
We are somewhat boxed in. Would we use our 1st round #3 pick on a QB? No. Do we currently have a 2nd round pick? No. If we keep and use our 1st round pick, would we use our very next pick in the 3rd round on a QB "flyer" with so many other pressing needs? Doubtful.
...in my presumably sophomoric cheap seats and with all due respect, OL, DL, DB, full stop. QB: yep, but not yet.
Wait for the next Wilson.
First icing, then cake.
...not.
I agree the Raiders should draft a QB, and possibly this year. Raiders have enough holes that I think their draft strategy has to be "draft the best available player". IMO, QB is a position of need. Leinart is useless and Pryor is unproven.
However, Pryor deserves a roster spot and chance to compete at QB. I would speculate that Knapp is the one that kept Pryor back, being that Allen is a D-minded HC and left the offense to Knapp. I will speculate further and suggest the decision to start Pryor over Leinart came from upstairs.
After all the Raiders struggles in the red zone this year, and then to watch Pryor go 3-3 in the red zone makes me want to see more of him.
For my money, Pryor's tremendous effort in one game trumped the steady play by Palmer all season. Palmer had a career year and virtually nothing to show for it. That tells me he is not a difference-maker (like Rich Gannon!).
Question remains, is Pryor another Tebow (with heart and determination), or is he truly capable of leading an NFL team into the post season.
Here's my prediction for QB depth chart next season:
Palmer - Pryor - Drafted QB
No QB in the draft this year. The full story on Pryor is that he had no training camp to speak of in his first year. Then he had to sit out a suspension. You have to consider 2012 his rookie year. In 2012 we changed our offense, and offense that Leinart was already familiar with, so that moved Leinart into the number two spot. That structure gave Pryor precious few reps this year.
I'm not saying that Pryor is the answer, but the fact is we don't know, and he looked very promising in his week 17 start.
We did not have a Palmer problem this season, we had a Chris Knapp problem. Palmer should last a good three years which is sufficient time for Pryor to develope. On top of that, we have far too much rebuilding to do right now to worry about a position that isn't critical for us.
I think the reason that we're suddenly seeing the early rise of rookie QBs is because the nature of the position is changing. It is becoming more akin to the college version of QB - which Pryor is very much suited to.
Not this year. Let's look at Pryor for a full season at the number 2 position, then make a detrimination.
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Well here’s the latest out of 1220 Harbor Bay Parkway: Mike "The Greatest Show on Turf" Martz is being interviewed by the Raiders.
http://www.csnbayarea.com/blog/paul-gutierrez/report-raiders-interview-martz-oc-position
I personally don't want Martz becoming our next signal caller, though he does run a pretty innovative offense. Just not feeling it. Had the same feelings about Greg "Nap Time"
In other news, around the league, the Raiders are said to have some interest in ex-Eagles OC/DC coach Juan Castillo filling the Offensive Line coach.
Let the takes begin…………
Blanda - not sure how you really "look" at a guy in the #2 QB spot?
I think the Raiders should do in 2013 what they said they would do in 2012, and that's get Pryor involved in the offense.
NY, good question. Here's a brief analysis of how I see the QB situation league wide.
In the early days of the NFL, QBs came largely from schools and semi-pro adept at playing the Tail Back position in the Single Wing, which modernly we refer to as the Wildcat formation. It involved more running than throwing.
However, in the pro ranks, teams adapted to this formation by brutalizing the QB to get him out of the game. The NFL adjusted by creating different style of formations that could create a pocket to protect QBs.
As a result, defenses started torpedeoing linemen or LBs through the pocket protection to take out QB's knees. The league reacted by making new rules to protect knees. The defenses reacted by using helmets to take out QBs. Now the league is responding with new rules to control that situation.
This, currently, makes the QB one of the most protected players on the field. Because of that, the QB is useful again for something besides throwing or handing off. He can run again.
This has given rise to a throwback type QB that we're seeing on the rise in the NFL, capable of running the Single Wing (Wildcat) again. Pryor is very much of that design.
I'd like to see the Raiders use him like that, but not just as a runner. He needs to learn to throw better from that formation.
So, as long as the Raiders have Pryor pass, as well as run, I'm all in for having a package that can best utalize his talents.
Jabustuss hangover, MClain hangover, fabian washington hang over, time to quite drinking...
I hope I'm wrong but the money CP3 is getting it would be hard to see Pryor start.
How would you justify CP3 as the #2 at 14 mil a year or whatever - unless you really looked at who gives you the best chance to win and or build for the future. If Palmer starts this year then Pryor would get looked at his 4th year. Just in time to go free agent.
I like Palmer and respect his professionalism. I just think after watching this kid and listening to him talk, seeing the options a skilled runner/passer at the position can bring, he would be my starter. Will there be an open competition in camp or are they bound to conformity. What's the worst that could happen, go 4-12?
As interesting is the Ray Anderson talk. Is Mark hedging his bet on McKenzie?
The fact that Martz is even mentioned is quite disturbing to me.
Interesting take, Blanda. The most impressive throw Pryor made was the one coaches tell you not to make (running to the sideline and throwing back to the middle), but he made it look easy. Plus, the man can't be sacked. He's a human weeble... and a natural leader.
RT could be right, maybe I'm just hallucinating Pryor can be good.
Pryor has a legitmate shot to become our starting QB in 2014.
That statement in itself is surprising (to me), scary and exciting.
This potential big leap in his career progression would require a significant step up in his craft (mechanics, game management, leadership, knowledge) over the next 18 months (from now until Sept. 2014).
...Thoroughly enjoying the playoffs this year, since I can't count on the A Team.
http://www.coachingsearch.com/coaching-search-ticker.html
Trestman interviewing for OC according to this site.
All for it but three little problems with that- no Brown Rice or Gannon...
I like Pryor, but we have to see more.
But if Pryor could not learn the Knapp,(Nap) offense after a year, how long for him to learn yet another new offense ?
We don't have all the time in the world waiting for these guys to produce.
I think Matt Flynn is another option. He does have a Packer, Reggie connection. Flynn is still young, and has talent.
Flynn's downside is that he would cost more draft picks the Raiders really need to keep.
If the Raiders can move Palmer for some picks, maybe it can all even out somehow.
********************************************************************
Message to Reggie.
If you're planning to build a version of the Packers in Oakland. I'll take the offense.
But you can sure as hell keep that defense.
I agree Mr. Duva, not feeling it with Martz.
I'd take Trestman or Saunders.
I don't think there is any question that the Raiders have traditionally done a horrible job at developing QBs from within. Just look at a career leader in yards... Stabler. He lead the Raiders in passing for 7 years (before being traded by Al, which he later said was his biggest mistake.) The next longest Raider QB was Gannon with 5 years leading the team. I have no problem if McK takes a flier on a QB in the draft this year, although I wonder if its the year to do it? We are missing a second round pick and have too many desperate other needs, plus its supposed to be a down year for QBs. I'd prefer we gamble on Pryor being our backup, and then draft another prospect in 2014. Stinking for a decade kinda lends one to forgo long term projects.
I've been rooting for Trestman for weeks! If we use our number three pick to bolster the line and pick up a blue-chip number one WR, the team is VERY similar to the one Trestman led to number two in offense. A veteran QB, a good line, a RB with quicks out of the backfield, and a deep WR corp. Is Jennings/Streater/DHB/Moore/Ford/Criner better than Brown/Rice/Porter?
Doubtfully.. but deeper. Remember, Garner, Rice, and Brown had nearly all the receptions that year. Garner had 91 receptions that year with Rice, 92, and Brown 82.
I would much rather we used McFadden like Trestman did Garner, than Knapp sending him up the gut the entire game.
McF had the best hands on the team until Knapp had him so frustrated he was rendered worthless.
After watching Kaepernick and Wilson in the playoffs this weekend I could not help but wonder if the Raiders did not have a similar QB but the coaches just did not have the guts to play him. Or am I hallucinating?
Greg Olson from the Jags also interviewed for OC.
Check out
Newsnow.co.uk/Oaklandraiders
More Raiders stuff than I have seen anywhere else.
Crazy cause its a uk site.
Gary,
Is that Jennings from Green Bay? He's lost a step and has been injury prone the past 2 years. No thanks, I'd rather draft someone like Marquis Lee.
I'd love to have Trestman as well, and I agree about utilizing McFadden like Garner; we just need to find a Wheatley. I thought we had that in Michael Bush, but we didn't; which is why I was hoping we could've signed Benson this past offseason.
I think we need WR, LB, OL, and DL help. The draft is going to be DL and OL heavy; but a few good WRs and LBs as well. Outside of that, it is going to be slim pickings!.
Bruce Dehaven from the Bills interviewing for Special teams
Raider00 - According to Pryor, he did learn the offense. He stated to the press he knew all formations and plays.
Unfortunately, the entire offense is starting over, again!
Pryor was never given an oportunity to show his stuff, big mistake by the head coach, I wouldn't blame napp for that, the head coach should have had Pryor in there since week 8 and let him develop, look at SF, they changed qb's in the middle of the season and this is a winning team, we are a loossing team that can't score a td and don't even have the guts to make a change to at leat rattle the offense...again to me this is on the head coach.
Uhh, Kap is playing behind one of the best lines in football and can actually complete a pass on a dime. He deserved the starting job after the mediocre Smith got hurt and he proved himself.
Raider fans just want Pryor to be handed the job for no reason. HE CANNOT THROW THE BALL. It was obvious.
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...
Gary,
Is that Jennings from Green Bay? He's lost a step and has been injury prone the past 2 years. No thanks, I'd rather draft someone like Marquis Lee.
>>>>
No way do we need more rookie WR's. How many times over the last ten years have we gotten our hopes up only to see them being replaced by the next one.
Curry, Higgens, Murphy, Ford, Moore, now Streater?
We've had everything besides veteran leadership at WR.
I think there are three blue chip WRs available.. lets get one and end this recycling of rookie "answers!"
Since Marquis Lee is only a Sophmore, he will not be in the draft. For some reason I thought he was a Senior.
With that, here is what I think could happen in the draft for the Raiders.
If we keep the 3rd overall pick, we will get Manti Te'o of Notre Dame. I think it is the only way we will be able to select him.
If we trade down for a later 1st Round pick as well as a 2nd Round pick, then here is who I think we will get:
Kyle Long, OT Oregon
Jonathan Banks, CB Mississippi State
3rd Round:
Chase Thomas, OLB Stanford
4th Round:
Everett Dawkins, DT Florida State
6th Round:
Devin Taylor, DE South Carolina OR Bruce Taylor, ILB Virginia Tech
7th Round (2 picks):
Joe Vellano, DE Maryland
John Sullen, OG Auburn
Other picks I would be okay with:
Montee Ball, RB Wisconsin (4th round)
Kiko Alonso, ILB Oregon (3rd Round)
Star Lotuleli, DT Utah (1st Round)
Rodney Smith, WR Florida State (6th Round)
trade the pick for more picks this year or next and prioritize drafting DEFENSE PLEASE! on a side note, that stanford tight end (forget his name) would fill a need too... also - david shaw as OC. i know - he's not going anywhere!
So much for Trestman, he is Da' Bears' new Head Coach.
The other thing that is true about these teams is they ALL have good to great Defenses. We are lacking in both sides of the ball. Our D must be our first investment here..... We can make it better with a few key players. Coaching goes with saying.... Our lack of a good offensive plan was hard to watch as well as our Special Teams.
So much for Aaron Kromer -- Trestman hired him on day 1 to be OC/Oline coach.
Perhaps Greg Olson is our guy for OC?
...Loove beinga free-agent fan. Free your mind and have some fun, do you really think anyone cares? Go Ravens, hahaha!
Do you guys actually waste money on games?
HHaaaaaa.!!!!!!!!
One thing is for sure with the OC, O-Line, Linebacker, and Special Teams coach search; there is a shroud of mystery, and the Raiders' front office is awfully quiet.
The Titans' Special Teams coach was let go, that would be an improvement.
Especially with the interview of a Front Office guy Ray Anderson. Rumors are that Amy Trask is on her way out; or put into a lesser role.
I wonder if the talk was about the possibility of Mark Davis selling the Raiders; and what it would take to do so.
Something strange is brewing in Raider Nation. Keep your heads up, and ears to the ground.
I think this draft is going to be pretty D-Line and O-Line heavy. Not many guys worth trading up for, especially QB, RB, and WR. I think Chip Kelly going to Philadelphia is going to be interesting, and could effect the Raiders. Here's how:
Do the Eagles trade Mike Vick, their 1st Round pick to the Chiefs for the overall 1st pick in the Draft? Vick loves Andy Reid, and vice versa. I don't think Vick is happy in Philly, and he has a year left on his contract, or they pay him 15 million.
I wouldn't be surprised if they do, and the Chiefs renegotiate his contract and sign him for 3 years. The Eagles, I believe, will select Luke Joeckel, and then they will do one of the following things.
They will trade their 3rd round pick to the Jets for Tebow, or to the Raiders for Pryor; or they will select Collin Klein or Geno Smith in the 2nd or 3rd Round.
The least likely thing they do is resign Vince Young to come back and lead their team, and make different picks. Vince is a good baller, but his knock is his work ethic, or lack thereof; and Philly has already experienced that.
I would be more surprised if they kept Vick. And if Vick goes to the Chiefs, how does that effect the AFC West, or will it?
At last something-
http://www.ibabuzz.com/oaklandraiders/2013/01/17/mckenzie-commits-to-mcfadden-in-2013/
More
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54056/oakland-has-oc-options
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I thought things were going to be different once Al passed away, but so far this offseason its been the exact same script. Not only is it frustrating, its just flat out BORING.
I actually found myself browsing through Seattle Seahawks apparel the other day on nflshop.com.
I just want so badly to feel like this thing is going in the right direction. I'm getting tired of waiting for evidence from a team that's probably too secretive to share it with me anyway.
This offseason will define this new regime. Let's hope this is all part of the plan.
In one simple statement comes with it an entire year down the drain...
“It’s obvious Darren is much better on certain types of plays,” McKenzie said. “That goes without saying. That’s how you’ve got to do it.”
Really? We waited an entire season for McKenzie to reveal what we already knew?
Jones, what happened to you? Have you been so disgraced by your own misguided rants on this site that you had to go into hiding?
NYR,
I wouldn't make too big a deal out of McKenzie's statement.
The blocking scheme was changed to incorporate more power blocking.
Secondly, Reggie, by choice, didn't give interviews during the season out of respect to the coaching staff.
Calico - They are telling us that the right way is to bulld a scheme around the strengths of your personnel, a whole season after they installed a scheme that did just the opposite.
Is that just a rookie mistake?
Now, the same folks that selected Knapp are going to make another selection.
It all has me a bit concerned.
Another Offensive Coaching Candidate has appeared. Mike Tice is a possibility as OC, and Jeremy Bates, the QB Coach of the Bears was let go. Bate's been a QB offensive assistant coach for the Seahags, Doncos, USC, Bucs, and Jets.
"If we keep the 3rd overall pick, we will get Manti Te'o of Notre Dame."
****************************************************************************************************
Ummmmm, Nate75, I hope the Raiders don't go anywhere near Te'o.
By subtracting Mclain, but adding Te'o, we could end up in the same simking boat.
As far as the offense goes. Raiders have to make up their minds what they want.
Palmer is a lousy WC offense QB. But if Raiders think he is still the starter, Al Saunders makes sense.
T. Pryor looks to be best suited for the WC offense.
So if Raiders think Pryor might be the QB of the future, Saunders does not make sense.
I actually believe had Pryor played in Knapps WC offense, he would have done much better then Palmer.
2016.
Pryor fits the "pass-option" QB mold that seems to be en vogue in the NFL right now. Look how quickly the 49ers adapted to it.
Although the "pass-option" is en vouge and Pryor is best suited for it, the vast majority of successful teams used traditional, pocket passing QBs.
Of the successful pass-option QBs in the final 8 (Wilson, Kaepernick), both had outstanding defenses, running games, and overall personnel.
Flacco, Brady, Ryan (3 of final 4) plus Manning and Rodgers are traditional, pocket passers although Rodgers has good mobility.
A team's ability to adapt to different systems is largely based on coaching, talent level of 53 man roster, and the QB's skill level.
Welcome Greg Olson, Offensive Coordinator of the Oakland Raiders!
I like this move.
I like the Olson hire too. He has good OC experience with the Rams and Bucs. We also hired a very experience ST Coordinator in Bobby April who is high energy, passionate coach.
2 very good steps towards the rebuild project.
I'm a bit uninspired by Allen hiring Greg Olson. I admit I don't know much about Olsen, but here's a guy that was at least twice before an OC but was hired after last serving as QB coach. If you also consider that his first name is Greg, this sounds way too familiar.
On positive note, he favors power blocking and north/south running of the pre-Knapp Raiders.
More organizational movement-
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/20/another-name-emerges-in-possible-raiders-restructuring/
...Zzzzzzz.... instead of notching about all that you are, turn on some quality football. its called postseason. its FUN .! Lighten up you old farts. Really.
No Raiders - No Football
signed-
Old Fart
While the 49ers were rebuilding the team through the draft they used their first two picks on OFFENSE 4 of the last 6 years. Not once did they use both of their first two picks on defense since 2002.
This is the blueprint modern teams are using to rebuild their franchise quickly. Draft offense early and often, draft defense through the later rounds.
Wash and Indy used all but four picks COMBINED last year on offense.
Lets see if Reggie has been paying attention.
I was watching a little bit of the NFC championship game (49ers vs. Falcons). I happened to see Moss in action. He reminded me of a recent article mentioning Tim Brown talking about how the Packers saved the career of Charles Woodson. Towards the last few seasons as a Raider, Woodson was banged up and lacked proper workout discipline, yet there were no one in the organization to tell him to shape up. Similarly, Moss was not a factor in Oakland, but once he moved to better teams like the Patriots, then the 49ers, he still has games left.
If nothing else, the Woodson and Moss examples should wake up both the folks running the Raiders organization as well as the Raider fans.
Bye bye, grumps. I win. I might check in in 2016. Pfffft!
oak town blues
What exactly have you won?
Dumb me, you wont see this until 2016, if,in fact,you check in then.
Regardless-
both nfl network and espn are no longer on the air because the cheatriots season is over.
Oh the humanity!
Just a few observations,
NYRaider,
There is a Greg Olson who plays TE for Carolina. He was originally drafted by Chicago. That’s why the name is so familiar.
Invisible girlfriend aside, Manti Te'o is not a top five talent. From what I saw against Pittsburgh, Stanford and Alabama, he is not that good of a tackler. He has some talent, but most of his hype came from Notre Dame escaping their way to an undefeated season. In the BCS game he couldn’t handle the bigger linemen and wound up whiffing or diving and trying to make ankle tackles. Plus, it seems he is a one year wonder. His sophomore and junior years were basically average.
From a linebacker standpoint Jarvis Jones from could make more sense. He is tenacious at getting to the quarterback, covers well, has a knack for creating turnovers, and has played at a high level for two seasons. But, he seems to have a blind spot in run defense. If you try and get around him he is ok, but if you run at him he doesn’t shed the interior line blocks well. Having said that, he has been in a 3-4 his entire college career and it fits his skill set quite well. If we stick with the 4-3 it might well be we give him a pass.
This draft is fairly deep in areas we need. OL and DL. I’m in favor of trading back in the first round and picking up a second round choice.
Since I had no dog in the hunt yesterday I would say that they have to do something about the roughing the passer penalty. The Parakeets stop SF on third down, incomplete pass. The D-Lineman going for the ball lightly brushed Kaepernick’s helmet. Kaepernick’s reaction was about like a Nat flew in front of his face. He stood perfectly still and didn’t even move his eyes from downfield. Fifteen yard penalty drive stays alive, Whiners score, Parakeets lose by four. Kaepernick might have blinked on that play, which was about as bad as he was roughed.
If that’s roughing the passer, then it truly is time to invoke the Jack Lambert rule and put dresses on some of them. Now, when Palmer got clocked, cracked ribs and bruised lung, that was roughing the passer.
In the AFC game, what can you say about Flaco. In back to back weeks he outplayed arguably the two best QB’s of this generation. Good for him. Now go get a Super Bowl MVP so the Whiners don’t get another ring.
I like the restructuring of the organization. They are looking around and seeing where help is needed, hiring someone and delegating responsibility. But, it appears to be a deliberate approach. No massive overhaul until they see how the last moves turned out. Too much change at once can lead to chaos.
On the in-vogueness of the pass option, read option. We have opposing offenses in the SB. So, we will see them both on the big stage. However, it is very “in vogue” in college, but that’s not necessarily what is winning the championships. Meaning the scheme should not be the driving factor in building a team. Coaches and players should be first. The former should then figure out what fits best for the latter.
Long winded, but I only get to drop by every couple of weeks.
H
H -
Not sure what you’re referencing... I said I did not really know of Greg Olson; and that the hype surrounding him is eerily like that which followed Greg Knapp to Oakland (and it's a bit uninspiring).
Now that the Raiders have decided (after a year of failing at the opposite approach) to fit the scheme to the strengths of its personnel, read-option might be an option with Pryor. IMO, one game, Super Bowl or not, isn't a fair gauge to its overall success. The fact that SF made the SB with Kaepernick and a solid defense kind of speaks for itself... that it can be done.
nyraider said...
H -
Not sure what you’re referencing... I said I did not really know of Greg Olson; and that the hype surrounding him is eerily like that which followed Greg Knapp to Oakland (and it's a bit uninspiring).
>>>>
Thats not very fair. Most of us that hated the Knapp hire hated it because he'd already been a flop here (and stripped of his play-calling duties) PLUS the complete re-tooling of the offense to the ZBS.
Olson has some warts, but will at least return us to the PBS that was already successful. All he has to do is review the tapes from two years ago and emulate that offense... and let CP do more no-huddle.
All Knapp did was pig-heatedly throw the playbook in the trash, and then make up excuses why he didn't want CP to run the no-huddle even though it worked perfectly in defeating a pretty good Pitts team in GAME TWO. Remember when he said it's impossible to implement much??
How much no-huddle did we see in two games yesterday? I'd guess at least 40%.
Knapp was the perfect storm last year. An OC with too much power (because DA was a defensive guy) too much stubbornness, too little intellect, and ZERO creativity.
Sounds like he was nice guy though. People seemed to like him. Like that is what counts in coaching...
Now that the Raiders have decided (after a year of failing at the opposite approach) to fit the scheme to the strengths of its personnel, read-option might be an option with Pryor. IMO, one game, Super Bowl or not, isn't a fair gauge to its overall success. The fact that SF made the SB with Kaepernick and a solid defense kind of speaks for itself... that it can be done.
>>>>
He didn't really use it at all though because he didn't have to. The guy has perfect mechanics and a frigging ROCKET arm. He was basically nothing more than a pocket passer yesterday. The only run he had wasn't out of the read-option... it was simply scrambling because everyone was covered.
From another blog-
Tim Brown was a guest speaker at the Raiders HQ's for a RaiderMecca a few years back.
Tim was NOT shy in saying that Callahan blew it by changing the game plan the Friday before the SB. He spoke to us about it at length. Was VERY interesting to be sitting about six feet away from him while he opened up about all that. He said he and Gannon and Rice and Garner all went to Callahan's office to plead with him to no change the game plan. He said Callahan dismissed them outright. Wouldn't even listen to them.
One of the responses to the above post. Not sure where this guy got the info but here it is anyway -
My understanding of the timeline was Friday the game plan was changed from Power Running O that won the games against Seattle to open and KC to close the 2002 season to the short passing long handoff O that beat the Jets and Titans in the playoffs. After practice, team offensive leaders including Gannon, Rice, Brown, Robbins and others went to talk to Callahan to get him to change his mind... Robbins comes back from that meeting, goes into his hotel room and catches Terry Kirby in bed with his wife.
Robbins goes on a bender in SD, heads to TJ when the bars close, is found by a couple Raider fans @6am, is brought to the border and put in a cab back to the Hotel, arrives around 8am for the morning meeting and is told he is out for the game the next day...
Then tumbles into a mental tail spin and has to be hospitalized.
Terry Kirby is cut a few days later, is immediately signed by Tampa Bay, then is cut three days later and when FA starts, no team brings him in for a workout or a look
Tim Brown speaks about it here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPdGlF76Jg8&feature=youtu.be
Bad memories...
Watching Senior Bowl practice and Tarver is very high energy shouting out encouragement and giving coaching points. I like it.
H - It is the new 'letter of the law' -- ANY contact, no matter the force, with a QB's head to include his face mask is a penalty these days.
Kaepernick has a strong, accurate arm and shows remarkable poise and confidence in his abilities. Down 0-17, on the road in a very loud stadium, with a SB berth on the line, he came up big in leading the Niners. You've got to tip you hat to the young man.
Gary - It's not being critical as much as it is skeptical. Olsen's resume is no more impressive than Knapp's (except we believe Olsen uses more power run blocking) and he was picked by the same guy that thought Knapp was his man.
Meanwhile, the Raiders have a tremendous offense-minded coach on staff in Al Saunders; who is someone that has seen first hand what works and what doesn't work in Oakland. I wonder if Saunders was ever an option (this year or last year).
Btw, how do you know Olsen will use more no-huddle?
memfd,
That is an interesting video. I've never seen Tim speak out like that against a coach, ever!
That leaves the questions, why did he change the game plan the Friday before the Super Bowl? Why did John Lynch say at halftime to the reporter, "This is exactly what we expected them to do." Was it because Callahan gave Gruden his game plan?
Calico,
Maybe so, but my almost three year old grandson smacks me harder than that just horsing around.
nyraider said...
Gary - It's not being critical as much as it is skeptical. Olsen's resume is no more impressive than Knapp's (except we believe Olsen uses more power run blocking) and he was picked by the same guy that thought Knapp was his man.
Meanwhile, the Raiders have a tremendous offense-minded coach on staff in Al Saunders; who is someone that has seen first hand what works and what doesn't work in Oakland. I wonder if Saunders was ever an option (this year or last year).
Btw, how do you know Olsen will use more no-huddle?
>>>>
I can only hope. Thats all the off-season is about, isn't it? Like I hope Reggie picks up one of the bluechip o-lineman instead of a "flavor of the week" defensive stud that flop as often as turn out.
BTW... everything I heard has Saunders simply not interested in being OC and calling plays.
I think this will be Olson's first venture into play-calling... could that be right? If so, maybe he would WELCOME more no-huddle instead of coming in thinking he has all the answers like Knapp did?
Now Jerry Rice, Charlie Garner, Jon Ritchie, and Marquis Tuiasosopo agree with Tim Brown's statement that Callahan sabotaged the Super Bowl against the Bucs.
Gannon, Lincoln Kennedy, and Bill Romanowski (all who had a problem with Al Davis) defended Callahan today. I'm interested in hearing what other players have to say on this matter. I'm really interested if ESPN allows Jon Gruden to comment on this, and if Callahan himself will comment on this.
Zack Crockett also agrees with Tim Brown, and Rod Woodson disagrees.
What say you Raider Nation? Is there some merit to what is being said, or do you disagree?
If it is true, I would like to see proof; otherwise file this in the old "Raiders' Conspiracy Theories of Unsolved Mysteries."
Going from a run-heavy package of Wheatley, Garner, and Crockett that was installed and practiced during the week leading up to the SB to changing to a lopsided, pass happy attack the Friday before the SB is at the very least negligent.
From a purely strategic and practical point of view, this last minute change put the nail in our coffin. Our OLine avg. 320lbs while the Bucs DLine avg. 280lbs. It was such a 180 degree, last minute change that it made any preparation and execution a tough task.
Anyone remember the Warren Sapp quote? The one where he said Mr.Davis would change the gameplan late in the week fairly often?
If Callahan had done the change up, why didn't Mr.Davis fire him 'for cause'? Changing up the gameplan on Friday would have to be a Mr.Davis move, if it was done, otherwise, Cally would have been canned.
I also notice all those players who say it never happened are in the media business that is tied to the league. There is defintely more to this story than meets the ear.
Also, remember the Randy Moss quote about "something fishy". I'm hoping the 'crazytrain' days are done.
JONES
Callahan was coaching the "dumbest team in America," so there's no way he's responsible for changing the game plan Friday before the game. That would make him the dumbest coach in America.
Jones, is it safe for you to be here? You still have some humble pie to eat!
As Mike Florio weighs Callahans options for a lawsuit against Brown Rice, I found this observation to be the most interesting:
4. Callahan would expose himself to significant criticism.
If the case goes forward, many former Raiders players and coaches will be questioned under oath. And while they will have different perceptions and beliefs about the reasons for the decisions made and not made by Callahan, the questioning will rehash everything that happened in preparation for the game, including whether the game plan was changed and why the audibles and other terminology installed by Buccaneers coach Jon Gruden during his time as the Raiders coach wasn’t.
In other words, and as Kuselias framed the issue last night, Callahan was either corrupt or incompetent. By proving he wasn’t corrupt, Callahan could end up shining a bright light on the notion that he is incompetent.
I think we'd all love to hear why Callahan didn't change the audibles and terminology installed by Gruden.
Oh boy ... the latest episode of Raiders: The Soap Opera. Episode title: 'Sabotage-Bowl?'
Althogh teammates like Rice has supported Brown's view, the story is still a cup of muddy water, as other teammates like Gannon has defended Callahan. Whatever Callahan says about that Friday with his own words should be the interesting.
Darn ... Robbins is no longer available. Had he been alive, his words would have carried a considerable weight.
Brown has always been an extremely class act. But apparently this is something he's been saying since his retirement. I can't believe that this is something Brown (or Rice, for that matter) would say unless he sincerely believed it. I think you can at least somewhat discount what the Raider defensive players say, because they wouldn't necessarily be informed of Offensive game plan changes.
Sapp (who was with the Bucks at the time) hasn't issued an opinion. I'd disregard it anyway because he's a Troll like JONES.
You also have to take into account that the Buck defensive players said the Raiders ran the exact plays that the Bucks had practiced against. Even though the whole playbook was Gruden's, he wouldn't know which precise plays Callahan would choose. Clearly, if the Raiders had run a run heavy game plan, things would have been different.
Some of the players who say it didn't happen are changing the facts somewhat. They say the game plan was changed because the run wasn't effective in the first half. They only ran 10 runs in the first half - so how would they have known?
I also remember how the players seemed to reject Callahan in his second season from day one. And remember that Callahan wanted to completely change the offense in his second year, even with all the success they had in his first.
Right now, I'm leaning with Brown.
Also, I've always wondered what might have pushed Robbins over the edge. Sure, they were about to play the SB, but he had held up just fine through the playoffs. Many SB veterans have said the pressure backs off slightly when you reach the SB. They say that relaxing into the game is what causes a SB letup loss.
But think about the pressure that Callahan put on his center by changing the game plan without time to practice it. I don't care what the situation is. It seems the height of stupidity to change a SB game plan without time to practice it. At the very least, Callahan had to know that he was seriously handicapping his team.
Blanda
I posted earlier that from Fans In Black forum Robbins found his wife in bed with Terry Kirby and then went AWOL.
Not sure of the posters credibility and also the fact that there has been no info, not even a rumor until this post. The fact that Robbins was as good as he was, I find it hard to think changing the game plan made him lose it.
Calico Jack said...
Going from a run-heavy package of Wheatley, Garner, and Crockett that was installed and practiced during the week leading up to the SB to changing to a lopsided, pass happy attack the Friday before the SB is at the very least negligent.
From a purely strategic and practical point of view, this last minute change put the nail in our coffin. Our OLine avg. 320lbs while the Bucs DLine avg. 280lbs. It was such a 180 degree, last minute change that it made any preparation and execution a tough task.
>>>>
Sorry.. I am not buying this for a second. That offense had veterans all over the place and could have ran that passing offense IN THEIR SLEEP.
I'd buy this if they suddenly switched to a run heavy offense a few days before the SB.. but the pass-heavy offense is what they ran all year long. A team of veterans doesn't know how to implement the same offense they have been using all year? Please.. thats as crazy as Brown himself saying Callahan wanted to lose!
What they should have been working on is decoying the audibles and pump fakes so TB thought one thing was going to happen, but something entirely different happened.
It was negligent of Callahan to just stick to scrip. But nobody coaches to lose the SB.
I am questioning Tim Brown's IQ right now.
Right now, I'm leaning with Brown.
>>>>
The guy sounds like he has been hanging with JaMarcus and the purple drank.
Now he is saying he never accused Callahan of throwing the game, because he said he can't PROVE IT.
Uhh, he DID make the accusation. Duh. Just because one sez they can't prove it doesn't make the accusation go away. Its still an accusation.
Tim Brown was great receiver for the raiders, but he seems to have the IQ of a turnip here. Why even make the accusation in the first place? It sounds ridiculous and moronic.
NYR...humble pie? For what, you accuse me of being way off, but you refuse to be specific.
Overall, the time we have both spent on this blog, I would think that you would be eating more humble pie, using - being 'accurate' in their words as the standard. Until you can pinpoint the exact reason for the humble pie...then STFU. And if you want to go over history on this blog of what we have both written....you aren't in my league, NYR...how's that for humble pie? Flat out tell me how I was "wrong", will you do it?
JONES
"NYR...humble pie? For what, you accuse me of being way off, but you refuse to be specific."
Really, Jones?
You have a short memory..LOL... after spending an entire season ranting on this site with your self-regarding “big-brother” bullshit clairvoyance about the organizational master plan to create a roster to fit the scheme, only to have the entire offensive philosophy (and Special Teams coaching) sent packing within 24-hours of the season end.
You want more specific? Go back and read all your misguided posts for the last 9+ months.
You think far too highly of yourself, Jones. My guess is you're suffering from a bit of a Napoleon complex.
Now sit back and enjoy your pie!
That's how the regime was handling the situation, they were wanting the players to fit the scheme. Look at what Allen was trying to put in from DAY 1, this was the scheme he wanted and he wanted the players to adapt to it. They couldn't, so from orders from above, he was told to change it. Didn't help much, did it?
Not till Mark Davis spoke out, did it start to change. On the Defensive side of the ball, they played the basically the same Defense throughout the year. Didn't you say they changed up the Defense in a short 4 day week?
You have made plenty of errors on here, I don't even come close to your number. Pounding your chest like a posturing gorilla, doesn't make you a victor, it makes you an idiot.
By the way, John Madden agreed with what I was writing. Allen got the word that the ZBS wasn't welcome anymore, he had to change it. Knapp was an obvious choice, I wrote many weeks ago, go look, saying that if there were coaching changes, he would be the one to go.
I'm so afraid NYR, please don't cyber bully me, you have me all scared and that isn't nice, is it NYR? You are the accuser, you are the one that has to show the proof, bring it on, stop the strawmen.
JONES
Fun fact: ALL FOUR of the starting tackles were drafted in the first round. As well as one of the guards.
And there are people screaming for defense with our number three pick?
GET THE SURE THING REGGIE! Pick either Joekel, or Warmack at three!
memdf, I don't by the Kirby story. When a team travels for the SB, they don't bring their wives. The team stays together, and they double up in the rooms. I'm not saying that Robbins' wife wasn't in SD, just that it makes it more unlikely.
Frankly, that ANY member of the Raiders believes that Callahan would do that speaks volumes about Callahan and the fact that he lost the team prior to the SB, and NOT the following season. Our problems did not begin in after "the dumbest team in America" remark. They began that Friday before the SB.
On a positive note, the Raiders hired Tony Sparano as OLine/Asst. Head coach.
As far as the Callahan controversy, I lean towards the side of incompetence/negligence which entirely different than purposeful sabotage.
Blanda
I have no friggin idea what happened that week. What I do not believe is that a change in game plan would make Robbins go South, literally.
At this point in time my only concern is that this mess may taint Brown for the Hall. He is one if my favorite Raiders and I was hoping he would get inducted so I could attend because I think no other Raider will be in my lifetime.
Calico Jack said...
On a positive note, the Raiders hired Tony Sparano as OLine/Asst. Head coach.
As far as the Callahan controversy, I lean towards the side of incompetence/negligence which entirely different than purposeful sabotage.
>>>
I agree fully.
So much for being sincere in your posts, huh Jones? So now you’re saying you didn’t just spend an entire season holding the coaches up on a pedestal while trashing the players and telling us the change the Raiders are facing (on the field) will be exclusively player-driven?
That wasn’t you?
Your funniest moment this year was toward the end of the season once you realized your theory was flawed you tried worming out of it by suggesting the coaches could be “upgraded”.
That’s classic!
Keep up the good work, Jones.
I backed the coaches, unlike yourself, I said the core wasn't good enough. Like I told you NYR, Assistant coaches can and should be upgraded just like the players, the coaches could be upgraded and or couldn't fit what Allen/McKenzie wanted. Not once did I ever write that the coaches were irreplacable.
Before the season, I backed what Reggie was doing 100%, still do. I also thought the players would be very inspired, being released from the mayhem that was the Mr.Davis era. But, as the season went on, I saw that the old way was still very stuck in the core of the team. This is when I realized that most coaches in the league would not have succeeded as a Raider coach this last year.
Looking back, the team was starting over, McKenzie needed to get a HC with a team full of small talent and poor attitude. Allen was told to hire his own guys, his time was limited and the pickens were slim. Upgrading some of those choices this year is a good move. Just like dumping the overpaid and overrated players still put on a pedestal by you, is a good move.
I stood behind the new leaders of the Raiders (unlike yourself) and gave it to the players because it wasn't the 1st time I saw the core players give up or show lack of desire needed to compete in the NFL. I saw the core give up in the 2nd game of the season, with a new regime leading them. To me, that is inexcusable. I saw the lack of leadership, lack of talent in new systems, expecting Allen and Co. to win with this core, became a dream.
So I resigned to the FACT that these players needed to be replaced before I was going to judge the new regime. Never said Knapp was a top OC, never said to keep him or the ST coach. I am for what will bring this team back to the top and I am behind this regime 100%. You can waiver and you can throw them under the bus, I won't, until it is proven that they are not the ones for the job.....meanwhile, the core players have proven over many years, that they are not the right ones for the job. If you are going to paint a picture, NYR, then back it with proof, otherwise, it's just a picture.
JONES
New take is up: A Question of Sabotage
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