THE GRUDEN SHOW Strikes Again
THE GRUDEN SHOW has shipped The Ghost to Dallas for a first round draft pick.
No, I'm not talking about Dave Casper, I'm talking about Amari Cooper, who you could have sworn was on the Raiders, yet who was increasingly invisible even when he was on the field. A first rounder? Not a bad haul, really. If I'm Derek Carr, I'm keeping my head on a swivel at this point.
After the Mack trade but before the season even started, I coined the term THE GRUDEN SHOW. Here's what I wrote: "What you are seeing is the opening act of what will be The Gruden Show for years to come."
I was not wrong.
What we are seeing is a thorough and intentional dismantling of Reggie McKenzie's Raiders and a roster that notched a 12-4 record just two seasons ago. I think we can finally dispense with the charade that Gruden and McKenzie are in lockstep.
Simply put, Gruden is taking a jackhammer to the foundations of the team and plans to rebuild it from the ground up, starting with a ridiculous amount of high draft picks that he'd better get right.
I'm afraid, however, that this wasn't part of a master plan. It has the feeling of improvisation. I don't think Gruden envisioned all of this at training camp. It came in fits and starts, with the Martavis Bryant fiasco, the backup QB circus and ultimately the Mack holdout.
Gruden shipped Mack out and then started pulling on threads. Once the season got off to a terrible start, he hasn't stopped pulling, and now Cooper is the latest casualty.
If you're being generous, you might call it brilliant (at least from a PR standpoint). With these moves, Gruden washes his hands of Reggie's roster, subliminally shifting the blame in the process.
Off to a terrible start? "Well, it's the players, not the coaching. Who could win with these guys? Gotta start over. Good thing I'm here to make things right. Just wait until I execute all of these picks and rebuild the team in my image. Of course, you won't be able to really judge my plan until around three or four years (ie: $30 or $40 million) from now. Sayonara, Oakland. The greatness of the Raiders is in its future (ie: Las Vegas, circa 2021)!"
So there you have it. THE GRUDEN SHOW. Terrible on the field in 2018 and in the foreseeable future, with no one left to blame. And who knows, it just might even work in the long run.
No, I'm not talking about Dave Casper, I'm talking about Amari Cooper, who you could have sworn was on the Raiders, yet who was increasingly invisible even when he was on the field. A first rounder? Not a bad haul, really. If I'm Derek Carr, I'm keeping my head on a swivel at this point.
After the Mack trade but before the season even started, I coined the term THE GRUDEN SHOW. Here's what I wrote: "What you are seeing is the opening act of what will be The Gruden Show for years to come."
I was not wrong.
What we are seeing is a thorough and intentional dismantling of Reggie McKenzie's Raiders and a roster that notched a 12-4 record just two seasons ago. I think we can finally dispense with the charade that Gruden and McKenzie are in lockstep.
Simply put, Gruden is taking a jackhammer to the foundations of the team and plans to rebuild it from the ground up, starting with a ridiculous amount of high draft picks that he'd better get right.
I'm afraid, however, that this wasn't part of a master plan. It has the feeling of improvisation. I don't think Gruden envisioned all of this at training camp. It came in fits and starts, with the Martavis Bryant fiasco, the backup QB circus and ultimately the Mack holdout.
Gruden shipped Mack out and then started pulling on threads. Once the season got off to a terrible start, he hasn't stopped pulling, and now Cooper is the latest casualty.
If you're being generous, you might call it brilliant (at least from a PR standpoint). With these moves, Gruden washes his hands of Reggie's roster, subliminally shifting the blame in the process.
Off to a terrible start? "Well, it's the players, not the coaching. Who could win with these guys? Gotta start over. Good thing I'm here to make things right. Just wait until I execute all of these picks and rebuild the team in my image. Of course, you won't be able to really judge my plan until around three or four years (ie: $30 or $40 million) from now. Sayonara, Oakland. The greatness of the Raiders is in its future (ie: Las Vegas, circa 2021)!"
So there you have it. THE GRUDEN SHOW. Terrible on the field in 2018 and in the foreseeable future, with no one left to blame. And who knows, it just might even work in the long run.
posted by Raider Take at 1:06 PM
55 Comments:
Take, I share your fear. It could be the Raiders do not have anyone in the organization that can find the talent.
When all was said and done, Reggie's job as GM was pretty underwhelming to say the least. Even before Gruden part II arrived, Reggie had already cut loose many of his own draft picks. Some even 2nd and 3rd rounders.
Compare to the Chefs. Everyone who touches the ball on any play is a threat. But who are the playmakers for the Raiders ? Who can Carr throw or handoff to that can break a big play ? There just isn't much there.
I believe Gruden can still coach up good football players. The question is, can Gruden find the players ? I guess it's a wait and see game at this point.
Ultimately, it all falls to the owner, Mark Davis. He has put this structure in place. It will rise or fall with him at the helm.
....................I KNOW WHAT I DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........................
Ugh! So far The Gruden Show has been a total train wreck.
Here's an interesting fact about the Seahawks game: Raiders had 142 yards passing, but 140 of those yards came after the catch.
Is that even possible?
Derek Carr threw for two yards in the air the whole game, and his receivers did the rest? I hope that's a net figure, less sack yardage. Either way, it's pathetic.
It tells you all you need to know about Gruden's west coast offense. It sucks!
Maybe Gruden has spent so much time devising his master plan that he forgot to coach the 2018 team? Who is calling plays? Olsen?
Honestly, I'm okay with Raiders trading Cooper, and a first round pick is a pretty good haul for a guy who regularly drops the ball and disappears for weeks at a time. Hell, I'm probably okay with the Raiders trading Carr now that everyone else is going or gone.
But the simple fact that Gruden couldn't field a competitive team in 2018 has me a little concerned. I hope he figures something out. Anything!
You may just get your wish NY. Reports are already swirling that Carr is next, and Jacksonville may be his destination.
Look, I understand rebuilding, but you need a group of young-talented players to rebuild around. That is what McKenzie set us up for with Carr-Cooper-Mack, and we saw a glimpse of their potential 2 years ago with good coaching. I was hoping for better things with Gruden, but expressed concern that Gruden's ego may get in the way of that, and so far it has.
Regardless of how you feel about the 2 trades, the most glaring thing to me that shows this is going to haunt us for probably another decade is that a good coach can coach to the strengths of his roster that he inherited, while building a system he ultimately wants. Not Gruden. Gruden has to have it his way or the highway. The problem with this is he won't get the savvy vets he expects with that attitude. The Raiders have become a team that nobody wants to be a part of again. C-Wood said on twitter that we fans are going to have to be patient. I replied, "15 years is not patient enough? Asking for a friend" Raiders/Gruden just gave their fan base the biggest middle finger with the Mack trade, and now they've made it a double bird. Why? Gruden. He is a celebrity, and his celebrity ego is getting in the way of him coaching this team. I'm not happy. This is the most hopeless I've felt about this team, and I'm seriously thinking about abandoning ship while I still have some dignity. Am I crazy for feeling this way? Someone talk me off the plank....
obviously Gruden doesn't like what JDR was putting in place. I wouldn't put all the blame on Reggie, he was working with his HC's in making those picks. This last draft looks pretty impressive so far, 3 starters on the D-line and a good LT for yrs to come (he isn't healthy right now). They also picked up the tailback of the future, Warren III. I would think that Carr is next and maybe another 1st in the next draft, the Raiders will have close to 20 draft picks and over 70 mill in cap space to start the build of Gruden's team. Mack didn't want to be in Oakland and that started the rebuild mentality right there. Gruden is now seeing Carr doesn't have the nutsack to play in the NFL. Imagine spending all that money on Mack and Carr and it would of been a shitshow. Starting to see it is the right move to burn it down again. As we saw on that Monday night game last year in Wash., the locker room has problems and so does the talent level. Like I wrote before, we as Raider fans better hope Gruden can get it right or this could go on for as long as he is HC.
Marshawn Lynch on IR, earliest he can come back is Christmas Eve.
I don't think it will work in the long run. Look at the what happened in Tampa after the Superbowl. A lot of mediocre drafts, even after the two years of no first or second rounder.
Anyway, I think this is going to be a trainwreck in the long run. A dumpster fire in the short. And playing in a brand new shiny ballpark won't change that.
Raidernate, you just parroted what was said on NFL network, original.
There is more to being a team than good players. Those players have to want to play for their teams and play together as units with good chemistry. That is not present in Oakland. You got Coop, who plays with a take it or leave it attitude. You got Irvin who says he doesn't care about losing, he also walked off the practice field with Mack when KNJ was fired. You have an offensive line that may have issues with their QB as we witnessed that Monday night. Carr said before this year that the year before many were not interested in details of the game. if you really can see, you can see a team disjointed even before Gruden was there. Gruden cannot create the chemistry or the habits of players, Oakland, once again, has a locker room with a cancer. Has to be removed, again. Gruden probably knew it before he even stepped off the plane to take the job. They aren't/weren't that good, they got lucky for a year and then the real JDR showed up and the team fell apart on a Monday night over an anthem.
Gm Reggie Mckenzie putting out statements saying he is still in charge. He made the Cooper trade.
Good grief. 3 first round draft picks, but if Reggie is making picks, might as well flush them down toilet right now.
Imagine if you're Reggie McKenzie. You've spent six+ years getting the Raiders out of cap hell and drafting players, ostensibly so you could draft good players AND afford them (ie: what good teams do). In 2016, your cast goes 12-4.
Then Gruden comes in, and sets your work on fire. Gone is the best pick you ever made. Your one QB "get" in the draft is apparently regressing under Gruden. Now gone is another first rounder who was at least serviceable. Other Reggie picks have been shipped out, and now Conley and / or Joseph may be on the chopping block.
I'm not saying Reggie did a great job. I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes.
It's a complete repudiation of his work, signifying a clash at the executive ranks of the Raiders. I'll be very surprised if Reggie sticks around. THE GRUDEN SHOW rules the roost.
Take, you kind of skipped over 2017. 2016 was great, but the regression started under JDR. Carr & Cooper both started their backwards slide in 2017. That is why Gruden is here.
You sort of make it sound like Gruden is tearing down some epic winning team that Reggie has built. Add up the wins, or winning seasons since Reggie became GM. It's a really low number.
NYR..Short passes are thrown by every team now days. Chefs could throw 2 yard pass to Hunt or Hill, and they might score a TD. Who on Raiders can do that?
00, I think you misread me, maybe I could have been more clear.
I was just looking at all of this from RM's perspective, as he's still being trotted out as if he's making these decisions.
The truth is, this relationship untenable, and if it was going to play out like this, they should have just moved on from RM and called Gruden the GM at the outset.
Like I said, it's a complete repudiation of RM's work, which as you say may be justified. Regardless, there's no way he's co-engineering all of this.
Therefore, it's yet another sign of organizational chaos. You'd think after investing $100 million in a coach there would be a firm organization chart / vision and clear plan right from the outset.
Instead, it feels like improv. Amazing.
00-
That stat is alarming. 140 of 142 passing yards after the catch.
Meanwhile, Gruden has Carr playing under center. He's not a drop back passer. Never was! Gruden is under-utilizing Carr's talents.
Carr is a better QB than Gruden is allowing him to be. We should all be concerned about that.
Nate, and to a lesser extent Take, its one thing to be down about the fact the team is sucking this year.
Its another thing to pretend the Raiders were a playoff team prior to Gruden "dismantling" it. NY has that point of view well covered btw.
However it a whole other level of anti-Gruden bias to criticize this trade as anything but a great move.
In his last 28 games, Cooper has 101 catches for 1,326 yards — an average of 47 yards per game. He has less than 30 yards in an astounding 14 of those games. Getting a first rounder for him is highway robbery. Let'snot forget the guy was going tomake 14mm next year if Siegel (same agent as Mack) let him play on his 5th year otpion.
I repeat for the millionth time, it sucks cheering for an awful team who I foolishly thought might be somewhat competitive this year during what I hoped was a transition phase.
However, the Raiders had one winning season in 16, not hard to fault a man from taking a blow torch to the team and ending up with 5 number one picks in the next two years.
Regards
Aaron
Aaron, great to hear from you.
I'm not criticizing this trade specifically, just trying to observe it in context of a much larger sea change that is currently overwhelming the organization.
I'm willing to admit that Gruden's rebuild may ultimately better in the long run. That said, I'm wondering to what extent ego and the blame-game might be playing a role in the reshaping of the Raiders.
Have you ever seen anything like this? Such a sudden and thorough dismantling of a team with the guy who built the team being trotted out to act like it's his idea?
RT,
Thanks for answering my comment. I agree that it seems like there is no plan and this is being done on the fly. That is scary. I do feel the Raiders need an overhaul and getting a 1st for Cooper is a great result.
Aaron
Within an hour or so of each other this afternoon, RM said the Raiders' trading floor is still open in advance of the deadline, and Gruden said the trading floor is closed.
This house is not in order.
In my humble defense...
With a foundation of Carr, Mack, Irving moving back to DE, Conley healthy and Melvin signed to take the other side, a solid O-line (assuming Penn at LT), the draft trio of Hall, Key and Hurst, signing Jordy Nelson to play opposite Cooper, and an infusion of what looked like savvy vets to fill in any gaps, (and let's not forget the Raiders third easiest strength of schedule in the NFL) I foolishly thought swapping out Downing for Gruden to coach the offense and Ken Norton Jr/Del Rio for Guenther to coach the defense would result in a competitive and, yes, playoff caliber team.
Wow! Was I mistaken!
In light of the current situation, I'm on board with trading Cooper for a first round pick. Surprisingly, that's a pretty good deal for the Raiders, who more often get the worst end of these trades... assuming they don't squander the pick.
So with the fastest dismantling of a team in NFL history, and a pirate's ransom of draft picks to go with it, should we also expect the fastest rebuilding in NFL history?
The average NFL player career is less than the length of a rookie contract. And the Raiders have a knack for jettisoning players whose rookie contracts come for renewal (which either implies they're cheap, or they don't draft well... okay, maybe both!).
That timeline gives them about 4-5 years, including 2018 (with key rookies already on the clock), to build a championship team.
Raidernate, you just parroted what was said on NFL network, original.
Anon, I don't have NFL Network to watch, as I don't have cable/satellite. My thoughts were my own.
Again, I get rebuilding, I get not being happy with a roster you inherited; but you have to rebuild around young talent, and Gruden has traded away the young talent on this team. Rumors have it that Carr is on the chopping block, and the Giants may be chomping at the bits as you watch Eli deteriorate before our eyes the way Peyton did.
I have zero confidence in Gruden right now. I don't think this pans out for the Raiders, I don't think he can put his "celebrity ego" aside to coach this team. This season alone proves that. NY said, and I agree, that coming into the offseason with Mack, Carr, Irvin moving back to DE, healthy Conley, Melvin signed, the O-line, Marshawn, the draft of Hall, Key, Hurst, and signing Jordy Nelson and already having Jared Cook at TE; my expectations were playoffs. Then they traded Mack, and it seemed to implode any confidence the fan base and the team had. Not saying that one person is the difference in a playoff run, but what I am saying is Mack is an impact player that this team needed. Mack is the type of player you build around, and Gruden (because of his ego) pulled the plug on what Reggie offered and sent him packing to Chicago. That alone will not attract young players. What happens if the 5 first round picks we get pan out and are great, but then we have to sign them to big contracts (bigger than Mack, Coop, and Carr)? I will tell you what is going to happen, we will be in another "rebuild". I will go far to say that if this happens, it will be at the cost of championships/playoffs, and our losing season trend will continue. You can't build a team, only to rebuild every 4-5 years, but this is the direction Gruden is taking the Raiders.
To make it worse, right now, there is no veteran that will come in to play to the style of "My-way-or-the-highway" attitude that Gruden has. Nothing kills a locker room quicker than a coach who is stuck on himself. Vets want a coach who can coach to their strengths to help them win what they covet. Gruden cannot do this, it has to be his scheme or nothing. Sure, Del Rio lost this team by letting a competent OC in Musgrave go, and hiring Downing and keeping KNJ (who by the way, nearly shut out the Raiders in London). But we saw what potential this team's core players of Mack, Irvin, Cooper, and the O-line could do when they went 12-4. Now Gruden comes in and 6 games into the season has destroyed whatever talent we had on this team, and caused our players and organization to believe that they were wrong, and should have never believed in themselves. This is all on Gruden, and Gruden alone; but he can't put his "celebrity ego" aside to coach this team to greatness, and Raider Nation is the one who pays. JUST BURN, BABY!
Gruden has quickly established himself as a bit of a backstabber. It's not just statements that he makes denying trades that are about to happen, but his statements about Mack and Cooper, for example, expressed how important they were to the team moving forward... right before they got axed.
Now a false sense of security has migrated to McKenzie, who recently joked about himself being untouchable on the Raiders... leaving the door open for any player to be cut or traded.
That's pretty rich considering the way he's been neutered? If Gruden lets him stay, maybe he will replace Run Run (RIP) getting tees off the field after kickoffs.
Derek Carr just tweeted this after reports of him losing the confidence of his teammates in London:
"Derek Carr
Verified account @derekcarrqb
I’m a Raider. It’s not a “popular” thing to be a Raider right now, but I am and I love it. I love the struggle of trying to fight back for our city when not a lot of people believe in us. People can try all they want to tear us apart, but it’s not happening to the real ones. 💀"
If this isn't the sign of a great QB and Leader, then I don't know what is. He is, and should be a Raider. I think Gruden is stupid enough to trade him to the Giants straight up for Eli Manning at this point. IF Gruden trades Carr, this team is hosed. IF Gruden lets Carr go after the season, this team is done. I keep saying it, but normally a team rebuilds around the young talent they have. Gruden is letting it all burn. During Jon Gruden's 7 years in charge in Tampa, the Bucs drafted 61 players. The only ones to go to a Pro Bowl are:
Aqib Talib, 5 times
Davin Joseph, twice
Jeremy Zuttah, once
Yet, we are supposed to believe that Gruden having 5 1st rounders in the next 2 years is going to be gold. He's looking for more by having Carr, Karl Joseph, and Gaeron Conley on the trade block. He's not done, far from it; but the Raiders are. JUST BURN, BABY!
Wow, all over the place, as usual. Why is it so hard for the 3 amigo's to understand this? The team was built under a different coaches image. That image began to crumble with the different coaches last year. Last year showed what this team really was, a team with little chemistry and moving in different directions. Gruden saw this before he became HC, thus is purging of the roster and signing of temporary vets to fill out the roster. Once again, Gruden started the rebuild process as soon as he took over, he knew then. So Gruden isn't wasting anytime in ridding the roster of the dead weight and trying to rebuild through the draft. In todays cap world, you have to build through the draft. Gruden is lying to the press and why not? He doesn't want to be accussed of tanking, which is what he is really doing.
stick and move
Sign of a great leader is now a guy who beaks off on twitter? Wow, do you guys know anything about sports?
Me
Another tweet from Derek Carr:
"Derek Carr - Verified account @derekcarrqb
40m40 minutes ago
Replying to @DCarr75 @ProFootballTalk
Don’t even waste your time with this big bro. On the ground I yelled get me up get me. Then I got to the sideline and yelled again. Not one tear. Not one time. There is the Truth. People will click on it because it sounds crazy. But stop playing with me."
The video shows a distorted face, but it is ran in slow motion. People question if he is crying for his "Momma", but I can clearly read that he is saying "Get me up" consecutively and quickly. I never saw a tear, again, being played in slow motion, his face looks like he is crying, but in normal speed, no way.
Nate,
Come on man, trading Cooper for a 1st was awesome. Total steal for the Raiders. Guy did not want to be on the team, and his agent would have had him holding out next year just like Mack.
Let's try and get off the hate train for five minutes and celebrate a great trade for the Raiders.
All the best
Sandy
The reason Cooper wanted out was because he sees what's going on around him. The same reason Johnson wanted his release, and now other players probably want theirs. Lynch was probably happy to hit IR.
The Raiders have imploded in the short time Gruden has been head coach.
You can believe in a higher purpose and that all is well, but I see no clear evidence that Gruden knows what he's doing. It started out as hit or miss, and has mutated into complete self-destruction.
The sad truth is, Gruden failed at his first real HC challenge, i.e., the 2018 season, and has already written it off after six games.
I can't tell where the Raiders are getting beat up more, on the field or in their clubhouse.
At this point, stockpiling draft picks seems like the best and perhaps only move. But damn! This has been the most demoralizing season I can remember, starting with the Mack trade.
So all is not well. The 2018 season is a complete disaster and the future has no clear path, except we have a lot of draft picks.
I'm a fan of Jon Gruden, and hope the best for the Raiders, but faith is all we have, and even that's running low.
nope, Raiders imploded last year on Monday Night Football over an anthem. Carr got beat up and was never the same. JDR lost the team and the locker room went rancid. Just because Gruden comes in, doesn't mean everyone is going to kiss and make up. Then Mack held out and wouldn't show and the shit rope had started. The team needed to be wiped clean again, just the way it is. Gruden saw it early and has began the process already. Time to burn all those jersey's you bought, they are all gone now.
stick and move
If it is as "Stick & Move" says, then we may want to find a personnel guy pronto.
Because that would mean that Reggie has been an utter failure as a drafter and team builder, and Gruden's record as a drafter is miserable.
Hoarding picks is one thing. Executing them well is another.
lol, more rhetoric. Gruden was not the GM in Tampa. Gruden was not the GM in Oakland his 1st trip around. Reggie works together with his HC's, do you not listen to Reggie himself tell you this? Or do you only listen to those who are no where near Raider HQ's and are just throwing out headlines for clickbait, that is who you believe? How do you explain the last draft? Looks pretty damn good so far? Gruden and Reggie work together, just like Reggie told you in his latest press conference, do you even watch them? It's obvious Gruden and Reggie agree that this Raider team is done and a new one needs to be built. If you are a Raider fan, all better hope that Gruden gets it right or the franchise will be buried in Vegas, just like many mobsters.
stick and move
I agree with Stick and Move comment that the problems started last year. A few people on this blog have conveniently forgotten all of the following:
1) The Raiders lost ten games last year. 2) Had no one at right tackle along in the tooth veteran at LT.
3) No one returning from a crap ass secondary and not one name lb on the roster. They had to turn over the entire defense
4) In 2016 their point differential was 31 and they were 9-2 in one possession games. Sounds like a 9-7 team that caught some serious breaks
5) The locker room was fractured last year and the offense was a joke.
He saw the team for what it is and decided in needed rebuild vs struggling to an 8-8 or 9-7 finish at best. Seriously other than Mack does anyone really get upset about the players that are gone. --- aside from NY about Navarro Bowman---lol. NY you are a smart guy but come on you have been acting like Gruden tore down a contender. At best he tore down a mediocre team that was about to enter salary hell.
Look around the sports world guys, football has become like basketball or hockey, you build a team through the draft and managing your cap.
I prefer to praise Gruden. I believe he does have a plan and is smarter than all of us and the media for not revealing it.
You dont have two or three players on max contracts when you are mediocre cause you will never got over the hump. You need a bunch of stars on rookie contracts and then catch lightening in the bottle for a year or two by mixing in some fa vets---i.e the Rams. That time passed for the Raiders when Coop, Mack and Carr came of age and needed to get paid.
Why should Gruden tell everyone the team sucks and lose leverage in trades? Where would the raiders be if they were paying three guys 20 mm plus and not even be close to being the best team in their division. Is that what Nate and NY wanted?
In eight months Gruden has stockpiled 3 extra first rounders, an extra 2 and 79 mm in cap space. He sold high on his best trade assets while he still could. I say he is off to a fantastic start.
Regards
Sandy
Gruden's first time in Oakland he had no choice but to work with the talent that Davis provided. That actually worked well, as he left Oakland a superbowl-ready team.
Silly me, I expected the same basic approach. And why not? He had players like Mack, Carr, Cook, Hudson, Osemele, Jackson, et al. I figured Gruden would bolster the roster over the next couple years and we'd be back in business.
There's no doubt he made a run at it this year. Otherwise why sign so many vets? Why sign Jordy Nelson? Why take a chance on Derek Johnson? Johnson is quoted as saying he came to Oakland thinking they would make a run at a championship.
Clearly, Gruden changed his mind, and decided to scrap 2018 altogether.
But what was the tipping point? IMO, the Mack trade was far more damaging than he thought it could be.
Sandy, blaming last year is convenient, but that's why you hire a new coach and a whole new coaching staff. Gruden was the Raiders B-12 injection. The culture and attitudes changed instantly upon his hiring. All the vets he signed thought they were coming to a contender.
I don't think you can simply say the Raiders offense sucked last year... when it was coached by Todd Downing, and that's why they can't get out of their own way this year.
$10mm a year for a HC deserves a higher expectation.
lol, if only fixing a 6-10 team was as easy as hiring a new coach. Bang head on wall. Once again, we see a fan who just refuses to accept that the team fell apart, right before our eyes, on Monday Night Football last year. Some people put their own agenda ahead of facts. Do you think Vince Lombardi would have turned the team around? I think many are mad because they didn't see this coming and now are acting like a spurned lover. Of course the Raiders aren't telling us the truth, they have a business to run. And if a team is running itself on what the fans want, they will become fans real quick. Time to quit complaining and accept that it still isn't fixed and the JDR 12-4 was a fluke because the team turned on itself in the next year.
stick and move
Sandy, like I've said, this may ultimately be for the better, we shall see. I was never high on Reggie McKenzie and took a arrows here for suggesting he'd spent a lot of time failing to build a winner.
So I have one question:
How on earth can RM, after 6 years at the helm building this team, declare himself untouchable (as he did yesterday) and participate in the utter dismantling of a roster he was paid to build over the past six years?
RT,
Reggie seems to have been completely emasculated since Gruden arrived. I can not see him back next year. That statement in the presser was bizarre.
I too will not shed a tear. The draft with Carr, Mack, Jackson and Ellis was phenomenal. Osemle and Penn good signings. Other than that I honestly cannot think of any other great moves, just plenty of bad ones, Hayden, Joseph etc. He did not acquire enough talent in the seven years he has been GM.
Have a good night
Sandy
My apologizes. I didn't get the memo that the Raiders would suck this year.
Despite the fact that Carr was injured much of last season, and the Raiders were severely under-coached (to the point which Del Rio lost the team), they managed to go 6-10.
Enter the highest paid HC in football history, as well as Guenther and others, and a swarm of veterans, many of whom have played on championship teams and were expecting another, and the Raiders are headed for 1-15.
Meanwhile, Raiders players (good and bad) can't get out the door fast enough.
So while Gruden the GM might have a master plan that he's not telling anyone about, Gruden the HC has shown us nothing. He can't even coach his way into the second half of games which the Raiders were competing in the first half. He has been out-coached in every game. That should have us all concerned.
So far, 2018 is easily the worst team in Raiders history, and that's no small feat.
NY
Worse team in Raiders history? Enough with the hyperbole that is ridiculous. Every veteran he signed can be cut without a cap hit next year. I feel so bad for these veterans-lol, because you know 10 other teams were knocking on Derrick Johnson door along with Bowman.
There is no debating this with you because you refuse to admit that the Raiders sucked last year and were going to suck this year regardless of coaching with or without Mack. Check the DVOA stats on our D last year and this it is the same.
Outcoached my ass, I suppose Jimmy Johnson who went 1-15 his first year with the Cowboys was a shit coach or Bill Walsh who was 2-14 etc. Guenther and Gruden are doing what they can but starting two rookie OT and three rookies on the D-line is not going to be an issue of coaching.
The talent was severely lacking and Gruden is ripping off the band aid.
Sorry if you prefer to have kept Mack and Cooper and handcuffed the salary structure but finish 8-8 or 9-7 and third place in the division, I would rather have 5 first rounders.
Have a good day
Sandy
What I said---Sandy
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/10/23/18013438/jon-gruden-coach-gm-amari-cooper-khalil-mack
Ringer article is good, it's one way to look at it.
Fittingly, and conspicuously, the only single mention of RM in the entire article is of Gruden "waging an open war on lame-duck GM Reggie McKenzie’s draft picks."
The worst teams was with Aaron Brooks, Todd Marijuanavich, and JaMarcus Russell at the helm. The Raiders had no talent on those teams. I would say this is the worst team that coming into the season had a potentially decent roster, with a young core of talented players. With the draft of Key, Hurst, and Hall, and the pick up of some key DB free agents, who here thought that with Mack in the lineup that our D-Line would struggle? This thought crossed nobody's mind on this site until after Mack was traded. This team had the potential to turn things around and repeat what they did in 2016, with more help on defense; only to become a bonfire. Its all on Gruden's shoulders. I say it again, rebuilding a team involves the youth talent on the roster, not trading them.
Kelechi Osemele, Gabe Jackson, Gaeron Conley, Derek Carr, Karl Joseph, and Bruce Irvin are all now to be rumored on the trading block. So much for rebuilding, this is burning it all down. If these trades happen, Gruden will have torn the heart out of this organization. How can any Raider fan say that trading Mack, Cooper, and potentially Carr is good for this organization? Why because Gruden gets draft picks? How well has he done in the draft again? Outside of Aqib Talib, name one person Gruden drafted that was worth his salt? He did this exact thing to Tampa after he won the Super Bowl because of the "This-was-Tony-Dungy's-Team" that followed that win. He refuses to do the same with RM-Del Rio roster. Look how well the Bucs did with that. This will not go well for the Raiders; I don't care how many first round picks he gets. One rumor has the Raiders attempting to trade Carr to the Giants for Eli Manning and a second rounder. Gruden is stupid enough to try this, but thank God Eli has a no trade clause.
It would seem Raider Take is pounding the 'Reggie sucks' drum. And his buddy ny, is pounding the 'Gruden is insane' drum. They both refuse to admit the team was a mess before Gruden stepped foot in Oakland. They refuse to acknowledge that Reggie has been working with his HC's to draft teams in their HC's image. They refuse to acknowledge that most GM's work with their HC's in drafts.
Now, if I remember correctly, on this very site, when Mark was going to hire JDR, ny etc, all were saying it was Mark who hired JDR and it wasn't Reggie. If that was the case, you have a HC forced onto the GM and the GM wants to work with the new HC. So now, it's all Reggie's fault? The Raiders don't work like most pro franchises, never have. I think what I am getting at, is the direction of this site. There is so much complaining but very little understanding, I guess some of us would like to see a little more understanding and reasoning within the fan base. So we try to explain, but it becomes an exercise in banging the head against the wall. Some just refuse to see. Oh well, carry on with your bashing, it's what you do.
stick and move
My thing is I can longer follow a blind faith approach. Gruden has to show me something; anything. I'm still waiting for a modicum of inspiration from the sideline, and with halftime adjustments. If you don't think he's getting out-coached, you're not watching. Half the time, he's beating himself with bonehead plays and personnel decisions.
When you replace guys like Mack, Osemele, Jackson, maybe even Hudson (assuming these guys might now be on the market), there's supposed to be an expectation that you improve those positions. That's a serious overreach.
Therefore, Gruden's scorched earth approach deserves my skepticism.
Funny, guys now saying (or implying) "Gruden is the man" were also saying "Del Rio was the man" and "McKenzine was the man" before that. Yet, here we are.
I am not implying Gruden is the man, again, you resort to disingenuous dialogue to make strawman arguments.
Gruden is showing you something, he is showing you that he thinks this team was a joke and wants to redo it.
JDR was an upgrade from any HC the Raiders had since Gruden I. As we saw, he wasn't up to much. Yes, we all fell for the 12-4 and had dreams in our head, it was a false dream. I still back Reggie, he is trying to serve an owner who wants to step in and doesn't want to step in, ya know? Now he is working with another HC the owner hired and a HC who is making way more money. He is a loyal guy and he knows his shit, he is doing what he can under the circumstances.
It's not the normal situation in Oakland, nothing about it is, so you can't look at it like every other situation because there never has been a franchise in pro sports like the Raiders. It's a very unique situation that still has ties to when the Dad ran the team, it's still trying to get passed the hole that was dug.
It is what it is, you can either accept or not and move on. Complaining every day about it, isn't good for you.
stick and move
Clearly, this is the new and improved, stick and move, f/k/a Jones. It's not my intention to put words into your mouth. I apologize if that's the case. But you appear (to me) to be strongly defending Gruden's actions like he had no other options, and all we can see so far is seek and destroy.
And we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. McKenzie, by many accounts, is a dead man walking.
So if I'm to accept a total rebuild, which I have no choice, I'd still like to see a little more coaching savvy on the field for my money.
Way to go captain obvious. I am not defending Gruden's actions, just stating the facts. I am not at practices and in the locker room but reading from a distance, it seems pretty obvious what is happening. Meaning, Gruden came in and probably had a very good idea what he was coming into before he even got there, saw that he didn't like it and now he is in the process of changing it. Like I wrote earlier, this team blew up on Monday Night for all to see, way before Gruden was here. Mack wouldn't show up and put a gun to the Raiders head, so he was traded for 2 1st RD'ers. Mack not showing, shows he wasn't really happy in Oakland, he wanted out and he got it. So now we are seeing Gruden do some things that are questionable but like I wrote many moons ago....the tank is in. VERY OBVIOUS.
stick and move, aka your daddy HAHAHA
The Raiders have drafted two Pro Bowlers in their last 13 first-round picks. They traded both of them this season.
What I see is the Mack trade blew up in Gruden's face, and Gruden ended up with a substandard roster that he mostly filled.
So now he's gonna blow it up. That truly is obvious, Captain Jones.
Good coaches can build off players strengths, like Musgrave did with Carr. Gruden has taken the opposite approach and is forcing players into his scheme.
That approach didn't work in Tampa.
It's possible that Gruden's best days as a HC were when Al Davis was calling the shots.
We will see.
Raiders now have as many 2018 drafted rookies on the active roster as they have drafted players from all other drafts combined.
I guess we can give Gruden credit for blowing it up expeditiously.
Carr
Jackson
Conley
Lee
Joseph
Calhoun
Feliciani
That's maybe three good players left from the McKenzie era.
Good news!
We get to see why Gruden gave Doug Martin premium vet treatment during the pre-season by keeping him on the sideline.
Martin has been tagged feature back to replace Lynch.
Martin has the lowest per carry average in the NFL since 2016. In all fairness, with injuries on the Raiders O-line, it won't be entirely Martin's fault if his average doesn't improve... which I'm guessing it won't.
Hey NY mister glass mostly empty you just said Reggie drafted terribly could not agree with you more.
Now you need to look through that lens because you would see that
Thank God Gruden acted quickly sold high and acquired the assets to give them a chance to rebuild. I look at all the other crap teams Zona, Denver, Bills, Giants, 49ers and the Raiders are in amuch much better position going forward.
Ballsy but Brilliant and decisive by Gruden. I was not up for bouncing between 6-9 wins for the next 3 years. Are you so miserable after 15 years of crap that you would have been okay with that?
Here are Reggie's defensive picks from 15-17. Edwards Jr, Joseph, Ward, Calhoun, Cory James, Heeney, Ball, Conley, Obi, Vandoores, Luani, Lee.
Two mediocre starters if you count conley and lee.
But hey its all Grudens fault if he had only kept around all these guys we would be the 85 Bears---lol.
Have a nice weekend
Sandy
Sandy, that's disingenuous and you know it.
Mckenzie had his failures, but he also had some successes, and even those are getting torched.
The tipping point for me was the Mack trade. There was no circumstance that required the Raiders to trade the best defensive player in the league in his prime. And for the record, simply wanting to receive fair pay is not evidence that Mack wanted to leave, just like it wasn't when Veldheer was shown the door. Somehow the Raiders (and some fans) equate wanting fair pay with disloyalty.
At the very least, the Raiders could have handled that so much better.
But there have been so many other issues, like undervalued trades in the draft, poor personnel decisions, bonehead play calls, lack of in-game adjustments, and a general cluelessness that takes me back to some of the worst Raiders teams over the past 15 years.
It's pretty clear that Gruden has contributed to Carr's regression. Why can't Gruden design and/or call plays that better match Carr's skills? Maybe Carr is too much of a pushover, and what Gruden needs is an equalizer more in the mold of a Gannon A-type QB.
The best move so far was getting a 1st first pick for Cooper. Finally, the Raiders get real value in a trade!
But stockpiling draft picks doesn't make the Raiders a better team now or in the future. Good decisions still need to be made, and it looks like they need better coaching as well.
Honestly, I'm floored that any Jon Gruden-coached team can be this bad. That has me concerned.
Cheers!
Sandy,
You talk about Reggie having bad drafts, I asked the question earlier, outside of Aqib Talib, how has Jon Gruden's draft picks turned out? Reality is that McKenzie has had better drafts than Gruden. Trading away core, young, talented players for draft picks doesn't constitute as rebuilding, it constitutes as giving up and starting over.
After 4 seasons where DC has had 3 OC's, and sparks of hope that the Raiders can turn things around, Mark Davis fired Del Rio. Gruden comes in before the season starts and decides he can't do anything with this roster and begins to blow it apart. Before even coaching a game, Gruden decides that the best young talent to build around will not do and trades him to the Bears. Now he has rid the Raiders of the core group of talent. Some deservedly, some very questionable.
Getting a first rounder for Cooper appears to be valuable, but again, Gruden and McKenzie has to strike gold with those picks; meaning they have to make a pick that will turn out better than Mack and Cooper. He's not done either, Conley and Joseph are going to be on the field more this Sunday "showcasing" their talent. Giants are rumored to be showcasing interest in Derek Carr, which absolutely scares me.
As much as he has struggled this year, both Carr and Mack were the heart and soul of this team. Carr is the best QB we've had in 15 years, and he is still a guy who could rise above it and become MVP of the league. Trading Mack away has made me feel like Gruden doesn't care about the Raiders. Fire sales like he is doing, shows me that he does not have the ability to coach a players strengths. If he trades/cuts Carr, it will absolutely affirm my feelings, but will add Mark Davis and Reggie McKenzie to that list. That is unacceptable to me. It would be one thing if he inherited JaMarcus Russell, or Aaron Brooks, or even the roster that Reggie McKenzie inherited. It's another to inherit a roster that had some holes, but showed some promise like the one that Gruden got, and blow it up and deem it useless, the way he has. To me, that is unacceptable.
Winning will change that. Winning can start this Sunday, not next season, not in 3 seasons.
Raiders mailed in the season, and now may have mailed in this game. Osemele is injured, and Melvin is a healthy scratch (inactive), despite his $6.0mm contract.
Lynch IR
Cooper traded
Would love to see some competent coaching today, and not just by the other team.
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