Back in Black
Yep, I'm still here, just off to a late start this season. Let's get right to it...
Bottom line: this feels to me like the most professional Raiders team in I don't know how long.
There's been so much weirdness at head coach and general manager (and ownership) since I started this blog, that it's almost disorienting to not see any outright dysfunction.
I didn't like how the whole Gruden thing went down at the end, but it provided us with a most unexpected and unlikely mulligan. Instead of being yoked to Gruden's ridiculous contract and mediocre performance for the next six years, the Raiders got a do-over, and I think they got it right.
We have a coach-GM tandem that makes sense. Things seem way more grown up, operationally speaking. Moving on from Bisaccia as the sentimental Raider favorite was a good sign. The old Raiders probably would have brought him back. Great guy, awesome stopgap, but not the one. The rest of the NFL knows that, look at his current position.
Will it translate? We'll see. It's a tough division, and McDaniels is still unproven. But there's a freshness to the Autumn Wind right now, and I'm loving it.
What say you?
posted by Raider Take at 3:08 PM
53 Comments:
Summer is going but
1. heat waves are still happening. If you feel you want your community to deal with it or help others who may not be as strong to deal with it(kids, handicapped and seniors) you can ask the food banks to sell and give away water and if people would be willing to bike around communities to give to people who are not looking good in a heat wave. You can also donate money so they can buy more bottled water.
2. if you know seniors be watchful for toxins in the bathrooms. If a senior is having issues like dizziness, fainting or being tired check to see if they just came out the bathroom. Chlorine may be one of the problems that can cause problems for seniors.
3. learn about forever chemicals in your home.
4. learn about vaccines and if you need to be careful and the good things about them.
Learn about any problems these vaccines may cause and what good they could do. learn about how to make yourselves
healthier without them but learn what they do and what good they can do also.
Good advice, but how about them Raiders?
RT, you got it right. We have no idea what McDaniels ultimately brings to the Raiders, but the apparent normalcy of how the GM/HC tandem of Ziegler and McDaniels have gone about their business is minty fresh while also strangely unfamiliar to most Raiders fan.
Clearly, the current regime is not hesitant to bring top level talent to the team, whereas past regimes brought in many players on the cheap while thinking they could build thru the draft (a pipe dream for often underwhelming management and scouting). Draft picks that would likely have been spent on more guys like Ferrell, Leatherwood or Arnette went instead to acquire Devante Adams.
The offense under McDaniels looks supercharged in so many ways, and it's only preseason.
Who would have thought it would be so easy to load a roster with so many high-quality RBs, i.e., something the Raiders struggled for many years.
Early signs indicate that previously forgotten play-action and screens will again be part of the Raiders offense. And there's zero chance the Raiders will carry 4 QBs on the initial 53-man roster (who does that?).
Patrick Graham has nowhere to go but up after the Raiders ranked dead last in the NFL in red zone TD rate under Bradley. While there remains more to be seen about the defense, Graham brings a solid resume. Hopefully, he plays his D aggressively.
Mark Davis did it right. Nothing is ever certain in the NFL, but we should all be able to embrace how this was handled and the way the process has and continues to unfold.
Cheers!
Natural immunity is the best. God gave our bodies all we need, jabbing unknown substances into our bodies is not healthy. Just have to look at the stats of this new MNRA so called therapy and the damage it is doing. If you are still 'boosting', you are playing russian roulette.
"Clearly, the current regime is not hesitant to bring top level talent to the team, whereas past regimes brought in many players on the cheap." LOL. Seriously NY? Where is the top level talent at right tackle and guard. Giving Parker 3 million to sit on IR was incredibly wasteful but at least he won't be playing and letting Carr get killed like John Simpson and Lester Cotton will, talk about two guys on the cheap who are bums. Seriously it's bizarre that Ziegler essentially added one new player Pharnham to what was one of the worst o lines in the league. Incredibly negligent. The Raiders have The Talented every other position for a potential playoff run sad that they ignore the offensive line especially when they're sitting on 20 million of cap space. Sandy
Be careful, Sandy. Cranky and pessimistic is no way to start a new season. And there's no need to engage in hyperbole. You make it sound like the Raiders paid Parker $3M after he went on IR.
My opinion regarding O-line is well-documented here.
Funny, you have been one of the biggest supporters of the Raiders young O-line. These guys were handpicked by Gruden/Mayock to replace Trent Brown, Rodney Hudson and Gabe Jackson, all at the same time. What a joke!
That cost the Raiders last season, with their inability to effectively run the ball and protect Derek Carr.
To that point, in your tirade against the new regime, you appear to forget that Gruden/Mayock handcuffed them with this O-line, particularly, Leatherwood. Leatherwood's contract has millions in guaranteed money and a huge cap hit that the Raiders can't avoid if he is cut. Yet, he's so bad, he still might get cut. Nobody wants him in a trade.
It's fair to say you would have been critical if Leatherwood hadn't been given every chance to succeed. But now that he's failed, you're critical they didn't replace him sooner.
Eluemunor will likely start at RT and Munford will probably back him up.
I agree the excessive cap space for this time of year is puzzling. That money needs to be spent, if only to front-load contracts to prepare for next year's cap. (Hopefully, they use some of it to re-sign Waller.)
Parham is a solid prospect. 4th round pick who can play any interior position on the O-line. Raiders are lucky to have him this year.
Have some faith. It's highly likely you won't have to wait another 10 years for results.
NY, you are right I shouldn't start the season cranky. I guess the cap space is being saved for Waller. Hopefully Adams and Renfro get open real early so Carr doesn't have to hold the ball. Sandy
As we speak, a deal for Waller looks like it might be in the works. Cue the Brinks truck.
I think we all need to take a deep breath. Being a Raiders fan is not easy. Mark Davis took a huge chance and went against what was probably the popular choice to keep Bisaccia. He deserves our Kudos.
Whatever we think of Gruden (and we probably don't agree on that), I think we can agree that Josh McDaniels is one of the best offensive coordinators in the NFL. He has been for at least a few years.
In his second stint as HC, he appears to have taken a much humbler approach. To his credit, he's much smarter, more mature, has probably assembled a better staff, and looks ready to lead. He's very articulate during press conferences and appears to have full command on the sideline.
If he's for real, we could not ask for anything more. But we may need to allow a little breathing room to get everything in its proper place.
I definitely like what I see so far.
Leatherwood, because of his contract, may be going to Left Guard. He was a Left Tackle in college, and moving to right, he has had to re-learn the position. I don't think he has failed, I think it is a difficult transition that he never caught on to, and struggled learning. That is a move only a few have successfully made (Donald Penn), but is a difficult move to transition to.
I love the veracity of Elumenor, and I don't think Simpson is bad, I think he has to learn a new system. The one thing I know for sure, Ziegs and McD know what they have, and know what they can get out of this group. I also think they are not done, but are patient. They are not going to break the bank for anyone. They want the right pieces that are going to be there for the long haul. Waller is next, then they will address the O-line.
Nate, Leatherwood started the preseason at LT and he sucked there too.
I read that he played several O-line positions in college, including RT. So I don't think I'd give him the Donald Penn exemption for switching positions. Plus, as a backup T wouldn't he be expected to be a swing T?
Truth is, Leatherwood wasn't just bad during preseason, he failed to hold blocks on 2nd and 3rd teamers. If he wasn't drafted in 2021 and carrying a large cap hit, he'd already be cut. Period. There's no O-line position which he excels.
I would add, IMO, Cable did not help matters. Cable helped to quietly sabotage the Raiders offensive line (much like he did in Seattle). He was largely responsible to oversee the transition from high-quality vets to young players but failed to adequately coach them up. No easy task, granted, but that's the position the Raiders (Gruden) put Cable and the team in.
Media have reported the Raiders are desperately trying to trade him, and there's been no denial from the Raiders.
Ferrell
Arnette
Ruggs
Leatherwood
Abram
On some level, each of these 1st round draft picks have slowed the Raiders progress. That's a lot of misses.
Abram might not deserve being listed here, however his coverage skills are subpar for starting safety. He could easily end up being a rotational player because of that.
Leatherwood is a big hurdle for the Ziegler and McDaniels right now.
Hold the phone! Mullen was just traded to Cardinals for a conditional 7th round draft pick.
That's stunning. Mullen was solid his rookie season and seemed to be in line for a significant role with the new regime. For some reason, Mullen did not live up to expectations. A second round pick traded for a conditional 7th rounder. Crazy!
Geez! Do we now add Mullen to the long list of wasted top draft picks under Gruden/Mayock?
I'm shocked at this move. I hope the Raiders don't regret it.
Trading Mullen makes no sense to me are you going to tell me there's four corners on the team better than him. A 7th round pick for a 3-year starter seems like a very bad trade. Unless this is to clear space and make other moves why not keep him let him play a few games and get his value up. Sandy
The news keeps coming.
Raiders release Leatherwood and take the cap hit. Parker is on IR for the year, so how bad is Leatherwood for that to happen? Epic!
A media quote:
"It would be difficult to overstate just how poorly Mike Mayock's draft picks turned out for the Las Vegas Raiders during his three years with the team."
Not sure I would lay all that sh*t at Mayock's feet.
Just to put a finer point on this, the Raiders were in prime position to build a roster during Gruden's first 2-3 years, particularly after trading Mack and Cooper.
Here's a media summary of the most consequential draft picks during that period.
"None of the Raiders' three first-round picks from 2020-21 (WR Henry Ruggs III, CB Damon Arnette, Leatherwood) remain with the team, and none of the Raiders' three first-rounders from 2019 (DE Clelin Ferrell, RB Josh Jacobs, SS Johnathan Abram) had their fifth-year options picks up by the new regime this offseason."
NY, Must you insist in gloating and rubbing this shit in. We all aware. Why do you need to post the same things ovr and over again. Its like you are fucking happy about it
Sandy
Leatherwood getting cut and the Raiders taking a $14 million+ hit to cut him says a lot! These guys are wanting to win now! Trading Mullen tells me they have all the confidence in Nate Hobbs. I hope they go find a RT to sign, and soon. This is huge!
RT, you are right, there is something "minty" in the air in this organization that has not been here in a long while; and yet, there is still a mystique about the Raiders, what their next move will be. I'm excited for this season. JUST WIN, BABY!
Sandy, just the opposite. Trust me, I find no gratification in the Raiders failures.
And it's not being repeated, per se, it's news as it happens. Hot off the press!
You're obviously upset because what I've been suggesting to you has come to fruition. Gruden is clearly not the genius you thought he was... and that hurt all of us, not just you and others that believed in him.
Some of these things are only now being revealed by more competent management and coaching. It's really stunning how deep rooted it was.
That said, I'm prepared to criticize the current regime if they don't get this right.
1. They should have seen this coming and addressed the RT position sooner.
2. They better have a plan for Mullen's replacement. He had a stellar rookie season.
IMO, Graham runs a better zone defense than we're used to. I think Mullen is more of a press corner and excels more in man coverage. That's valuable but he may have struggled in zone (IDK). Also, his absence with an injury was critical. Raiders are all-in with the players they have, plus whoever Ziegler can pull from waivers that can help the team immediately.
Stay the course.
Vegas, Baby!
Again, who built most of this roster that looks poised to do big things this year?
Did Mullen ever fully recover from his foot problems? If not, could be the reason for such low value. He will have to pass the physical for the trade to go through.
Gruden raised the bar from when he took over the team, the team has very good chemistry and some very good pieces and the team was one play away from defeating the super bowl Bengals.
Why Raider fans want to belittle Gruden is perplexing. He helped elevate the team that is poised today. We should be thankful, not pissing on his grave.
If Gruden and Mayock had done better with those high picks, this team would be a high favorite to go to the super bowl this year. Raiders are still in the picture, but this team would be dominating if they had hit on those picks.
Leatherwood was never a fit, maybe a new team will put him back on the left side of the line and he might be serviceable. It's a shame, but it's something that is being dealt with instead of hanging around like a bad smell.
The new GM made some good choices with the UDFA signings this year, some good young prospects to bring along.
P.S. I was not happy that the Raiders (Ziegler and McDaniels) let both Casey Heyward and Facyson get away. They were both reliable CBs. Raiders need a reliable CB group to make this right. IDK what other cuts were made but I can't imagine keeping Amik Robertson over Mullen. Did that happen?
Mullen was solid I can not believe they gave him up for a 7th rounder. No way guys like Webb and Robertson are better than him probably not Averett either.
3 qbs, 5 safties and 6 running backs, 11 d lineman make the team. I can only assume there are some moves to come those numbers seem loco
Sandy
Anon -
You may want to take another look at the roster. That's what we're here talking about. Leatherwood and Mullen are just the latest examples of wasted draft capital.
Who built the roster? Here's a breakdown of Gruden players by position:
QB - None! Gruden, a QB expert, leaves no QBs he groomed during his 4 years.
RB - Jacobs is the only Gruden RB, and he's on the bubble next year due to salary.
WR - Only Hunter Renfrow from Gruden. All other WRs by Ziegler/McDaniels
OL - Miller is the only sure thing. Clearly, OL has been the area of most concern.
TE - Plucking Waller off the Ravens practice squad deserves major kudos.
Edge - Madd Maxx Crosby - what can you say, he's worth three players. Koonce is unproven.
DT - Hankins played for Patrick Graham in NY
LB - Perryman is a stud. Deablo is raw but worthy (a work in progress).
S - Abram is subpar but Moehrig was solid last year.
CB - Hobbs is the only worthy CB during the Gruden era.
I count like 8 solid players that I would give Gruden/Mayock full credit. Maybe 9 if you want to be generous. I'm sure Ziegler and McDaniels would have done more if they could.
Drafting Renfrow, Crosby, Miller and Hobbs and stealing Waller from the Ravens were all great accomplishments for Gruden/Mayock but, taken as a whole over 4 years (4 off-seasons, 4 drafts...), not exactly a glowing resume for either Gruden or Mayock in their next jobs. With Mayock's draft history, I doubt a sports network would hire him again as a draft analyst.
Please go back and look at the 53-man roster.
Don't be the guy who starts a fire then demands credit for helping to put it out.
you forgot to mention 2 pro bowl players, the kickers. And most of the depth. The whole offensive line is Gruden's, so let's wait till the season starts before you anoint them a disaster.
If the O-line plays well, it will be another plus from Gruden. Gruden helped the team get to today, give him some credit as well as the hate. If the O-line plays well and with the kickers that would be more like 15 good players that Gruden set up for McDaniel.
If Gruden was allowed to be the HC this year, hard to say what rosters moves he would of made.
Hard to see Raider fans spewing hatred for a guy who helped the team to where it is today after a couple of decades of failure. Who does that?
Seems like NY is itching for an argument, he seems to think it creates convo, when in actuality, it creates a dislike for visiting the site. If your goal is to keep people away from commenting, you are doing a bang up job.
Heyward wasn't a fit for the scheme, Facyson was avg at best, no big deal. Raiders could use 1 more good CB, in a cap world, it's hard to have a stacked roster, there will be some weaknesses.
I overlooked that Kolton Miller was drafted by McKenzie. Gruden had just been hired and it was most likely McKenzie's scouts that spotted Miller at Hillsdale College. McKenzie also drafted Derek Carr. Where's the love for McKenzie?
And this went unmentioned, Gruden wasted 3rd and 5th round picks to acquire Antonio Brown. Did we forget that disaster? Brown never played a single snap for the Raiders. And when Gruden did use a third-round pick, he selected Lynn Bowden, who also never played a snap for the Raiders. That's a lot of draft capital for just those two guys.
I imagine there are a lot of Raiders fans, like myself, who thought the Raiders would get more than they did after trading Mack and Cooper for a Pirate's bounty of draft picks. That clearly wasn't the case, and it's been disappointing, to say the least.
My case - and it's a good one - is that Gruden hurt the Raiders as much as he helped them. Clearly, both things are true.
Listen if you want to prop up Gruden for all his great accomplishments, that's your prerogative. Hopefully, you have more than general statements to support it.
Kolton Miller is not the only bright spot on the Raiders' O-line. He is by far the one who stands out the most, but Andre James at Center is getting better and better; and looked good in the pre-season. Elumenor is also a decent lineman. He is tough and gritty and is a work horse. McD loves his work ethic. I loved watching him last year before he got injured. He is going to do good things.
I think Leatherwood's issue is the same as most 'Bama players coming out of college, they feel entitled, and become lazy. They rely on talent and not film. Film is how you improve in the NFL, not talent.
I don't think they are done with the roster, and I hope they are going after O-line help. We will see. Even if they don't, I'm looking forward to this season. JUST WIN, BABY!
General statements? Like the ones you make daily?
Bottom line is, Gruden left the team in a better place than when he inherited it. So for that alone, we should be giving him credit. Yes, we all know the blunders and hindsight is always great. And making out like I am propping him up for all of his great accomplishments, shows you are not being truthful in your statements.
If you cannot be genuine in your comments and just want to piss somebody off, shows what you are made of, good luck with that.
Friend, I'm not intentionally trying to be argumentative, nor am I attacking you personally. At least one of us can say that. You're trying to shame me with "I'm a horrible person if I criticize Gruden" nonsense instead of saying what it is that you believe Gruden did for the Raiders.
Is it fair to say you are only referring to personnel improvements? Because scheme now belongs to McDaniels.
We can review Gruden draft picks in a kind of "where are they now" theme. That would be interesting.
Listen, the Raiders' head coaching job doesn't exist in a vacuum. If Gruden was never hired by Mark Davis, are you suggesting that nobody in the NFL could have yielded equal or better results over the past four years?
Okay, let's look at it another way, not yet discussed.
Gruden's biggest personnel accomplishments include Crosby and Renfrow. I think we could probably agree on that. Right?
When Gruden took over the Raiders, he was given Mack and Cooper, both of whom he traded, so Crosby and Renfrow became their replacements. That's a wash if we're being fair to Reggie McKenzie. Honestly, Gruden left the team with as many holes as additions. The recent cuts further prove that to be true.
Again, I think it's a fair question to ask; what did Gruden do that any competent HC and defacto GM could not do? Even bad coaches can fail upward. See Jack Del Rio.
Unfortunately, the stats about Gruden's accomplishments are one-sided. That's not your fault. Clearly, that falls on Gruden.
You being a horrible person, has nothing to do with Gruden or the Raiders. You twist and you subvert points made and that destroys any credibility you may have.
I told you 10 times now, what I believe Gruden did for the Raiders. You just won't acknowledge it as well as declaring that I have stated that Gruden is a genius and all the rest of it.
You can look at picks from every team and go, where are they now.
I don't want to try and imagine what other coaches would have done, not into what if's. I know what Gruden has done, for the 11th time, Gruden moved the team forward and set it up for success today. That has been the message from the start, but you want to twist into something else and then claim that this is what others are doing. Round and round you go. Shows you are not sincere and only want to create arguments because as you say, it's more fun that way. I see it as childish and unattractive as far as attracting new members here.
Jack Del Rio failed upward for one season, after that he was a disaster. Carr was mostly the reason for the success Del Rio had, he is not a HC.
Spitting on a Raider who helped move the team forward is not acceptable, it doesn't make you smarter, it just shows your character.
The main stat for Gruden was last year, the team was much improved and was one play away from beating a super bowl team in their own backyard. Period. Full stop.
Hi Anon. I completely agree with your post. The team made the playoffs because of what Gruden built.
Sandy
McDaniel's press conference today, he was asked about the players left over from Gruden. Might want to listen to it, he gives Gruden props for all the good players and high character players left behind for McDaniel's to inherit.
BTW NY Kolton Miller went to UCLA I think you're remembering Jared Valdheer who went to Hillsdale. Sandy
Sandy, thank you for that correction. My bad. I actually meant to delete the reference to college... as the point is the same regardless. Likely a McKenzie pick. Good memory... it was Valdheer who went to Hillsdale.
Anon, no need for more personal attacks. I plan to listen to the presser later. Honestly, though, what do you expect McDaniels to say? He couldn't say anything else. He has to remain diplomatic. Doesn't make it true.
The crux of the Gruden argument often falls to, "what if Gruden had done (fill-in-the-blank) instead..."
Maybe it boils down to, if Gruden was as good as some folks think he was and made as much improvement as some folks think he did, then he or Rich Bisaccia might still be coaching the Raiders. If they were "one play away from beating the Bengals," then why did Mark Davis disrupt that by hiring Josh McDaniels?
That's a fair question.
I'm gonna take the bait here for a minute. Gruden and Mayock made a roster that made the playoffs last year. McKenzie made a roster that made the playoffs in 2016, a roster that made significant payroll cuts, and brought in new blood. Gruden came in, first year with McKenzie; and Gruden slashed the #1 O-line in the League for the previous 3 years; traded away the best defensive player in the League at the time, pushed aside the likes of Crabtree, Marquette King, and traded away a young, inconsistant WR in Cooper. In return, drafted Clelin Ferrell, Josh Jacobs, and Jonathan Abram. Later, he and Mayock drafted Miller and Crosby. They picked up vets too, but continued to slash the O-line by trading away Gabe Jackson, Rodney Hudson, and Keleche Osemele. Now remember, when Gruden came as HC, the only missing piece of the O-line was what? Anyone? The need for a RT. An "alleged" Offensive Genius dismantles one of the most potent offenses and offensive lines in the League when he took over. That put the Raiders behind the 8 ball again, for another 4 years, unnecessarily.
McDaniels and Ziegler were hired with the expectation to build and succeed on what was already here. I think they are doing a great job. That doesn't mean they can't move pieces around, but they weren't going to destroy the foundation like Gruden did. Mark Davis even acknowledges that is what Gruden did; he destroyed the foundation that McKenzie laid, which is why McKenzie left. McDaniels and Ziegler didn't want to leave the Patriots for a team that needed rebuilding either, they were waiting for the right team to have immediate success because the Doncos left a bad taste in McDaniels' mouth (and rightfully so). The Raiders are that opportunity for them. I don't think they will screw this up like Gruden did. Yes, Gruden did some good. Yes, Gruden laid the foundation for the new regime to have success; but let's not forget, Gruden destroyed a successful foundation that McKenzie laid. Gruden was not successful for the Raiders. He wasn't as sharp as he used to be, but 10+ years out of the league will do that to someone, just ask Art Shell. McDaniels and Ziegler have been right in the thick of success, and knows how to help this team improve, and if you watched any of the pre-season, you see vast differences in how both sides of the ball operate. This is why I'm excited for this season, even with positional questions. Mark Davis has done something different to improve an ongoing problem. He has changed his solution instead of doing the same ol' thing. Mark Davis has made his first team, and to me, is now the rightful owner of the Raiders. He is going to make a name for himself with this; and in the process, honor his dad. JUST WIN, BABY!
I have to say, my position on Gruden and his achievements as Raiders HC is not exactly on an island by itself. Here's something just posted on SBNation: Winners and Losers from Raiders Final Roster Cuts.
LOSERS: Mike Mayock and John Gruden
"While the roster was good enough for new head coach Josh McDaniels and general manager Dave Ziegler to take the jobs, clearly, they don’t think too highly of the work their predecessors put forth.
Just between Alex Leatherwood and Kenyan Drake, the Raiders will be taking on about $11.5 million in dead cap space, per OverTheCap.com, this season. That’s a ton of money to give guys just to go away, and perhaps the bigger indictment on Gruden and Mayock is that McDaniels and Zielger weren’t able to find trade partners for either of the two players. In a way, that shows just how bad the rest of the league viewed those contract situations.
Also, it’s very realistic that Tre’von Moehrig will be the only first- or second-round pick on the roster next season from [Gruden/Mayock’s] three draft classes together. Not exactly a resume booster for a couple of guys who are looking for jobs right now."
Don't shoot the messenger... This is what's going around the media right now, and most of the comments agree. Not a lot of Gruden apologists out there in the marketplace.
Here's the full article to cut and paste. It's not a one-off opinion. It's spreading like wildfire.
https://www.silverandblackpride.com/2022/8/31/23329713/raiders-final-roster-winners-losers
Ahhhh, Gruden couldn't coach the team anymore because he was kicked out of the league? Ring any bells?
Well, if the Raiders do well this year, then yes, it will be true.
The crux of the Gruden argument is what did he do for the Raiders. Answer, he left the team in better shape then what he inherited, simple.
That article is already wrong, Leatherwood was claimed by the Bears, Raiders off the hook for most of his salary. If it is on S&B pride, it must be true? Haven't you learned that the media is full of BS, yet? Using media as proof, is so in the past.
Your constant promotion of that site is dubious at best. I would have a strong suspicion that somehow you are involved in that site?
Can't you come up with your own arguments and use your own research to come to conclusions? Or does the media have to tell you everything?
Stop using general statements from other sources to supposedly strengthen your argument, it doesn't help you, it hurts you.
Nate, you need to be accurate. The O-line was dismantled because it was getting old and expensive. Their last year together, they were near the bottom of the league. And what have those players done since leaving the Raiders? They have declined in a big way. The myth that it was such a great O-line is just that, a myth. It wasn't ranked #1 for 3 years, that is fake news.
Gruden redid the team because the team sucked, remember? After that Monday Night debacle in D.C., the team was toast, remember? All those players that Gruden let go and replaced, what have they done? How bout a big ZERO? Most of them aren't in the league anymore. To pretend that Reg had built a playoff team is not true. That 1 year they went to the playoffs, was mostly on Carr, the team fell apart after that.
McKenzie did not leave a successful foundation, what is with trying to rewrite history?
Gruden built the foundation that the new regime is building around it, pretty obvious to see that. But no one wants to give Gruden credit for that, except for McDaniel himself.
Using the preseason to tell us that the new regime is already much better than the last one, maybe we should wait until they play a real game first?
Anon, NY, Nate
I think we can all agree on the following. When they traded for Adams I thought they could go deep in the playoffs as long as they address the o-line. Here we are a week away and the starters on the right side are Cotton and Eluemunor. I am sorry this is freaking me out, I can't believe that is how we are going into the season none of you would have predicted those two at the start of the season. Nate you got it right aside from 12 games of Trent the Raiders have not had a good RT since Lincoln. Just blows my mind how the right side of the line has not been addresed
Sandy
IMO, there just isn't enough good ones to go around. I was watching the RT for the Patriots, Wynne I think. He was horrible, just as bad if not worse than Leatherwood and he is their starter.
Coaches see these guys in practice and scrimmage, again, they will need time to gel, Left side and C seem to be fairly solid, might have to coach around the Right side until it solidifies. RT has become just as important as the LT position, not enough of them to go around.
Anon you know your stuff-whats your name? You are correct offensive line is the thinest position in the NFL especially tackle. There is not a team in the NFL that have 5 quality starters and backups forget about it.
That is why I am little surprised they cut Leatherwood, yes he looked awful in preseason. But why not take at least another year to see if they could develop him. I have a hard time believing guys like Cotton, Simpson, Barton and even Eluemunor is a journey man at this point in his career. Want they did not sign a guy like Morgan Moses 5 mil a year is beyond me.
Sandy
Raiders are bringing in Joe Haeg, a versatile OL cut from the Steelers. He has mostly played tackle in his career, has 40 out of 79 possible starts, is 6'6", 300 lbs. According to PFF, he has allowed 3 sacks in 307 snaps played, and 1 penalty.
Great a guy who gives up almost a sack a game just what we need
Steelers O-line is a complete mess. If they are tossing their garbage, it has to be hot garbage. More depth until Parker comes back is my guess.
Parker is gone for the year. There is really no plan for the right side. Think just two weeks ago the starters were projected to be Good and Parker. Not exactly Shell and Upshaw. Now we are on to Plan B which is Cotton and Eluiemour that is rather scary. If someone gets injured God forbid what the hell is plan C
Sandy
All 3 have not come close to what Al did in just the last 4 years of his regime('08-'11).
Gruden didn't leave any QBs? Because the Pats guys got rid of Mariotta! I love Carr but Mariotta could've lit things up! It was the Pat guys decisions to let Gruden's QBs' go and either didn't think they were that good or just didn't want them.
Gruden left a 'mess'? Is that true NY? I thought Al left the 'mess' and ANYBODY taking over the team would be better at rebuilding the team?
Anon, Reggie did what? Reggie got rid of a ton of good players all because the NFL/ owners were pissed with Al and saw the chance to get revenge AND-, bring in new staff to the team. I just don't see what units got better after Reggie took over the Raiders. Carr is solid but Palmer IS the best QB since '12-present.
NY Raider, As for CBs' excuse me?! Mullen was the best CB on the team! The Pats' guys moves have to be judged later but wow! Why not keep Mullen to see if he could make a comeback? They have a lot of guys but only 1 real proven starter(Yon Sin).
Also, Reggie's era was that great NY? Really?
1. the worst secondaries in team history.
2. mediocre D-line units despite 3 outstanding pass rushers(Mack, Irvin and ).
3. bad roster moves- Reggie let some very good players walk S. Harris DT(Broncos), D. Bryant DT(Al's era, Browns), Demontre Moore DE and D. Bass(drafted but released, Titans)).
1. Drafted Carr, Mack, G. Jackson, T. Bergstrom and K. Miller.
2. signed C-Wood and B. Irvin.
NY Raider, Gruden's era was that bad? Wow! You thought Gruden was the great for the Raiders. The NFL wouldn't let him do what he wanted which would've been a lot that Al taught him. He was sent here for image not to bring Raiders back to glory.
1. he didn't make those picks.
2. he couldn't spend on star free agents
3. he couldn't bring in ANY ex-Al employees that were close to Al.
*The Pats guys are FINALLY building leading the Raiders in the right direction?:
You said that 2 times!- what direction was Reggie and Gruden leading them?
FOA...the Pats guys have done well building a good team! They were a little free'er with the money but they also did things just to build an image. Keeping Carr over Mariotta wasn't a bad move but Mariotta may've been able to light this team up. Then, to do what Al might've done and trade for WRs' with high draft picks this time because it would get Raidernation pumped looks a little too much. Why not just sign an expensive FA WR and keep your high picks?
Al's Raiders had the DBs', special teams, run game and pass rush to win but didn't. fans felt he didn't have the staff or talent. Reggie made many of the units mediocre or worse- he did build an outstanding O-line, found good UDFAs and drafted some good players. Gruden added more players and built a strong special teams but he/ Mayock also made bad draft picks and didn't get help for Crosby. He ruined a lot of draft picks by trading for guys(WRs') who messed up but went to other teams. He didn't make all his units a top 1(except the kickers) but he did bring a good player/ players to them.
The Pats' guys need time to show who they are. Raidernation has gone NFL and forgot chances Al would take to build a winner.
The Pats guys took some chances but did it for image too when they traded for Adams. They also want to use lots of RBs and DBs' instead of looking for a star player. Maybe the Pats guys can build a winner but they could also use some of Al's ideas.
It was a 9 year rebuild that I never heard even some of the worst teams EVER had to do. A guy(Al) who was an icon and helped build a contender in the 00's suddenly doesn't know modern football anymore?
Can't blame the current regime for Mariota wanting to start. They picked Carr because he's better. Teams can't pay a backup starter money. That's a waste of resources.
I'm as shocked as anyone about Mullen being traded. Listen, I'm not giving anyone a free pass, Gruden or McDaniels. It has to work. That said, like every HC before him, McDaniels will get a honeymoon period... but does he need it? We shall see.
Regarding McKenzie then Gruden eras, of course both those guys were brought in with high hopes. Unfortunately, both failed. Results don't lie.
Statistically, Gruden's team last year was a mess. Without even looking it up, I can say (and anyone is welcome to prove me wrong) the Raiders stats will show...
- Raiders were worst ranked team in the NFL in red zone defense, giving up 80% or more TD rate.
- Raiders gave up a whopping 40+ sacks as well as below average QB pressure rate.
- Raiders running game was terrible and had no depth. Drake was underwhelming at best, and there was no depth behind him.
- The offensive line carried at least 2-3 starters that bottomed out the league in PFF rankings. With Parker on IR and Leatherwood gone, the Raiders gain by attrition.
- Raiders were again among the worst teams in the league in penalties. No discipline = bad coaching!
The point about Mariota aside, Gruden failed to develop a young QB in his four years with the Raiders. That's pretty astounding for a guy who spent the previous 10 years pretending to be a QB expert on TV.
And where are all the WRs Gruden developed? Renfrow came to the Raiders with his mad skills. Improvising is what Renfrow excels, and he brought that skill with him.
The Raiders had 6 walk-off wins last year. If not for the ice running through Derek Carr's veins in those situations, those could have been 3-4 losses, making the Raiders double-digit losers, again. However, that didn't happen, IMO, again in large part because of the inspirational leadership of Rich Bisaccia.
When Gruden left the Raiders in 2021, they were 3-2, or just above .500. That's where Gruden's HC career stands. He was an average coach and his career record proves that.
During his 3+ years with the Raiders, Gruden managed a record of 22-31 (.415). For that, Mark Davis paid Gruden over $30,000,000. That's by definition, a failure. The buck stops at the top. Mark Davis was given a mulligan and he went way out on that limb and hired the dynamic duo now in place. That's where the story stands... to be continued.
The NFL is all about results. Folks can believe Gruden was close to making something happen, but they can't prove it with results, stats or anything concrete. Only conjecture.
Unfortunately, the bar is low for some folks, probably because the Raiders have failed for so long, just reaching mediocrity was uplifting for some.
I get that but it shouldn't be good enough. It reeks too much like a participation trophy.
Go Raiders! Vegas, Baby!
Gruden developed Renfrow, Waller and Jacobs. Andre James, Kolton, Perryman was a brilliant find. Crosby etc. NY complains when team makes playoffs lol
Some of those players might not be with the team next year. The Raiders refused to exercise Jacobs' 5th year option and have otherwise built a RB room that looks as good as any in the league. I'm a big Perryman fan but the Raiders haven't renewed him either. Andre James might end up being a stopgap. Not sure current regime is completely sold on him. Parnham also plays center and only lacks a little NFL experience.
As I said, the bar is very low when it comes to Gruden and the incremental improvement that he presided over. Gruden was paid elite HC salary over unprecedented time period. This would have been Year 5 of that contract, yet we just witnessed a pretty thorough dismantling of Gruden's body of work (roster) by a new regime.
Here's a question to ponder: Which HC/GM tandem would you rather have leading the Raiders right now, Gruden/Mayock or McDaniels/Ziegler?
Can you answer that question honestly?
Is that a trick question? The new regime hasn't even played 1 real game yet. Talk about jumping to conclusions. How bout this, let it play out a little 1st before declaring yourself as a genius.
Gruden set up the new regime with a good foundation/core, why is that so hard for you to admit?
You say McDaniel only said it ( good core with very good character) because he didn't want to offend anyone. Do you really think that is true, or is it another deflection to fit your narrative? Statements like that do a man's credibility no good.
Again, if the team does well, how much credit will Gruden get for setting up the new regime with a good core?
Some of those players might be on the team next year, James could turn out to be a very good C. Every team makes more than 1 or 2 roster changes each season, nature of the beast.
What if's and maybe's don't mean anything today. Deal with today, what if a solar flare hits earth?
Your opinion on the matter is not a "what if." Opinions don't have to involve right or wrong, they're just opinion.
This would be Year 5 for Gruden. Don't you think 5 years is inordinately long to rebuild a team? Especially for an elite HC. We can look at Sean Peyton, Andy Reid and a bunch of others who did it in one year.
This thread began with a well-written opinion by Raider Take in which he aptly describes Gruden's departure as a "mulligan" for Mark Davis and the Raiders. That's exactly what it was.
Personally, I'm thankful to Gruden for making it easy by resigning and to Mark Davis for hiring Josh McDaniels instead of going with Bisaccia (who everybody loves). By doing so, Davis gave the Raiders a real chance to get to the next level. McDaniels appears to have the maturity and chops. While he deserves a one-year honeymoon (like most coaches get - Gruden got four years), he might surprise us in Year 1.
Cheers!
Russell Wilson signed 7-year deal with Broncos.
Suffice to say, the AFCW isn't getting easier any time soon. On paper, Carr is probably at the bottom of the division, except for one notable stat... walk-off wins! I believe Carr (who had 6 walk-offs last year) is best in the league since his arrival. If not best, damn close.
Those are usually the games which the team to possess the ball last wins.
It's gonna be a dogfight!
To Raiderstake, part I
Act like a $B company?: Yea, over charge the fan base for season tickets, show little loyalty to employees, pay players as cheaply as possible, forcing cities to give public money even when owners are paying for most of the new stadiums. Yea, that sounds like a billion dollar company.
Dysfunction?: FOA, I thought Al was the source of any dysfunction and ANY modern NFL exec could build a winning team? I don't remember dysfunction from Reggie's era, Maybe a little from Gruden's/ Mayock's. But Al's era was full of it and it didn't stop him before this slump! When did people leaving or dysfunction ever keep the Raiders from coming back later and winnng? Media/ fans seem to think Al's dysfunction was still around during Reggie's era, but Reggie got rid of almost All of Al's era.
MD shrewd moves?: FOA...what did he do? He hired Reggie who did what? fired an 8-8 coach/ OC, hired an inexperience HC so you had an inexperienced owner, GM and HC. He agreed to move to L.V.? You are wealthier, have a new stadium but:
1. you are in debt.
2. you haven't spend on star FA yet
3. you have priced many LOYAL fans out of games.
4. the relationship between players-ownership is
get rid of the(old) Raider Way? sentiment, loyalty? : Oh, you think MD, Reggie and Gruden used the 'Raider Way'? No Raidertake, Al's era left with him/ his staff:
1. Al tried to make sure the prices were affordable. And parking too.
2. He tried to make sure the Raider were connected with the fan base. He tried to make sure his PR team communicated with fans.
You should show loyalty- That's what Raidernation is all about. No matter the record or city. But now we cheer for the team and not what Al stood for. We support the Patriot, Packer, Buc, 49ers and NFL ways were money 1st and stadiums, not football.
The NFL/ owners don't show a lot of sentiment. They have a mediocre product they then over-charge for season tickets and luxury boxes; And sometimes threaten cities to help them build new stadiums.
The NFL/ owners/ Reggie didn't have ANY sentiment for Al's culture they ejected it in '12. Al and a few other owners had sentiment for players/ fans these new owners- not a lot of it.
So, IOW you want to be like other NFL fans? Its' all business just big stadiums and entertainment before/ halftime of games and buy buy buy merchandise? Is that what you call NFL football?
Al hired bad coaches?:
1. N. Turner/ if he was a bad pick he worked hard in S.D. He sure kicked our butts there.
2. H. Jackson/ maybe the best Raiders' OC '03-present. I think he's a good HC and helped team go 8-8 twice. He's well respected except by fans/ media. The Cleveland gig was Browns'(management) ruining their season then blaming the HC who had NOTHING to do with it. He's now a college HC.
3. L. Kiffin/ 1 of the best OCs' in college football- has it all but wasn't ready and was very immature. Doing o.k. in college and 1 day may be a good college HC- Maybe 1 day he'll be a very good NFL HC.
4. J. Del Rio/ Wow Raidernation! Just Win? Really?! Way to go fans! A guy leads you to the playoffs and what do you do? Shout "Gruden, Gruden, Gruden, Gruden!" Oh, Del Rio was o.k. but Gruden can build a contender! Thanks for everything coach(Del Rio) but we want Gruden!
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