One Postgame Take
A headline after today's game: "Jets vs Raiders: Geno Smith ends streak of 5 games without a touchdown pass." Just in time for Christmas, our defense has regressed to become the gift that keeps on giving. Smith’s passer ratings over the preceding three games were 10, 22 and 8. Today, his rating was 88. Prior to today's game, Geno Smith was a punchline. Tonight, he's a storyline. Charles Woodson called today's defensive performance "inexcusable." (and that wasn't all he said.) He is right, so please hold the excuses. When Smith turned away from the sideline and lowered his shoulder to take on one of our DBs instead of stepping out of bounds at the end of a 32-yard run in the fourth quarter, that was all you needed to know about how fearsome our defense was today. Two plays later, Chris Ivory busted four "tackles" for a 15-yard touchdown. With less than six minutes to go, we were on the move and down 17, making it a three score game. With 5:24 on the clock at the Jets' 33-yard line, Reece ran for seven yards. The next snap came at the 4:45 mark. Do the math. The only thing keeping the clown car in the garage tonight is the 27 points we were able to post. McGloin's a scrapper, but I'll be surprised if he turns into a franchise quarterback. I just don't see it. Special teams? Not special. As NY Raider said, we were outplayed and out-coached today. I've spent much of the past week defending myself for daring to question if things weren't proceeding optimally in the executive and coaching ranks of the Oakland Raiders. There's no doubt that the decks were stacked against Reggie and DA when they came on board, but that doesn't mean they've made the most of the opportunity to date. We've been rebuilding for two years, and it seems like we're still pounding nails into the foundation. I've been told that Year 3 is when everything changes. Well, Year 3 starts in four weeks. They'd better hit the ground running.
posted by Raider Take at 7:32 PM
74 Comments:
This team is short on talent and depth. It is the type of team where all 3 units need to perform at a competent or above average level to secure a win.
Today our D and special teams let us down while our offense punched above their weight especially considering the injuries.
At this point, it is more evaluation of the existing roster to make plans for 2014. Which players are worth keeping? Which players continue to fight? Which players correct mistakes from the previous week, etc?
Not a lot of fun for a fan but that is our reality.
I think you guys are missing the point.
Just saying the defense was lousy, doesn't begin to explain the woeful Raiders.
Problem is, the LOSING CULTURE, is still alive & well in Oakland.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit if next game, the D bounces back, only to see some other part of team lose game.
And that is the problem. Raiders keep patching one hole over here, only to find 3 more holes springing over there.
LOSING CULTURE HAS A TIGHT, FIRM GRIP ON THE RAIDERS.
Raiders need real football people to come in, address problems, and clean the house.
Dennis Allen has as much emotion as Robert Young, on "father knows best".
Reg Mckenzie can barely speak english.
It looks to me like Raiders are going nowhere fast.
LOSING CULTURE, is still running this team.
Raiders need strong leaders that can cut the cancer out.
2016 will be the soonest I'd expect eight or more solid wins, but yeah, you are spot on, 00; they cant even LOSE solid. The clowns have packed their big shoes for the year. They cannot bear KC at home, but, hey, watch Oakland surprise us all! Go Oak.
More disappointing than the loss is that the Raiders were never really in the game.
It's probably easy to point to a lack of depth to explain some of the breakdowns. Yet, aside from a couple rotational players, the Raiders have mostly the same personnel on defense that they had when they were having some success on D.
Teams have figured out the Raiders can't defend hurry up offense. I've never seen so much pre-snap confusion by a defense. If that was a ploy to disguise the defense, it didn’t work.
Special teams is another area that had performed well but now seems to have regressed. Things are really bad when one of the best ST players in the league (Condo) misses his assignment and allows a clear path for a blocked punt TD. And I question fielding a kick-off at the 1 which appeared to be heading out-of-bounds (reminiscent of fair catching a punt inside the 5 a couple weeks ago). That ultimately led to 7 points for the Jets.
On offense, I don't know whether to commend Greg Olsen for his ability to work around all the injuries he's dealt with this year or condemn him for narrow and unimaginative playcalling week after week... and for not instilling some level of urgency when the game was still on the line Sunday. It was tough to watch running plays when clock management was so critical.
I like McGloin a lot, and wonder how different this team would be with better WRs and O-line with him running the show. McGloin is a game manager, and a cerebral QB. I think he has what it takes to get the job done.
If we do draft a QB, I hope we stay away from Manziel. I don't like the fluff of Johnny Manziel. The guy has horrible throwing mechanics and is going to be an NFL bust like JaMarcus and Tim Tebow. Stay away from this brat.
The more this season goes on, the more I'm turning against this coaching staff. I'm tired of hearing, "We are playing to the talent we have." We have ok talent, in some cases it is slightly above average. We have enough talent to where we should be at 8 wins. We see glimpses of glory, but the coaching is not aggressive enough. I was mad yesterday at how the Raiders played and were unprepared for this game. The only bright spot was McGloin and Reece. Reece proved to me that he could be the Tyrone Wheatley we need.
Reece is another example of poor coaching. You hear DA and Olsen say things like, "we have to find a way to get Reece the ball." Why do you have to find a way? Just get him the ball! There's no secret formula there to get him the ball! Screens, shovel passes, direct hand offs, just give him the damn ball!
The clock management is horrible, and again, a very common mistake of young Head Coaches; but Olsen is not a young guy. He's a veteran OC who should know better. You have to know what your next move is, and it seems like he doesn't know where he wants to go next. The same with Tarver. This coaching staff needs to show me something, instead of writing off this season.
The most glaring to me for the season is how we have made progress, but at the same time taken 3 steps backward. I think the only losing culture left here, that Raider 00 refers to, is on the offensive side of the ball. McFadden, Moore, Khalif Barnes, Jacoby Ford, Lucas Nix, Briesel. These guys have given up on the season, yet again.
Lamar Houston is playing to get out of Oakland, he will not re-sign with us. I hate it too, because he's a damn good football player.
Again, I'm pretty upset today, and we all should be. This team was completely unprepared for their game. A game that they should have dominated and won.
A team full of holes, injuries, lack of talent, no depth won't compete.
Let's use that cap money wisely. We need two guards, one tackle, a WR, a healthy Latavius Murray and a drafted RB to compete with Jennings. Bye-Bye MvFragile.
Also need DL depth, a premiere pass rusher at DE, linebacker depth, at least one good young CB a safetry to replace the soon departing Woodson and a great QB.
Hell of a shopping list isn't it?
"I think the only losing culture left here, that Raider 00 refers to, is on the offensive side of the ball."
************************************************************
I don't know RaiderNate75.
It looked to me that the Raiders offense was trying to make a big comeback in 2nd half.
Only to find the defense couldn't stop the great Geno Unitas.
Nor could the D tackle, or cover, anybody.
But next week the D might show up, and the offense will be flat.
That's what I mean by Losing Culture.
We cannot really pinpoint the problems.
Every game, the Raiders find a new way to lose.
It's not always just one thing.
It could be the D, the 0, the ST's, penalties, turnovers, poor coaching. You name it, it's spread across the board.
How to fix it ?
Marc Davis needs to get real football people that won't stand for anymore of the bullspit.
A GM, and a HC with real stature, that will stand before the players and say...THIS BEATING OURSELVES CRAP IS OVER RIGHT NOW!!!!!
Believe me, this goes a long way if it comes from the right source.
But hey, no worries. We have Dennis Allen.
Just be careful not to tap him on the shoulder during a game...It's dangerous to wake a sleepwalker.
...hey, when you start thinking it's tuff being a Raiders fan, just think: Buffalo. Cleveland. ...and all the other teams that have NO history AND no future. I mean, relying on nostalgia in the present tense is stupid, but, let's face it, dealing with a team that has sucked for a long time and has a few years of repairs to make ain't so bad. 2016 is NOT a pitiful post. 2016 is NOT a white flag on this year, or next year. 2016 is an attainable goal for this business, who's job it is is to sell enough seats for folks to spend their hard-earned dollars on. That means playing the sport, not running around like windswept ants for an hour or so. If you were an investor, how much stock would you buy in OakTown TODAY, and, how long would you hold it for? That means buy it and forget about it. Tuck it away because, over the long haul, it will come around. It's a process. So: I highly recommend we "stock up" and watch calmly as the tide turns. I'd like to see a competitive team out there, but, unfortunately, the business side of the Al Davis exit plan, as much as a wonderful renegade as he was, has pot holes to be filled and shanties to be rebuilt before Oak Town is a place where anyone really wants to shop, live, work, and call home. Until then, Oak Town IS Blue. I am looking for my long term investment to take a fun jump for a few years down the road, but, until then, I am extremely content with my residence and stake in this 'Town. If you're not comfortable with the state of the union on mani Street in OakTown, well, you may move to snootier part of town, or the dirtier paret of town. As for me, I will take the business as I see it, and carry on, my wayward pirates. 2 0 1 6, with high hopes, and, if not? Well, I am an owner, not a renter.
OTBlues,
And 2016 is not a guarantee either.
It is a hope. A wish and a prayer.
A distant date to hang your hopes on, and make you feel better about what's happening right now.
The Raiders need some fire, and emotion, right now.
A plan and a blueprint, right now.
A real leader that can show them the way out of the darkness, and into the light, right now.
You make it sound as if, in 2 years, some magical switch will be turned on.
Given the Raiders current state, I just can't see it.
OTB -
Sorry but I disagree. It is kind of pitiful. Coming here and typing “2016" once a week doesn’t take much thought, and certainly doesn’t add to the dialogue.
Why don’t you tell us what you think the Raiders should do to make 2016 a viable year to meet your high expectation?
wrt your last post, Al Davis had no "exit plan." He managed (or mismanaged, depending on your viewpoint) for the moment. Arguably, that's largely why the Raiders are in this mess.
And the notion that anyone would want to buy stock in today's Raiders (ala buy low, sell high) seems to embody a significant difference between the AL years and the current regime. Nobody in their right mind would have bought Raiders' stock three years ago.
Um, well, pack this into your cranium: Hope is fun and I dont know why able bodied players cant keep up. There you go. PS, my happiness is in no way based on any sport, so, you can ditch that lofty assumption too.
Raiders 00 - I agree with some parts of your posts. No doubt, the team has fallen short this year and the past 11 seasons.
The TEAM (meaning all 3 units) has a difficult time playing well collectively for a half or game.
Let's keep it simple: The reason the Raiders are struggling is a shortage of talent and depth.
No way around the fact that DA/McK inherited a HUGE mess to clean up.
DA/McK have a plan to rebuild the team with players who love football, are talented, with personal character.
The rebuilding of the roster REQUIRED some serious, unpleasant, dirty work which was gutting the roster on the one hand, and filling it on a limited budget on the other hand.
Now that the Raiders are in a position to rebuild in earnest (get serious talent upgrades) in year 3 is not the time, IMO, to start over with new leadership.
I'm anxious and optimistic about 2014. I also stand firm on giving DA/McK next year to prove their worth to the organization.
In a way it would seem unfair and unjust to show these guys the door any sooner than the end of next season.
Indeed. Simply stated, 2016 is a benchmark of patience. And thats a virtue that is excellent to commit to.
Why is it unfair to show these guys the door. They have not produced. Excuses aside there is no discernible progress. They got their ass kicked by the Jets a terrible team. In two years there has not been any significant, game breaking type talent added to the team. I mean not one guy.
Sorry I am not cool waiting till 2016. Allen has not raised the level of the team or come up with any brilliant coaching performances. Reggie has not made an impact or really hit on any free agents or draft picks in two years. Briesel, Flynn, Hayden, Watson, Bergstrom, Burriss etc.
Sorry I don't buy that you need to spend two years cleaning house and then start adding talent. If that is the case we will be lucky to have a competitive team in 2016.
If you could point to a couple of gems Reggie has added or a couple of standout coaching moves I might say give them time but there is just no real evidence that these two buffoons can do it. In fact there is considerably more evidence to the contrary.
Allen is way way over his head. There is a reason certain coaches make huge money. Get a proven guy in there. Why do you think Palmer wanted out so bad he knew Allen sucked. Speak of which look at that guy Arians in Arizona that is a real coach.
Not sure why Reggie is getting so much love look at this year's draft. Yes you need to give a draft a few years to judge it as they say blah blah.
But as sit here and watch Kyle Long dominate and I look at the Raiders draft this year you have to say at this moment in time Reggie had an awful awful draft. As it stands today no one can say the draft looks good. TRUTH
The question really boils down to one simple question and a few facts.
Question: How do you add significant talent to a team.
Answer: Through the draft, free agency, trades, and undrafted rookies.
Fact: In year 1 of the rebuild, the Raiders had no high draft picks and no money to spend. Existing players who were high priced and performed poorly were cut.
Fact: In year 2, the Raiders had draft choices, more veterans to shed, and no significant money to spend on free agents.
Judging this rookie class is premature but in my view, DJ Hayden, Melenik Watson, Sio Moore, and Mychel Rivera are players who have a chance to be building blocks. The jury is out.
DJ Hayden has talent and character and a unique backstory. Watson has the physical tools but is raw. Moore is a stud. Rivera is developing into a pass catching TE who can do damage.
Fast forward to year 3 and you have a situation where the locker room is rid of toxicity, the spending dollars available on free agents is $50M+, another draft class on the way, and you've got young players developing.
To continue to sweep the mess that DA/McK inherited under the rug like it didn't impact the talent level of the roster is ignorant.
More succinctly, for all the fans not willing to give DA/McK a 3rd year, I've got a simple question to pose:
How would you have re-made the 53 man roster under the circumstances DA/McK faced?
Put your GM hat on and tell me how you would go about adding elite talent with the Raiders circumstances ...
McKenzie reshuffled the deck with a shoe string budget to re-field 10 of 11 defensive starters ... he also added guys like Streater, Holmes, Jennings, Gourde, Pashos, McGloin, on a VERY limited budget.
Most teams are lucky to have 1 or 2 rookies who make an impact in year 1. Most teams are able to add talent through free agency with $30M+ to spend. The Raiders didn't have the money to spend and have some 1st year players who can become building blocks.
...I never said to wait til 2016, it's just how long I think, minimally, it will take until the team has enough talent and rhythm. it's actually more of a hypothesis than a "hope"... I really think that when you BLOW UP a team, and juggle QB's, well, the stable teams will, without question, eat Raiders for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I am not being negative, and I am not saying wait. i have always said, if you are gonna lose, at least lose with some sort of internal victory. Only this team knows that, we do not. Nor should we. it's none of our business. This is, after all, entertainment. are you not entertained? Well, I am not. Unless you like seeing your team get beaten classless YEAR in and YEAR out. Wishing for a winning season next year is fine, it happens all the time... just a few tweeks, that's all... but I would be surprised, and so would much of the known universe. Peace out. I leave the "how do we fix this" stuff to Take and the ones who actually have time to invest in the actual gameplay each week. As for me, I enjoy this take, it keeps me informed. (which is why I find debating posters as lame).
Mike Shanahan
Art Shell
Mike White
Joe Bugel
Jon Gruden
Bill Callahan
Norv Turner
Art Shell
Lane Kiffin
Tom Cable
Hue Jackson
This list speaks for itself, and we all know the sometimes bizarre circumstances which led to HCs being fired on average every two years.
In complete contrast with the last 25 years, all indications are that the Raiders are currently experiencing unprecedented open communications between the owner, GM and HC. We also are about to embark on long overdue continuity among these three key positions, i.e., a crucial third year.
Listen, I’m not content to watch the Raiders lose winnable games, but the suggestions being made that 2013 draft picks are busts and that McKenzie should fire Allen and/or Mark Davis should fire McKenze and not allow this regime a another year is shortsighted and reckless.
Its not short sighted and reckless if they are not getting results and in two years they have not gotten results. No one can say the team has improved from 3 years ago. The only measure of improvement is wins and losses everything else is just talk.
CJ, NY you say year three is magic time and when they should be held accountable. Man I wish I had a job with a two year pass.
Okay so if they don't win 8 games next year are you guys are cool with Reggie and Allen being gone?
You’re missing the point. The kind of turnover you suggest means the organization will have learned nothing from its history of epic failures.
On the surface (based on W-L), you may think firing McKenize and Allen sounds reasonable but if you understand football (which I think you do), then you understand teams can turn the corner quickly once the components are in place. Also, you would know labeling draft picks as busts in their first year of service is unreasonable.
The Raiders lost some tough games this year by a couple plays that didn't go their way. My expectation (with no guarantee) is that they improve their talent in 2014 and make good on those types of games.
If that process is too tough for you to bear, you might want to hang with OTB. You guys can watch Seahawks games.
I'm torn on the coaching topic, and since I'm not inside the building, it's hard to say.
The storyline earlier this season was how competitive we were. Now the storyline is becoming how awful our roster is, so it's unreasonable to expect them to compete. It doesn't add up.
(You can cite a few injuries, but everyone is injured in the NFL.)
Several years ago, I said hire a competent GM and a competent coach, get out of their way and give them three years. So I have a history with advocating this.
That said, when I see our team getting outcoached and regressing on the field in year two, I can't fault Mark Davis if he's getting anxious.
And just because you give guys three years doesn't mean you can't critique their performance along the way, despite what I've been told.
it's a combination of factors. I admire Pittsburgh's Coach/QB tenure. Stick with your guy. The most embarrasing thing about Oaktown is exactly that: Turnovers, both on the field, and, morseo, off. Perhaps there's a connection.
Strong FOOTBALL TAKE, Take. Any coach that is judged only by W-L is poorly judged. Any player that is judged by his coaching is also poorly judged. Fact remains, if you are a dog kept on a short leash, and you see the cliff up ahead, you will bite who's walking you, voluntarily or not. Simple.
Critiquing the process is absolutely fair game. That's what we do, and it’s why we're here.
Knapp was a horrible hire; Flynn was a terrible trade. I'm not going to defend either. And I would agree we have seen some regression in terms of what appeared to be sound improvements earlier in the season.
It's ironic but we have pondered the “player or coaches fault” here many times in the past, and for many regimes.
This time I believe it's much different. This time, we have GM and HC communicating and trying to solve the problems. Allen states as much at his PCs and there's no reason not to believe him... it's not Kiffin-Gate!
I stand by the notion that there has NOT been adequate opportunity and resources to simply say the task is over their head.
Besides, it's not like top level GMs and HCs are lining up at Mark Davis' office looking for work. Replacing McKenize will be no easy task, and even the best candidate can fall flat on his/her face in Oakland... or anywhere else for that matter.
PS If things don't change, I will be standing on the other side of the fence this time next year.
NY I agree with you bro continuity is important but continuity with quality. When you call me impatient I hear ya but hey I just can not point to anything with Reggie or Dennis that makes me say.....a resounding yes these are the guys. Can you?
Let me give you an example. You say you need a few years to judge a draft.
Okay but I also think you can also take a look at it right now. So lets do that: Hayden, Watson these guys are not on the field and when they were they were more or less crap. Look at Star, Alonso, Mingo, Richardson and a dozen other guys who are producing right now.
Sorry man but that is the truth. The guys Reggie picked are not playing guys other GMs picked are and some are playing really well. So if I want to draw some early conclusions I have to say we did not have a good draft. Maybe in time it will prove different but right now today that is an indisputable fact.
I mean if Reggie had drafted Kyle Long I would be saying great pick. Reggie really knows his stuff. But he did not draft Kyle Long so why in the hell would i give him the benefit of the doubt. Same thing goes with Briesel, Flynn and Allen
I have said before that Reggie assembled some average talent from mediocre scraps of other teams and college free agents. Lets give him credit for that. But that does not give him some long term pass. He has done not one thing that makes me go WOW.
Allen is just pathetic. Once the Raiders fire him he will never be a HC again. Listen to Woodson he always tells the truth, he is saying the team sucks and he wants out. Obviously he is nto seeing the future that bright.
Bottom line Reggie and Allen came to the Raiders as unproven so you can't say hey lets give these guys lots of time because we know they will turn it around like they did for other teams. They both came as rookies and in two years have not done anything ground breaking.
As far as loosing tough games by a couple of plays guess what they won a couple of games by a few plays. Pitt, Houston came down to the last play of the game.
Funny you mention the Seahawks you know what they did to turn around the team. They went out and got a proven coach, someone who deserves the benefit of the doubt. Look what happened to SF when they went and got a real coach. Why oh why did Reggie bring a neophyte into such a difficult situation I will never know.
I just read that the Raiders are carrying 13mm on the cap for Seymour. That was Reggie's doing not Al's so lets take that into account next time someone wants to make Reggie out to be the guy that has cleaned up the mess.
You are consumed with second-guessing, using hindsight and insincerity to make your point.
Woodson never said "the team sucks and he wants out." I listened to the audio. He was bothered by the play of the entire defense, and focused on his not properly defending a screen pass that ended up being a huge play for the Jets. He was right there and watched the play go by him.
It makes no sense to second guess draft picks right now. When Raiders selected Robert Gallery that appeared to be one of most sensible picks Al Davis ever made. Get the point?
And if you think Allen is pathetic based on W-L you haven't been paying attention. Do you watch his press conferences? He is more informed about football than you know.
This team is trying to solve a problem greater than any other teams has ever faced.
To reiterate, if they fail once given the appropriate opportunity and resources, I will be standing firmly on the other side of the fence. You can bank on it. I have no horse in this race... only the Raiders and my own selfish interests in mind.
Folks are quick to call for firing McKenzie and Allen.
To borrow a saying, it’s only a problem if you have a solution.
So careful what you wish for...
Right now, several teams with established and respected GM and HC combinations are doing poorly, and some worse than the Raiders. Football is a funny business in that regard. You have to be better than good; you need some luck.
Unless you think the combination of Bruce Allen and Mike Shanhan is pathetic too. Shanahan is not somebody I'd want to coach the Raiders, yet he led the Broncos to a couple superbowl wins.
Amazing how a Head Coach looks better when he has a talented, deep roster.
To be blunt, Reggie was dealt a really shitty hand as a new GM in terms of the roster he inherited, the lack of draft picks in 2012, bad contracts, cap hell, etc.
As far as Reggie's ability to evaluate talent and get the most bang for his buck, we shall see this next offseason.
During the course of the 2014 season, we shall also see whether or not the players he picked in 2012 and 2013, and acquired off the scrap heap pan out and develop.
The winning formula is a combination of talent, a coherent vision, and stability.
I'm not stuck on DA & McK. If they don't perform at a much higher standard next year with the necessary resources and time allotted within 3 years, than a new path needs to be set.
My baseline for 2014 is a min. of 8 wins.
NY have you taken over for Jones and are now just arguing with anyone who says boo against Reggie
Hayden and Watson both have looked mediocre to crap not like starters by any means. Those were Reggie's first two picks. NY you are the one being insincere by refusing to acknowledge those picks look like crap picks as of Dec 9 2013.
The team would be in a much better position if they had picked numerous other players such as Richardson and Lotulelei. The two guys picked right after Hayden. Star is going to be a franchise player.
That is not hindsight that is fact. You are welcome to tell me that Reggie deserves more time but trying to tell me that the pick of Hayden as of this writing was not a screw up and a lost opportunity is just bs
The Raiders have amazing opportunity next year to change the cours eof the franchise. The potential to draft an impact (top 5) player and enough cap room to sign multiple free agents must not be squandered. I want Reggie gone because he has not shown that he can take full advantage of this situation
The lack of context and true sincerity is spelled out with this ignorant comment,
"I want Reggie gone because he has not shown that he can take full advantage of this situation"
Taken advantage of what exactly? No money to spend until next year? Or you referring to the future or past tense? You won't him gone because he hasn't taken advantage of a situation that has happened yet? Very confusing to say the least but in essence you've shown your true colors.
It's funny because the previous sentence you stated (reasonably I might add),
"The potential to draft an impact (top 5) player and enough cap room to sign multiple free agents must not be squandered."
In other words, the following sentence you have ALREADY written off McKenzie BEFORE he has had the opportunity to draft and use FA money. Priceless.
It is fitting because you have been consistently cherry picking a few draft choices and continually pointing to Hayden and Watson as busts.
Newsflash Einstein: You don't know if Hayden or Watson will become building blocks because you have no clue. Why? Because the book isn't written on either Hayden or Watson like most rookies.
Furthermore, Hayden had no time in camp or preseason, was overcoming a life threatening injury, and only got his feet wet.
Watson was picked knowing full well that he is a project with limited football experience BUT was picked with a long term view because McKenzie sees an unpolished gem that needs reps. and time to develop.
To prematurely discount Watson's physical tools and upside or to neglect to recognize that he is in the development stage is just plain stupid.
If you really believe,
"The Raiders have amazing opportunity next year to change the course of the franchise.",
why can't you wait a few months to see how it all plays out? Oh that's right, because elite free agents could be acquired without money and draft picks need to be instant impact players or forget about them.
”Hayden and Watson both have looked mediocre to crap not like starters by any means. Those were Reggie's first two picks. NY you are the one being insincere by refusing to acknowledge those picks look like crap picks as of Dec 9 2013.“
Really?
Watson was injured most of the year. His brief stint at LT was surprisingly good. He struggled a bit in his second chance on the other side of the line but far from “crap” or bust classification.
And DJ Hayden had played well considering his injury circumstances, and well enough to avoid the criticisms and benching his colleague, Dee Milliner (the first CB taken in the 2013 draft), has endured in NY.
CJ is right, you are cherry picking draft picks in hindsight and pointing to the those as McKenzie’s failures before enough time has lapsed for anyone with football acumen to make such judgments. That’s what makes your posts insincere, or just uninformed.
Raiders didn’t even have a 2nd round pick last year. McKenzie did well to acquire the pick. The jury is out on his draft choices... and there’s no other reasonable way to view it.
Okay guys it would be great if you guys could cherry pick a couple of brilliant moves that Reggie has made. Please show me a player he has acquired that you can say is a real game changer not some supposed potential.
There were guys in the first round he could have taken who are already proven game changers and solid starters.
Instead Reggie took guys who are projects as you say about Watson or were coming off terrible injuries. To me that was way too risky a move given the Raiders lack of talent. Sort of like the DHB draft pick.
Reggie also contrary to popular propaganda could have done better in FA. Do not use the salary cap issue. Spreading out Seymour into year 2 was Reggie not Al. Take Seymour's cap hit, the Flynn mistake and that is plenty of money to sign a couple of difference makers such as Kruger, Sean Smith, Avril, Martellus Bennett
I think this is factual evidence of a less than stellar job. Call it cherry picking if you want but mistakes are mistake. Show me where Reggie has made a brilliant player move please
'game changers' and 'solid starters' are 2 very different things. Based on the last few weeks, I would certaintly put WR Holmes in the category of a solid starter. What about Sio Moore? And Streater? And Roach? And Jenkins? etc.
CJ
I'm not going to say Reggie and DA need to go, but I do think their seats are warming up. I would say they've done okay, but it's hard to say they've done great. Year three starts in four weeks, and they need to do great from here on out.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wondering about the most recent draft. In the first round, we picked a guy coming off a devastating injury, and in the second round, we picked a guy who'd only been playing football for a few years. Neither made a significant impact this year, and now both are injured.
Let's be honest, if Al Davis had made those picks, we'd be second guessing him right now.
Now they need to get a QB, and they need to get it right.
Between "everything's great" and "fire them now," there's legitimate room for (1) questioning when your team is 4-9 and regressing over the previous three games; (2) advocating for patience, giving Reggie and DA a break for the bad hand they were dealt, and allowing things to play out longer.
It will be interesting to see where Mark Davis lands on this debate, and I think the next three games will be instrumental in his final evaluation.
I think part of the regression comes from ridding awful players that had talent. Richard Seymour was a talented DT; but is not longer in the league because his attitude rotted like Haynesworth.
Kelly has played well this season for the Patriots (and much less $$), but again, wasn't doing much for the Raiders.
Anyone know where Stanford Routt is? What about Des Bryant (who again had another surgery for his ticker)?
The Raiders rid themselves of guys who knew the system and replaced them with average players who were learning the system. It usually takes a year or so for players to learn a new system. We replaced all of our defensive starters, except 3, and one (Burris) was injured and essentially cut. Houston has performed well, and Branch performed well until he got hurt, and now he's back.
Offensively, we replaced the OC. Still not sure if it was the best hire; but our offense has improved this year over last year's offense. But we've regressed in this category since Reggie and DA have taken over. Hue must have been a miracle worker. Notice all the crap that Mark Davis/Hue Jackson took for the Carson trade, but nobody complained about the performances Carson had brought, or what he's doing in Arizona now. In my book, we traded him for a less value of his worth. It should have been an incentive trade (i.e.-if Arizona ends with winning record and Carson has a big hand in it, Raiders get 2nd rounder).
Regression is there. Is it the talent level? Is it the coaching? I say a little of both. We have a roster of mostly average players, some below, some above. We also have coaches who are not aggressive in their play-calling, and sometime outright vanilla (on both sides of the ball). No adjustments are being made, and I don't see Pryor or McGloin with photos from the last series, and a coach with him going over the photos and exploiting weaknesses (you always see Manning, Brady, Kapernick, Flacco, and even Romo doing this).
I want to see coaches helping the young talent we have improve. I want to see our team get hungry to finish games, be aggressive, and go non-stop. I want the coaches, management, and players to be tired of complacency (i.e.-I hear a lot of "we don't have the talent, and are waiting for the season to end when we have $$ to get talent we need"). You brought in the talent we have, light a fire under your ass and their ass! A good coach (and even a good player) makes average players play beyond themselves. Why? Because they are always giving them something to build on. We haven't seen this since Gruden (and Flores before him).
No, the Raiders are not oozing with talent; but the coaches are not giving the talent we have something to build on. This is why I'm losing faith in DA, Tarver, and Olsen. I am an advocate for giving DA 3 years, but he and his staff are not really showing me anything that says they will last past next season. A lot is going to have to change for me to change my feelings (see above statements on coaching). I wonder if Gannon, Tim Brown, and Rod Woodson would be willing to start a coaching career?
Great points, Raider Nate.
Here's what I'm wondering: The story of the first half of the season was how competitive we were. Now the story is becoming how bad our roster is, and how it can't be expected to compete. It doesn't add up.
The defense is most puzzling. They looked strong and improving and now they've gone soft and can't seem to tackle. So what gives?
"No adjustments are being made, and I don't see Pryor or McGloin with photos from the last series, and a coach with him going over the photos and exploiting weaknesses...."
TV coverage showed McCloin and coaches on the sideline after one series against the Jets and they were absolutely looking at pictures. Also, McGloin said in his post game PC that it was the adjustments made at halftime that allowed the Raiders to have the success they had on offense, which included scoring on their first few possessions after the half.
I agree that often times playcalling is vanilla but this is still a work in progress. One of this regime's glaring failures is that we lost a year of development on offense by hiring Greg Knapp. That's history so no use crying about it now.
When Pryor came in to replace McGloin, Rich Gannon slammed Dennis Allen (and/or Greg Olsen) for that move and said he would have had a tirade on the sideline, ala his days with Gruden.
What he failed to consider is that these guys are not Rich Gannon. The Raiders are evaluating players and making decisions now that will impact this team next year. They have to know the margin for error is paper thin right now. We ALL get it.
Furthermore, I can certainly understand some trepidation over the selection of Hayden due to his injury and Watson due to his lack of experience, but to argue that these and other draft picks made in 2013 are not game changers right now so they must be scouting failures is ridiculous. That prognosis is steeped in speculation and conjecture.
Equally ridiculous is asking to folks to “cherry pick” the players that were drafted and demonstrate their successes. Do I actually have to explain these guys haven’t had any time to develop and the suggestion they prove themselves 3/4 into their first season or be labeled failures of an entire regime.... blah blah blah. Does anyone else see how ridiculous that is?
I am willing to discuss, and perhaps push back slightly on many points when it comes to mistakes made, etc., but to label 2013 draft picks as busts and conclude what can’t be reasonably concluded goes beyond my ability.
NY tell me a game changing player Reggie has added to the roster.
Not avg starters like Streater (3tds), Roach or Jenkins. But game changers because that is what wins games in the NFL stars making big plays. The good teams are packed with stars
Instead of always criticizing me for my views give me some facts, give me some names give me some tangible examples. Not just the macro bs about salary cap and blue collar good attitude and putting a foundation in place.
Point to one tangible item that says look at this great move. Seriously i am really not trying to get your goat but I have racked my brain and can not see the progress. I thought perhaps they were better than last year but the jets game says no so does 1 win on the road
Because we all know we can not point to the w-l record, no one from the drafts have made an impact, free agents Flynn, Briesel, Roach, Jenkins, Porter I feel that is terrible to average.Coaches nuff siad
"NY tell me a game changing player Reggie has added to the roster."
You are like a child with this. The explanation has been presented 50 different ways but you keep coming back with the same question.
I can give you a bunch!
DJ Hayden, Menelik Watson, Sio Moore, Latavius Murray, Mychal Rivera, Stacy McGee, Brice Butler and, who knows, maybe even Tyler Wilson.
The entire 2013 draft class...
Just as much as I don't know if any of these guys will meet your so-called game changer moniker, you don’t know that they won't.
And “good” teams have something the Raiders don’t; time and money. They have continuity in management, coaching, player personnel, and they have resources that McKenzie hasn’t had.
Why can't you understand that?
You can stomp your feet, pound your fists and pout all you want, you can't change these facts.
Exactly NYR.
These continual "gotcha" lame-ass strawman arguments are getting old and annoying.
Everyone that knows the deck McKenzie was dealt realizes that "star players" weren't walking in the door with no coin in the bank.
If you acquire 1 "game changing" rookie in 1 class you are lucky.
BBB: Name a team in the NFL that acquired more than 1 "game changing" rookie this year?
If a team drafts 1 game changer + 2 additional good starters it is considered a major haul by most pundits definition.
For all we know, when we look back at 2013 in a year or 2, we might have a nice haul.
McKenzie's hand was forced. He had to find bargain basement, 3rd tier FAs, undrafted rookies, and the scrap heaps off the waiver wire to fill the 53 man roster.
Around and around this pointless argument goes. Anyone who thinks the transitional rebuild was going to be near completion within 2 years is out of touch with reality.
The question comes back to whether or not you believe McKenzie has the ability to add significant talent in 2014 to bolster the roster with the resources to do so.
I'm more than willing to wait to find out. 2003 to 2011 we were spinning our wheel of bad decisions and ineptitude. We clean house and start over with a new regime who had a MAJOR overhaul to take on.
Year 3 might not be a magical, end all year but I'm willing to see what the current leadership group can accomplish.
Oh well, looks like I'm a fan of the Oakland "Waiters", not Raiders.
Why?, Because as a fan, I am told to be patient, and just wait.
Wait for what? Well, 2016, 2019, 2026. Who the hell knows.
Nevermind, that the Chefs won 2 games last year, and are now on way to playoffs.
It doesn't matter that the Donks, suffered with Josh McDaniel, lost a better QB,(Cutler), than the Raiders have had in over a decade, and bounced right back.
Who cares if the down & out Eagles, found a HC,(who actually knows something about football), and a QB,(Foles),in one years time.
Other quick turn arounds. Harbough, 9ers. Lucky Indy. Carrol, S-hawks. Payton, Saints.
See what I'm driving at ? Hire the right people, and it can turn around quickly.
But, hey, with Reg, and Allen, what's the big rush ?
If you're an Oakland Waiters fan, there's always tomorrow.
"JUST WAIT BABY" !!!!!!!!!
CJ, NY you two guys are pathetic. You just spew the same old tired cliches and excuses.
I asked you to name just one game changing player and you refuse to do so. Why? Because there is none. LMAO
I understand and even agree with some of the more tangible criticisms, but wishing for yet another two year coaching (and management) turnover is beyond my comprehension.
And we seem to be back to the whole “splash” mentality, where folks think we should be stacking our team with “game changers” like Richard Seymour, DeAngelo Hall and Javon Walker, even if it comes at the expense of trading away years of top draft picks.
No thanks!
There's the pot calling the kettle black.
Raiders have lots of game changers. Charles Woodson diving over players to make a TD saving tackle (he receive D player of the week), or Porter (maybe Jenkins, I can't remember) making a game-saving INT in the end zone to secure a victory, or Matt McGloin driving the offense to a go ahead score week after week, or the entire offensive line for patchwork performances all year long, or Jennings whose long TD run was game-changing, or Holmes who has shown he can catch anything within his long reach (and who McGloin says he's 50/50 on what he calls "opportunity balls")... in my book that beats another year of watching Randy Moss aligator-arm passes sent his direction.
You obviuosly don't know what you are looking at when you watch the Raiders; you just watch the W-L column and make rash, uninformed blanket statements about acquiring talent or bashing draft picks. It's getting old.
I would like to add, it's not as simple as hiring established management and experienced coaching then adding a few so-called "game changers" to your roster.
Look at Houston, Washington, Altanta and other teams this year. These teams are stacked, and each boasts having a franchise QB. There's no question JJ Watt is one of the most intense players in the NFL. How many games did he win for his team this year?
Plenty of examples which point out flaws in the game-changer theory around the NFL and in Raiders history.
Great moves by McKenzie:
Getting rid of
Seymour
McClain
Huff
Cooper
Boss
Bryant
Routt
Lechler (love the punts, hate the paycheck)
Johnson
Wimbley (again with the paycheck)
Houshmandzadeh
Schilens
Henderson
Heyward-Bey
Kelly
That's a pretty nasty list of players you can't build on.
That list of players were on a team that missed the playoffs by one game. Can't say that about this team that Freckles has put together.
That's kinda how I feel sometimes, Raider00.
Sometimes I feel like "difficult" is labeled as "impossible" in Raiderland.
Yes, it's difficult to hit home runs in the draft, acquire impact free agents, swing awesome trades (the Niners got Boldin for a sixth rounder and are paying $6 million, which I think is about identical to our Flynn deal), find excellent coaches, and turn things around quickly.
It's very difficult. But it can be done, and it has been done.
It's what we should expect out of our organization, and what it should expect out of itself. I've been very consistent about that, whether Al Davis or Reggie McKenzie are running the show.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that there's nothing wrong with having takes that rise and fall with the team's performance during a season.
During Al Davis's tenure, a lot of folks kept trying to persuade me to paint a happy face on a Sunday turd. I'm seeing the same thing now, but from the opposite side of the pew.
Very early this season, Texans fans were flying high, Panthers fans were pissed, and Bucs and Jags fans were despondent. Now the Texans fans are pissed, the Panthers fans are pleased, and the Jags and Bucs fans are in a happier place. That's football. That's fandom. If you perform, you'll hear applause. If you stink, you'll hear boos. Welcome to the big show.
If you lay three turds in a row, moods are going to darken, and questions are going to be raised. It doesn't mean "fire them all," but it does mean that expectations are there.
When Charles Woodson calls something "inexcusable" and "embarrassing," guess what, that's what it is.
I was so pissed when Freckles passed on that trade for Boldin, instead he trades for a dud of a quarterback and used up valuable cap space too.
The free agents he signed are average at best and that isn't good enough.
The quarterback position is a mess and I cannot believe all we got was a 6th round pick for Palmer, another god awful trade.
Freckles will be used as a punching bag by all the other gm's in the nfl, he is clueless.
Anon, I'm wondering if you would join us by creating some sort of nickname handle, it's a grand tradition at Raider Take!
Your view of Reggie is much dimmer than mine. I think he was dealt a bad hand and has done okay. But there have been some bumps in the road, and year three will be big for him. It's showtime.
The pew analogy is a bit of a reach; the difference being that I'm not here pretending I haven't seen the same issues you have... but it is funny how the pendulum of sanity has swung.
What I've mostly done is defend players drafted only a few months ago and current management from a public lynching before they've had a fair and reasonable period to prove their worth.
As I stated before, if the current failures continue into next year, let the lynching commence!
I think Freckles is in over his head, it's to much for him. Raiders best player and he can only get a 6th rounder for him? Matt Flynn, what a joke and that is the guy Freckles knew something about. I can only see this team going further down the toilet, Hue had this team so close and Loyd Christmas had to screw it all up, merry Christmas I'm sure. I miss the days of Raider football, real Raider football. Take what we want, overtake them with power football. Dennis Allen coaches like he is playing tennis, he is the weakest head coach in the nfl bar none. Bring Hue and Gruden back, it's the only way to get back to Al Davis football.
Q: Do you think you’ve seen enough progress from this team to stay the course with your GM and coach?
A: “There (are) three games to go, and they’re important games. I don’t really want to say anything more than that until after the season. But what I can tell you is we just went through the two-year deconstruction of the Raiders. We had to do it. It wasn’t fun, but it was something we had to do. And it’s basically complete. That is done.
“And the reconstruction is going to begin right after this season is over. That’s what we’ve got to do—we’ve got to build this team back up. And we’re in a good position—with all the dead money, the cap stuff, the upside down contracts… they’re all gone.
“We’re in a strong position now with all that, because of how we’ve planned and gone through this deconstruction. And now we can go forward.”
“It’s an exciting time for us. It’s also been a tough time for the fans, it’s been a tough time for me, it’s been a tough time for everybody. But what do they say about patience? If you’re committed to something, you have to be patient with it.
“That’s the thing about this season—at times we’ve shown that there’s something there, and at times we’ve shown that maybe there’s not. There’s progress, if you look at it that way, because it makes the disappointment that much harder. When you’ve made some progress, patience is a harder thing to have.”
Q: You mention Reggie doing these things. Safe to say he retains your full confidence into the future?
A: “I’m very happy with the job he’s done so far. But I’m not even thinking about those things right now—we’ve got games to play and the evaluation continues on everything. These are division games; these are important games; at some point in time, these are the games we have to win. We’ve got to do this right. This is when it gets real.”
NY, not aiming at you or anyone in particular with those words, just debating on behalf of my sentiment.
"This is when it gets real."
Exactly, like I've been saying, it's showtime.
Loyd Christmas is telling us that sweet pea Allen is gone if he doesnt win another game. I hope the Raiders loose the rest of their games, that will guarantee that little weasel will be gone.
If he wants to loose the games he needs to start Mccloin, if he starts Pryor, they will win a couple of games. Just loose so Loyd Christmas will fire sweet pea, that would make my Christmas.
Raider Take, you are the MAN!!!! You predicted it buddy! Wish you were the owner instead of Loyd Christmas. When it gets real, I want Raider Take on my team, Raider Take ROCKS BABY!!!!
Didn't that list of players also lay down like dogs to end that year? They didn't seem like they were on their way anywhere at the time.
This team has certainly been pulled apart. I'm pretty happy with the deconstruction, because I'm not seeing a lot of our lost players tearing up the league elsewhere. I'm hoping we see DA/RM put something together next year. At this point I don't see how you can give them any grade but "incomplete".
PS
Raidertake. Yes, you hit the nail. With the Raiders, it's impossible.
Even as other teams all around the league, are making it happen.
Maybe Raiders should put image of old time singer, Perry Como on helmet.
Como sang the song, "It's Impossible".
Perfect for the Raiders.
How can you say 2 years is incomplete? KC and even Jacksonville is turning it around faster than this slow motion group Loyd has hired. This roster is better than the roster Hue had when he took them to 8-8 and 1 game from the playoffs. So why are they only winning 4 games a year? Coaching sucks, Freckles is in over his head and it's not going to get any better with Loyd Christmas running the show. Everyone knows it rest of the league is laughing at us I am sick of it, we need winners.
"How can you say 2 years is incomplete? KC and even Jacksonville is turning it around faster than this slow motion group Loyd has hired."
Let's break this down and give it some real world context.
KC has been using time (far beyond 2 years), top draft choices since 2005, and well managed salary cap dollars to get to this point in time of a remarkable, exceptional turnaround.
While the Raiders were whiffing on the majority of 1st round picks, KC had more hits than misses with Derrick Johnson, Tamba Hall, Dwayne Bowe, Tyson Jackson, Eric Berry, Dontari Poe, Eric Fisher, etc.
Jacksonville? Really, you mean the team we beat 19-9 earlier this year who is also 4-9?
You can do much better. Deconstruct to reconstruct ... that was the hand dealt to McKenzie.
There have been so many turn arounds after a year or 2 nfl history is loaded with those stories. Not in Raider country we have to wait 20 years before we can sniff the playoffs. Why is it the Raiders can never find a good quarterback? Why is the offensive line always lousy and why can we never stop the run? It's the same stuff as before only worse we used to win 8 games in a year. Dennis Allen is out coached every game and Freckles picked him as his guy. Dennis Allen will never win more than 4 games in a year he needs to be fired.
“I want to play again,” Woodson said in an interview with John Lund and Greg Papa. “I think this is the only place that I would play. I do plan on coming back and playing for the Raiders. If that didn’t happen, then I think I would have to decide if I want to go somewhere else for another year. If I’m wanted here, I’m coming back.”
Woodson was moved by the outpouring of fan support when he came back to the East Bay last offseason as a free agent. He said it was a factor in his decision to return to the team that drafted him No. 4 overall in 1998.
“I’ve just been enjoying my time back here,” Woodson said. "Regardless of what our record is right now, it’s been great to put on the silver and black and play at the Coliseum. The fans and the love they’ve shown has been great. All I want to do is win and win for the fans.”
Woodson is frustrated with the team’s recent struggles. He isn’t happy with the Raiders 4-9 record or Sunday’s defensive performance where he believes the team “peed down our leg,” but he has hope for the future of the franchise.
“I believe this organization is headed in the right direction,” Woodson said. “I’m happy and proud to be a part of that transition, hopefully going forward as well.”
Yep, no doubt turnarounds happen.
I believe the turnaround for the Raiders happens in 2014. Tired of pointing out the shitty hand both DA and McKenzie were dealt.
I will allow 2014, based on wins and losses alone, to be the ultimate barometer of how I feel about the Raiders progress, direction and leadership.
Until then, I'm not going to sweat it.
So yes, RT, it is real. No more excuses, context, or explanations ... just long due results on the field which is what most fans care about.
I agree with RT. It's SHOWTIME.
We are told that the great, amazing turn around is under way.
Even though the Jets game is evidence to the contrary.
But let's forget all that. Afterall, football history is made on the field, not on blogs.
So lets put all the cards on the table.
3 games left. 3 tough division games. 2 at home, one at SD.
So it's showtime, which means time to show up.
Let's see what Reg, and DA's team is made of.
Let's see some good football. Maybe even a win or two, would be nice.
Some positive sign we can point to, and say, hey, maybe things aren't so bad.
Maybe this team really is headed in the right direction.
But if we see a December fade...
It's SHOWTIME,...time to show up.
The statements made by Woodson posted above, if accurate, demonstrate that his comments after the Jets game were taken out of context. Of course he was mad about how the team played in that game. He pointed mostly to his own whiff on defending a screen pass.
If Woodson tells it like it is, as many here would agree, then his last statement above says all you need to know, and trumps weeks of whining by folks that would like to see RM and DA fired.
Woodson is just paying lip service what else would he say? Of course he will say the right things to the reporters. Bet he stays if DA leaves. Marc Davis is running out of patience and he even said it last year during that awful losing streak. Freckles hasn't signed one impact player and DA has made the team regress. Freckles better hire a good HC or he'll be on the street with Allen soon enough.
To Raider 00;
Raider Take is so cool, it's showtime and it's like Raider Take is inside the Raider lockerroom with his amazing Takes!!! He is the best blogger on the Net bar none and the way he called what is happening in OakTown is just outstanding. Congratulations to you Raider Take and thanks for keeping us on the cutting edge of Raidernews!
Woodson paying lip service? Since when?
"Freckles better hire a good HC or he'll be on the street with Allen soon enough."
Yeah, anon, and you're in a position to make that call.
ny;
Marc Davis is in the position to make the call and he already said his patience is wearing out last year. Freckles better be looking over his shoulder because sweet pea isn't going to make it past this year. In 2 years, Freckles hired a looser HC, wasted picks and money on Matt Flynn. Hires take a Knapp, pays Richard Seymore millions for nothing and trades Palmer for a bag of footballs. Excuse me for seeing Freckles making mistakes left and right and sweet pea messing up gameday decisions left and right. If you think that is going in the right direction I have a bridge to sell you.
I can't wait for the next Raider Take with KC Chefs up next. Take, we know you have the inside scoop, what is going to happen on Sunday? Can the Raiders win?
“I believe this organization is headed in the right direction,” Woodson said. “I’m happy and proud to be a part of that transition, hopefully going forward as well.”
I trust that CWood has a good read and pulse of the team and management.
The results have been poor during this transition but there hasn't been any negativity, dissension, or me-first attitudes expressed by any of the players.
New take is up.
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