Chargers Gameday Thread
Tall order today, all things considered. If we're supposed to be rooting for the first pick in the draft instead of a victory today, that might explain last week. However, it wouldn't explain giving up a third rounder for Martavis Bryant before the season started. Are the Raiders even trying to win today? I hope so, but then that would make the first half of the season all the more inexplicable. GO....?
posted by Raider Take at 1:16 PM
37 Comments:
Points are important, not only for the final score, but for morale. The first drive, 4th and goal from the 1, if you don't pass, you have to kick the FG. Tried an end-around, and was stuffed. A QB sneak could have been a better call there. Since that drive, the Raiders have been pretty flat on offense. Could be up 6-3 at this point, instead tied at 3.
Make that 10-3, as the Chargers wake up, and the Raiders fall back to sleep.
9 points in the last two games. Raiders offense is totally anemic. Hard to believe Carr once led the league in plays over 20 yards. Even when down by several scores, Raiders now look to dink and dunk their way to losses.
Carr has no chemistry with any of his receivers... ever since Crabtree left.
Defense looked better today, i.e., once the Raiders traded, cut or benched many of Gruden's off-season veteran acquisitions.
Seven more losses to go in the race for #1 pick.
Go Giants!
Rumor has it that Jordy Nelson is about to retire after this last Sunday's game. He didn't come to rebuild (Implode), he came to win. I don't think after this season, vets will want to play for the Raiders. Mark Davis has taken the blame for Mack and Coop, and lets readers know that Gruden showed him how this team needed to be re-done. Really?
Said they offered Mack a good contract, and he and Gruden talked, and after that Mack wouldn't talk with them again. What wasn't said was that Mack didn't talk to the organization again, because Gruden reneged the offer.
This is not going to be pretty for a long time, and I don't think Gruden is the answer.
In other news, John Harbaugh may be looking after this season...
I am really surprised and disappointed to say this, but Gruden looks like he's over his head. He lost the team only a few weeks into this season. There's no doubt it's a divided locker room. Otherwise, vets wouldn't be dropping like flies. Instead of vet leaders, we have quitters.
I'll say it again, this is the worst Raiders team I can ever remember.
Mark Davis taking the blame is a joke. He has no say. He turned that over to Gruden.
Need more proof Gruden is missing in action? Whitehead has played almost every defensive snap this year, but he is easily the worst defender on the team. He has yet to defend a pass and has allowed a perfect passer rating to opposing QBs (over 30 pass completions and at least 2-3 TDs).
John Harbaugh is infinitely better than Gruden.
Nelson and Bryant are out with injuries (Nelson could retire) and Raiders are scrambling for WR help.
LaFell has been great under the circumstances, and Ateman will likely get some snaps behind Roberts and Harris.
But the Raiders need another WR. This doesn't sound like much, but they should give Keon Hatcher another chance. He deserves it after having a monster game (against subs) in the preseason finale. Plus, Gruden went back on his word (what a surprise!) to keep him on the roster after that game.
Signing another fill-in vet would be a total waste of time!
Hatcher might be a decent slot receiver.
Currently, he's on GB's practice squad.
"Mark Davis taking the blame is a joke. He has no say. He turned that over to Gruden."
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Wow, you mean Mark Davis sold Gruden the Raiders for $100 million!! Gruden is the owner too?
And Reggie gets paid to be the GM, goes around telling everyone he's the GM, but Gruden is really the GM?
And I suppose Gruden masterminded this whole thing. He plotted and planned to have the owner not be the owner, and the GM not be the GM.
Meanwhile Mark Davis and Reggie Mckenzie sit there like two little babies, sucking their thumbs, and helplessly watch as Gruden destroys their one winning season out of six years team.
This is an incredible story, unheard of in the history of sports. Did you guys read about in the National Inquirer, or did you just make it all up?
Has anyone noticed the Raiders have 11 picks in the upcoming draft? May even have more by the time draft is here. Probably the first overall pick too. Is this a bad thing?
Tell you what, why don't you guys call the bears and offer them all 11 picks, and the first overall pick, to get Mack back.
This way you can have Mack and his 4 win Raider teams, that can't even stop Brock Osweiller, and Reggie can sit like Jabba the Hut, and draft players with heart conditions, and Mark Davis can tell the fan base how he knows what he doesn't know, and all will be bliss in Raiders land once again.
Because things were just so damn perfect before Gruden got to Oakland. Happy losers with no pressure at all. oh what a time it was.
00 -
Sarcasm!
Of course Davis is to blame globally. My biggest criticism is that Davis has given Gruden too much authority. That goes with the territory when you spend $100mm.
And, at the risk of being redundant, stockpiling draft picks is no assurance that good decisions will follow.
By next season's roster, we could conceivably have less than five players drafted pre-Gruden, with many of the same people, e.g., McKenzie and Davis, in charge... unless you believe Gruden is now making the decisions (as I do).
Mack wasn't the problem, and his contract negotiations appear to have been grossly mishandled.
Again, you rebuild around guys like Mack and Carr, not get rid of them. The one area this team had no problems with was the O-Line (with exception of RT), and it is a sore spot this season. It wasn't a perfect roster, but coming into this season, there weren't this many holes to fill. Raiders needed at least one more CB, MLB, DT to fill some of those holes. Offensively, they needed a weapon at WR. None of those positions were filled, with the exception of DT (through the draft), and on top of that, the talent that the Raiders did have are no longer on the team.
What was the difference in all of this? MD and RM have remained, oh yeah, it was Gruden. Read the ESPN story on Mark, he said that Gruden came in and showed him the problem with this roster, he came in with a plan, and Mark let him dismantle this roster; beginning with Mack. As Mark said in the article, the buck stops with him, but it begins with him giving Gruden the control over the roster he's given him. Instead of telling him, "You have to make it work with these core players" he said "Do what you want, I trust you."
Reggie said it with Dennis Allen, Del Rio, and now Gruden, that his job as the GM is to get what the Head Coach and his staff wants. His first job as GM was to get the organization in order of how business was ran, then the salary cap, and then the roster. He has done stellar in the first 2. It wasn't until Del Rio arrived that the roster began to change, but even then there were some head scratching picks. We definitely could have had a better roster through the draft. But like I said, we came into this offseason with a few positions that needed to be addressed, but Gruden imploded this roster because he wants it "HIS WAY".
IMO, the offense was serviceable across the board, with the only immediate need at RT.
Biggest mistakes on offense were moving Penn to the right side (probably caused his injury), dumping Olawale for Keith Smith, and trading a 3rd round pick for Bryant.
Defense had far more holes, compounded by losing Mack and Bowman. Sandy likes beating down my appreciation for Bowman, but in 3/4 season he was the Raiders leading tackler and clearly made a significant impact when he took over at MLB. He's good in coverage and against the run, and several years younger than Johnson, who ended up being a total bust.
https://raiderswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/10/raiders-dc-Guenther-bemoans-roster-turnover-including-loss-of-lb-navorro-bowman/
Retaining Reggie Nelson has proven to be a huge mistake in the secondary, as well benching Conely earlier in the season. Tahir Whitehead ranks among the worst LBs in the league, surrendering a perfect passer rating.
These kinds of decisions don't exactly beam with confidence for future personnel decisions. Raiders have to do much better, or expect more of the same.
Mark Davis didn't want to pay Mack 90 mill guaranteed. Mark gave Gruden the keys and now Gruden is doing what he thinks is right and that is a do over.
You want assurances? Was it assured that the team would have been good with Carr and Mack taking up a lot of cap space? Was it assured that the team would have been a SB contender by going this route? Nothing is assured in the sports world, you talk in terms that are not real.
Raiders are tanking and it's very obvious to those who can see. I know, I know, teams don't tank, right? LMFAO.
Headbutt
Offense was serviceable? Did you watch it last year? The Monday Night game in D.C.and after, did you see that offense? Bowman? He is so good that nobody will sign him, smh.
doh
Mack wasn't asking for 90 million, he was asking for a comparable package to what Von Miller got ($60 million). Initially, toward the end of the season, RM announced the Raiders and Mack were in a verbal agreement, and then Gruden came in, reneged that offer, and low-balled him (Gruden said as much, go back and look at the archives on CSN Bay Area). Mack left, the BEARS gave him 90 million, but that number was never offered by the Raiders. More in the area of $65 million guaranteed, again, according to the story toward the end of last season. Though Reggie never offered monetary figures, this was what the pundits were saying in the media. It wouldn't have broken the Raiders; that is the BS that Gruden and Mark Davis are spinning to justify trading away their best defender.
You are going to hear the same BS when they cut Derek Carr at the end of this season too. Be ready for it.
if Mack wasn't asking for it, why did he get it? If a team says 65 mill guaranteed, where does the 90 mill number come from? You are full of shit, if Mack wasn't asking for 90 mill, he would not have got 90 mill. Where do you kids get your reasoning skills? Because, IMO, you don't have any.
Headbutt
The pay scale got spiked after Aaron Donald signed his deal. The Raiders had ample time and opportunity to sign Mack at a fair deal for everyone.
To suggest the Raiders could not have signed Mack for less that $90mm guaranteed is disingenuous, at best.
Derek Carr played injured last year. That, and the the fact the Todd Downing was running the offense is obviously why the offense sucked.
Are you saying Jon Gruden offense is (can be) NO BETTER than a Todd Downing offense?
Wait! Don't answer that. Is Tom Walsh available?
Nope, saying the Raiders are tanking. To say that Mack would have taken 65 mill is just a flat out lie. Mack could have come into camp at any time, he didn't because he wanted the money/wanted out. Mack wanted to be the highest paid, period. To say Mack didn't want top dollar and Chicago just wanted to pay him a lot more out of the goodness of their hearts, you have no clue at all. Once again you ACT as if you are an authority on the subject, you couldn't be more off.
Headbutt
It's fascinating that you know what Mack was thinking.
Go back and listen to Mack's presser in Chicago.
Mack and every Raiders player that he was close to (and communicated with every day) said the trade came as a complete shock. Mack was always expected to play for Oakland.
As for tanking, the Raiders have no choice. They absolutely suck! But given the opportunity, they would win another game, just like the Giants did yesterday.
Personally, I'd much rather they tank.
PS I agree Mack could have gone to camp at any time. That sucks because I think a deal would have gotten done if Mack just showed up.
You tell us what Mack is thinking all the time. The old 'one rule for you and one for me' is still strong in your troll tactics. Obviously Mack wanted the money, or he would of showed up, Mack wasn't taking calls as Gruden tried to contact him. If he was bargaining in good faith, he would of showed up, had dialogue with his new HC and showed that he wanted to be a Raider. He showed the opposite, actions speak so much more true than words, don't they? And one more thing, funny how that words that were uttered by Mack, is 'truth' and anyone who represents the Raiders Hq's, their words are to be taken as lies, according to your 'logic'. So right there, you have a deep bias that prevents you from coming to any rational conclusion. Your opinions are void, worthless. And this is why this site sucks, same old rhetoric that has no basis in fact. it's been this way from the start, shame.
Headbutt
Am I missing something or was Mack holding out? LEvon Bell number 2
IMO, Mack is more believable. I think Gruden, Davis and company are more concerned about covering their tracks for what many believe was a big mistake. Gruden's propensity to mislead the media only makes the org appear less reliable in its statements.
Raiders pulled the same trick when Veldheer left.
Yes, Mack held out. But whose fault was that? Are the Raiders without blame? IMO, Raiders should have resolved Mack's contract before it became untenable (after Donald signed). Alternately, they could have traded Mack before the draft, when the trade value would have been better defined and we'd already have a draft pick from that deal.
As it is, the trade value keeps going down.
Mack is gone, and it is what it is, but I can't pretend the Raiders are without fault. I disagree with their decision. Unfortunately, we won't have any clarity until 2020 or beyond.
So here is the sucker punch to the story. When the Rams have to pay Goff, the first to go will be Donald and Suh. When the Bears have to pay Trubinsky, the first to go will be Mack.
$65 million guaranteed was the "reasonable" price tag for a defender like Mack at the end of the season, until Aaron Donald signed his contract with the Rams. That is what prompted the Bears to pay Mack $90 million guaranteed. Gruden said it when Mack was traded that he wasn't going to pay $65 million to a defender, he offered him $35 million, which in his mind was a reasonable salary. Go back and read it in CSN Bay Area archives. Gruden spoke with Mack when he was hired, and Mack didn't speak with the team after that because they were playing Gruden's hand. Mack held out, because the Raiders reneged on the initial offer. Go back and read it.
Is Mack on record of saying any of this crap you guys are spouting. Is he refuting anything Gruden or Davis has said. He was going to hold out into the season,he turned the Raiders down twice.
All I said was that Mack and his Raiders teammates were surprised when a trade went down. Again, go and listen to his intro presser in Chicago, and read the tweets from Carr, Irving and others.
I get the Raiders weren't going to pay Mack the $141mm extension that the Bears paid, nor would I expect that. But the price only became out of reach after Donald signed his deal. Raiders had plenty of time, starting last year, to negotiate a more favorable deal.
Fast forward, of course Mack is happy to be traded and be the highest paid D player. But that's not synonymous with Mack wanting to leave, as you stated.
Is Mack on record saying he wanted to leave Oakland?
Raiders are once again the joke of the NFL. The extra bye week for teams on their schedule.
Plenty of time to do a deal with him sounds like they tried they twice offered him League highest paid defensive player money he turned them down both times his Agent and him we're obviously going to not sign anything until Donald did then it became too high irrefutable. Not saying he didn't deserve the money he got but the Raiders couldn't wouldn't and shouldn't have match that offer from the Bears
Khalil Mack has 148 mm contract, Cooper will get 80-100. That is 248 combined.
Raiders can sign all of their of 6 first rounders on 4 year contracts for a total of 100mm. (Bosa, Devon White, a top WR this year)
Have plenty left over for a Tyron Matheu or CJ Mosley, Collins etc.
Sounds like Chucky has paved teh way for a potential bright future instead of having a team that was mediocre to crap and had a ceiling of 9-7.
NY, Nate I apologize in advance for not being negative
Sandy
No Sandy, I appreciate the positive outlook. I say no to Bosa. Like his brother, he has not played a full college season; and he won't be able to play a full NFL season. We need someone who has longevity. Ed Oliver Jr, though he is listed as a DT with Houston University, plays along the entire line (DE and DT). The website has him listed at 295, but the coaches say 295 is too heavy for him, and he is really at 270-275; which makes him terrific for a DE. Draft him over Bosa.
The next pick should be Josh Allen (MLB/OLB, Kentucky), and then the third first rounder should be Zach Allen (DE, Boston College), then you have your 2 DE's squared away.
Here is my initial Mock Draft for 2019. I got the Rounds/order from tankathon.com. Also, these are dependent on what happens in Free Agency, so they will change as the offseason comes at us:
1 (#1) - Ed Oliver Jr (DL, Houston). This guy will have an impact in the NFL, the way Mack and Donald has had an impact. A better player and prospect than Bosa. Has a Howie Long feel to how he plays, and would be an instant "Classic Raider" with his style (the way we all felt Mack would be).
1b (#13)- Josh Allen (MLB, Kentucky)
1c (#25)- Marquise Brown (WR, Oklahoma), great speed, great hands. Scouts compare him to TY Hilton.
2 (#33) - Zach Allen (DE, Boston College), I initially had him the third pick in the first round in my last few posts, but after seeing film, I think he may drop into the 2nd round.
tankathon has the Raiders picking in the 3rd round (#65). I thought Pittsburgh owned that pick with the trade of Bryant. But here is my pick:
3 (#65) - Dalton Risner (OT, Kansas St) or Andre Dillard (OT, Washington St)
4 (#97) - David Sills (WR, West Virginia), a middle round steal.
5 (#129) - Te'Von Coney (OLB, Notre Dame) another middle round steal. Coming into the season, scouts weren't really impressed with him, but as the season continues, he is starting to get the scouts' eyes. He has played above expectations.
6 (#186) - Corey Ballentine (CB, Washburn) this guy is going to be a small school gem. He may be the PJ Hall/Mo Hurst steal of the draft. THis may change, depending on how he does at the Senior Bowl and Combine. He has the potential to rise and surprise. If the draft were today, he would be a solid 5-6 rounder because of the small school.
7 (#193) - Saquan Hampton (S, Rutgers) If he was in a "larger" school, he may be one of the top safeties in the draft. The knock is lack of talent played against. I think he may be a last day surprise who has potential to start and impact the game.
7 (#206) - KeeSean Johnson (WR, Fresno St), a tall guy with good speed and hands. Could be a good return guy, and slot/goal line WR they were hoping Ateman to be. Definitely has better hands than Ateman. The issue will be with route running.
Sandy,
I'm not trying to be negative for the sake of it. Complete dismantling of the team was the path the Raiders took, but it clearly wasn't their first inclination. Haphazard comes to mind. I guess I expected more from Gruden than just flying by the seat of his pants.
Raiders got real value for Cooper, so that's a trade you make all day long.
I've been critical of coaching, and that's not changed, but I like the approach to play and evaluate younger players. Still seven weeks to see what's left on the roster.
Nate, that's way too deep for my limited exposure to college ball. I understand the concern with Bosa, but injury has that ever stopped the Raiders before? Probably the best move is to trade down for more picks.
Re: Ateman, he's not really been given the chance to show off his talent. I thought he looked reliable in pre-season. IMO, he needs to be on field. Now is the perfect opportunity. If he drops a TD pass, it just places the Raiders closer to #1 pick. But it looks like it will be inactive again this week.
The word is Ateman is not a clean rout runner and is having trouble understanding the vernacular of the plays, etc. I know he's a rookie, but at some point he has to put in the work and study the playbook and learn. That is why they had him on the practice squad, to study and learn. I think Gruden likes his abilities, but not his work ethic.
Injuries haven't stopped the Raiders before, no, but now Gruden is here. He knows he needs his first rounders to be out of the park. He knows he can't take a risky pick and gamble that it works out and miss. That is the change in mentality by imploding your roster the way he has. Ed Oliver Jr is the safest pick right now for an immediate impact. Bosa is a risky pick. He won't be able to participate in the Senior Bowl. He will be lucky to participate in the Combine, which is what he is shooting for. I'm not sure I take that risk there, maybe in the late first or second, depending on how he does. He may end up like Hurst did.
I said it before too, all these can change, depending on what the Raiders do in the offseason. For instance, if they trade/cut Derek Carr, then I think Justin Herbert (QB, Oregon) becomes a priority pick. It will be an interesting offseason, but it has to end up better than 2014.
Do the Raiders have a "clean route runner"?
They also don't have any tall WRs who come down with contested passes. Carr had thrown several "up-for-grabs" passes to Bryant, who is no Larry Fitzgerald. Defenders have gotten the best of Raiders receivers all year.
Preseason, Ateman looked to have that ability. He's tall, and he didn't seem to mind fighting for the ball.
I say, throw him into the fire.
Nate you must be from Texas, No way Oliver goes before Bosa or before Quinnen Williams and Clenin Ferrell as well. I see him falling out of top 5.
Regards
Sandy
Sandy,
I live in Austin. There is no way Bosa is taken first overall. He will drop like Hurst did. If he is at the Combine, he may not even be healthy enough to participate. I'd rather spend my first pick on Oliver Jr than Bosa.
Oliver has been out the last few games with a minor knee injury, so you are right, if he doesn't get healthy, he may be falling down the draft. But he will still be a first rounder, of which we have 3. Josh Allen or Marquise Brown are good enough to be the first overall.
Nick struggles against run defense on the edge, much like Arden Key. In fact, the two are pretty similar. Yes, Arden has upside, but his biggest glaring weakness is much like other younger players, over-pursuit and often out of position against defending the run on the edge. This can be corrected, depending on coachability. Bosa is a Sophmore, so we haven't had much time to see if he is coachable. Key continues to show he is not coachable, and does not follow his assignments.
Ed Oliver Jr is a stout pass rush, and run stuffer. He has played all along the line, DE, DT, and NT. He has great speed and awareness, but now needs help with strategy to get after the QB that he will get in the NFL. UH coaches says he is currently at 275, which makes him an ideal DE in the NFL. A lot of comparisons to Aaron Donald by scouts, who are scouting him as a DT. But seeing him play against Texas Tech, Oklahoma and others, he is very comparable and disruptive as Howie Long. Offensive Lineman constantly pointing him out and looking for him as he moves up and down the line, pre/post snap. Oliver is a Junior, and a more complete player than Bosa, who really needs another year of development at the age of 20. Bosa will be overwhelmed by the size and speed of the NFL, and as a sophmore coming out due to a core injury, he more than likely will not be "season" ready in 2019.
Nate, I wouldn't assume the Raiders won't draft Bosa. Injury doesn't keep them from drafting a player. We know this from DJ Hayden, who is an obvious and extreme example. But I seem to remember Watson and Edwards Jr were both injury-prone coming out of college... and perhaps a couple others who were coming off injury.
Hurst is an exception. He was cleared by two doctors and he dropped to the 5th round.
McKenzie has been (and Gruden now appears to be) a bargain shopper, and sometimes penny-wise and pound-foolish. Maybe that just goes with the territory of being an NFL GM.
True, injury hasn't been an issue with the Raiders; but age has. 20 is not NFL ready. To me that is 2 strikes against Bosa. I'm not too sure about the Quennin Williams or Clenin Ferrell. I will have to research them a little more and look at some video. I've seen a lot of games televised with Oliver Jr here though, and he has an impact on games. I like his motor, awareness, and knack to be where the ball is. Give me time to research Williams and Ferrell, Sandy, and I will give my assessments.
With that said, the Raiders face another winnable game this Sunday against Arizona. We should have at least 3-4 wins right now. I haven't been this disappointed with the Raiders since Lance Kiffin and JaMarcus Russell. It's gonna be a long season...
Nate,
I know you live in Austin I was ebing sarcasticre your bias towards a player on Houston.
Not sure what you watch but unlike Oliver who plays in a crap conference Bosa plays against the quality of Big Ten lineman. He dominates far superior competition against both run and pass. He weighs 270 he is no Arden Key in regards to how complete he is. I live in Florida and have watched him since high school. He is as good as Joey maybe better.
Oliver though a blue chip player and a potential pro bowler is no Donald or bite your tongue Howie Long.
Finally I take a great edge player over a tackle any day. Do a little reading and research and then come back to me. Williams is better than Oliver and plays in the SEC.
Regards
Sandy
Today's game with AZ might seem winnable based on record, but these teams are not as similar as record and scoring suggests. By some miracle, Raiders were able to keep up with a Hue Jackson-led Browns team (before Jackson's firing) and a defenseless Colts team, but AZ actually has a pass rush. And we all know Derek Carr cannot function behind a porous line against a decent pass rush... no matter who's calling the plays.
AZ D has 29 sacks this year, or almost 4x the Raiders as a team. Apparently, they like to blitz.
So I have this image of Carr throwing into the turf on 4th down with no time left, then telling us he had no other option.
We are officially in the play-it-safe, don't do too much, and wait until next year (or the year after) mode.
Good news, that fits right into the draft plan... which is all that's left this year.
GO AZ!
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