One Postgame Take
Can't this team even tank correctly? If we're tanking, what's the point of winning a meaningless game against our competitor for the #1 pick? Are we jogging after 49ers or in hot pursuit of Cardinals? Are we tearing this thing down from the outset or trading away third-round picks for Martavis Bryant? Are we in on Derek Carr or trying to demoralize him? Once this mess of a season is over, Gruden and Co. had better get to work. They have a lot to clean up, and a lot of picks to get right. If they aren't up to the task, then we are in for yet another nuclear winter in the Raider Nation.
posted by Raider Take at 5:32 PM
29 Comments:
Take, NY
you are upset about the Raiders winning?
Seriously---WTF?
I will enjoy reading the box score
Sandy
Sandy, not upset. Just confused.
Are the Raiders tanking this season? If not, how do you explain what has happened up to today? If they are, how do you explain today?
RT,
These guys are pros they dont lose on purpose. Gruden coached hard today I love that fire on the sideline between him and Carr.
A couple of wins would help with the spirit next year. Especially getting Carr back to where he belongs.
Enjoy the feeling dont lose sleep we are still getting a top 3 pick no matter what lol.
Have a good week.
Sandy
I really thought the Raiders were going to find a way to lose, and then Carr remembered who he was and threw the ball down field and we got the win. I'm seriously thrilled and excited for this win. Who cares if we don't own the first pick? Not me, I want wins. Great game, I hope we can string a few together. I hope DC called Gruden out for his horrible play calling too. He's looking red@$$ed like Gannon used to. JUST WIN, BABY!
For all those who say Gruden can not coach, I think he and Guenther did a great job with no WR and tons of rookies playing. Even if it was against the Cardinals.
Happy Thanksgiving to all
Sandy
Take....of course Mark Davis is to blame. He is not merely some "Fall Guy" willing to take blame. He is the one to blame. The fish rots from the head down as they say.
While MD is the owner of the Raiders, he has never put his stamp or brand on them. He acts as the caretaker of his fathers legacy, without ever seeming to be his own man. Every move he makes must pass the "What would Al do" test. By doing this MD is always looking back, and never forward.
Even the move to hire a GM was consulting old Raider greats, Madden & Wolf. They in turn recommended old 1990's Raiders linebacker, Reggie McKenzie. The move to hire Gruden was simply the latest reach back to the past.
It could be, as great as the Raiders legacy & history is, they are in desperate need of a sort of re branding. Other teams have done it.
Does every Cowboys HC wear a fedora hat? Every Packers HC wear dark rim eyeglasses? Every Bears HC wear a sweater vest? MD must find a way to hold on to the Raiders glorious past while at the same time moving forward to the future.
Why not have some fun with the uniforms. Retire the "Raiders theme". Take the "AL" sticker off the helmets. Stop living in the past.
Instead of asking the current players to try and live up to the greats from the past, let them carve out their own history. Blaze a path forward they can be proud of. Maybe they can earn a theme of their own.
When Rothlisburger throws to Brown, they are not thinking of Bradshaw to Swann in Pittsburgh. But Raider fans are left to pine away for the good old glory days. Waiting for the past to be recreated somehow, for moments that can never happen again.
as Rick Patino said, Bird, Parrish, & McHale are not walking through the door. Well neither are Stabler, Biletnikoff, and Hendricks.
If I want the past, I have plenty of old DVDS I can watch. Can Mark Davis give the fans some thing we can actually look forward to ?
I agree with what RT said; if the Raiders haven't been tanking up to this point, what in the pluke have they been doing? It's been like watching pre-season, when coaches don't like to play their hand and show off too much. The Raiders weak game-planning and vanilla play-calling has been almost unwatchable this year.
Sure, it was nice to see Derek Carr make another come-from-behind victory but the Raiders controlled their own draft destiny until yesterday. Draft slot is meaningful for picks and trades. With the Raiders, Cowboys and Bears winning yesterday, we continue to lose ground.
Are we rebuilding or not?
If so, losses are meaningful. Raiders, Cowboys and Bears losses.
Yes, that is the crux of my confusion. If Gruden was trying to win games all along, then what to make of all of these historically dismal performances (from players and coaches alike)? And if he wasn't trying to win games all along, then why suddenly win a game that's going to specifically cost you a draft slot?
I agree, Nate. The Raiders have rear-view mirror syndrome. The latest example is Gruden. He'd better be up to the task. If not, we have many more years of futility ahead, on top of what we've already endured over the past 15 years.
For those complaining about play calling. Watched Chargers game Sunday. Rivers throws 5 dump offs to RB's in a row. Marched right down the field.
The greatest play calling ever? No. But Gordon and the other back broke tackles, made people miss. They have talent!!!! Also have more space to work with because Chargers have WR's defense must worry about.
Hand off to Bo Jackson, or Doug Martin. Same exact play would have totally different results.
Look at the roster. The Raiders don't have much going on at skill positions. Gruden used to have Brown, Rice, and Porter. 2 hall of famers and Porter was very good when he wanted to be.
The plays will work a lot better as the talent level increases.
00
Rivers also successfully threw downfield to his receivers. That opens up the field for short plays. (Rivers had over 400 yards passing.)
The Raiders entire 2018 playbook lives around the line of scrimmage. Sure, that has to do with personnel, but an occasional long throw with even the possibility of a pass interference call deserves a chance over, say, throwing the ball into the ground on 4th down with the game clock about to expire.
Raiders play calling has become so predictable, I expected them to run short plays and run out the clock yesterday when all they needed was a field goal. To my surprise, they actually went for it..., or the Cards are that bad!
00
I call BS here that the Raiders don't have much going on at skill positions. We started the season with the #1 offensive line, Marshawn Lynch at RB, Cooper, Bryant, and Nelson at WR, and DC at QB. The only thing that has changed has been the system that Gruden has brought in, which is mostly a ZBS system. We were told it would be a hybrid, and it is not. We have power guys on the line trying to figure out ZBS, and notice that Kolton Miller is the outstanding O-Lineman on the team because he came from UCLA last season, who ran a ZBS system.
We had the talent to win this year if Gruden was the kind of coach that could coach to the strength of the players, and not system. He's not, so he has single-handedly torn this team down to nothing because they don't fit his system. Granted, Penn, Lynch, Nelson, Bryant are all out with injury; but that doesn't negate not having talent to back them up. Injuries are a part of the game, not having depth is on Gruden.
Right now, it is the O-Line getting accustomed to ZBS (again), and trying to be something they are not. Guaranteed Osemele gets cut this offseason; maybe Gabe Jackson too. Why? Not ZBS guys. These are 2 guys who have given up minimal sacks the past 2 years, and all of a sudden are acting like they don't know how to block. Raiders had good talent on the offensive side of the ball for it to be this anemic. Inexcusable.
"Marshawn Lynch at RB, Cooper, Bryant, and Nelson at WR,"
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Nate. really??
Lynch & Nelson, maybe 5 years ago, but now often hurt and broken down. "Claude Raines" Cooper, invisible in Oakland, and so far in Dallas too. Bryant is ok, but far from a OBJ, or a J.Jones type.
The offensive line started rookies at both tackle positions. There will be growing pains.
Not Grudens fault Penn broke down, and there was huge hole a RT.
I still like Carr though. hope they keep him and build up offense around him.
NYR...yes Rivers had 400 yards. They have Allen , Williams, Gates to throw to. But many of the yards were short throws with YAC added on.
00 - Gates is like 40. Is he still viable but Lynch and Nelson are not?
And I disagree it's not Gruden's fault that Penn got injured. Penn spent his entire career at LT. His footwork at RT was horrible, and he shouldn't have ever played a snap.
Raiders were not prepared at RT, and drafting Parker in the 3rd didn't help to change that.
LaFell to IR. That's a real shame because he was the best WR the Raiders have fielded this year.
But the Raiders brought back Keon Hatcher, who I really think deserves another look.
Nelson might return this week. Honestly, why? No way he's on the roster next year. Give Ateman and others more playing time.
Gates, age 40, on field, making plays, helping team. Why ask why...Just win.
Penn has been hurt previous to Grudens return. I believe Penn missed Texans playoff game, among others.
Gruden recruited Nelson and retained Lynch. Those were his choices.
Reggie let L. Murray go, and brought in older legs of Lynch.
Nelson can stretch field better than Crabtree. Either way, older vets both on last legs of careers.
Again, the 2018 version were choices made by Gruden. He filled the roster with, as you describe, "older vets on the last legs of their careers." Some of those vets have fled the team.
The most obvious answer is, make better choices. Gordons and Allens don't grow on trees. You want better players, you might need better management. Because after seven years of rebuilding the roster, it's back to square one.
Nelson replaced Crabtree, so that's a push.
Lynch already on roster. Gruden gave Reggies guy a chance. He broke down. What can you do.
"Invisible" Cooper was the best WR Reggie could find in 6 drafts. Again, Gruden gave him a chance to reappear, but Cooper was no good. Had to make a decision by trade deadline.
Roster was not filled with "old vets". Just Nelson & Martin. Nelson because he has more speed than Crabtree. Martin was suppose to have a secondary role behind Lynch. What's so shocking?
I thought Nelson would be better, but it's not a push. Nelson only has 25 receptions. That's not starter production. I think he was coming off injury last year, so maybe that was a factor.
Lynch had a big roster bonus and/or salary increase that should have made the decision to release him an easy one. Thought for sure he was done before this season.
Cooper trade favored the Raiders. I have said so many times.
Raiders set a record for the oldest roster in the NFL. Unless they signed a couple 80-year-olds to tip the scale, the roster was full of vets. Lynch, Martin, Johnson, Reggie Nelson, Penn, Irving, are a few that come to mind.
Nothing went right to the Raiders this year, i.e., unless deconstruction of the roster was the only goal... even that was sketchy.
Is there a single player on the current roster you can point to and say he is definitely part of the rebuilding process? The only one I can think of is Rodney Hudson, and even that is no certainty.
So far, what we know is that Doug Martin and Tajir Whitehead are Gruden's favorites. I don't have the updated stats, but Whitehead has yet to defend a pass in 2018... for well over 30 chances that passes were completed against him, including a 2-3 TDs. He is the worst LB is the NFL... but if you're listening Tajir, your coach loves you!
"Lynch & Nelson, maybe 5 years ago, but now often hurt and broken down. "Claude Raines" Cooper, invisible in Oakland, and so far in Dallas too. Bryant is ok, but far from a OBJ, or a J.Jones type."
Nobody was saying that at the beginning of the season. In fact, the majority of us expected the offense to do better than last season, especially with Gruden calling the plays. We were more excited seeing "progress" during Training Camp and Pre-Season; only to fall flat. My comments are and were, coming into this season, nobody predicted the Raiders would be in this situation. Once Mack was traded, Raider Nation began to worry, and for good reason.
NY,
Rodney Hudson, Gabe Jackson Kolton Miller, PJ Hall, Mo Hurst, Derek Carr, Jalen Richard are a few I'd build around. I would even include Karl Joseph in that conversation as well as Jonathan Hankins; both have played well for us too. I'd be open to bringing LaFell back too.
I'm not sure Johnny Townsend is with us next season. He's been a horrible punter who cannot seem to get it together. I'm not impressed with Arden Key either.
I think Osemele is gone this offseason, and Feliciano may be his replacement. Going to be another fire sale this offseason for the Raiders, I'm hoping we get a good return on the sale.
Townsend is awful, but Gruden has been overly complimentary, like he was with Whitehead. Based on Gruden's past "not-so-truthful" statements, I can only hope that his admiration means the opposite, and Townsend is gone next year. Sick of seeing 25- to 30-yard punts in critical situations. He is a good placekick holder. That's about it.
Key just needs more coaching and time. He is regularly in the backfield and often gets QB pressure. He needs to be more disciplined and play the edge better. Hopefully, that comes with time. He still has several games to improve this year.
Key also needs better push in the middle. PJ Hall has been a non-factor. Hurst is solid.
My problem with Key is that has been an issue with him even at LSU, can't hold the edge, and over pursues. It is not a hard concept to learn, he is wanting to be the big name, and big playmaker, instead of a team contributor who can make big plays as well as stick to his assignment.
Hall has been quiet, but he hasn't played 100% this season either. I'd like to give him more time. Being from a small school too, it may be more about development at this point as well.
Hurst has been super solid, and I know I wasn't big on him in the draft; but he has made me eat crow. A lot of those who criticized the Raiders for taking him with his heart issues are eating crow too. I wasn't big on him because of his lack of ability to get off double teams. Still a problem somewhat, but an area he has definitely improved on.
Whitehead is an enigma. He leads the Raiders team in Tackles with 53, the second place guy is Marquel Lee who has 27, and Gilchrist is 3rd with 26. 8 of these 53 tackles have been for loss of yards. Yet, he has no sacks, no forced fumbles, and no interceptions. He does have one pass defense against the Rams in Week 1. If you look at his career stats, it is very similar. High stats when it comes to tackles, but low stats on plays where he disrupts. So he has a knack to be around the player with the ball to tackle, but it seems he does not have a knack to see a play develop and cause disruptions. So on the one hand, he is around the ball to make plays and tackle, and on the other hand it is like he doesn't see the play develop to be a true disruption.
The tackle disparity is deceiving. Whitehead has been on the field for almost 100% snaps, far more than any other defender. Not sure about the pass you say he defended against the Rams. That contradicts what I've read in the media, that Whitehead has yielded a perfect passer rating. He was reported to be 0-30 a week ago.
Regardless, if he's that one-dimensional he has no business being on the field for passing downs. I don't think as a coach you can explain that. That's further indicative of the misuse of personnel since Gruden came on board.
His official stats show a pass defended against the Rams, not sure against who, but I'm trying to research it.
Just want to say to everyone Happy Thanksgiving. I have a lot to be thankful for, even though the Raiders aren't doing well. My brother-in-law was sent last weekend to Paradise, CA, to help search and rescue for the fires. Some of the things he told me:
The fires moved about 50 mph
A lady pulled from a car disintegrated into 6 parts
Looked like an atomic bomb was dropped on the city
Numerous people are missing
Archaeologists have been brought in to dig through ashes for human remains
Emergency responders in the city have watched their own homes burn while helping others.
Please pray for this city, and if you can, find a charitable organization to donate to for the disaster there.
Blessings to all of you on this site, even though I have never met any of you personally, we are family through the Nation. JUST WIN, BABY!
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Appreciate the perspective, Nate. Back at ya, NY. Cheers to all of you, love the friendship and civil deabate that y’all bring to this place.
Thank you, RT, for keeping us up and running! It's been a long tough period for the Raiders. 15 years is a long time to grapple with rock bottom, only to find..., well, rock bottom.
Meanwhile, Cooper had 8 receptions for 180 yards and two touchdowns yesterday for the Cowboys. Either he now disappears for several weeks, or it was the Raiders failures all along that caused Cooper to be less than he was capable.
Bears and Cowboys won. If the Raiders can beat the QB-less Ravens on Sunday, we will achieve the draft screw-up trifecta two weeks in a row.
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