Chiefs Gameday Thread / Lost Season Edition
Another lost season. How many of these have I seen since starting this blog in 2005?
That said, I think I see some rays of sunlight peeking through the clouds.
There's been one constant in all of this, and that's ownership. It pains me to say it, because I like Mark Davis, he's a Raider and a renegade.
But there's more than enough evidence to conclude that this isn't a well-run organization. When you look around at the teams that are perpetually in chaos, grasping at straws and mired in poor culture, it always starts at the top. Jets, Browns, Commanders, Colts, Lions, Raiders...
I'm sad to see Derek Carr go, but I don't mind a fresh start at QB either. It is what it is, and it was probably time if McDaniels and Co. had lost faith in him, since McDaniels and Co. apparently aren't going anywhere.
Today, we get another look at Stidham, and hope to see the team finish out on strong note. It's all we can ask at this point, after another lost season. GO RAIDERS!
posted by Raider Take at 9:01 AM
235 Comments:
Well said, RT. It can't be merely coincidence the Raiders have been so bad for so long. There must be elements at work to make that happen, and it only happens to the worst organizations. Perhaps the simple explanation regarding the Raiders - early on - was that Al worked too long in his life and had no plan in place for his ultimate departure. Clearly, we are well past that.
Fast forward, Carr is not to blame for 2022, nor is he without fault. I've been here defending Carr since he was drafted. Be that as it may, he's regressed under McDaniels guidance, arguably resulting in his worst season as a pro. Maybe not statistically, but we've all seen the games which Carr repeatedly failed to perform in critical situations. Honestly, he was living on that ledge last season but most of the same type games were wins.
I don't view Stidham as his replacement, but I do see Stidham as a potential safety net should the Raiders fail to secure the right replacement, e.g., Brady, Grappolo, etc.
Today's game may speak more to whether or not that would be viable.
For me, the importance of today's game is to go out with a feel-good effort by Stidham and the offense. While a win hurts the Raiders draft seeding, another moral victory like the 9ers game might be nice. The Raiders defense is a mess and we're used to seeing them blow leads, so the Chiefs squeaking one out in a high-scoring shoot-out game at the expense of the Raiders D might feel normal and still leave us with a warm and fuzzy feeling.
In the end, having the #6 seed (best case) in the draft instead of #11 (worst case) is going to be a lot more important than winning this game. That said, I'd be perfectly okay with the Raiders steamrolling the Chiefs in a blowout. Let Zeigler figure out the draft on his own.
Go Raiders!
just more bullshit. the worst part of it is seeing all the red in the stands, Raiders will never have a true home field advantage in Vegas. Longing for the days of Oakland.
I guess Carr wasn't the problem dumbass McDaniels and Davis. Is this the preview of what we can expect for the next few years. Sandy
Take...Mark Davis is a Raider & a renegade ? Well, I suppose he is a Raider by virtue of his bloodline, but a renegade ? What has Mark Davis ever done to be considered a renegade ?
He did not fight for the L.A. market, instead gave it up and moved to Vegas. He hires former Raiders, Mckenzie, Gruden, from his daddy's era. Nothing original there. He buys WNBA Aces, I guess because his daddy liked women's basketball.
Mark Davis has firmly placed himself in his fathers shadow, and has yet to do anything to emerge from it. He even walks around in his own version of white Raiders clothing. Wait, didn't Al already do that too ?
There is absolutely nothing fresh, new, or original about Mark Davis. He is a sad imitation of his great father, and nothing more.
Hey, let's put a hat on his head and call him Tom Landry. Give him some thick eyeglasses and he can be Lombardi. Mark Davis is Al Davis' spoiled son, who doesn't know what the hell he is doing.
Nothing like a demoralizing loss to end the season. Chiefs just beat the Raiders with one hand tied behind their back. The rotating huddle and flea flicker TD says it all. Although that TD was called back, they had another TD in their back pocket.
Andy Reid and the Chiefs own the Raiders. Hard to see that changing anytime soon. Raiders were overmatched, outcoached and outplayed.
Sadly, the best game the Raiders played this season might have been the loss last week.
Hey, Ghost Ship, I think that's a fair take, and it might explain why the org is poorly run. Maybe he's just a wannabe who isn't up to the task. By renegade, I meant he's different and weird and mercurial, which to me is sort of refreshing in the increasingly corporate billionaire's club that is the NFL. That said, weird and mercurial are much more laudable when they're accompanied by competence.
Mark Davis moved the Raiders to Vegas. Plenty of reasons to dislike the move, some we are still learning about, but it has to be the single highest value appreciation in league history. He can now afford to be stupid.
Mark Davis hired the guy who thought Tim Tebow was a franchise qb. Sandy
Al Davis was on record saying many times that the Raiders, "owned territorial rights" to the L.A. market.
This is why the NFL waited until Al had passed to bring NFL football back to the L.A. market.
They knew if they tried to squeeze Al out of L.A., the lawsuits were coming like a ton of bricks on their heads. They didn't want to deal with it, and they were always afraid of losing in court to Al.
The L.A. market is much more lucrative than Vegas. But Mark Davis didn't fight it at all. Al must have been rollin' in grave when this happened. Don't you think Al could have moved Raiders to Vegas if he wanted to ?
All Mark Davis does is try to copy things from the past. He has to cut his own path, become his own man, try to find a new way, his way, of doing things. Only then do the Raiders have a chance of winning again.
Williamson wrote this, which I think sums it up for many of us.
"The Raiders became the fifth NFL team to have a 1,500 rusher (Josh Jacobs) and a 1,500-yard receiver (Davante Adams). The other four teams went to the playoffs. What a waste and it’s on McDaniels and his staff."
In an incredible display of mocking the Raiders, we learned the Chiefs players are designing their own plays, ala the carousel huddle-to-the-line play. Meanwhile, the Raiders can sign and field the best skill players in the league and still suck as a team. Very discouraging because that's further evidence that it might not matter who's playing QB.
Tom Brady will be 47 next season and the Raiders have no defense. Safe to say, Brady would be smart to avoid ending his career in LV.
Garopollo is coming off season-ending foot injury, and he had season-ending injuries in 2018 and 2020 as well.
Anyone the Raiders might draft at QB would need at minimum 1-2 years to mature. That won't bode well for Adams, who is SB-ready.
IDK, it's insane to think, but Derek Carr might be the best option for the Raiders to grow out of this funk of bad coaching. Carr brings continuity and familiarity.
Whoever the Raiders get to play QB1, they still have to overcome themselves.
Oh gee really you think NY. I've been saying that over and over on this Blog the Raiders will not find a better quarterback than Carr. Remember Connor Cook LOL. Mark Davis should fire McDaniels bring back carr and hire Jim Harbaugh. I've been saying it from the beginning McDaniels is not a head coach he's a loser and I feel the same way about Ziegler. Say whatever you want but the Raiders were a 10 win team last year they added Adams and somehow McDaniels made them worse. Sandy
I said from the beginning that expectations were high. Clearly, they were not met. Turns out, McDaniels is better at the podium with his football acumen than he is on the sideline or drawing up the game plan. In the end, McDaniels failed miserably. You won't get any argument from me on that.
Josh McDaniels and QB1 TBD with Zeigler pulling the strings, or
Jim Harbaugh and Derek Carr...
This is on Mark Davis to get it right. Personally, I think Davis is over his head.
Mark is way over his head. I watched some of the jets Dolphins game today and the whole time while watching two completely useless quarterbacks all I could think was they got rid of Derek Carr for for what is that going to be the Raiders? Sandy
With the loss yesterday, McDaniels' record as a Head Coach is 17-28, and he is now a half game worse than Tom Cable, who had a record of 17-27. Tom Brady is not coming here. Raiders will be stuck with the like of Mac Jones, Baker Mayfield, Kyler Murray, and maybe even Lamar Jackson. Though Lamar would be an exciting choice, none of these are better than Carr. Meanwhile, Derek is going to aks to be cut, and right now, I see him going to Tennessee Baltimore, or Arizona (depending on QB situations with the last 2). However, I feel Tennessee is his best fit to win now. Another scenario would be the Rams if Stafford retires.
NY Raider, Why is MD way over his head? I thought he was a genius? oh and I thought all he had to was let the front office do the work? you fans sure don't think a lot of MD!
Al didn't have a plan for his retirement? He hired Bruce Allen as GM but did trade him(W/ Gruden) to TB. He picked a guy he hired as last HC to run his team. But oh no, we needed a real GM so MD(the NFL) hired Reggie. Wow what a great move by MD(NFL).
* other Anon, Tebow? he beat us in a very strange game. the Raiders shouldn't've been fighting for a wild card but locking up the division, they were loaded with talent and outstanding front office but somehow lost to Tebow. Oh, no Raidernation, the media zapped you about Reggie, D. Allen, McGloin and Flynn so they probably would've conned you about Tebow.
NY Raider, Carr has put up stats- stats are o.k. but they sure look better when you're winning. The problem is that that the NFL is focused on money and when they come up with media for fans to get stats for fun and maybe gambling the league makes more money.
you don't want McDaniels? I thought you wanted model franchise, game manager, high character building front office?
You say MD has made mistakes and the L.V. move doesn't look so good now- you say fans aren't happy with some of their decisions and rumors of their rebuilding plans(Brady, Stidham, Jimmy G) isn't better than now(Carr). Some fans even feel these new regimes aren't being pressured or fired and that the league wants more ways to make money off the Raiders and they focus on that but they help hire guys from dynasties and other winning systems to keep us spending money. But they/ media hype the NFL way and that it works and next year the high character, game managing and the other NFL people from winning systems will win more next year- we complain and get upset and we get criticized for it- We then sometimes complain and get upset and talk to blogs, media and shout to the Raiders and NFL
- But yet when they come up with some con game you support it.
* The Raiders need old school help!:
more size and speed on D, press CBs', a top pass rusher at DT, to stick with the 4-3, a faster RB.
* I see a scam for the '24 Super Bowl. The Raiders win big in '23 and are a contender in '24 to win the Super Bowl!
T. Brady: Now you don't really think T. Brady wants to come here do you?
Jimmy G.: Man, Jimmy G. is gonna take this team to the playoffs? Maybe, but I
'Matty' Ice: Yes, he's a very good QB and could be the vet that is like Theisman, D. Williams, E. Morrall to take us to the playoffs.
L. Jackson: It would be a nice signing but would cost a lot. I'm not sure it would be the best move
T. Lance: No, not yet, I think the 49ers will trade Jimmy G. but Lance needs more time to get better.
Ghost Ship- MD copies from the past? No he listens to the NFL! that's the only thing he does. If he'd followed Al the Raiders' wouldn't lost a lot of talent. They'd had a good HC and a strong front office- but he listened to the NFL. Oh yes, MD isn't original in his move but he isn't in the past. He's supporting and listening to the league/ owners.
Al Davis spoil son, doesn't know what he's doing? What is supposed to do but let the coaches coach? You fans said Al meddled too much now you claim MD isn't doing enough?
other Anon, demoralizing? K.C. is only doing what the NFL has been doing since the slump. kick them when they're down! its' o.k. to be disrespectful to the lowly Raiders. The 49ers did it too- instead of running out the clock they ran a reverse that almost scored. high character? to do that to a team when you could just run out the clock? wow Raidernation!
Anon, I'm not sure I understand your post. Gruden and Bruce Allen were jettison well before Al died and neither were ever considered a contingency plan for Al's retirement or death.
I believed (still do) it took balls for Mark Davis to hire McDaniels and Zeigler over Bisaccia, who I only viewed as an interim HC with no HC experience. As I wrote above, unfortunately, McDaniels is more of a talker than a doer (so far).
As for Carr's stats, leading the league in INTs is never good. Then he completely jumped the shark in the Steelers game. I believe Carr can thrive in the right system, but he's not going to be given that chance with the Raiders. Realistically, he's probably not the best option with McDaniels as HC. Reports are out now that suggest the Raiders gave up on Carr a month into the season.
Again, realistically, Davis has too much invested in McDaniels to not give him another season, maybe two. MD had Gruden signed up for 10 years, so I'm guessing Mark is more patient than his father.
I wish I had the answer. But I'm w-a-y outside looking in. This is on Mark Davis. If you're expecting me to make the call, please send cash.
Headline:
"Josh Jacobs Said Josh McDaniels’ “Offensive Mind” is on Another Level, Ahead of Jon Gruden "
This is going to be a really unusual off-season!
2023 schedule, IMO, looks to favor the Raiders.
Raiders have been known in the past to waste an easy schedule, but games at home against Pats, Jets, Steelers and maybe Packers and Giants are all winnable. Vikings may present a problem.
Away, only the Bills look unbeatable. Otherwise, Colts, Dolphins, Bears and Lions.
ALSO, the Raiders play 9 home games and 8 road games. That rotates every year.
NO EXCUSES in 2023!
To NY Raider, BEFORE Gruden and Allen were traded to TB Al had been grooming Allen to be the next GM. Allen was maybe named the assistant GM- I'm not sure but he was working with Al.
* Why isn't Carr going to get a chance with the Pats' guys? I thought only Al didn't know QB talent? I thought you didn't get rid of your franchise players so quickly?
But Raidernation bought into the high character/ discipline and great coaching thing after a 9 year slump. But didn't really think that maybe they were going way too far and moving to quickly to rebuild this team?
The same moves are being made and it seems its' more of a scheme to make money in L.V. and bring in more outsiders to Raiders. Getting rid of another regime's QB(Carr) isn't unusual but its' that these regimes don't always find better talent. Maybe they should talk to people from past winning teams(Al's era too) and get old ideas and ask the new regime if they can use them.
I don't think they wanted Carr and again, that's how some new regimes work but its' the fact that the Raiders let these guys come in and run the whole show(except Gruden) without the Raiders telling them they have some plans and also they need to check with them before the(regimes) makes some of their decisions.
It took balls for MD to hire the Pats' guys? MD got advise about the guys he hired, but why not 1st look at what you already had in the front office(Al's)? what does it take to get advise and then support the guys they(advisers) pick or claim are top NFL people to talk to?
What gets me is you really think the Raiders didn't have talent over that 9 year slump.
1. they had more talent than MOST playoff teams.
2. they had some of if not the best units in the NFL over that WHOLE slump(special teams, pass rush, secondary and run game).
3. their front office had some of the best assistants in the league.
Make the Call? The Raiders are supporting the same old NFL way but maybe they should try some old ideas:
1. get bigger, faster, athletic players.
2. spend more on expensive free agents.
3. draft more elite college players.
4. use a 3-4 defense if you don't think you can build a top LB unit.
5. sign M. Mariota to compete with whoever they bring in as QB.
"To NY Raider, BEFORE Gruden and Allen were traded to TB Al had been grooming Allen to be the next GM."
With all respect, I couldn't disagree more. Al ran the show. There was no hierarchy at the top of the Raiders org. because Al ran everything.
But the biggest flaw in your theory is that Al died almost 10 full years after Gruden and Allen left. What was his Plan B? It certainly wasn't Mark.
Nate 75,
I know you watch a lot of college ball, give me your top two choices for Raiders pick #7. Let's assume Jalen Carter, Willie Anderson, Stroud and Bryce Young are all going to be gone before the Raiders pick.
Sandy
My thoughts as we head into the offseason. #1, there will be some positional coach changes, and I think Mick Lombardi takes the fall for Josh McDaniels. Defensively, maybe Matt Edwards.
Josh said in his presser today that QB is top priority. Rumors all over the place has Brady coming to Vegas. I hope not, because I don't think he is it and sure don't think he could have led the Raiders to the playoffs this year either. I think Derek Carr asks to be released and signs for less money elsewhere, and the Raiders get nothing in return. Quite honestly, can't blame him.
I have always let it be known that I loved Derek Carr from the moment we drafted him and Mack. We all thought they both would be the face of the franchise for years to come. When Mack was dealt away, Derek kept that Raiders fire; and his resolve to win didn't match what the coaches and front offices were doing. 7 coaches in 9 years, but all of a sudden he doesn't work as the QB is ridiculous. Again, I'm not saying there are no better QB's than Derek; there are. Tom Brady is not one of them; neither is Mac Jones, or Jimmy G.
I would be happy with Aaron Rodgers (whom would have to be traded, unless he is cut after June 1st), if we are looking at old vet QBs. If we are looking younger vets, I'd rather see Lamar Jackson or Daniel Jones. As far as the "plan" that Ziegler and McDaniels keeps talking about, it remains to be seen.
The other thing to think about here. McDaniels is a known cheater, with the Pats (Spygate/Deflategate) and the Doncos (Spygate 2). Do you think he let Carr go because Carr was unwilling to cheat to win? The Raiders have somewhat cleaned up their image with Carr. Do you think that Carr's attitude was "off" this year (according to locker room) because he knows McDaniels is trying to cheat to win, and didn't want part in that?
Now the Raiders have an image problem too. They removed a Raiders fan, his wife, and 1 year old from the Stadium that had a sign that read, "Bench McDaniels, We Deserve Better." Mark Davis complaining about how only visiting teams' fans shows up to his stadium; but he moved the team to Vegas (a destination place), is forced to sell a large portion of tickets to the hotels so they can package them with a room and other entertainment, and then puts a crap show out on the field. What does he expect? Take, I think this season, and this coming offseason deserves the Clown Car. Win, Lose (mostly the last 20 years), or Tie; Raiders 'til I die.
Sandy,
Everyone is saying CJ Stroud and Bryce Young. I don't think they go QB in the draft until their 2nd pick, and I think that pick is Kentucky QB Will Levis. I'm not sure Levis falls to the 2nd round, and if he doesn't, I expect the Raiders to trade down to get him. At the same time, I also like Dorian Thompson-Robinson (QB, UCLA), Hendon Hooker (QB, Tennessee), and Grayson McCall (QB, Coastal Carolina) as late round QB surprises that will do well in the league.
If they don't trade down, I don't see them making a "splashy" pick. I do think Jalen Carter has a great chance to be drafted at the #7 spot, and that is the "splashy" pick they get. I also like Peter Skoronoski (OT/G, Northwestern) and Paris Johnson (OT/G, Ohio St) with the #7 spot. I don't think these are headliners, but these guys are monsters in the trenches, and I think that is what they focus on in the first round. I also like Joey Porter Jr (CB, Penn St).
However, knowing the Raiders history of draft; they will probably pick the guy everyone has a mid 2nd rounder.
Ummmmmm......NY, I just told you that he had a game plan and for some reason changed it.
I don't think Al trusted that position to just anybody. Bruce was well into football school before the Raiders hired him, Al
But oh yes, he had big plans for the Raiders before his passing.
He chose Hue and LoCassale as the guys to run things until whatever plans he gave the Raiders could be worked out.
If you think for 1 minuet the NFL/ owners/ huge corporation weren't tampering with the Raiders, trying to get people inside and get some kind of hand in the front office maybe even more stake holders in the team you
Al didn't seem like a guy who didn't leave instructions on his business if he should retire or pass away. Now, knowing the hatred and greed of the NFL and the Raiders' 'brand' do you think he would make it so they could take over that easily?
Do you really think he told MD to run the team without some help? Think he forgot about his loyal players and staff and didn't care what happened to them?
Dude....of all the sports teams in pro sports it makes a ton of sense- it was a few hand picked guys with ex-players and coaches being consultants.
Al may've been isolating before his passing but he didn't just push his employees and friends back and let MD run with the team.
So to answer you question:
Hue
LaCossale
employees in the front office
trusted ex-players/ coaches as outside consultants to Hue and LaCossale.
I'm not that connected to the inner workings of the Raiders to know or understand that thought process (honestly, I'm getting dumber by the day when it comes to understanding the Raiders). From my cheap seats, 10 years seems like a long time to lapse from, as you say, "having a plan" to having no plan.
That sounds a lot like having no plan.
Hue Jackson let his ego get in his way, and he was the first out the door after Al passed. So, again, Al made no provision.
In the end, Mark Davis took over... and here we are, 10 more years later.
And while MD filled the hierarchy void that he inherited, the results haven't changed.
Headline: Titans have fired offensive coordinator Todd Downing.
Remember, Downing replaced Bill Musgrave as Raiders OC. That was the turning point for what was the best Raiders team (season) in 20 years. Carr was in MVP running.
Hey Anon you are always spouting off about Al. are you ald othe guy wanting Jacoby Ford to come back and claiming the earth is flat lol. Put your name to your posts like RT asked so we can make sure which one of you is spouting crap. In this case Al Locasale retired in 2003 which was 8 years before Al died. Prior to that he was not involved in football oprations for years. He had long been replaced by Ron Wolf and Steve Otomayer on the personell side. If you want to talk Raider history don't make up foolishness it is disrespectful to Al's legacy
Sandy
Going back to the 2023 schedule, Chiefs play the Eagles and Bengals, and the Chargers play the Cowboys. Raiders have none of those matchups.
Of course, there's a chance the Raiders might play against Derek Carr next year. That's a barnburner waiting to happen.
Al had a plan and he also had sense far more than the fans, media and these new regimes- I don't know or have proof he wrote a plan and had chosen his staff for the Raiders but I believe he probably had 1.
UNDERSTAND NY- the NFL is about money! Al was about winning, he was 1 of the best businessmen in pro sports- he wasn't worried about money because he tried to make his own business deals, would work on the business side and got NFL revenue sharing anyway.
Its' fans that get excited when the NFL talks about things like how valuable a team is. Why? most of these teams are owned by billionaires. They build stadiums and now, places for fans to have fun at- that bring in more fans and more money.
And they almost run the NFL now-, this is a new league and that's o.k. but not everybody wants to support that.
1 team has won a lot(Patriots) now everybody is supposed to copy their system and with media/ NFL hype fans are criticized for not supporting it. A talented team, spending big on free agents can't succeed as a well coached, prepared team with discipline and a low salary cap- and many fans believe that.
The Raiders have signed a lot of guys from winning systems, Let a lot of NFL people in and done a lot of things so-called model franchises do. Again, the NFL way is o.k. for others but Al/ other teams had their own way. It was a good idea to try something new- but why the rush to move on from Al's era? 9 losing seasons o.k. but the hype about high character and low salaries did fans really think this was a better way than the older ways? Guys like Al and J. Jones can't win in this era?
Talk about balls for somebody(media/ NFL/ owners) to declare a system is dominate and almost unbeatable is too much.
Raiders fans know Al could build a winning team because they just lost a super bowl.
its' not just about the the Raiders the claim was no other system could succeed.
Didn't fans notice other things about this new NFL era? the PARITY talk meaning mediocrity, the move from expensive star talent to settling for average-good talent, supporting the owners and their plans to reduce player salaries? You can't win if you are already winning and/ or have an over talented roster but you have to have a new stadium and a franchise QB.
That the new Raiders did all of this and allowed new regimes to fire almost all of Al's employees?
The Raiders are the ONLY team in which the media claimed needed 5 years to rebuild in a PARITY league?
So the Raiders refused to use any of Al's ideas and soon got rid of all his players and almost all his employees they then started the NFL way and were 1 of the worst teams in the league for years. Instead of trying some of Al's ideas they wanted to take average-good players but didn't coach them up. They focused on L.V. and a new stadium instead of the team, they have average players but the PARITY still hasn't helped them win a lot.
This is the new Raiders this is what Raidernation wanted and this is why the NFL/ owners are such a greedy and mediocre product, a disgrace and shameful show.
Yes other Anon its' me, the guy defending Al's era.
the NFL fired Al's employees using the new regimes to do the job for them.
the NFL wanted the Raiders to have an ex-Raider as teams' leader but they would have say in some of the things with Raiders.
The Raiders suddenly wanted to build a different team. MD was clueless and didn't know much about NFL people and the media hype and frustration/ confusion from Raidernation gave the NFL room to get into the team. They claim MD WANTED some of Al's staff fired and that he got good advise about Reggie. That the team needed a rebuild and a new modern franchise way was needed. Raiders stopped looking for size, speed and athleticism, ended its' attitude toward the league, stopped voting against the NFL's plans when they were wrong, got more corporate and other things.
nobody would've fired(almost all) those guys(coaches) because they were some of the best assistants in the NFL.
Other Anon! NY Raider ummmm.....dudes! LaCossale was with Al until he passed and then was either fired of quit after Reggie was hired.
You fans sure are funny but this isn't very funny. Wow!
Think the new 'NFL way' was good for the Raiders and that they needed an overhaul? Well look at talent on all 4 regimes:
C-Wood is your best DB even though Al drafted him Reggie gets credit for re-signing him.
J. Ford was you best overall ST performer/ he had 4 ST TDs'('10-'11). I think new era player J. Richard had 2 and another guy had 1 over a 12 year period.
T. Kelly still has the record for sacks by a DT(7.5 in '11).
D. Burgess, not K. Mack has the Raiders' record for sacks in a season(16).
The last cover CBs' the Raiders had was in '10 with C. Johnson and S. Routt who you threw under the bus.
The guy you wanted back was Gruden(Al) but MD gets credit for re-hiring him.
M. Bush is a little better than J. Jacobs who is a very good RB but M. Bush was huge and a pro bowl level star RB.
J. Vehldeer is the best of the OTs' and was pro-bowler for AZ and Oakland. BTW...Reggie claimed he didn't re-sign Vehldeer because he "didn't want to be a Raider".
All 4 regimes had LB issues but K. Morrison, R. Brown and T. Howard are as good as any LB unit the other 3 regimes had.
D. Carr is the best QB but Palmer, Campbell, Brooks, Collins and Grodkowski had the talent to lead Raiders to the playoffs. that's 2 for the other regimes.
You can only guess who was the best of the WRs' but you have Gruden picking Renfroe, Agholor and Waller, The Pats' guys with Hollins and Adams and Al with R. Moss
and Reggie with A. Cooper. I'll call it a tie.
The new regimes win the the O-line overall.
But the OT position Al had J. Vehldeer and the others(D. Penn, T. Brown, K. Miller, T. Pashos, K. Osemele) were good but not quite on his level.
8(Al)-4 Gruden was re-hired by MD who is an NFL guy.
I didn't count the FB units- The 4 regimes look good at FB Reggie, Gruden and the Pats' guys all had at least 1 good FB but Al had pro-bowler M. Reece.
Defending Al's era? Why? Are we so removed from having solutions for current team that we have to live in the past?
It's 2023!
Once upon a time, the Raiders were great. But the Raiders are literally generations removed from that. Anyone who became a football fan over the past 20 years doesn't see the Raiders as many of us see them. They see the Raiders as a team which is two layers below the Lions. And saying 20 years removed is generous. The greatness of the Raiders left the room in the 80's. If we're talking about Al's greatness, let's at least capture the right era. Not the one which he was fighting with Mike Shannahan or dusting off an overhead projector to fire Lane Kiffin "for cause," or when his coaches were brawling in the back room.
The Raiders have been marred in dysfunction for decades. There's a lot more to it than singling out good players in an "Ali vs. Tyson" what if.
Here's my list of great Raiders players:
Carr
Adams
Jacobs
Waller
Renfrow
Miller
James
What HC or OC wouldn't love to have these guys?
Crosby
Chandler Jones
Perryman
Ya-sin
Billings
Looks like the start of a pretty good defense, right?
Yet here we are, looking for answers, just like so many years that Al was alive and running the show. This ride has no end in sight. Even the law of averages doesn't work in the Raiders bizarro world.
Anon,
I don't think anyone here questions Al legacy, which is no doubt tied to the team's history. But his legacy includes the ten years after the last trip to the Super Bowl. I think that legacy is jaded because he had players, agents, and coaches take advantage of him during those years. You mentioned Tommy Kelly, and yes, he was a good DT; but he became better after he left the Raiders. Randy Moss is another example too. He is arguably one of the best WR's as far as career goes, but his time with the Raiders was a joke; and to give him a tie with Adams is a joke too. Adams just broke the single season WR records for the Raiders in his first season; something that Moss didn't even come close to doing.
Also, you said: "D. Carr is the best QB but Palmer, Campbell, Brooks, Collins and Grodkowski had the talent to lead Raiders to the playoffs. that's 2 for the other regimes."
Untrue. The Raiders have only made the playoffs after the Super Bowl loss to the Bucs in 2016 and 2021; the QB was Carr. Palmer, Campbell, Brooks, Collins, and Gradkowski did not make the playoffs. Palmer and Campbell led the Raiders to their best records (8-8) between Gannon and Carr.
You said: "M. Bush is a little better than J. Jacobs who is a very good RB but M. Bush was huge and a pro bowl level star RB." I call BS here. Michael Bush was a backup to McFadden who started one year when McFadden was injured. Jacobs just became the first League Leader in Rushing for the Raiders since Marcus Allen did it in 1985. Justin Fargas, Latavius Murray, and Jalen Richard were all better RB's than Michael Bush. This is the most absurd statement I've seen on this site.
Let's look at Al's legacy when it comes to coaches too. Here is the list of the Top 5 coaches in Raiders history, according to their records and playoff records:
John Madden 103-32-7 ties, 9-7 in playoffs
Tom Flores 83-53, 8-3 in playoffs
Jon Gruden (2 stints) 60-57, 2-2 in playoffs
Art Shell (2 stints) 56-52, 2-3 in playoffs
John Rauch 33-8-1, 2-2 in playoffs
Honorable mentions: Al Davis 23-16-3, no playoff record and Jack Del Rio 25-23, 0-1 in playoffs.
I'm willing to give McDaniels a fair chance as HC; but taking a team to 7-11 after making the playoffs this year, and saying that our QB is not going to work with him after being able to work with 6 other HC's in his career makes me doubt if he's the right guy. But that remains to be seen.
I'll argue against some other statements you made later. But don't think for a second we are bashing Al's legacy. Toward the end of his career, he needed help in the front office; and didn't get it. Mark Davis' front office he just dismantled had a mixture of his guys and some of his dad's guys. Marc Badain who resigned as team president was ripping off both Al and Mark with the Oakland Stadium deal and taxes. There have been some serious other deep issues that are starting to come to light too; to be honest, that Mike Mayock unveiled to Mark before he was fired. That is all NY is saying. There was some weird stuff going on with Al in his latter days that he was unwilling to address; his health being one of them. You don't believe me, you should consider some of the interviews that Amy Trask has done about it. Just Win, Baby!
So what happens if Mark starts to run the team the way Al did? Does he throw out the computers and go back to chalkboards? Does Mark hire coaches that he can tell what to do, right down to the game plans? Does Mark become the GM and D coordinator? Does Mark do everything because he can't trust anyone else? That sure sounds like a winning combo?
How is it, the Raiders don't sign star players with huge contracts but their cap was close to max every year? Anyone who says M.Bush was better than Jacobs is, that gave me a good laugh. Jacoby Ford couldn't catch a cold in the middle of winter.
Another great article by Hondo Carpenter:
https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/las-vegas-raiders-josh-mcdaniels-dave-zielger-mark-davis-tom-brady-mac-jones
He has been spot on with his assessments of the team and what people in the organization and league are saying. He says the Raiders will make a bold run for Brady because Mark Davis wanted him a few years ago, but Gruden didn't (mainly because the Tuck Rule ruined Gruden's career with the Raiders). The problem is, there doesn't seem to be a contingency plan if they don't get him. Like Hondo said in the article, the Raiders want Brady, but does Brady want the Raiders?
There is also rumblings for Jimmy G and Mac Jones. I think with his history of injuries, Jimmy G is an equal QB than Carr. I think Mac Jones is a step backwards. With the state of the team and Brady's age, I think it is a slightly better move, but not by much. I definitely don't think Brady could have gotten the Raiders to the playoffs this year. But as Hondo's article says, Mark Davis wants Brady; and if they don't succeed with him, Dave Z and McDaniels can always point back and say, "You were the one who wanted Brady." I believe Hondo when he says that Josh wanted to keep Carr, but Mark was not happy and wasn't ever really impressed with Carr's play.
This article is really eye-opening here. Again, I know Hondo as a person, and he receives and gives good insight from people in the organization and around the League. Good read, check it out.
I just want to know if the guy who thinks Jacoby Ford was Jerry Rice and Michael Bush is better than Josh Jacobs the same guy who thinks the covid vaccine is killing people can the two anons please fess up to which one of you is wearing the tin foil hat. Sandy
What does it matter, Sindy? You are obviously a stooge who has no ability to think for yourself. If you want to have a discussion about the jab, then do it. But wanting to name call and have no intelligent words to add, makes it useless to discuss it, with your type.
Tell me, what is causing all the excess deaths around the world? Stats show, death rates have always been fairly close year after year even during the so-called death wave of covaids. Now that the jabs have been rolled out, there is a big spike in deaths around the world. And they are all dying in the same manner, suddenly. SADS, ever heard of it?
Unknown deaths is what they are calling it, but if you do some research, you will see that it is known.
Sindy seems to think he/she is superior to everyone else and will call you names and try to discredit without any facts to back what it is writing. Poor Sindy, can't think for itself, a proud product of the educational system.
Take another booster, Sindy, do it for the rest of us.
Not sure I agree with the assessment that Derek Carr and Jimmy Garoppolo are the same. How's that? JG worked with McDaniels, so that has to be a factor which only McDaniels knows. DC had Adams and Jacobs at his disposal and couldn't make it work. Honestly, if that's all on McDaniels, we are in deep sh*t. Raiders may never recover.
Mac Jones can't be discounted. He had a pretty good rookie year with McDaniels as OC. But getting Jones would require a trade.
Somehow, Raiders need a QB who is smarter than DC and can figure out McDaniels system. I'm not sure why it's rocket science, but apparently it is.
Tom Brady is an expensive stopgap. He probably can't win without a defense, and the Raiders currently have none. When Manning went to Denver, they had a defense. for Stafford, the Rams had a defense.
If Mark Davis forces a Tom Brady marriage, it might not end well for anyone... we fans in particular.
There's no obvious solution, and I can't help but be skeptical of any that's discussed or ultimately facilitated. Again, how did the offense miss so badly and so consistently with the tools they had?
RT, is there no way for you to moderate this blog and get rid of the hateful misogynistic homophobic comments? Sandy
You provoke a response and then cry about it when it's given. As usual, you cannot conduct a discussion, you have to mock and then run to a moderator. School kid behavior. If you have something to write, then write it, no need for children's games. Be a man, Sindy.
Not to sound like a broken record, but the Raiders made a business decision to protect $40M injury guaranty. Hard to blame them after Carr's game in PA. And even if they planned to keep Carr, it's fair they might want to rework Carr's contract, which becomes moot if he gets injured.
So, the Raiders smartly gave Stidham a look. If Stidham had played against the Chiefs the way he handled himself against the 49ers, we might be having a different conversation. But he didn't. He definitely doesn't have Carr's strong arm. Not the safety net I'd hoped for.
More broadly on the season, the Raiders coached like rookies this year, with poor calls, poor judgement and poor adjustments. However, if I'm placing the blame on one coach for not doing his job, I'd have to say Patrick Graham. He presided over an unprecedented 5 losses which the Raiders offense took double-digit leads into the second half, three times with 17 pts or more. That's a bad career for some coaches, but it became a season for Graham.
While McDaniels put the Raiders in position to win some games, he didn't help Graham with his conservative play-calling after taking a lead. McDaniels made some boneheaded calls but, in fairness, so did Gruden when he was calling plays. McDaniels missed more than once on critical possession plays which QB keepers would have easily converted.
To his credit, McDaniels brought power blocking back to the offense, with Jakob Johnson helping Josh Jacobs to a rushing title. ZBS has never worked for the Raiders.
To other Anon, I'm the Al guy.
I don't think R. Wolfe worked for Al after the '83 SB-early 90s'. true, they did more than LoCassale but he stayed with Al long after them and was there after Al passed.
* To Raider Nate: Adams is a pro bowler but Moss is a HOFer. maybe Adams will be a HOFer but he isn't on Moss' level yet.
* and you say Al ruined his last era? are you sure there wasn't outside groups helping him?:
Al hired S. Peyton to coach the Raiders in '03. For some reason coach Peyton turned him down- I should say quit because he had already agreed to be the Raiders HC. The story is some guys TOLD coach Peyton not to work for Al- now, who were those guys?
The Raiders trade starting WR D. Gabriel to the Patriots for a late draft pick- why would they trade a starter that they needed more than NE?
R. Moss is traded to the perfect place for his attitude/ talents(Raiders) and messes up there. He is traded to NE for a 4th round pick. So you mean 30 other teams couldn't offer more than a 4th round pick?
rookie DE Strike Sulak is released before practicing in camp and 31 other teams pass on him and the Patriots pick him up. NFL media was reporting before the move that the Patriots needed an olb-de.
DT T. Kelly walks-, Some fans wanted it because they felt he was overpaid and lazy. Media used to criticized him with the Raiders but when he signs with NE they ask if he's happy to leave Oakland. He didn't criticize the Raiders; Its' like they expected him to attack the Raiders even though he played for Reggie too.
A famous football broadcaster said "the Raiders are the worst team in the NFL and have virtually no chance of winning"! it was before the '03 season and the Raiders were the defending AFC Champions!
media starts to call for Al to retire. many sports stations and news paper reporters call for his retirement making the slump the excuse and the worst slump in sports history when that's far from the truth- BTW....the media seemed make the Raiders responsible for almost every bad thing in sports when it may've been the opposite.
ex-Raiders' CB S. Routt signed with K.C. media asked him about the Raiders- he didn't attack them but did make some comments. media asked the Raiders about the comments and local media went after Routt. The Raiders played in K.C. and their 1st play was a bomb on Routt's side that he picked off. After the game local media claimed Raiders abused Routt but I thought he played good. Like other ex-Raiders who had comments about Reggie's regime the media would be nice to their new teams but criticize them.
the Raiders didn't give QB TP2 his starting job back after a concussion but let rookie M. McGloin start. they traded TP2 to Seattle and sports media criticized him as a QB. but I saw a lot of his passes hit WRs' in the hands, bounce off and get picked off- he was Al's last draft pick.
Reggie lets pro bowl OT J. Vehldeer walk. I don't know if it was about money but Reggie says Vehldeer left because he "didn't want to be a Raider". Vehldeer denied the claim.
To Raider Nate, M. Bush was a 1st rounder until an injury and flashed star talent. He not only had huge runs but could catch sorry, I don't think Richard is on that level and as for Jacobs might be close but Bush was bigger, faster and just as tough.
I said the QBs had talent to make playoffs because they did for other teams and NEVER had the talent Al put around them.
Raider Nate its' true, there were some strange things happening with Al. I know he didn't crown anybody as GM and didn't tell us the truth about his health, but I think somebody was expected to run Raiders if something happened. Nate, some of those strange issues may be caused by outside tampering; you had good points in this post. Thank you.
* To Raider Nate: Adams is a pro bowler but Moss is a HOFer. maybe Adams will be a HOFer but he isn't on Moss' level yet.
* and you say Al ruined his last era? are you sure there wasn't outside groups helping him?:
Anon, I did not say Al ruined his last era. I said players, coaches, and agents took advantage of him; and that has left its mark on this team in a bad way. You talk about these guys who left as if they were amazing players, but they were not. Kelly had one season where he recorded 12.5 sacks; and it was during his last year under a rookie contract that got him a HUGE contract, and then he disappeared again. After he was traded, he played better because he had coaches holding him accountable.
Bush may have been a first rounder, but he never amounted to anything but a back up, both with the Raiders and with the Bears. He was not better than Richard and not even close to Jacobs. He is more comparable to Deandre Washington.
To Raider Nate: Adams is a pro bowler but Moss is a HOFer. maybe Adams will be a HOFer but he isn't on Moss' level yet ... R. Moss is traded to the perfect place for his attitude/ talents(Raiders) and messes up there. He is traded to NE for a 4th round pick. So you mean 30 other teams couldn't offer more than a 4th round pick?
Anon, again, I said that Moss' career compared to Adams would definitely be a tie; but his time with the Raiders, no, it would not. Adams has done more in one year with the Raiders than Moss, Cooper, and Algholor combined in their time with the Raiders. Also, it was Al who traded Moss to the Pats for a 4th Round, as he played with the Raiders in '05 and '06. But Al lost value on him because it was either trade or cut him; and he'd rather get something for him. Moss' situation is similar to the Raiders current situation with Carr. Carr lost trade value when McDummy and company benched him and sent him home instead of letting him finish out the season. Indy offered 2 first round picks for Carr at the beginning of the season. They don't get that now. Worse, I don't think Carr let's the Raiders trade him, I think he asks to be cut outright and plays elsewhere for less money to win. Even worse, I don't think the Raiders get the QB they want (Brady) and are left with nothing.
Reggie offered Veldheer a contract when he first got there, Veldheer went to look for better offers and signed with the Cardinals. When asked by media, Veldheer talked about how glad he was out of that organization. Later, when he was a free agent after his time with the Cards, he turned down another offer to return to the Raiders. So when Reggie says he didn't want to be a Raider, Veldheer himself said it.
Routt, Carrie, Amerson, Hayward, Fabian Washington, Philip Buchanon, Karl Joseph, and Chris Johnson were all CB's that were good, and excelled elsewhere that the Raiders let go; and none of them had anything bad to say about the team. I met TJ Carrie, he is an outstanding dude, and I always felt like he had great potential. I compare him to Nate Hobbs now. I love Hobbs; dude is a hard worker and has a high football IQ.
I don't think there was any outside tampering causing those strange issues. Sean Payton even said it himself this last weekend about where he wants to coach. He talked about stability in the front office; something the Raiders aren't known for. That doesn't mean that Al, or Mark for that matter, were not looking for stability; but Al's lawsuits against the League didn't help him either.
Good conversation, and even though we don't see eye to eye on some players, I truly enjoy your opinion. We both love the Raiders, and that is all that matters. Best wishes, and JUST WIN, BABY!
It's hard for me to even think about past teams or players. There's so much going on with the Raiders this off-season, which could easily be the busiest and most important off-season in memory.
Here's a take on second-tier QBs in the draft. This is a valid approach, sign a vet QB and coach up a rookie heir apparent. Stidham as a stopgap QB1 is a scary possibility.
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/raiders_prospects_in_2023_nfl_draft_top_5_non_first_round_qbs/s1_16640_38341147
NY, I would rather Tanner McGee in the second even better if it was the third than one of the four top guys (Revis, Richardson, Stroud, Bryce) in the first. 1st pick needs to be used on a DB.
Sandy
Sandy and NY,
I think from what Hondo wrote, the plan is to get Tom Brady and have someone sit under him for 2 years. The problem is there is no backup plan if (and I think when) Tom says "I'm not coming there."
If that happens, they have burned the bridge to get DC back and will be left with no option but to draft Stroud, Young, or Levis (fwiw, I'd rather get Hooker or McCall in later rounds). So, I think the Raiders go after O-line or D-line with the #7 overall, and that player is going to have to be the starter from day one. The rest of the rounds will be best available player. Free agency is going to determine the #7 pick as well. Otherwise, they will end up with a subpar vet like Jimmy G (injury prone, has not played an entire season), Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson (only one season he played without injury), or someone like Heineke, Daniel Jones, or they trade for Mac Jones (which is what Hondo said would happen if they don't get Brady).
I already wrote how I think that Derek Carr asks to be cut outright, and I think he does it, not to stick it to the Raiders, per se; but to show them he was willing to play for a winner for less money. That is the #1 factor of why they benched him and removed him from the facilities, they thought his contract was more than his value. But without giving him the opportunity to renegotiate, they benched him. I think he plays for Titans, Saints, Bucs (depending on Brady, whom I think he stays), Ravens (depending on Lamar, which rumor is they are willing to move on from him now that Carr is available), Commanders, or Seahawks.
The are other intriguing teams in the conversation for Derek Carr right now, one is the Patriots. The Patriots (as well as the Rams, Commanders, and Titans) are considering making a move to land Kliff Kingsbury as the OC, but I am sure he will have a ton of other opportunities as well, including USC, Alabama, and maybe a NCAA HC job or two.
Another team to watch in the DC saga is what happens with the Panthers. At the beginning of the season, the Colts offered the Raiders 2 first round picks for Carr because Frank Reich wanted him. Reich is considered the top HC candidate of the Panthers right now. With their defense, if Reich walked in and got Carr, they'd be contenders in that division, the weakest in the League; with an opportunity to go far into the post-season.
There are other teams he has been linked to via trade that I don't think he considers. Jets being one of them. In fact, the Jets are really the #1 landing spot for Jimmy G. Another is the Cardinals. DC wants a team with stable front office and coaching. Arizona has neither right now, and the same can be said for the Colts and Falcons.
I don't think the Raiders should get too fixated on the Qb position. There just aren't that many game changing Qb's available out there. If you said the Raiders could land a "Joe Burrow" type Qb in the draft, I'd say great, go for it, but what are the odds ? Free agents and trades are only Qb's that other teams don't want anymore.
Raiders should instead go the 49ers route. They do it with strong defense, and running game. They simply plug in any Qb into their system, and keep on winning. They are not pining away for Derek Carr, or Tom Brady. They have Brock Purdy, whoever the heck he is. But with the Defense, and ground attack going strong, all Purdy has to do is be efficient. If he can make a big play now and again, it's icing on the cake.
It's long overdo for Raiders to build up their defense. If Raiders use top picks for offense once again, we will be singing the blues yet again next season.
Let's all self-moderate please. I'm sure you all know what I mean.
Also, Anons, please choose a handle. They're free, easy, fun and even anonymous. It'll make these convos less confusing.
And thank you for keeping the takes flowing during this crazy season.
Ghost, Joe Borrow was a monster coming out of college. There's nobody new coming out of college on his level, IMO.
Free agency is loaded with QBs this year, so the Raiders should have some cushion in terms of missing on someone they might target, like Brady.
I favor defense, so I wouldn't be disappointed if the Raiders loaded up, starting, as you suggested Sandy, with a DB/CB with their first pick. I don't watch much college football but it looks like there are a few studs at the top of the draft.
Raiders have 11 picks. They could trade up! This isn't McKenzie or Gruden drafting.
In terms of Carr, media are all over the place. Some think Raiders have trade leverage, others believe they have nothing and must cut him. IMO, if the Raiders are ballsy enough to risk paying his guaranty, they will have more trade leverage 3 days after the SB. There are several teams looking for QB1 and Carr has to be at the top of some lists. If the Raiders get stuck with Carr, I think he would rather play than act out some vendetta. No way he tanks... Adams and others would not stand for that. Now that the Raiders have assured Carr's health by sitting him, it's worth the risk to facilitate a fair trade. Maybe I'm missing something... wouldn't be the first time.
It's hard to imagine the Raiders having such a bad record with the seasons these guys posted...
Carlson set an NFL record with 11 FGs of 50 or more. He tied for third in league scoring.
Adams and Jacobs both posted over 1500 yards. Adams had 100 receptions and Jacobs was good enough to win the league rushing title. These guys combined for 26 TDs. The O-line must have done something right to accommodate those numbers.
Crosby was lights out, again!
Unfortunately, the defense is where the team really failed.
NY, I agree with you it's easy for Carr say pay me or cut me. The only way the Raiders might get a day one pick is by guaranteeing his contract and hope a bidding war starts. That no trade clause makes things very difficult and Nate per your comments about the Colts there's no way they're going to get two first rounders for Carr now. I like Joey Porter Jr at number 7 pick. Sandy
NYR...Tom Brady will be, I believe, 45 yrs old next season. But whether Brady, Carr, Jimmy G, or anybody else, Raiders cannot count on scoring 40 points every game for wins. They need defense.
And I also agree with Sandy, a true lock down corner would be more valuable to Raiders than another young Qb who may, or may not be any good in the NFL.
Look at what Sauce Gardner did for Jets this year. Totally turned their defense around. Young Qb Zach Wilson struggled and was benched.
Would you trade Carr for Gardner ? I sure would, but Jets would never do this, even as badly as they need a Qb. Shows us what's really important to winning in the NFL.
Consider that the Raiders had (5) 1st round picks in 2019 and 2020 combined. That's insane! They also had (4) 2nd/3rd round picks combined in those years. Result: only Josh Jacobs to show for it, and he's a FA.
Raiders have 11 picks this year, with Derek Carr and potentially (though I don't like the idea of it) Waller as trade bait (trading Adams would be a PR nightmare). They also have the #7 pick (#7 seeding) in the draft this year.
Time for Zeigler and McDaniels to show us what they're made of. Do they fall flat and waste picks and make poor personnel decisions like the last regime, or do they pull a Kevin Kostner style Draft Day rabbit out of the hat?
Derek Carr represents value to the Raiders. But can they tap that value?
Tom Brady will be 46 in August. He's one- maybe two years and done. That's a waste of time and money if the Raiders don't have a defense (and a better O-line).
The honeymoon is over. Raiders entire org needs to be better than they've been. None of us are getting any younger. 20 years is an insanely long time to wait for a playoff win.
If this nonsense continues another year, Mark Davis might be looking for his dad's overhead projector, and Raider fans might be renting a billboard.
Just like old times.
What's crazy to me in all of this is McDaniels didn't want Brady, he came because of Derek. Hondo reported that it is Mark Davis driving Brady, and Mark Davis the one who wanted Carr benched after the Pittsburgh game. In his last presser, McDaniels said he and Carr have a great relationship, and Carr was one of the hardest working QB's he has ever coached; but at the end of the day, he took the fall for having an off year.
So this whole scenario with Carr falls directly on Mark Davis. It seems that if it doesn't work out to get Brady, or if they do get Brady and fail; then the failure falls on MD, and Zeigler and McDaniels buy more time to rebuild the way they want. Again, this is according to Hondo who has been spot on with his reports the last 2 years. I'm not saying his word is gospel; but he knows more about the inner workings of the Raiders than any other beat writer right now. A close second is Moe Moton.
The reason why Tampa struggled this year were due to injuries. Fournette and a few of Tom's offensive line were injured this year. Do they come back healthy next season, and does that intrigue Tom to stay? I think so. It wouldn't surprise me if Tampa puts the Franchise Tag on Tom either. Raiders put all their cards on the table, and since we all know the house wins, they have set themselves up to fail. This is why this whole thing doesn't make sense to me. In the end, if (and I think when) it fails; there is no one to blame but Mark Davis.
NAte 75,
You should read Vic Tafur, I feel he is the best of the beat writers. I find Hondo spends too much time patting himself on the back and predicting things than actually reporting. All the beat writers tend to ask softball questions to maintain their access. Mark is a fool but I don't believe he was alone in making the decision about Derek no chance. Also it was Ziegler who gave him the no trade clause, big mistake now that they want to get rid of him.
Ghost, Carr for Gardner that would be awesome but it is never going to happen. Kelee Ringo from Georgia is also a top ten talent but not as physical as Porter.
I am not sure what Brady has left but without an o-line he wont be much. Anyway I think he ends up in Miami. What I would like to happen but it for sure won't is gurantee Carr's contract and then trade him, if they can not trade him bring him back to start while keeping Stindham and draft someone in the latter rounds to develop. The fact that we are talking about Brady or Jimmy G shows what little there is available in the QB market. I maintain that whoever is the QB next year they will not be as good as Carr.
Sandy
Maybe Mark Davis is worried that Tom Brady will find his way to Denver next year. Because if Sean Payton, & Tom Brady go to the Donks, the Raiders will probably finish last place in the west next season.
“Raider Nation truly is special. … I look forward to a new city and a new team who, no matter the circumstance, will get everything I have.”
Derek Carr says goodbye to the Raiders 👀
There's got to more to it than just Mark Davis calling for benching Carr. Some media reports suggest Carr was losing favor early in the season. Yet, McDaniels clearly had a strong relationship with Carr.
If this situation is all Mark Davis, there's still time for Zeigler and McDaniels to reverse course and bring back Carr.
But I honestly don't know if that's in the Raiders best interest. It's almost unfathomable that a top level QB couldn't manage to win a single playoff game in nine years. Top QBs, like Brady in his prime and now we see guys like Joe Borrow get to the playoffs and win games almost in spite of their surroundings.
Okay, Carr was injured in 2016, and he was like one play from a real chance at beating the Bengals last year. That's something, for sure.
I hate to keep repeating this, but I don't friggin' know the right move. I barely have an opinion, nor do I trust my opinion.
If you look at the stats, Carr, over his career, had the worst D overall in the league during that period. Hanging the not winning tag on the QB who has dealt with pathetic situations, doesn't seem right.
Carr is not coming back, he just issued a statement saying goodbye. And who in their right mind would bring him back, or in Carr's instance, why would he come back? The divorce papers have been signed, it's a done deal.
Below is a link to Top 10 Raiders plays in 2022. Actually, there were some insane plays this year, including multiple one-handed catches by Adams and three walk-off TDs... one being the crazy play by Chandler Jones.
https://www.raiders.com/video/highlights-top-10-raiders-plays-from-the-2022-season-nfl
Carr has said goodbye to Raider Nation on Twitter and Facebook. He and his agent are asking to be released so he can pursue his own team in free agency; so that team can keep their draft picks and build a team that will win. A dark cloud looms over Raider Nation once again. Carr had a top 5 O-line in 2015, 2016, and 2017; and Gruden dismantled it in his tenure; he never had a defense ranked above 20th. The stats that Carr put up in his 9 years with mostly subpar O-Lines is absurd. His only mark against him, in my opinion, is the Red Zone offense. He faultered in the Red Zone, especially after his injury in 2016. It also seems after Khalil Mack was traded, he played differently.
I became a fan of the Raiders at the age of 7 in 1981. I was completely sold after attending my first game, in which Al Davis gave my dad tickets to attend. That game was the '83-'84 AFC Championship Game vs the Seahags. In 2014, the Raiders drafted Khalil Mack and Derek Carr, and I felt like I was 7 again. I thought these were the 2 key pieces to build around to make a championship team. 3 years later, Gruden let Mack go. 9 years later, Mark Davis and company have let Derek go; without every building a championship team around him. I don't forsee this changing, regardless of who they bring in. I truly do not think this is going to play out well for the Raiders. It never has in the past, and they keep doing the same things hoping for different results. IT'S INSANE! It is truly a sad and gloomy day for me.
it's pretty bad management that creates a situation where the Raiders get nothing in return for Carr. How a team can go 20 years and never build a D that could win one game a season. That is sad, we as Raider fans have taken a lot of abuse over the last 20 years.
We have stuck it out and have run out of patience. Mark needs to come out and give a statement concerning the direction the team is taking.
The Nation is divided, the team is probably divided and there seems to be no plan.
Then, Mark complains about the stadium being full of the other teams colors. Might be a disconnect there, money corrupts.
As fans, we really need to question what is happening, no more patience, that is all over. Mark is going to lose more fans if he doesn't speak out and soon, mutiny might be needed.
It doesn't matter who in the organization decided Carr had to go. What matters is, it is looking as though they will get nothing in return for him.
If the decision was to not go forward with Carr, I wonder when that decision was made, why did they wait until the end of the season to decide Carr wasn't good enough anymore? If they knew he was not the guy going forward, why did they wait this long? Now they have painted themselves into a corner and it doesn't look as though the Raiders will receive compensation. If this is the case, it's further evidence that this new regime is in over their heads.
Speak up, Mark, we can't hear you.
Raider Nate, thanks for the post. Just wanted to give you my side of the argument.
The fact is Veldheer did say he didn't make those comments. But, that doesn't mean he wasn't going to leave. And DE Lamar Houston may've wanted to leave(too?)- read his comments.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/26/veldheer-disputes-mckenzies-claim-he-didnt-want-to-be-a-raider/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/21czs8/reggie_mckenzie_on_losing_lt_jared_veldheer_to/
Supporting the 'model franchise' way to obsession. Al was obsessed with speed and athleticism and the new Raiders are obsessed with that system:
1. they almost completely support the NFL's plans.
2. they refuse to spend big on free agents.
3. they are almost corporate and have an almost all(but not quite) cold, business-like attitude toward Raidernation.
4. will reach for guys they think are high character or steals instead of elite college stars.
5. won't stand up for NFL issues like the CBA and player strikes but will stand up for social issues.
6. passing on or refusing to get electrifying players(Mariota).
When Al passed, the NFL saw a huge hole and started banging on the door- not to be invited, but to knock it down!
It wasn't about what Al did to the old owners or the losingh and it really wasn't to help the Raiders. It WAS revenge too- but mainly to erase the culture that:
1. worked with the NFLPA to get players high salaries.
2. kept suing the league and NFL cities.
3. Upset the other owners by paying vets big, guaranteed salaries that forced them to pay them too.
4. gave a 1st overall pick a huge, guaranteed salaries that forced them to pay their rookies more salaries too.
5. sued another team(Bucs).
6. talked about NFL corruption to the media(that wasn't supporting the NFL).
7. didn't rush too fast to get a new stadium built in Oakland.
8. that refused to invite a billionaire, business, group or corporation to be partners in his team.
Now, we know the Raiders were winning('02) and I understand SB teams can slump but NOBODY can explain why they suddenly lost.
But I can tell you why these new regimes keep losing:
1. they refuse to build talent around their QB and pass rushers.
2. they believe signing guys of the street
3. they keep using the model franchise way
4. when they do get very good players they let them go quickly:
S. Harris(Reggie)- UDFA, 1 of the best pass rushing DTs' in the NFL. Played for Broncos and Seahawks.
D. Bass(Reggie)- UDFA had huge career in college Raiders released him after pre- season played for Titans a few years.
I. Johnson(Gruden/ Mayock)- draft pick had injury issues but was a tall CB. Never got his game back after injuries. played for Cowboys and Texans.
N. Agholor(G/M)- FA, was 1 of best WRs' on team but Raiders wouldn't pay him.
C. Patterson(Reggie)- FA, 1 of the most exciting WRs' and special teams players in the NFL. Raiders traded him.
These guys were picked by the new regime but the team just let them walk when they could've helped them. Although they weren't super stars they could've helped but the new regimes refused to build a team with a lot of talent.
As for Al's era you think they were mediocre, Al's dysfuntion, the shock of Gruden and Gannon leaving or the players quit on Al(that might be true or some truth) was the problem?
Now, there were some loses(Gruden, C-Wood, Gannon) but Al will reload(not rebuild). Now Nate, you REALLY believe the NFL past Al by and all that talent no longer was good enough to win?
I think they were 1 of the more talented. Well, that doesn't always win but it had some good front office people too.
Well that doesn't always win either but even with that the Raiders should have been above average. in a PARITY league they might've still been able to win maybe make the playoffs.
They had a winning team then suddenly lost. A league is upset and angry with a team and it suddenly loses is a little strange.
NYraider
Raiders protected Derek Carr from injury, now it's time to cash in that investment. They should retain him until they get a fair trade offer. No offense to Carr but releasing him so his new team doesn't have to give up draft capital? Really? Give me a break. Again, nothing against Carr, this is strictly business. Raiders potentially get a first round pick for the rights to Carr after the contract guarantee deadline.
Raiders need to be smart here.
To Derrick Carr,
When you came I thought you'd be o.k. but I also wasn't happy with Reggie and his new regime. I wanted other guys C. Palmer and TP2 to be the QB if for any reason to show Reggie Al/ Hue/ Cable did have good players even QBs'.
I wasn't a big fan until later. I saw how you played worked hard and kept helping your team mates. At first, I thought it was more "new era" players trying help pump up a mediocre team.
But I later saw your attitude and plain just looking for big plays and it wasn't just about trying to please the front office or just trying to look good.
I saw other QBs' over the years and when the media/ bloggers said negative things about you I kinda wanted to support it because I wanted to see other QBs' starting for this team maybe even more like guys Al might have wanted.
But later I heard you talk about the Raiders- you said you loved this team and wanted to retire a Raider. I heard you struggle with your temper and hold your temper and get upset but still try to talk good about you team mates and sometimes even the front office and try to pump up fans about next season after we got knocked out the playoffs.
Derrick, I am your fan and hope you'll have a very good season in '23.
This is my current take on the Derek Carr matter.
It's a game of chicken. Carr is under contract (a stupid one because it provided for this scenario). The Raiders don't owe Carr anything. They invested 9 nine years in Carr and he couldn't pay them back with a single playoff win. Sure, we can blame a dozen coaches for that, but Carr is the fall guy. I don't like that, but now it's up to the Raiders get maximum return for Carr at this moment.
IMO, cutting him should NOT be an option. I believe the Raiders should allow the guaranty deadline to pass and then negotiate a trade. Many teams need a QB1 and Carr is among the best available. He's worth at least one 1st round pick.
If Carr plays hardball and refuses a trade (as his contract allows), then the Raiders can bite the bullet and bring him back. There's continuity in bringing Carr back to try again with McDaniels. Meanwhile, draft a second tier QB and bring him into the system. This is what I imagined would happen before this thing blew up.
Raiders need to focus on defense, not this sideshow QB drama. They have Carr under contract. I don't think this thing is over, nor should it be. However, if Mark Davis is that desperate to rid the Raiders of their franchise QB, he will likely get exactly what they deserves... nothing!
At the next level, Davis will find that a market value contract for Tom Brady will drastically erode the Raiders ability to build a defense. If Mark Davis is fixated on Brady - who will be 46 later this year - the Raiders are likely to continue to spiral out of control.
There's an old adage, be careful what you wish for....
Anon said: "Raiders protected Derek Carr from injury, now it's time to cash in that investment. They should retain him until they get a fair trade offer."
The Raiders cannot trade him until March 15th. They have to make a decision to keep him or cut him by February 14th, at that time his salary becomes fully guaranteed. They have no option here but to cut him. The only thing is if they can get Derek to renegotiate the time and move it back a month. But Derek owes them nothing, he has already given them everything he needs to. He will not be renegotiating. Raiders lose and get nothing.
Nate, the Raiders don't need to negotiate anything with Carr, nor should Carr agree to aid the Raiders in that way. The Raiders just need to grow some balls and allow the guaranty to lapse. Carr can play hardball and refuse a trade but the Raiders still have him under contract. He wouldn't dare let Adams and other teammates down. Read my post above.
Raiders are not in the driver's seat here. Carr isn't coming back, the guy just wrote a letter to the Nation stating that very fact.
The Raiders have made it clear that they want to move on from Carr. Teams might be desperate enough to take on Carr's contract, but in all probability, all other teams will wait it out until Carr is released and negotiations will start with Carr and those teams.
What Raider Nation was hoping for, was that Carr would want to hang on to that contract and want a trade. But Carr has already said he wants his release so he can find a new deal with a new team. If the Raiders can't trade Carr under that contract, they will be forced to release him meaning no compensation. And if Carr leaves for no compensation, then this regime has really screwed up.
those were the days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlHkXkWxFgM
Carr saying goodbye or wanting a release has nothing to do with the Raiders making the right decision for the org. Carr doesn't have a choice. He's under contract. The Raiders make the call, and they can call him back next year if they so choose (or a worst-case scenario in a failed attempt to trade).
My contention is they prepare for Carr to return by allowing the injury guaranty to lapse, then try and facilitate a trade. They can even afford to kick in over $5M of Carr's salary next year (dead money) in exchange for an early-round pick(s). Plenty of teams looking for a QB1 and Carr is among the best available.
IMO, the Raiders should approach this as "no risk." Carr either gets traded or he comes back to play with his buddies! Done!
Moreover, if Raiders management can't figure this out and get draft compensation for Carr, they aren't worth squat. A simple release would reflect desperation by the Raiders. Desperate moves often lead to mistakes.
No-trade clause is not uncommon, and usually doesn't prevent a trade. That's where Carr has some leverage. He wants to play!
Carr isn't coming back. if a trade is not made by Feb. 15th, he gets released. If the Raiders don't release him, he is now on the books for the rest of that contract and it's obvious the team doesn't want to be on that hook, at least, to some it is. I would bet that almost all the teams that would want Carr, would rather redo that contract because teams would want to take that risk, much like the Raiders.
In what world would it be a good idea to bring him back? He wouldn't want to be there and it would just be a huge distraction. This isn't a video game, there is a lot more to it than plug and play. It's obvious that the team doesn't want to continue with that contract or with Carr. What is it you are missing here?
That's incorrect. The Raiders obligation is only a portion of his contract which becomes guaranteed on that date, not "the rest of his contract." And I'm not saying Carr will be back, only that the Raiders have options, and those options have nothing to do with the goodbye note Carr wrote or him wanting to be released, as you suggested.
The only distraction to bringing him back is his sensitivity and hurt feelings (which is a little much to assume - this is still the NFL, right?). I would guess Carr, Adams and Crosby would still jump at that chance.
Why can't the coaches and team evaluate Carr's season while also checking the market for demand for his services? Does that offend you?
I'm not predicting it will happen but there are lots of ways that Carr remains a Raider. Again, not saying it will happen, but anything is possible, and the Raiders control the narrative until they don't. This is not Carr's decision to make. He can reject a trade or holdout if he's retained. Those actions are in his purview.
Interesting to set the bar here.
The starting point (bottom) is that the Raiders release Carr outright, with no compensation. Some folks believe this is a necessity (due to financial risk), thus, the Raiders receive zero compensation.
The upside is that Zeigler and company get real compensation for moving Carr to another team, maybe even a first or second round pick.
My contention is that if the Raiders receive nothing, or very little, management has failed. Their initial failure will be the contract given to Derek Carr which did nothing to protect the team. I'm hoping they were smarter than that and this yields the team something in return.
Carr's outright release just adds to the failures of the 2022 season, which are many.
Current Contract
Derek Carr signed a 3 year, $121,500,000 contract with the Las Vegas Raiders, including a $7,500,000 signing bonus, $65,277,519 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $40,500,000. In 2023, Carr will earn a base salary of $32,900,000 and a workout bonus of $100,000, while carrying a cap hit of $34,875,000 and a dead cap value of $5,625,000. If the Raiders were to ask Derek to come back, they would be on the hook for the injury guarantee, 40 mill. This is why he was benched because they didn't want to pay the guarantee if he was hurt. Do you really believe the team would ask Derek to come back after telling him to go home? In what world? If he is still on the roster, he gets the guaranteed money owed on the contract. In what world would this team bring him back after what has transpired? IN WHAT WORLD?
If Carr was to come back, the team is on the hook for big money, Carr has stated he is gone. Do you really believe Carr would come back and everything would be ok? In what world? Do you really think Carr would agree to come back? In what world? What would the rest of the team think of the Raiders if they asked Carr to come back after telling him to go home? Your scenario is absurd, as usual.
So the rest of his contract doesn't become guaranteed? Glad we cleared that up.
I have to ask, did you miss the many times I wrote that I'm not suggesting Carr would be asked to come back? It's obvious that Carr was benched because the Raiders wanted the ability to avoid the guarantee (btw, media reported it was Carr who wanted to go home, not the other way around).
It's also fair that the Raiders would take time to evaluate Carr, including looking at their options for a trade which Carr ultimately controls. These things are ongoing. We don't know how that will play out.
Wasn't it you that wrote earlier that you love guys who spout how they know what's going on behind closed doors? Isn't that what you're doing?
Publicly, McDaniels and Zeigler both have had nothing but admiration for Derek Carr. The Raiders so far have acted on business decisions. You and Carr with his tearful goodbye act on emotion. In what world? In a business world, my friend.
I'm trying to be pragmatic, but I'm not suggesting I know anything that's going to happen.
The Raiders made the deal with Carr. Sure they probably regret it now, but at the time it was their intent and they believed it to be market circumstance. One way or another, they have to live with that.
I'm rooting for the Raiders to get this right. There are many scenarios, and I cannot categorically remove any of them for pure lack of knowledge and understanding.
Except for the Steelers game, does anyone really believe it was the Raiders offense that let the team down? If Carr's evaluation is measured, they may see that.
On the other hand, it has often been said that "it's only a problem if you have a solution." What's the solution? Dumping Carr is not a solution by itself... only a bigger problem.
McDaniels apparently has a complicated offense, which Carr struggled to grasp. By extension, there's probably only a short list of QBs who can work in his system and immediately have success. For all others, it may take 1-2 years to acclimate, and there are no guarantees.
Brady (playing this weekend in the playoffs with a team that presumably wants him back)
Garoppolo (on IR with season-ending injury)
Mac Jones (would require a trade with the Pats)
Stidham (not ready to be QB1)
Carr (already sent his tearful goodbye)
IMO, these are the guys McDaniels can work with in short order. Unless McDaniels has been given the luxury of time, this might be the list he's working from.
Outside this list, the Raiders have free agency and the draft, but what does that really mean for the Raiders in 2023?
The Raiders are actively shopping car right now. However given the ineptitude of management with the no trade clause it's hard to see that fool Ziegler getting anything for Carr he will probably end up being released. What we can count on for sure that who's ever playing quarterback next year will not be as good as Carr. Sandy
Tom Brady?
Hondo Carpenter is now suggesting the Raiders have a chance to get real compensation for Carr. He's one of those so-called "insiders."
NY do you really think Tom Brady is better then Derek Carr at this point a 46 year old Tom Brady playing behind a terrible offensive line with a terrible defense. Hondo is full of himself and crap. The only writer I trust is Vic Tafur. Sandy
The Raiders have a terrible history of making trades. Al was good at it but because of the 9 year slump fans felt he was beginning to slow down mentally and those were bad moves(Moss and Gruden were).
* Carr isn't elite but he's good . On the right team he'll be able to play game manager football and not have to carry the team. I just can't see the Raiders starting a rookie, trying to make him the next Brady or a better Carr.
Jimmy G.- would be o.k. if we had his replacement but another ex-Patriot with injury problems? no thanks.
T. Lance?- no, I think the 49ers will trade Jimmy G. and go with Lance. But he needs time and the Raiders don't need an ex-part time starter that needs to start over in a new system or is looked at as almost a rookie.
M. 'Matty Ice' Ryan- yes, he would be a great vet pick up to run the Raiders. He'll find a way to use those receivers.
M. Mariota YES! He might be more of an athlete but has the experience and is electrifying. If they could work on his limits/ other issues and his passing he could use those receivers to be a good QB.
M. Jones- No, don't if the Patriots want to trade him there must be somebody they want at QB more and Jones may have some problems moving the offense.
But who will the Pats' guys draft with those picks? You think they'll draft an elite player with a top 10(no# 7)?
Most teams want the best college players and star free agents- while others may feel that way but reject them to keep the salary cap in check and not have to deal with contract drama. others reject them to save money only having maybe, 1 expensive star on the team, and the Bellichick-like ideas that high character guys who are coached up and put in a system can win.
But about the way the Raiders sometimes make trades again:
The Pats' guys seem to think trading high draft picks for WRs' is o.k. especially if your QB played w/ him in college and might get a lot better with him but then they decide they don't want the QB(?).
Reggie's regime seemed to think it was o.k. to get rid on some of the only play makers they had for almost nothing they send a top KR/ WR to the Patriots.
Gruden/ Mayock out did everybody and traded for WRs', keeping none of them for long and losing a lot of draft picks.
Al was accused of ruining the Raiders and his last moves were heavily trashed. Now, he made a lot of trades('07-'11)- 1 was trading a future HOFer for a 4th round pick and another was trading a 1st rounder for a 30+ pro-bowler. But this guy made the pro-bowl and was a future HOFer.
the Pats' guys were 2nd mainly because they only made 2 trades. Getting a pro bowl WR doesn't look so good if you sent a 1st and 2nd for him. Getting your backup QB from your old team is o.k.
Reggie is 3rd, he did trade a star WR for a 5th round pick, and traded for a QB when he already had a pro-bowler. The new QB was soon let go.
Gruden/ Mayock shocked fans and sports world by trading almost all of the best young players then, ruining four out of 5 1st round draft picks they got from those trades.
* This is why the Raiders are in this situation, they want to keep doing the NFL thing won't try older/ newer ways to get top players(like spending more) and get their O going.
re-sign M. Mariota and make him starting QB. Raidernation please this classic QB stuff is old and dull. He might electrify this team.
let Jacobs walk- they should look for a faster RB.
draft for D- Raidernation tried to accuse Gruden of not being good at building a defense but the Pats' guys seem to be worse.
decide what kind of D they'll run- I think they should stick with a 4-3 because the other D(3-4) is o.k. but they may not want to spend on that.
don't give the Patriots players and draft picks- because they burn you a lot.
don't trade draft picks to the Steelers for WRs'.
keep the receivers you have- don't let teams con you out of F. Moreau or D. Adams.
NY, the whole point is not DC rest of contract. The Raiders do not have a lot of cap space coming into this season as they did last, when they could have made some big FA signings. To take a $40 million hit on Feb 14th, would leave them $22 million in cap space this offseason. Raiders do not have leverage for a trade unless DC renegotiates the date of guaranteed money. Raiders cannot make a trade until new year begins Mar 15th. The Raiders will more than likely have to cut Carr without compensation, something they realize but have said they are prepared to do.
Having a trade partner doesn't mean Carr approves.
Nate, Raiders have other money coming their way as other deals expire, as well as 11 draft picks (including compensatory picks). 2023 looks a lot different if all they need is a defense. Kicking Carr to the curb isn't their only play, and maybe not their best play. That's just my opinion. Nowhere here have I suggested I know what the Raiders will do, nor do I believe they are entirely backed into a corner. I am looking for them to think outside the box and get this right... but I am concerned that might be too much to ask of any Raiders management over the past 20 years.
BTW, the Raiders defense is not alone. The Chargers, with Mack, Bosa and Samuel Jr managed to blow a 27-0 lead yesterday.
Is no defense safe?
My point, NY, is Raiders do not have a lot of options in their decision with Carr. Carr has more control of what happens to him than the Raiders do, and indication is, he is not going to give them favors. Thats the cost of treating him like trash. Brady is not a shoe in to come to Raiders, and the Raiders do not have a back up plan. Zeigler made it cleae they will either get Carr to cooperate for a trade, or they will cut losses. Carr will not be Raiders' starter next season.
The NFL wants fans to be excited so they made rules to make it easier for teams to score- that's why defenses are being burned by these modern offenses.
Al had 1 of the most loaded teams in NFL history going into '03. Somehow they lost fans didn't think it was that serious because even the best teams sometimes lose after going to playoffs/ super bowl then they quickly win again. But Raiders kept losing and strangely, they got some of the best players in NFL history and loaded up on high draft picks but it didn't stop it. Media heavily criticized them and fans soon followed. The slump lasted 9 years and with the last chance to make the playoffs in Al's era they lose to a much less talented team when they were trying to honor Al who had passed earlier in the year.
R. McKenzie is made GM, fans support him, media hypes him. He says the team needs a rebuild and it may take 5 years to do it.
This makes it easier to stay employed and keeps fans from complaining too much. But they soon started doing it a lot. Reggie fired/ traded or released a lot of staff and players- fans still supported him. Well, despite the rebuild program there were issues that sucking a few years couldn't solve. Well they didn't decide who would hire the assistants(Reggie or D. Allen) and their drafts were average not finding elite players, they refused to sign star FAs' and didn't find better units than Al's except maybe the TE position.
J. Gruden and M. Mayock were hired with the hopes to build on Reggie's era(?) Mayock would be a good scout who'll learn to be a real GM while Gruden would teach Carr and run the O. The fans were pumped! What they missed was Gruden's actions continuing to reach in the 1st round, refusing to get speed except the usual position(WR) and trading away good players for draft picks. The team struggled and fans soon their old
* Nobody can explain why Al's Raiders lost and its' hard to believe they couldn't win with those rosters('03-'11).
Reggie was hired after experts gave MD advise- He had to rebuild the team; Some felt he did right and others felt he sucked. The fact is the league got inside before him, their plan?- fire most of Al's employees and erase the culture there. Reggie's era was cheap, refused to sign star FA's, had mediocre drafts and signed injury prone FAs'.
The Gruden/ Mayock program got going and fans thought it was a new era with a little old Raiders' culture. It got tired after high draft picks disappointed, business issues and problems with the D. Before the '21 season ended Gruden resigned(?) with a temp HC and Gruden's/ Mayock's work they went to the playoffs and Mayock was fired after the season.
The Pats guys were hyped and the fans were very pumped to get them. Some fans complained but were criticized by media/ Raidernation. Well, they acted like Al and traded high draft picks for a star player. They signed some good players but they also went model franchised and refused to sign star free agents. They've already upset some in Raidernation by getting rid of Carr. We'll see what they do with more money and room to make trades, sign FAs' and pick staff.
from Al's fan Anon to NY Raider.
My post was to you about why defenses can't seem to play well now these days.
You were writing about the Chargers loss and how defenses just don't play that well these days.
I wrote its' because the NFL has made rules to make it easier for offenses to score.
Nate, you speak in absolutes.
Raiders do not have a backup plan to Tom Brady? Really?
And Zeigler made it clear they will either get Carr to cooperate for a trade, or they will cut losses.
So McDaniels is saying they are evaluating Carr and 2022 but Zeigler is saying they are done with that evaluation and Carr is good as gone? Can you post a link to that?
I know there's more to it than the NFL changing some rules and moving the kickoff back five yards. We are seeing it wrt the Raiders. Carr rarely runs, and it was usually prompted by his coaches reminding him to look for openings.
Giants Daniel Jones ran for over 700 yards this year. Others like Mahomes, Fields, Hurts, Allen, etc. all run the ball. Stidham was successful running as well. This is the new generation and it's working for many teams.
That's why Tom Brady might not be the best option for LV. So I find it hard to believe the Raiders have no other plan but to sign Tom Brady. If true, that's incredibly lame. It's possible Brady doesn't even play next year.
I'm pretty sure the Raiders have not said anything about pursuing Tom Brady. Anything that is being reported is based on hearsay. And I doubt Zeigler is publicly reporting what they plan to do with Carr.
This thing still has a long way to go.
NY, here are several articles:
https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/news/las-vegas-raiders-dave-ziegler-derek-carr-jarrett-stidham-chase-garbers
https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/news/las-vegas-raiders-dave-ziegler-josh-mcdaniels-raiders-fans
https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/las-vegas-raiders-josh-mcdaniels-dave-zielger-mark-davis-tom-brady-mac-jones
All of these articles talk about how the Raiders are all in on Tom Brady (mainly being pushed by Mark Davis), if they don't get him, it is subpar QB's (Mac Jones, Jimmy G, Stidham) that will replace Carr until they find something better. There is no real solution if they don't get Brady. Ziegler can say all he wants that he will get Carr to cooperate, but it is no guarantee because Carr controls his destiny here contractually, not the Raiders. McDaniels and Ziegler pretty much have openly said his evaluation ended in Pittsburgh, which is why they benched him. Every Raiders' news outlet/beat writer is saying DC is done, and the Raiders have parted ways with him. Even though they want value for him in a trade, don't hold your breath.
Thanks, Nate. Appreciate the follow up. I'll so some reading later.
Another article, NY.
https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/las-vegas-raiders-derek-carr-dave-ziegler-tom-brady-josh-mcdaniels-mark-davis
My thoughts on what is shared here:
Article said, "He (Josh) felt like he had failed (Carr) as well." I feel like he did fail Carr. If he is a people guy, he should know how to coach people the way they respond. Respect doesn't equal relationship. It appeared to me he didn't want the relationship w/Carr, just the accolades.
A close game against KC doesn't, in my opinion, magically validate McDaniel's or his system. Who is calling him out? He made terrible coaching decisions all year and his defensive coordinator is awful. Carr didn't play well, but he is FAR from the only reason this team is bad. So basically...McD wasn't making Carr the scapegoat, but he was making Carr the scapegoat. The article sentiment that McDaniel's is a great coach and Carr just couldn't take his criticism; maybe McDaniel's hasn't proved he's a coach worthy of dishing that criticism out.
Here is my opinion. If Mark Davis wasn't impressed with Carr's play, he probably didn't want Carr, and wanted guys who would make it hard for him and run him out of town. It seems that Gruden and Bisaccia were guys who stood up to Mark about Derek; and let Derek lead. McDaniel's seemed to take all of that away from Derek and say, "I respect you, but I don't trust you to lead." Then ripped him to shreds, even when he played well. Josh McD continues to show he does not have the ability to be HC.
Apparently, Mark Davis is infatuated with Tom Brady. At least Dana White thinks so.
Carr had his worst year as a pro and IMO that's largely McDaniels fault. In fairness, McDaniels accepted blame after every loss. He did not point fingers at anyone all year until after the Steelers game when he said "they" needed to pass better, meaning Carr. If anything, he was too polite over the course of the season.
But you and others keep talking about the bad relationship between McDaniels and Carr, and other players on the team. I've watched post-game interviews all year long and players were very complimentary of McDaniels. After wins, players were gushing over the coaching.
Some here will not like this, but I disagree that Carr was mistreated. Benching him was a logical move, especially, if the Raiders plan on moving on, which it appears they do. Carr was not sent home but volunteered that on his own. At least that's how it was reported. You can't run a $5B organization and make decisions based on whose feelings might get hurt. That's as dumb as it sounds.
My biggest concern is that the Raiders have a plan. But I'm not going to assume they don't just because it's not been expressed. It's way too early for the Raiders to say anything of substance publicly. Zeigler's comments are white noise, and media are all reaching at straws right now. That's why I find it difficult to speak about absolutes when it comes to a plan, or lack thereof.
Tom Brady is playing tonight. I plan to watch and see what might be the Raiders next QB1. Brady set career highs in attempts and completions this year, completing almost 67%. 25 TDs sounds average but he had 40 or more TDs in 2020 and 2021. Also, his 4,700 yards this year is pretty average for him.
Brady is clearly the exception to the modern QB.
Hondo Carpenter is full of himself but, true or not, this is an incredible chronology of the Raiders season. There are many "insider" type comments from players, and much of it makes sensem certainly the timeline and Carr's struggles. For me, it's a tough time of year to believe anything coaches or management say. This article seems more direct, from the beat writer and players.
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/what_went_wrong_with_the_las_vegas_raiders_derek_carr/s1_16640_38359833
Carr suffered his worst season as a pro. Seems his decision-making was in question. Honestly, it didn't seem like players pushed back very hard when Carr was benched, including Adams. For Crosby, it was business as usual... just go out and play.
Nothing written is going to be 100% true, but this hits home on many points.
NY Raider
True, there's more to it than that, NFL defenses sometimes make mistakes in games or don't do their homework. But the running QB thing? most teams don't like their QBs' to run a lot. I don't know if running QBs' throw TDs' passes better than the pocket passers but I do know most look for pocket passers over running QBs.
It is almost impossible for a DB to cover a WR in the NFL these days.
NFL defenses have some kind of rule or they all are stupid and we know that isn't true because they all use these terrible defenses called ZONES that give offenses all kinds of spots to find a WR.
Things they can't help is the size of the receivers has gotten bigger since the 90s' were some are bigger than tight ends and tight ends have gotten a little faster.
The flow of the young college and NFL assistant OC's and head coaches who have all kinds of ideas to move the offense. For some reason the D hasn't changed much other than the zone defenses.
The NFL wants' more scoring and it wasn't happening with NFL defenses so they changed the rules.
1. Press coverage is tightly screened and watched a DB can hardly touch a WR these days.
2. D-linemen CANNOT move anymore they used to be able to flinch or lurch as long as they didn't go off sides but they can't these days.
Brady not being the best move? Maybe not, but maybe not Jimmy G., M. Jones or some other young QBs' in the league. But why are(allegedly) they so set on Brady?
The thing is NY you guys will complain now but after media and local sports writers tell you how ungrateful Raidernation is for questioning the new Raiders and how great Brady or jones might be and what new assistants and draft picks they have to help win you'll go for it.
That's 1 reason SOME teams didn't go t
Don't let the NFL con you if Brady comes its' about money for them and huge corporations that partner with them.
Brady will sell a lot of products and bring a lot of fans to Las Vegas. That's good for the league and partners to make money and for the fans if a super star comes and they win but it looks shady and doesn't seem like it has anything to do with Raidernation and other fans. It seems like some kind of plan to make money off Las Vegas and sale a lot of NFL merchandise. Raidernation wants to win but why not with hard work and their own plans not letting the league come up with a con job to make money in L.V.
But the legal press(DB coverage) is very much unfairly managed by the refs to make sure receivers have the advantage.
The top four rushing QB's teams were all in the playoffs this year.
Lamar Jackson - 764 yards (his injury replacement Huntly is a runner too).
Josh Allen - 762 yards
Jalen Hurts - 760 yards
Daniel Jones - 708 yards
These QBs made honorable mention. All run when needed, and all made the playoffs:
Geno Smith - 366
Patrick Mahomes - 358
Trevor Lawrence - 291
Joe Borrow - 257
Dak Prescott - 182
Derek Carr was at the bottom of the list with 102 yards. What's crazy about that is Carr is a gifted athlete. He's struggled all year with decision-making and, apparently, his lack of running to extend drives is on that list.
Of QBs who do not run, only Justin Herbert (147) and Tom Brady (not posted) made the playoffs. Herbert is already eliminated. Brady is facing elimination tonight.
Not sure these stats are just a coincidence. Successful QBs are usually mobile.
NY, successful quarterbacks and teams that win the Super Bowls and playoff games have quarterbacks who can stand in the pocket and deliver the ball down the field. If they can run that's a bonus. Go down the list of Super Bowl winners and they're pretty much all pocket passers. Freaks of nature like Mahomes of Josh Allen are great quarterbacks first because of their arm and then their legs are an added bonus. Sandy
True, but QBs also need to make smart decisions on the fly. Daniel Jones is a "blue collar QB" and makes it work. There has to be some compromise. Carr does not run but he could. If you read the link I posted, it makes reference to players suggesting Carr demonstrated poor decision making all season long. Everybody loves the man, but that might explain why there wasn't more pushback from the players when Carr was benched.
On a side note, after watching the game last night, I am hopeful Tom Brady will just retire. The scary thing is, the Bucs actually have a defense.
This is far from over. With Carr, the Raiders could continue to struggle. Without Carr, the Raiders could be facing a multi-year setback which could easily disenfranchise stars like Adams and Jacobs, maybe even Crosby. The Raiders are treading on thin ice right now.
Why do Raiders have to get a high draft pick for Carr ?
I think Raiders would be better off getting some live bodies that are ready to go right away.
How about Carr to Washington for Chase Young. Washington needs a Qb, and maybe would trade one of their good defense players to get one.
Raiders need defense, not high draft picks that they waste anyway.
Ghost Ship, nice thought but no way on earth the Raiders get a top 10 DE on a rookie contract. The reason why is they have zero leverage, if thye had traded Carr a year ago maybe but now its too late. Anyway per NY I am more worried about who will be our QB rather that what the Raiders get for Carr. Signing Brady would be a ridiculous mistake. Anyone else who is available is a sgtep down from Carr that includes Garapollo, Mac Jones etc. I assuming Lamar Jackason and Rogers are not available or will cost way too many draft picks. Unfortunetly the best option may be drafting someone and resigning Stidnham which sounds depressing.
Sandy
IMO, the Raiders would have to allow Carr's guarantees to kick in before they have any leverage in a trade, and even that requires Carr's approval. That's very high-risk if they absolutely don't want Carr to play for them.
If you look at TD production among college QBs, it drops off significantly after the first couple prospects. We shouldn't expect the Raiders to hit Brock Purdy gold.
Listening to Tom Brady's post-game interview, he bid farewell to the season, not his career. IMO, he's either playing for the Bucs or the Raiders next year. With the Raiders, assuming Jacobs is retained, Brady would have a running game (Bucs were dead last in run offense).
Lots of moving parts.
Bucs were last because Fournette was injured most of the season, and was ineffective last night because I don't think he was "football ready" coming off his injury. If he stays with the Bucs, Bucs will have to get help on O-Line. Coming to the Raiders, they need help on Defense, and a few spots on O-Line.
Also, Brady made some serious mistakes and reads last night. He had a wide open WR on a swing pass for big yardage when the score was 12-0, and threw it into the sidelines, not even close to being catchable. Brady did not look good last night, does not have the same arm strength he once had. He ain't it for the Raiders to pursue, but I think they are stupid enough to do it.
At this point, I'd rather have Lamar Jackson with a good back up like Stidham. I am willing to place money that Carr hits Free Agency. My favorite landing spots are Tennessee, Seattle, and possibly Carolina and Arizona which are dependent on HC and Coordinators. Honorable mention is the Ravens.
NY, I don't think Hondo is patting himself on the back as much as he is calling out fellow reporters like Vinny B of the LV Journal Review, for constantly throwing him under the bus for his reporting. Hondo takes a lot of heat from other beat writers for his content, but he hasn't been wrong in anything he has reported behind the scenes. I think his pats on the back are calling out the other beat writers for saying he is a hack.
One cool thing. When I was 15, and lived in So Cal, there was an event at a, then, new mall in Moreno Valley, CA. The flyers announced Howie Long was going to be there and sign for fans. I had drawn a picture of Howie to autograph and my dad and I went. When we arrived, it was announced Howie would not make it due to a death in his family, and Bob Golic was there to sign. All that to say, this last Christmas, my wife got me a Raiders mini-helmet autographed by Howie Long. Howie is my favorite Raiders' player of all time, which is why I put 75 after my moniker. It made my year. Personally, I've had a rough year, and glad 2022 is behind me. Just wanted to say thank you to everyone on here because this place has been an escape for me. Take, I appreciate ya keeping the light on. Hope you and Raider Nation on here are well, and remains well this 2023. Just Win, Baby!
To put simply, Brady looked as bad in the first half of last night's game as Carr looked against the Steelers in the game which led to his benching. Maybe it's time to bench Brady.
I am truly perplexed as to what the Raiders plan is.
Nate, Howie was awesome he was my brother's favorite player he had a big poster on the wall with Howie in action wearing the neck collar. I remember when dick enberg was doing Raider games he would say handsome strong Howie Long.
Here are two great videos
https://youtu.be/CppgwIgrOiU
https://youtu.be/PARENn-vuZM
Sandy
Crosby is a Raider to his core. He is next in line as a Raiders legend. Frankly, Carr was too, until McDaniels arrived. Carr is very capable when given latitude to improvise. Apparently, McDaniels doesn't like that about Carr.
If you move off from Carr, you gotta have a plan.
Can't hitch the wagon to Stidham in a division with Mahomes, Herbert and Wilson.
So what's the plan.
The plan is to sit back and see what happens, for the fans. If the new regime does not have a plan, or are flying by the seat of their pants, then we can see that this regime is another imposter. They should have a plan drawn up before letting Carr go. Like my Pops always told me as a child, don't quit your job until you have another one to start. Same goes here, don't throw out the starting QB unless you have a plan to fill that role with someone as good or better. This new regime has a lot of work to do, get out the popcorn.
I've been saying it's only a problem if you have a solution. The solution part is missing here.
If I'm Zeigler or McDaniels and I just watched Tom Brady against the Cowboys, I have serious doubts that Brady at age 46 (in August) is a better option than Carr.
They have to get this right. McDaniels will never get another HC gig.
NY,
They have boxed themselves into a corner. Any QB such as Brady, Garopollo, Mac Jones, Mayfield, Brisset etc. is at best lateral move but more liely a step back from Carr. If they draft and start a rookie or Stidnham it is a full rebuild. The Raiders are in a weird position too many holes to win a superbowl but enough talent with a competent QB they make the playoffs.
I would advocate for Rodgers to try and win with the current group but that carries significant risk especially if they give up major assets. Lamar Jackson not my favorite QB because of his lack of pocket passing but he is a top player better than Carr and only 26 he could be a long term solution but it would cost the Raiders dearly in both cash and draft assets which would hamper improving the team..
Given the job insecurity of Ziegler or McDaniels I think they end up signing a vetran as a stop gap to keep the team competitive and from falling apart and drafting someone in the 2nd or 3rd round and hope they get lucky. That is a pretty miserable formula.
Sandy
Let's not kid ourselves, McDaniels and Zeigler have an out. Mark Davis may soon be driving the Tom Brady train into town, which could relieve McDaniels and Zeigler from ultimate responsibility, at least give them a stay if Brady doesn't work out.
One thing that bothers me is that Zeigler and McDaniels reportedly secured their jobs with the Raiders under the premise they could win with Derek Carr. Carr proceeded to have his worst season in 8 years.
So their tenure with the Raiders started with poor judgement... which has already cost the Raiders one year.
It's not like Carr didn't have a body of work to evaluate. Watching this season, it's pretty clear McDaniels did not look at (or ignored) game film of what Carr does well, e.g., shotgun, hurry-up offense, call plays at the line. One or more of these elements usually existed when Carr's had the most success in his career. Bissacci gave Carr the most latitude, and Carr quickly excelled in that environment.
The so-called "insider accounts" paint McDaniels as OCD about film review and Carr overly sensitive about constructive criticism.
What a mess. Honestly, dysfunction appears alive and well in LV, just like it was in Oakland.
Some things never change.
The flip side is that Carpenter also reported that some players found the McDaniels process refreshing, informative and equally distributed. No favoritism. I can see that as potentially meaningful, but the proof is in the results. 6 wins!
Hondo Carpenter is an ass. When he is not self aggradizing. He is acting as a shill for management---that comes through loud and clear in the foolish article you mentioned NY.
Assuming they can not get Lamr or Rogers, I am warming to the idea of a rookie and Stidneham. At least then they will have the resources cash and draft wise to fix the rest of the team principally every poistion on defense and the o-line.
Sandy
I'm not suggesting you believe everything he wrote. Even if only half true, the Carpenter article is revealing. His timeline and public observations (about games, etc.) seem on target. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle, which Carpenter actually eluded in his article.
However, I agree with your QB sentiment. Stidham and rookie development as a solution might outweigh a lateral or lesser move in free agency. I like the idea of maxing resources on the defense (and bringing Jacobs back!).
The key will be drafting the right QB. Raiders don't have a great history of drafting QBs and developing them. Maybe that changes this year.
Not sure if this was discussed before but it's important. Patrick Graham is going to be a head coach at the Senior Bowl. That couldn't come at a better time for the Raiders.
Clearly, the Raiders need to hit in this draft. Hopefully, the days of reaching for players well beyond their talents are over. Adding another Ferrell, Arnette, Abram, etc. can only lead to similar results in 2023.
The Brady show will be about MONEY and POWER! They'll use the SB to get more businesses and corporations to invest in the NFL and wealthy people to invest, do business or even join the league.
Las Vegas could be the jackpot! it already is but I mean for big businesses, t.v. and the NFL.
When Al was in Oakland and L.A. he was just as greedy for money as any owner but NEVER put that above his Raiders. He would want to make his own business deals but even if he was o.k. with NFL rules(revenue sharing) he wouldn't let them use his team to help scam NFL fans. If the Raiders can't win then he'd keep reloading until he needed help or started winning again.
He wouldn't be happy playing in L.V. the deal the NFL made to move them there or with the Raiders being a side show made to make the NFL wealthier.
He wouldn't be happy with a scheme to make money instead of running and building up the Raiders without the help of the NFL.
Building your own team, winning or losing with your own decisions. Trying to feel good about something. Not bringing in NFL people and a star QB who really doesn't fit the system-, to get the ratings up and getting corporations to invest in Las Vegas with more merchandising, retail and entertainment companies coming for super bowl.
Fans will be supporting a scam and then after the SB the league will show you just what they think about Raidernation by pulling the rug right out from them if/ when T. Brady leaves.
Once they make their money they'll probably try and get MD to sell and, get ready for a T. Brady retirement. True, we may win playoff games and maybe go to the super bowl but it will not be like when Al built those great teams and worked hard to find the players and coaches to help build a winner.
Fans should protest and tell the league to leave the Raiders alone! we love the team and don't need a scam to prove it.
So much speculation out there. Is it possible that Aaron Rogers could be throwing to Devante Adams next season in a Raiders uniform? What a freak that would be.
I respect Tom Brady, but I also understand why many Raiders fans hate him. I don't blame Brady for the tuck game, that was clearly officiating. Brady went on to be the best QB in football history. I can't imagine there's much debate about that.
Given a solid pocket to work in, and with the Raiders skill players, either one of these guys could tear up the NFL in scoring.
Raiders have plenty of resources to sign one of these guys, bolster their O-line and rework the defense in one off-season. Honestly, it should be a slam dunk!
I believe this can happen, and it's probably all that keeps me going right now. The thought of another "rebuild" after 20 straight failed seasons is depressing.
Brady is 1 of the best QBs' in NFL history but he isn't the guy to lead this team past '24. The Raiders need a QB that is a vet but young enough to lead a little longer than Brady might be able to or want to.
Jimmy G./ would be o.k. but I feel he would want to go to a winning team. he also would want to have a D to help win games.
T. Lance/ will probably get his starting job back in S.F.,
L. Jackson/ will probably stay in Balt. and can he stay in the pocket and use those receivers?
M. Jones/ the Patriots have burned the Raiders before and if they are selling Jones maybe there are issues between them and him. Raiders should stay away from the Patriots.
M. Mariota/ would be a great re-signing. Raider wouldn't have to do a lot of O-line building he just needs to become a better passer. Then, we get him more TEs' for short passes and a defense and we might have a good QB.
'Matty Ice'- a very good move to bring in a vet. Getting older but young enough to stay for a few years and make Raiders a scary offense with the receivers he could use.
* Best chance to make the playoffs with QB since '03:
1. Palmer/ the best because he was already a pro-bowler and 1 of the NFL's best QBs' when Hue traded for him.
2. Collins/ not a great QB but played in a lot of playoff games and picked Oakland to mess up at. He NEVER had the personnel with other teams he had in Oakland.
3. D. Carr/ A very good QB, not a top 1. Still young and can win with good front office and talent around him. Raiders should keep him- but he would be a huge sign up/ choice for a team with talent that doesn't have a starting QB.
4. J. Campbell/ Al thought he was a good QB and things looked good until an injury and Reggie.
5. D. Culpepper/ once a star with Vikings was still good with the Dolphins and Raiders.
6. B. Grodkowski/ a game manager QB that uses talent around him.
7. A. Brooks/ a good QB, put up big numbers in N.O. another guy that NEVER had the kind of talent the Raiders had.
8. TP2/ a wild cat QB who Reggie didn't allow to grow into an average QB but outstanding wild cat QB.
9. J. Stidham/ looks good, played with T. Brady and learned from McDaniels.
10. M. Schuab/ with Al's talent would've been a good QB who could sometimes have big games.
11. M. Leinart/ was supposed to be a star. is drafted and is later labeled a bust. then signs as a backup and later signs with Raiders and has to deal with Reggie's roster.
12. M. Flynn/ ? did good as a back up but as a starter had problems. as a game manager surrounded by Al's talent might be able to have winning season.
13. R. Johnson/ Al signed him and he played a few games. He had the tools but never really did much. Was a lot like C. Palmer in size and went to same school(USC) but didn't play as good.
14. Tui/ just didn't put it all together but was a fun player to watch.
15. M. McGloin/ had to be the guy used to keep TP2 on the bench. wasn't ready to start but Reggie threw him in. he was an inspiring QB but the new Raiders used him as excuse not to let TP2 play. As soon as TP2 was traded they let McGloin go.
16. C. Cook/ did well in college but wasn't able to become an NFL stater. had to start a playoff game. after playoff game stayed a short time with Raiders.
Raidernation! the Raiders really need to take time before making moves on the QB and 1 way is to give Carr time to get another meeting with the Pats' guys and for maybe, the Raiders to tell the Pats'guys to keep Carr.
AFC West QBs'
Super Bowl players:
K. Stabler
P. Mahomes
L. Dawson
S. Humphreys
C. Morton
J. Elway
P. Manning
R. Gannon
J. Plunkett
D. Lamonica
super bowl QBs' drafted by their SB teams:
K. Stabler- Raiders
P. Mahomes- K.C.
S. Humphreys- Chargers
super bowl winners(QBs'):
K. Stabler
P. Mahomes
L. Dawson
J. Elway
P. Manning
J. Plunkett
1st AFC West super bowl QB
L. Dawson
1st AFC West SB winning QB
L. Dawson
1st AFC West SB winning QB drafted by their SB team:
K. Stabler
facts:
Pat Mahomes was the 2nd AFC West SB winning QB drafted by his SB team.
J. Elway was drafted by the Colts
C. Morton played with Dallas and NYGs'.
R. Gannon played w/ NE, Minn and KC.
L. Dawson was drafted by the Steelers
P. Manning was drafted by the Colts.
D. Lamonica played with the Bills.
J. Plunkett played with the Patriots and 49ers.
fact:
K. Stabler was the 1st QB to win a SB who was drafted by an AFC West team.
P. Mahomes was the last AFC West QB drafted by his SB team.
it took K.C. 44 years to win another SB with the QB they drafted after K. Stabler after the '76 season.
As if I couldn't be more depressed about this season, that list of past Raiders QBs is very depressing. When the best of Raiders QBs on that list played in their heyday, the Raiders had a defense. The Raiders will once again need a defense before any QB can truly be successful. For some reason, that notion has escaped the Raiders for decades.
In terms of Derek Carr, IMO he is only viable if given latitude to improvise without harsh criticism or micromanaging. Josh McDaniels is not going to allow that.
The Raiders had a huge head start on their coaching search last year after Gruden got canned.
The Raiders, a playoff team, ended up with McDaniels. The pathetic small-market Jacksonville Jaguars got Doug Pederson.
Jags also drafted Josh Allen and Trevor Lawrence with their first round picks in the same drafts that the Raiders selected Clelin Ferrell and Alex Leatherwood.
Apparently, Carr sent out a tweet that he'd like to tell the "whole truth" but wants to "move on" instead. Sorry but that's a bit too much drama for a guy about to make $40M in one season. In fairness, the Raiders have remained professional and have been complimentary of Carr. Carr's benching, while certainly not ideal, was necessary for financial reasons and based on his performance. Again, in fairness, it could not have been more justified.
This season really spiraled on the Raiders. However, there are players, like Jacobs, who reportedly have said the team has "never" been better coached or more focused. Some players appreciate and like the process that appears responsible for Carr wanting to leave.
In short, McDaniels head coaching career is at stake. He deserves to have "his QB" whoever that might be. I'm guessing it's Tom Brady. That's a gut punch for many Raiders fans, and they will jump all over it if the Raiders fail again next year. I'm staying open to whatever makes the Raiders a playoff contender.
What made the Raiders a playoff contender was Gruden and Carr. Sandy
Sandy, I understand your admiration for Gruden, but Gruden was not with the Raiders when they made their impressive and improbable playoff run. The dynamic between Bisaccia and Carr was much different than Gruden and Carr. With Bisaccia, Carr was freelancing much more.
It's McDaniels micromanaging that is largely responsible for Carr leaving now. In just two short season, this dynamic with Carr has played out from one extreme to the other, and we can see the results.
NY, Carr played his best football under Gruden he felt appreciated by Gruden and they had a connection. If you check the stats from when Rich was coach he fell off a little bit, I also attribute a bit of that to the Henry Ruggs situation as the offense was really nicely balanced when he was on the field. I'm not sure about this whole micromanaging freelancing thing to be honest I haven't looked at it that closely. What I don't need to look closely at is McDaniels it's a bad coach with losing records in the two places he's been Carr aside McDaniels was lacking as a coach across the board. You're right I do admire Gruden he was a true Raider a tough guy was building a culture and most importantly had a winning record.
Sandy
Are you dismissing what Rich Bisacci accomplished last year? The last four games of the season (8 games after Gruden resigned) got the Raiders into the playoffs. Gruden II was 22-31 with the Raiders and left after only 5 games into the 2021 season. Gruden had his share of failures, not the least of which was a stunning period of draft busts.
What bothered me most about Gruden's time was the lack of accountability. That's changed under McDaniels and Zeigler, who will be fighting for their professional lives this off-season.
For what it's worth, the NFL has another crop of new coaches that turned around teams in short order. Why are we always stuck waiting 10 years, and why would that be acceptable to anyone, e.g., ownership, management, coaching or fans?
Sandy, you may get your wish if McDaniels doesn't come thru.
https://www.raidersbeat.com/insider-on-the-idea-of-jon-gruden-returning-to-the-raiders-wouldnt-shock-me/
Only the Raiders could go from no accountability to full accountability back to no accountability.
But I would guess the NFL will try and find more emails before they watch that happen.
NY Raider, waiting for years(like 10) to win? why would that be acceptable to anyone?: Because they(media) told you so that's why! Every time the media tells you to support a new regime no matter what the negatives or questions are about them you go along with it.
They've con you into believing guys like Al, Eddie D or J. Jones are the wrong way and only the model franchise way is the best way to win.
You supported Reggie because legends allegedly gave MD advise to hire him, that's normal, and makes sense they should know but after about 2 years of Reggie you should've seen that something wasn't working. When Gruden II came we thought we had our winning formula but we didn't see that the league had sent him here and he wasn't allowed to do everything he wanted.
Once again he was pressured to reach so that the Raiders would look like a Patriot like team instead of drafting the elite college players.
Now, you question the Pats' guys and might be really upset and complaining and protesting to the Raiders about them but as soon as the media/ Raiders hype some draft pick, free agent of new assistant coach(es) you'll support them again.
* When Al's ex-players/ coaches talked about Reggie's regime the media and Raidernation attacked them:
S. Routt: was asked by media about the Raiders and he made statement about them; it wasn't bad against Reggie but a little criticism. Local media and Raidernation attacked his comments. When they went to KC their 1st play was a bomb on Routt's side which he picked off. After the game media claimed the Raiders beat Routt but the fact he picked them and played good against them showed the new Raiders and Raidernation were the 1's being petty in this issue.
T. Kelly wasn't resigned and he went to the Patriots. When the media asked him if he was happy to be out of Oakland he didn't criticize the team. The local media who for years claimed he was overpaid if not overrated hyped his size and pass rush skills.
some of the ex-Raiders' legends were worried that the media/ NFL were trying to make Al look bad. The media had articles on some of the claims but mostly ignored them.
assistant coach Randy- the 1 coach Cable attacked- said if the Patriots had the Raiders' talent they would score much more points. The media thought that was silly sense the Raiders didn't have much talent.
This was Al's regime '09 or '10.
J. Veldheer was a pro bowler and planning on leaving for the Cardinals. Reggie claimed he "didn't want to be a Raider", Veldheer denied it. But this case you could say both sides didn't really make a case.
Reggie was getting rid of Al's players but Veldheer wasn't just stalling and giving time for the Raiders or Cardinals. So both may've been right in some areas but they didn't prove the facts and its' a very hard thing to prove and get right.
Actually my first choice for coach as mentioned before McDaniels was hired is David Shaw my second choice is Jim Harbaugh. Sandy
Anon, you have me confused with someone in a position to make decisions. The media don't "con" me into anything. I have no choice but to roll with the punches, mostly gut punches courtesy of Mark Davis and the Raiders (and the NFL for sabotaging the Raiders last regime).
These decisions are outside my purview and well above my pay grade.
What I find ironic is how you often fall back to past players and/or historical events, like the Raiders should learn from their past. Yet the events and players you mention, IMO, mostly reflect a continuation of the problems the Raiders face even now.
The Raiders ceiling for the past 20 years has been losing in the wildcard round, and that's limited to two chances. Not sure we can label that a coincidence anymore.
The Raiders incompetence spans decades (and two generations). McDaniels and Zeigler are on deck, Year 2 in a long line of HC/GM duos trying to break the ceiling.
I don't get to make the call. I'm only trying to make sense of it and perhaps find a bright spot here and there. It's not easy.
Raidernation/ fans don't make decisions?:
When the Raiders hired Reggie media/ NFL claimed this was the start of a new era and how they would win. Oh, he'd get rid of overpaid players, bring in passionate guys and bring discipline and get guys not trying to cause contract drama.
Then media told you how much in the past Al was. how the NFL had the more modern/ better system to build a winner. That being cheaper/ managing the salary cap and working with whatever the league wants is what we should support. Some in Raidernation/ NFL fans questioned it but many supported it.
When media started hyping Reggie and telling fans about the NFL's
Yea NY, many fans do make decisions and were conned into:
1. spending money on mediocrity that acts
2. believing that an inexperienced owner, inexperienced GM and inexperienced HC was better than a guy who'd been 1 of the best ever NFL men ever('12).
3. that the Raiders were so messed up that it would take a 5 year rebuild to start winning again.
4. that new stadiums help pay for or bring in expensive star free agents.
5. that moving to Las Vegas was better than staying in Oakland. that
ceiling? really?: The Raiders have been under a ceiling since '03! they've been under a glass ceiling were:
1. all 31 teams can succeed except them.
2. any system is basically o.k. if salaries are kept low. but the looking for big, fast, athletic guys(Al) just isn't going to work.
3. that everybody bought in to rebuild Raiders is a modern NFL person- especially if from a winning program, even if they weren't the 1's mainly running that program, probably can do better than Al('03-'11) and bring new ideas to rebuild the Raiders.
ceiling NY? The Raiders had a ceiling and usually could at least win more games if not make the playoffs. sometimes they broke the ceiling with a loaded roster and working hard to win.
The Raiders lost and you have that to throw in my face but I have questions. If in 9 years a team can't win it has to be something wrong but if they had talent and it really shows then couldn't something be wrong with the media/ Raidernation's claims as to why the Raiders in their slump had:
A top 10 secondary/
A top 5 DL and pass rush/
the best overall special teams in the NFL/
A top 20 running game/ really a top 10
overall very good WR corps/ depending on what year the Raiders have had some outstanding WRs(D. Moore, L. Murphy, J. Porter, R. Moss, J. Rice and T. Brown '03-'11).
Now NY, just how many teams had that kind of talent over a 9 year period? Yes right, few of them but somehow some average-good teams made the playoffs while Al didn't!
Mediocre-good teams can win/ make the playoffs but a talent-loaded team can't- in a PARITY league? really NY?!
Ceiling no the NFL has had a glass ceiling when some teams got special treatment or some NFL people upset the league there might be some problems the league makes for that team. Al was under a glass ceiling, he just found a way to break it, the NFL was feuding with him for decades and they may've been doing things to keep the Raiders from winning more than they did.
The ceiling for ALL NFL team is this if you don't cooperate you may have some problems getting more revenue deals and winning.
As if they should learn for their past?:
Al looked for bigger, faster, athletic guys, Raidernation/ media knew he bought in average-good high character guys too but they were attacking him not being positive about him. In the past the Raiders had their own plans, a culture, stood up for the game/ the players. "As if they should learn from the past"? NY Raider!
A lot of Bills' media and fans are commenting how Josh Allen needs help around him to win. Rumor is the Bills are going to go all in to pursue Josh Jacobs to help in the backfield, and beef up some of their o-line and db. Sean McDermott said that he is going to evaluate all aspects of their game, and the only evaluation is on their last game. He called out Josh Allen and said he needs to step up and play better in those situations.
What I noticed was how much Bills' players were slipping in the snow, but the Bengals seemed to have good footing. I wonder if the Bills had the right cleats. Remember in '91 when the Raiders' didn't bring the right cleats against Buffalo in a snow game? I wonder if the equipment manager ever got the boot after that. How can you not have the right cleats for snow? Baffles my mind.
The bottom line, and what this has to do with the Raiders, Mark needs someone to help him evaluate what they need to improve as a football team, and in the front office. I believe he has the person to help with the front office now. I felt Reggie was the guy to help with football side of it, and he let him go. I think Dave Zeigler can be that guy, but I'm not sure Josh McDaniel is the coach the Raiders need. The Head Coaches who are winning right now are guys like Andy Reid, Doug Pederson, Sean McDermott, Mike McDaniels, Brian Dabol, Nick Sirianni, and others who are building game plans around the strengths of their roster. This is why Jim Harbaugh is so intriguing to me. System coaches need 3 or 4 years, guys like Andy, Doug, Sean, etc start winning right away. This is what Al understood about coaching. This is what Reggie was trying to build with first: Dennis Allen, but realized Allen was a system guy. Jack Del Rio is a build around the strengths coach, so is Ron Rivera. There are "system" coaches who win, like Sean Payton, Sean McDermott, etc; but once their system is figured out, or they lose their key piece, they begin to lose immediately. Raiders biggest mistake with Del Rio was letting Bill Musgrave go, and not getting a true D-Coordinator. But Reggie was building the O-line and D-line and LB corp, which I think were the biggest needs at the time, and are still somewhat; then Gruden dismantled to build his system, and Raiders started flailing since. This is what is frustrating to me. It isn't difficult to do this, but the Raiders continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
Anon, I disagree that fans have a say, or that media is somehow involved in the Raiders bad decisions (if that's what you're suggesting).
Remember when fans were so fed up with Al's decision-making that some fan(s) organized a fund and paid for a billboard to beg AL to change his ways and hire a GM.
Fast forward, I don't know any Raiders fans who wanted the Raiders to move to LV. The first choice was always to stay in Oakland, where they belonged.
As for players, the numerous players mentioned in your posts don't all intersect, so the team(s) and/or era(s) which you refer to seems random. It's like random players that you want us to assemble in hope to prove the Raiders were better than they actually were.
We're never going to know if Mike Tyson could have beaten Mohammad Ali. But like the players in your posts, both these guys are in the rearview mirror.
Here's the great Tim Brown emphasizing what I've said many times here about needing a QB that can run when needed.
"...I just think the league is moving to a point where you have to have a quarterback that’s able to move around and get some things done with his feet every once in a while." (Tim Brown)
The context of this statement was that he didn't think at age 46 Brady was the answer for LV. Interestingly, Brown's statement would also almost certainly exclude Derek Carr, who rarely runs. Brown went on to say Joe Burrower was the closest to modern-day pocket passer but even he can run when needed.
Burrower is a gamer. That's what the Raiders need! Brock Purdy is a gamer. Jalen Hurts and Patrick Mahomes. These guys are all gamers who led their teams and advanced in the playoffs.
Carr has had plenty of obstacles to overcome in his career but he has never proven he can do that. Nine years is a long time to not win a playoff game, regardless of the circumstances. Clearly, McDaniels thought he had something in Carr that, as it turned out, he did not.
Borrow! Not Burrower. lol Sorry, Joe!
NY Raider, The 1 thing that you can't get around is a word- PARITY it give a mediocre team a better chance to win because some things were made easier for teams to add more talent faster. It's "Any given Sunday" and a "Level playing field" giving almost all teams a chance to win. But if you already have a lot of talent then shouldn't you have a much better chance to win?
The Ravens, Panthers and the Giants are o.k. but they weren't the best of SB teams but they went to them. None of them had the personnel Oakland had and none went on a long losing streak. Some playoff teams did go into slumps after their drive but never 9 years.
As for Al's QBs'('03-'11) here are some facts about them and maybe why Al got them:
K. Collins took both the Panthers and Giants to a SB. Those teams were good not great other than Manning, J. Tuck and a few WRs' and Carolina WR S. Smith and their D these weren't elite teams.
A. Brooks put up big numbers with the Saints.
D. Culpepper came back from a terrible knee injury to play good for the Dolphins and Raiders and looked like an o.k. guy to have as a starter.
C. Palmer was a pro-bowl QB he was 1 of the best in the NFL. Raidernation can call him pick 6 if they want but you can't say he wasn't a top QB.
TP2 didn't need to start he was scary and a threat to score anywhere. Do you think K.C. or conservative Denver would've trade him for no good reason and next to nothing? No! that was Raidernation that decided he wasn't good enough to keep. Didn't seem strange that a teams as bad as Reggie's Raiders didn't want to use him as a wild cat when they had NOTHING exciting or scary on offense?
J. Campbell, Al thought a lot of him and he was playing good until injury then Reggie came. Why he would't allow this kid to prove himself was a mystery.
I don't see the terrible QBs' you guys always seem to want to say Al got. All of these guys would be huge in this era because they won BEFORE they came to Oakland and NONE of them EVER had the talent Al gave them to win.
No NY this was a line going from '03 to '11. The Raiders should've been a SB contender most of those years. Yes NY they should've! If the Texans and Panthers could make the playoffs over those 9 years the Raiders should've been able to also.
In a PARITY league a team should have a better chance to win. Any given Sunday a Level playing field. Now just how does a team that IMO had a overload of talent over a 21 year period(2000-'12 yep, they still had some of Al's in '12 guys until Reggie cleaned house) n
Seeing Tebow take a mediocre Broncos team to the playoffs the year Al passed. The NFL couldnt've been more happy about it.
You don't know any fan who wanted the Raiders to move to L.V.? Well, that's good because the NFL, local media and media told the world what a horrible place the O.co was and how great it would be if the Raiders got a new stadium.
When fans questioned the actions of Reggie and, the move. Oh, they are conspiracy talkers, can't stand dealing with a real NFL man and still in love with Al's era.
Some fans don't get it they don't see how Reggie/ NFL just wants the Raiders to be a better franchise. They won't support us while we try to CHANGE this team into a better team; They won't get a scam and hype of terrible drafts, bad decisions, bad hires, political motivated moves against Al's employees, injury prone free agents. We won't get a mediocre defenses and special teams.
Wow! thanks a lot NFL! NY Raider!, you guys really don't study the past or present you just go with what the NFL/ media tells you or they put out hype that just makes it easier to not look into their actions- past and present!
Reggie was the guy to help with the football side of it(Raiders)?:
Really!?....He came with NO GM experience- he was a good scout! but as a GM turn this team into a contender by erasing it(IMO...it had the talent and staff to win now) was a little too much. true, he did say he couldn't fill Al's shoes but would try to do a good job.
FOA....Reggie wasn't allowed to do his best! The NFL got into the Raiders and basically started pushing the front office and became like advisers to the it.
Now, if like some fans believe, the NFL hated Al and the same with him. Nate! what do you think they might do if they got some say in the front office!?
Fans/ public know they were feuding this has been going on since the 90's to the '10's. Media/ fans know Al had a bad relationship with the NFL and was doing things(helping the players and the newest lawsuits) that upset the league/ owners.
Now Nate, you really think the NFL wasn't thinking 'pay back' when they got into the team? Raider Nate! Really!?
They couldn't do it so they put somebody in Raiders to do it. Reggie was allegedly promoted by ex-Raiders legends to be GM.
But he did things that made no sense! he got rid of young guys and some outstanding staff that could've helped the him.
why would an ex-Raider come in and act like an old enemy of Al? The league told him to make changes- it was about revenge and erasing Al's era. How do you explain why he/ new Raiders?:
1. fired ALL of Al's employees.
2. destroyed the culture.
3. turned the team into worst team in the NFL almsot by unit and staff.
4. bought salary down but didn't bring in many star players in free agency.
D. Allen, a system guy? maybe so, but the idea was to build a talented team and let the coaches run it. there should've been some kind of progress even if coach Allen wasn't used to the game plan.
I don't think Reggie had much say in the Raiders' rebuild he was the wrecking ball and that's what he did.
You claim D. Allen or Reggie did a good job(?) The whole point of making the Raiders' terrible was to get fans to support NFL helping rebuild them (tampering under the excuse they were trying to help change them into a better team). This is what Reggie's regime built :
secondary: from '03-'11 the Raiders had a top 10 unit they had pro bowlers some of the best CBs' in the NFL. after Reggie they were 1 of the worst for years.
QB: D. Carr- was a good QB and more, he had the attitude, loved the Raiders and wanted to retire here. But he's no. #2 best QB since '03. C. Palmer, was a pro-bowler and 1 of the best in the league when he was traded to Oakland. Reggie however, gets the win for drafting Carr.
O-line- If you go with hard work its' Reggie's. they spent money to make it 1 of the best('15-'18) then but the scheme was greedy- spend on the O-line not on star RB and maybe average-good RBs' and QB will put up big stats with O-line. It didn't quite work out but Reggie's regime built outstanding O-lines.
run game- Al had 1 of the best units in the NFL. not just DMAC- guys like L. Jordan, M. Bush, J. Fargas and T. Jones- Reggie got rid of all of them; but coach Allen asked Reggie to let Jones stay- he was moved to CB and became a pro bowl special team'er for the Texans and Bills. L. Murray was very good, J. Richard was o.k. but was a good ST player- these guys were good not outstanding like Al's guys.
D-line- Reggie's regime did a mediocre job w/ some outstanding players- they had talent but the unit(s) didn't dominate. Al had a top 5 DL for years during that slump.
special teams/ they had the best unit in the NFL both kickers were pro bowl level and both the D and return units were outstanding. Well, Reggie, felt it was too expensive, got rid of both kickers and all the unit players over a few years.
Anon, are we not supposed to hold the Raiders accountable because you think they were "overloaded with talent over a 21 year period?"
If I understand correctly, you bash "conspiracy talk", then subscribe to media conspiracies, NFL conspiracies and zombie fans who can't think for themselves to make your point that the Raiders were really better than they actually were (because they had some good players on their rosters).
It couldn't be the dysfunction the Raiders have been shrouded in for decades? The carousel of head coaches, the lack of organization hierarchy, the nepotism, the overhead projector firings, the JaMarcus Russell world-class draft bust, etc. The Raiders have insanely evaded parity thru their own stupidity, e.g., reaching for players well ahead of their projected draft level. That can hardly be argued. Let's not forget Al's untimely death and lack of succession plan, followed by Mark Davis confessing his limitations... which proved to be painfully true.
Like it or not, that's the Raiders history for a generation of new fans.
21 years? No, excuse me NY, I'm only talking about Al's last 9 years('03-'11) I see that as the real last era of the Raiders. Reggie and Gruden II's era's were the "new era" Raiders. They're not part of the 9 year slump.
It(new era) IS supposed to be a modern and upgraded version of the Raiders. It is about 11 years old('12-'22) it doesn't put speed, size and athleticism in its' system.
It's about managing salary cap, drafting high character, smart and tough guys that can be put in a system or/ and made key members of a football machine.
That's the new era Raiders I'm only talking about Al's era('03-'11).
No NY, I was acting as if I were media criticizing some fans, accusing them of conspiracy talk for questioning the actions of Reggie's regime.
* not better than what they were? They were OVERLOADED with unbelievable talent! they weren't some SB playing team that lost too many good players and slumped.
The 49ers had 1 losing season after their 1st SB then were elite for years. Some teams slump after the playoffs/ SB but not 9 years. A lot of teams might lose 1-2 years but come back because:
1. they have a good front office or/ and elite coaches.
2. they keep their younger talent and know how to make them good players.
3. they will spend on star free agents.
Now, since I know Al was that kind of GM I keep asking myself of almost ALL the teams how did this happen and you haven't said anything that really makes sense!
coaching Carosel? Maybe so but some of them showed they were good coaches like:
1. N. Turner- who kicked our asses for years with the Chargers.
2. Hue- who fans threw under the bus. Cleveland? he sure made our O move when he was here! Al made him HC to keep him as OC.
3. L. Kiffin- who is a HC, an outstanding OC in college and has all the talents to be an outstanding HC.
* Jamarcus? The Raiders were already losing before he was drafted.
Al fired coaches because they weren't winning. They keep losing he fires them! he doesn't keep them for years and suddenly fires them and has to rebuild.
Overhead projector? Kiffin talks about warning Al about Russell, Kiffin was called immature by others and he showed it. Kiffin was talented but came into a bad situation and bought some baggage.
dysfunction? NY, they've been dysfunctional for years! it NEVER bothered Al before! and there were teams far more dysfunctional than them. team's guys being arrested, walking off the field and other things no media ever said they couldn't win because of dysfunction.
NY, you'd have to be like a college team to screw up in PARITY, it was designed so mediocrity could win, maybe make the playoffs. Again, Al's teams were LOADED with talent. If they were a bad-mediocre team than WOULDN'T THEY HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO SUCCEED IN A PARITY LEAGUE?
Yea right NY! starting to mess with you a little isn't it? doesn't make sense!
When the Raiders were in their slump they had an insanely talented roster:
1. had 7 future HOFers on it(C-Wood, J. Rice, T. Brown, R. Woodson, R. Moss, R. Seymore, W. Sapp)
2. had the best special teams in the league.
3. some of the best units in the NFL(ST, secondary, run game, DL).
NY, please! overlapping? Just 2 of those guys on a team should help win in a PARITY league. With a guy like Al running it? NY, stop it! You can't possibly still believe that team('03-'11) lost on its' own!?
There's no way a team built like that
could lose for 9 years! And for a fan base waiting 10 years just to win a playoff game is a disgrace on the NFL for conning and lying to them and helping build a joke for fans to stress and argue over, while the NFL gets into Raiders and brings in staffs that the NFL/ media makes us excited about but they do ridiculous things that let us down.
IMO, "Overloaded with unbelievable talent" and "insanely talented roster" are gross exaggerations.
Putting that aside, the last nine years before MD were marred in dysfunction. The Raiders clearly broke parity by selecting JaMarcus Russell with their #1 pick and by making many other bad choices in the draft. JaMarcus Russell wasn't just another draft mistake. Russell was a generational mistake at QB1 that would plague the Raiders for years. Remember, Al drafted Russell with the #1 pick instead of Calvin Megatron! Johnson. Johnson represented the Raiders biggest chance for parity and Al blew it.
I don't understand your end game in this exercise. Living in the past is one thing, but clinging to a bad era of the Raiders history seems crazy. The last 9 nines of Al's teams were the height of dysfunction in the Raiders otherwise storied history, with the selection of Russell leading that charge.
Oh NY, NY, you are a Raiders fan and you are trying to be truthful the problem is you are defending a league that is corrupt and hypes outright
I just told you and SHOWED you that Al's teams had a lot of very good players!
Not only that but some were future pro bowlers! not a few pro bowlers and good players.
Do you know where some of the guys you put down on came from?
K. Collins played on SB teams and was good enough to get them to the SB. He had some good receiving units especially with NYG but he didn't have close to the receivers he had W/ Raiders.
A. Brooks- put up huge stats in New Orleans came to Oakland and had R. Moss, J. Porter giving him chance to take a team to the playoffs.
C. Palmer(?)/ a pro bowl QB gets with more talent than he's seen on a team- he had everything to make a SB run. Bengals had outstanding receivers but not like the Raiders' O had.
J. Campbell/ A young QB had problems in Washington Al thought he was a star. He gets to Oakland with a lot of talent to win with.
Now, NY, All of these guys(I don't know about Campbell) have 1 thing in common- they did outstanding with less talent. To come to a team with the rep of turning washed up/ injury prone/ older vet QBs' into stars(again?) along with giving them the talent to win.
Collins had S. Smith(Panthers), Burress, and Cruz? He comes to the Raiders and has Moss, Porter and other star receivers along with a ton of other talent w/ N. Turner coaching them. NY, Really!?
These guys not should've won but its' very hard to understand why they didn't.
Guys go to a team known to be obsessed with winning, with the talent at the positions they need and just loaded with talent on the team can't win but they won with less talent on other teams?
BTW...about Megatron, he was outstanding but we had R. Moss, J. Rice and T. Brown and still loss what makes you think he'd become a star in Oakland well, I mean help them win?- he was catching a good break not to come here.
If you didn't notice it seems no matter who Al bought in they just couldn't win. It's not only strange but there's no blogger , sports writers or experts that can make sense of it.
We're talking about a team with everything suddenly not winning not anymore not at all! but bringing in some of the league's best players ever.
Yea and now you have a fan base throwing its' greatest Raider under the bus on what the media claimed about him. Not only is it a little too easy to believe that a man obsessed with winning having had the league best talent('01-'02) not only can't have 1 winning season in 9 years? and don't question the league is a little too trusting in pro sport's/ media hype.
Sorry, friend, none of those players were as good as you think they were, especially, while playing for the Raiders.., and that wasn't the NFL's fault.
"Megaton was outstanding but we had Randy Moss?" Did you really type that?
When Moss was with the Raiders, his arms only reached up to his shoulders (protecting himself from injury while he waited for his next gig). He wanted to be with the Raiders about as much as Antonio Brown did. Look for yourself, Moss was better before and after the Raiders. With the Raiders he was so bad, they traded him to the Pats for a 4th round pick. In NE, Moss was again a star and went on to break NFL records.
That's the dysfunction that you are completely missing. The Raiders were a mess on and off the field.
Thanks to Hue Jackson, Carson Palmer cost the Raiders two high draft picks. Palmer was 4-5 in 2011 and 4-11 in 2012 as a starter for the Raiders. He went to AZ and posted 29-9 record as their starter in the next 3 seasons. See a pattern?
Lots of obstacles out there, but at the end the day, the Raiders have nobody to blame but themselves for decades of dysfunction and failure.
overstating or over hyping Al's last 9 years?: it was a SB team, it had a lot of pro bowl players, it had some good young players and it had 7 future HOFers!
Al made bad choices in the draft?:
Reggie drafted a guy who was injured and ill in the 1st round. he would've been there in the 2nd.
Gruden/ Mayock- reached for guys (pressured to) that weren't able to star in the NFL. Few of their 1st round picks are still with team.
Was Al that dysfunctional?:
Reggie made a statement about guys wanting to leave then those guys denied his claims.
Raiders finally go to the playoffs then fire the HC that helped lead them there.
The NFL went after/ attacked the Raiders and many old execs and Gruden II resigned.
Jamarcus may've been a bust but he sure wasn't alone:
M. Flynn- traded from Seattle and had injury. He had to deal with mediocre talent and didn't stay long.
M. Schuab- was a top NFL QB in Houston but not as good. Came to Raiders in their rebuild.
M. McGloin- UDFA was a fan favorite but was made starter to keep TP2 on the bench. Had a good-big attitude but Wasn't ready to start.
C. Cook- good QB, big college career but wasn't ready to start. when Carr got injured had to start in playoff game.
M. Leinart- heisman trophy winner and ex-#1 pick.
E.J. Manuel
C. Frye
last 9 years of Al's regime? bad decisions?:
The past 10 years the 3 regimes haven't done much better in fact have found ways to upset Raidernation and keep us losing.
Al brought in outstanding players and lost, this team brings in average-very good and loses.
You manage to get 5 1st round picks and ruin almost all of them?
you move from a large market to a smaller 1 for a new stadium but get NFL investigations, employees leaving and firings and
end game?:
Al had a roster of stars and good-very good draft picks. He also had 7 future HOFers on SOME of those teams. No team would've cleaned house of those guys. Al was trying to win in his last 9 years and was rushing to do it and he sure found the talent to do it.
Its' 1 thing for an above average/ well coached team to upset elite teams and go to the playoffs. But when mediocrity is winning/ dominating something is wrong. I've never heard of a super bowl team with 7 future HOFers and the GM, a genius- can't even win 1 division title for 9 years? Its' another for a team that was already very good and then loaded up on talent to keep losing that long!
You seem to be trying to fair minded and maybe defending the cleanness of the NFL I'm saying there is something terribly shady and wrong with the NFL. You can make sense of WHY the Raiders lost for 9 years I can find some of your points in the slump but most doesn't make any sense.
I think fans should know Al was having health issues but IMO it didn't affect his management and he make mistakes and maybe the team could've had a losing streak but those teams were loaded with talent and few teams that talented lose like that.
I think the NFL and(some) these billionaires have turned the NFL into a machine with power that pushes/ pressures its' members and can cause them problems if they get out of line.
If Al did cause the slump he sure made it hard to see because he made them look good maybe just on paper- but good rosters are supposed win and especially with all the talent he bought in that last decade.
You're making my case. I never said the dysfunction stopped after Al. The Raiders made their own bed, with and without Al.
How many times in Raiders' history have they had the #1 pick in a draft?
Once!
And against his HC's wishes, Al bet everything on JaMarcus Russell.
That's no small thing and in no way should be compared to Connor Cook, Matt McGloin, Matt Flynn or anyone else.
The Raiders never even met with Russell before they drafted him, though it was their right to vet all their top candidates as the #1 pick. Is that laziness? Arrogance? Stupidity? ... Dysfunction?! What team is that dumb?
Dysfunction during Al's final years was only hard to see for those who weren't looking.
Did you forget the infamous "Al Please Hire a GM" billboard?
I think you see what you want to see. If you're looking at player stats and trading bubble gum cards, then you're in good shape. Raiders have had plenty of good players in their history.
There's a chance, slim as it might be, that Rich Bisaccia becomes the next HC of the Colts and Derek Carr becomes his QB. Colts are in a second interview process with top HC candidates and Bisaccia is in that mix.
In nine seasons, only Bill Musgrave and Rich Bisaccia have been able to really get the most out of Derek Carr. What these guys have in common is not so much their offense football acumen, it's their willingness to accommodate Carr and adjust the offense to his strengths. Apparently, Josh McDaniels offered the exact opposite of that approach.
If and when (probably more a question of when) Derek Carr excels with another team, it will further demonstrate the Raiders' dysfunction... a long trend which all evidence suggests cannot be broken.
You can bet Carr is chomping at the bit to do exactly that. When he does, he will join a long list of players whose play was better while outside of the Raiders organization.
Long list of players? sense when?:
M. Allen?: he wasn't better he was almost as good as he was. Al mistreated him and he signed with K.C. and kicked our asses for it.
After Allen, hardly anybody- then from '03-'11:
R. Coleman/ claimed something was wrong with team after '03 season went to Falcons was a pro bowler but 1st was a pro bowl level player with Raiders.
R. Moss/ quitting on Al and NFL tampering got him to NE. how was it Al's fault if he quit on them? you attacking the wrong guy, its' Moss that should be criticized. was a pro bowler and future HOFer with Patriots.
D. Hall/ for some reason did a lot like Moss. pro bowl level CB w/ Falcons. his claims didn't hold up to me. like Moss just quit on plays then talks about Raiders after he leaves. I think he went back to the Falcons.
* how about players who should've or wanted to stay with Al?:
DMAC/ talented RB told Reggie he'd stay with Raiders like Carr to help them win- No way! J. Richard, M. Goodsen and L. Murray were good enough for us and you supported that! was a pro bowler with Dallas.
J. Veldheer/ he took the Cardinals' offer but was still talking to Raiders- but no! we gonna find a pro bowl LT later. Reggie said he "didn't want to be a Raider anymore" but Veldheer denied that. was a pro bowler with Cardinals
S. Routt/ made some comments after signing with K.C. the new Raiders tried to go after him in media and on field. in a game on Oakland 1st play they threw a deep pass on his side and he picked it off.
TP2 a team without exciting players traded Pryor. he has a 92 yard TD run and helps win a game and staff publicly criticizes him and after an injury benches him for a rookie QB?
* lets break this down:
why would NE want a guy who quits on teams? Why didn't they trade for these guys instead of waiting for Oakland to make bad trades? NFL tampering?- They made sure no team would make an offer for Moss other than NE's.
If guys were paid well and had a chance to play for a guy who stood up for them- you're telling me that's not good enough reason to play for him?!
Allen was badly mistreated, Coleman was already pro bowl level before leaving, D. Hall quit on plays, then he makes comments after being released. Moss got paid, goes to the #1 team for his skills and he quits on them. Al did NOTHING to make him a bad player for 1 year! you can't find ANYTHING to prove that!
The NFL was behind Moss trade! even with a drop off he was still a pro bowler and I think had good stats for us! I think the NFL told 30 other teams not to try to trade for him. It may sound ridiculous but the NFL is powerful, they have done things to us and others before to pressure people to cooperate.
lets break down the players who wanted to stay:
you attack a CBs' play and when he leaves and makes comments about the new regime. you throw a deep pass at him and he picks it off? Wow! he wasn't elite but he was good. Routt would be a starter for the new regime if he were here.
TP2/ why not let him play backup/wild cat QB? he could've helped move O's, he did have success as a WR. but was it he just wasn't good enough or something to do with Al?
Fans were excited about Reggie and the chance he might rebuild team. So they weren't 2 upset over his moves. but there was a young OT who was ready to leave. instead of offering a good contract Reggie lets him walk. Reggie said he left because he "didn't want to be a Raider". J. Veldheer denied the claims. he was a pro bowler with the Cardinals.
Oh what a bust DMAC was but he had enough respect for Al and MD to offer to stay, he showed class. No! get rid of him! he goes to Dallas and puts up good stats. Oh, it was Dallas' O-line! or was it because he got with a good team?
* Wow NY! even in a slump guys wanted to play for Al. I don't think he made guys so bad they played/ were really better with other teams. Some guys quit and shamed themselves and Raiders aren't to blame because they quit on them.
The Bengals got screwed as if they were the Raiders yesterday. Burrow called for intentional grounding, and the next drive Mahomes does the same play and no call. Chiefs o-line getting away with blatant holds, and let's not forget the do-over third down where the refs said the sideline judge was running in blowing his whistle to stop the play, but there is no video evidence of it. Albert Breer tweeting this morning that the Chiefs deserved to win that game is just as atrocious. Bengals equally deserved to win that game as they fought to come back and tie it at 20.
I think the NFL is rigged, and they are not even concerned about hiding that fact. If they are not rigged, then they need to investigate the refs betting on games because that was the most absurd officiating since the Tuck Rule. Horrible.
There's my football take for today.
But, someone said it's not possible to rig games, that someone would speak out. The naive sure are getting lessons in spades these days. But, most of them still can't see. It's part of all their contracts, they cannot speak out.
Anon, "a slump?" Lol. You keep regurgitating the same players names as if the results will change and somehow the Raiders will log an historic super bowl while you type.
Here you go. Cut and paste this into your browser. Maybe it will jog your memory.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oakland-raiders-billboard_n_378185
Al Davis had his day, but it wasn't during the era you think.
Raiders have been very close to the vest about Derek Carr. Media report Carr's agent has not been given permission to seek a trade, nor has anything been leaked regarding the Raiders speaking with anybody.
Raiders have very little negotiating power unless they allow Carr's guarantee deadline to lapse, in which case they would have to be prepared to keep Carr if a trade couldn't be agreed to by all parties.
Meanwhile, Aaron Rogers rumors are heating up. The problem with Rogers is his inflated salary which would leave the Raiders very little, if any, room to sign a new defense... and he's also likely to cost the Raiders a coveted #7 pick.
I much prefer the Raiders get a serviceable game manager QB and focus on defense.
I'm also concerned that college QBs like Levis and Richardson are just flash and may never be solid NFL starters. From what I gather, neither of these guys were all that impressive in college. They are both being touted with high ceilings in thin QB field.
We need another Brock Purdy!
No team had a worse record since '03?:
They were defending AFC West Champions in '03.
No team ever recorded a worse record?: no team ever had a HC call them the "Dumbest team in America"! when they were the defending AFC Champions.
No sports broadcaster EVER said in public that an NFL team had "No talent" and had "virtually no chance of winning"! when they were defending AFC Champions.
* Did Al tell coach Cable to attack that assistant?
MessagetoRaidernation.com:
the most powerful, loyal fan base is supporting the same league that hated Al.
fans want to move on from Al yet continue to expect changes if they get people he drafted/ signed or hired!:
D. Shaw was an intern during that slump.
J. Harbaugh/ was an assistant with Raiders.
Gruden/ 1 of Al's HCs' traded to Bucs.
You shouted for these guys to coach us! well, who hired them 1st? Al did and if he had the sense to hire them shouldn't that make you question the media's claims about his mental and management skills?
you then get scammed out of everything that made NFL fans respect you. What a rat trap the O.co was! a stadium that was ugly and old but had:
1. some of the best weather and public transportation in the NFL.
2. tailgating
3. the 'black hole'
4. some of the best NFL sportscasters ever- G. Papa now works for the 49ers.
5. a place(O.co) were some of the biggest games in 3 different sports have happened.
* you got a GM- 2 of them since Al passed and what happened!?:
1. they made the team worse
2. they reached for 1st round picks.
3. did nothing to bring in star free agents.
Who was he going to replace himself with until he found a GM? he allegedly left Hue in charge but you wanted an outsider to come and turn the mess around?
you had a Super Bowl-Caliber HC- Gruden II who Al hired!
Reggie and Mayock made decisions/ they both reached for 1st round picks.
Well, Al had B. Allen as an assistant GM but traded him along with Gruden to TB('02).
Understand, when Al passed, NFL came in and made changes. but to change Raiders' ideas- no more lawsuits, working with union, voting against them or standing up for players.
A loyal fan base is frustrated by 9 years of losing decided its' the GM's fault and asks for changes. They start attacking the GM and his employees in blogs and web sites. When he passes, the fact the team traded for a QB despite him being an elite 1 that really upsets them. They support bringing in outsiders.
Finally, the Raiders will get fixed what they got was 1 of the biggest lies and cons jobs in pro sports.
Fans gave the NFL its' loyalty and they laughed because we didn't have an icon, legend GM anymore and they were very happy about it.
The AFC West laughed at us- they knew this none sense about Al was silly.
They/ we thought Al-Raiders were a joke, irrelevant, funny? Well, I think they saw us as a joke and funny.
fans, supporting the NFL' and the terrible regimes that have embarrassed us and expecting the league to help us find a winning GM. Funny NY? Really!?
They knew they(NFL) could con us with hype. They brought in ex-Raiders as the face of their con job knowing we would buy it.
you don't think they laughed at us keep supporting a system that:
hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years.
got rid of some of the best players in the NFL because it hated the deceased owner.
moved to a new city and made a deal not giving the Raiders a stake in the stadium?
* keep claiming new regimes should be winning because of their TALENT. When I say the same about Al and seem to have more evidence I get this 'Al caused this'- 'Raiders(regimes) just have the same problems' thing from 4 different regimes?
NY, really? Man, you don't think the NFL and these corporations didn't put a little pressure or tampers a little with the Raiders the past 22 years?
.
You have a selective memory.
In 2003 the Raiders record was 4-12. Apparently, you forgot about the billboard but maybe you remember, "Dumbest team in America."
Fact: No team has more losing seasons since 2002 than the Raiders. Look it up.
You continue to prop up the organization (to the point of gaslighting) despite epic failure which you point blame everywhere except where it belongs.
It's much simpler than you make it. The Raiders goal is to be better than the 31 other teams in the league. In that, they have failed historically. The Raiders have not won a playoff game since 2002.
It's a team sport, so having "super bowl caliber" coaches and players means very little. Raiders fielded some of the best players in the league this year and won only 6 games. Obviously, it takes more than good players or good coaches to field a good team.
Brock Purdy is out at least 6 months. The 49ers will be looking for a QB, and rumors are they will be interested in Tom Brady. The Niners were SB contenders until Purdy got injured and, unlike the Raiders, they actually have a defense.
Rogers is too expensive for LV, and Brady will not likely want to join a team which has no defense.
Bottom line: Raiders options are thin, at best. It's incredibly disappointing that McDaniels could not work with Derek Carr. But this is where we're at.
NY "I much prefer the Raiders get a serviceable game manager QB and focus on defense."
I thought they had a great one with Derek Carr, except he didn't have the luxury of managing a game due to a lack of defense.
The reason they didn't give permission to seek a trade is because they could not do so until after the conference championship, which was this past weekend, according to league rules. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens soon. With that said, several things will have to take place. 1) Carr will have to negotiate to move his deadline back a month from receiving guaranteed monies; which he and his agent have already said they are unwilling to do. 2) Carr wouldn't be traded until March 15th, and a team will have to be willing to take on his guaranteed salary, which most teams do not want to do. These two factors alone indicate the Raiders will cut him in 15 days (today is Jan 31st).
McDaniels threw Carr under the bus to save his face and to hide the fact he cannot coach. Again, what I took away from Hondo's article is that Josh is good at tearing plays down and giving harsh criticism when needed; but he still does not get the relationship factor in coaching. You have to build up as much as you tear down. Again, Josh and Derek respect each other, but that does not translate to relationship. You could tell throughout the season that Josh did not trust Derek in managing the game and play situations. He micro-managed; and that is saying a lot since Derek and Gruden got a long so well. And you know Gruden criticized DC, and was all over him. Hondo made it seem like Derek did not have thick skin, I don't buy it because Gruden was his coach for 3+ years. McDaniels is the new Norv Turner, great coordinator, but can't translate that to being a Head Coach. Why? McDaniels is a systems guy, and cannot build a game plan to the strengths of a team. McDaniels, not Carr, is the problem. I was hoping to be wrong because he said all of the right things in his press conference about the things he learned, and one of them being relatable to the players and building on their strengths. He did the complete opposite his first year with the Raiders, just like he did with Dunver.
With all that said, if McDaniels does not work out as coach, I don't think he gets another shot in the NFL. I do think he'd be a terrific NCAA Coach. I do see good qualities in him, but his qualities do not translate in the NFL without the right guidance from a good HC like Belichick. To be honest, I think Lane Kiffin and Josh McDaniels are the similar people. Just my opinion.
NY Raider Part I
selective memory?: I remember the billboard- what I don't understand is that 4-12 team was loaded with the some of the NFL's best young players and then they had future HOFers- J. Rice, T. Brown, C-Wood and R. Woodson. NY! man really!? 4-12!? HA, dude! with Al running that team!? they were DEFENDING AFC Champions!!
A mediocre team with 2 of these guyswould be better. Then a team loaded with young talent and future HOFers should win right?
So you really believe that kind of team could go 4-12? It would have a very had time having a losing season at all!
I don't because it doesn't make sense at all unless-
serious injuries
some kind of dysfunction and bickering that's never been seen before.
the worst coaching ever
PARITY worked so well the Raiders were surprised by other teams fir 9 years.
guys gave up on a guy who paid them well.
the refs went wild during that 9 year slump. the bias in scheduling was happening but that kind of team could win anywhere.
this team could have a losing season but it would be very hard not to win at least 8 games with that roster. teams like that can't lose a lot. It was way too talented and well managed to really have more than a few losing seasons.
but there are some very strange and shady things that make me wonder if it wasn't outsiders working from the inside to ruin this team?:
Who was the coach? B. Callighan what did he call the team?- the "Dumbest team in America"! they were AFC Champions and you're coaching them!
What was going on that players wanted to leave? Al? tell me, what was he telling these guys? When did guys stop wanting to play for him?
You don't think a powerful corrupt corporation like the NFL didn't tamper with 1 of its' members the 1 they hate the most do you? No, it was great bad decisions and losing with a team loaded with talent and 7 future HOFers because the HOF GM was dysfunctional and traded its' HC!
Dude...Really!?
Anon, you're stuck in neutral. You need a Delorian to get back to the future!
I can explain 100 different ways why the Raiders continued to lose over the past 20 years, but none of it will make sense to you because you measure the team by its individual parts.
Meanwhile, this is easily the most intense off-season the Raiders will have in memory. You might miss it if you stay wrapped up with your fixation on former players stats.
Here's burning irony that smacks right in the Raiders face.
1 - Derek Carr was just named an alternate at the Pro Bowl.
2 - Sean Payton just become head coach of the Denver Broncos.
Let those two things sink in for a minute.
I understand the intrigue of potentially finding a new QB. But I'm worried that we end up with another QB like the list of QBs Anon keeps posting as "super bowl caliber."
So, I wonder, is there a valid reason why Josh McDaniels doesn't call Derek Carr, apologize for how the end of the season was handled and agree to work with the QB to be the best he can be? Because Carr is about to school the Raiders on another team. Does anyone truly doubt that?
If I'm GM for a day, I'd:
Keep Carr
Re-sign Jacobs (or tag him)
Re-sign Perryman
Spend salary cap resources on defense and O-line (starters and depth)
Draft defense heavy!
I'm really concerned that the Raiders cannot do better than that.
NY Raider Part II
NY!! Rice, C-Wood, Woodson, T. Brown, Gannon aren't team players!? dude, stop it please! No NY, that's complete none sense and you know it!
It's very hard to see that team(above) losing over 5 games in a season. A college SR. QB could win with this team. 49ers' Purdy would be playing in the SB with this team.
team sport!?: then those guys(Al's) made it seem the Raiders were playing with 16 guys on offense instead of 11. That's how talented they were.
You want to insult your own intelligence go ahead but don't put that unit in the same group as the new regimes. they(Al's) were expected, almost a sure bet to win.
The Raiders' goal is to win?: the NFL's goal for them, is to make money off the 'Brand' and Las Vegas(SB, NFL entertainment, merchandise). All the fun NFL fans would have there- the celebrities, t.v. ratings and even news of the events would bring more people to sports bars, their living rooms and L.V.
the Raiders haven't won a playoff game since '02: Al's Raiders hadn't won a playoff game in 9 years and the new regimes haven't won a playoff game yet.
Well Well Well NY!,
S. Peyton who was a Raider is now a Bronco! Wow! Raidernation: Al please resign- get a GM who knows what he's doing a SB caliber HC.
Wow! Al hired this guy 10-11 years ago!
bad decisions, bad management, senile, dysfunctional, bad draft picks, bad HIRES!
NY Raider wow! what do you think the Broncos said to him to sign him?! Elway, Lynch those guys- if they've copied 1 NFL person its' Al!
nice post about coach Peyton though, it seems the fans just don't understand that Al was still 1 of the best GMs' when he passed.
here's another ex-Raiders' HC DNW(=didn't work for team) another team hires and fans don't quite understand that the senile old man was way ahead of these teams and they're just catching up to him.
I can explain why they lost a lot 2!
mainly tampering
the refs
intimidation by a corrupt league
unfair scheduling
players who quit on team knowing they'd get paid anyway
terrible game plans that really didn't make any sense
lack of refs calls against other teams
the only thing on Al was maybe firing his HC's too fast
* The Broncos will roll with Wilson for now! its' the contract, if they really wanted to kick ass they'd get M. Mariota or Matty Ice!
Wow! you sure can put down on Al's era but you can't seem to explain why his moves keep looking good years after his era.
BTW NY.....Any 1 of those QB's SHOULD'VE been enough to make the playoffs with the talent Al had around them. You want a new era to prove they can succeed past Al and so far you haven't you also want to prove 31 other teams are better front offices than Al's which is very silly.
You also want to prove this years Raiders had the talent to win which is the same thing I said about Al's last teams.
I can explain why they didn't win- not really making changes to mediocre units, like issues they had with personnel and bad moves w/ trades and in the draft that made some area's mediocre and things they did to caused them to lose. And the NFL may've pressured front office not to spend too much or copy Al's love of speed and size.
NY, you make good points and really might be trying to be fair minded or think you're being honest about the last 22 years. We argue about this team both of us may have our point we both like/ love the Raiders.
I think the NFL is working with Raiders and the focus in on making money, they've pressured the team to do things to build for later, they do want success, just not now and we just don't see it. I think they need to gel, get a learn more and find more talent and maybe they might really get better.
I just got to say the fans are loyal and the NFL has us expecting big things fans need to be suspicious but maybe the league really wants to help. we both have said both silly and good points. you feel its' Raiders future and can't see why I look at the past but we hope fans get a team working hard without NFL focusing on he super bowl and tampering and we get a team with talent and a front office trying to do it themselves and prove to be the team of the future or a team using some ideas from a once great past.
Sean Payton was NEVER a Raider.
Also, 10-11 years ago would have been right after Payton won the SB with the saints, so that would not have made Al Davis a visionary, if it were true... but it's not.
Tom Brady officially retired, again. This time it's likely to stick.
Raiders are running out of options!!!
Oh sorry NY I confused the '12 season with '03.
Yes NY, Al hired S. Peyton before the '03 season.
Sean talked with Al, 1st talk may've been over the phone we don't know, but he did later come to Oakland(Alameda) and was interviewed by Al. Later, he was hired by Al.
For some very straaaaaaaange reason he QUIT, not he didn't turn it down! he QUIT, he was a Raider.
Al was a legend top 2 best NFL exec ever! just lost a SB to his own ex-HC!
Now NY! you say I'm stuck in the past, that Al caused Raiders' issues, that its' on the Raiders' regimes? NY NY. Dude...you won't even look and see NFL corruption
Your points might have some facts behind them but not a lot and the fact that there's evidence against the league don't help your case much.
1. rumors are that somebody(s) TOLD S. Peyton not to accept the job then to QUIT when he did accept the job.
2. Peyton left Alameda(Oakland) and either was hired over the phone or at Raiders' HQ.
3. Peyton didn't have ANY issues with Al's way of doing things and never commented on any problems with team after the SB.
Your case looks weak and the fact that he was hired makes it look even more
What S. Peyton saw and could've had with Raiders.
1. a team ready to go to the playoffs.
2. HOF receivers for his offense.
3. an outstanding D
4. a legendary, iconic GM to learn from
5. a team with a history of winning and turning guys into HOFers.
And your point is Al's dysfunction probably made him take the Saints' job- O.K. NY, so he decided he'd turn down a legend that happens but your point ain't mak'in it in fact since he had 2 choices learn from a legend lead a playoff team or lead the Saints a team that:
had won no super bowl
that wasn't SB contender
that has good but not legendary owners
When I bring up the rumor it looks like it should be looked at when your point attacks this 1 you it can only ask for the evidence but other than that its' hard to believe a guy would turn the '03 Raiders down for the Saints, I did hear he was hired not offered a job. Then there's the strange reason for QUITTING the Raiders maybe it's rumor but it has weight because I think a lot of young guys would love to learn from him.
Bill Parcells told Peyton to stay away from the Raiders, Al couldn't hire quality coaching because the Raiders were a madhouse. Everyone was told to stay away from the Raiders, they are still being told to stay away from the Raiders. Talk about rewriting history, sheesh.
So does 20 years of Raiders failures all boil down to a brief interlude with Sean Payton, who never coached for the Raiders? Come on, man, you're better than that.
As I said before, Al had his day, it just wasn't when you think. Al had an up-and-coming young HC. Jon Gruden was actually bringing the Raiders back to prominence. But Davis couldn't stand Gruden getting that recognition, so he traded him to the Bucs. That was truly the end of the Raiders as we all once loved them, after which Al's legacy was mired by his decline. It's not really a matter of debate. We can rehash it if you like.
You spend so much energy on the past, plz tell me what you think the Raiders should do right now.
NY he didn't coach the Raiders he was hired, then Quit the job. other Anon, just told you about what may've happened with S. Peyton.
You love to pretend that Al was a top GM once but irrelevant since the 90s'. That's ridiculous but it seems that by pretending his best days were gone by the 90s' it makes a mediocre/ corrupt NFL and Raiders' regimes more acceptable- and the NFL right,
that there are steps to getting better and you just change your program and do the basics you'll can start all over. oh it wasn't the NFL, corporations with billionaires and Al's enemies it was just and old man that needed to let NFL people bring new ideas or go and let them rebuild your team into new company.
there's no standards to keep or ideas to use from the past, no loyalty. you just do the basics(front office) and you can be a model franchise! Who needs advise, or ideas from old winning teams and legends or sports media, retired execs who remember guys like Al, Walsh, Noll and others?
just to show you how terrible Al's era was in '03-'11 I just wanted you to see his front office hires:
S. Peyton/ hired in '03 then suddenly Quit the job.
J. Fox/ assistant on defense coached the Broncos and Panthers.
J. Harbaugh/ assistant was on offense, coached the 49ers and now is with Michigan U.
D. Shaw/ intern with Raiders, coached at Stanford U.
Hue/ top OC-good HC with Raiders; some fans felt he wasn't a good HC or that he threw team under the bus. was an assistant with Cin., HC with Browns and now Grambling St.
N. Turner/ a top OC was a good coach but was fired by Al. he kicked our asses with the SD Chargers for years.
What should the Raiders do right now!? You're finally asking me a question NY!:
FOA- they should look for size, athleticism and speed! K.C. and Denver runs over them with size and speed.
1. Let J. Jacobs walk, he's like a poor man's Emmitt Smith- mainly because he plays while injured. A faster RB with a few of those tough physical RBs' would take a ton of pressure of the O-line.
2. stick with a 4-3 D, the Patriots use a 3-4 but that will cost more so they need to add more talent to their defense.
3. sign a vet QB like Mariota, 'Matty Ice' or
4. hire assistants look for DL and DB experts.
5. scout the HBCU and heavily this year we might find some of those stars.
6. look into adding to your conditioning programs. Al had outstanding conditioning programs.
7. get that O-line built before next year, sign a free agent OG and let the RT come in the draft.
8. spend more on star free agents.
9. bring in a veteran coach to work with McDaniels.
Other Anon! the Raiders were a madhouse?: The Raiders were AFC Champions, the '03 season hadn't even started yet. But now we see there was more to it than Al messing up. They/ those people told coach Peyton not to work for the Raiders?
If Al/ Raiders were so bad or a toxic work place why did anybody have to TELL a person(s) not to work there? couldn't they see that for themselves?
So, guys wanted Al to support them in strikes and voting down the CBA, the NFLPA(union) let him work with them against the owners, he just came off a SB loss, he is called 1 of the greatest GMs' in sports history but nobody wanted to work for him?
both you and other Anon are silly?!
Amazing that you can say Al hired Sean Payton but Payton mysteriously quit before his job started... and that doesn't smack of dysfunction to you. Al also tried to hire Steve Sarkisian and ended up with Lane Kiffin. We all know how that went. There's so much more nonsense between '03 and '11 that smacks of craziness, i.e., a couple steps beyond dysfunction. We can review that more if you like.
Also, none of the names on your latest list of who's who were "front office" hires. Al was the front office. "Assistant coaches" is a pretty loose definition of "front office."
Finally, I find it interesting that you have conveniently avoided discussing the Jon Gruden trade to Tampa, though that was the exact era you refer to. Gruden was clearly on path to a super bowl and Al sabotaged that effort in a bizarre HC trade which yielded only wasted draft capital and some pocket change for the big guy. Gruden went on to get his revenge as HC of the Bucs and Al forever resented him for it. Just like he chased Marcus Allen out of town and resented him for daring to be the face of the franchise, even for a moment in time.
You keep defending what can't be defended. Your biggest flaw: facts!
Davante Adams posted an Instagram pic of he and Aaron Rodgers in Vegas (for the Pro Bowl, fwiw)! He is acting like he is recruiting Rodgers to come play for Vegas. Meanwhile, Derek Carr was warming up yesterday for today's target passing contest. Without warming up, took off his Pro Bowl jacket (did not wear Raiders' gear), and knocked all the targets down. Kyle Brandt said this morning on GMFB that Carr was focused, looked pissed off, and is looking to stick it to the Raiders for their decision.
Everyone thinks this will elevate his trade value; but in reality, he will be cut in 13 days. Now that Brady has retired for good, and inked a deal on Fox; the Raiders have no back up plan at QB unless they trade capital for Rodgers. Stidham, Jimmy G, and Mac Jones are not the answers to replace Carr.
The other option is they keep Carr, and ask him to restructure his deal. Is Mark Davis and Josh McDaniel man enough to swallow their pride? Probably not. Even if they did, does Derek Carr accept? Probably not. "My momma always said, 'Stupid is as stupid does.'" - Forrest Gump.
Nate, I believe Mark Davis is the one taking issue with Carr. Sure McDaniels was a little too hands on, but Carr has always adjusted to his coaches.
The Raiders have no other clear path. IMO, Carr is still under contract and the Raiders should bring him back next year, after which they will have very little cap consequence to wipe the slate clean. Carr deserves one more year with a better defense.
To be sure, Derek Carr was not the reason the Raiders ended 6-11. Their defense blew 5-6 double-digit leads and, overall, coaching was substandard.
These idiots need to look in the mirror!
Carr gives the Raiders their best chance at a one-year turnaround. They can still draft his replacement... and if they get CJ Stroud, for example, he and Carr should compete to see who starts. That's how Carr got to be QB1.
This thing ain't over! Time for the Raiders to smarten up!
Rodgers salary is off the charts and would cripple the Raiders ability to rework the defense and add depth to the O-line. Also, the Packers will want too much draft capital for him.
The Raiders have Carr, 11 draft picks (mostly high-seeded picks!) and lots a cap space. Carr knows what's at stake and would come back more focused than ever.
Give me a break! This should be a slam dunk!
As if there was any doubt, Carr's interview at the PB (below) demonstrates his incredible integrity and work ethic.
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/derek_carr_reveals_hes_had_discussions_with_raiders_gm_about_future/s1_13132_38425292
I continue to believe that the Raiders do not have a better option at QB. I might have half believed when Brady was potentially available. Rodgers would cripple the teams finances, and no other FA is better than Carr.
As I've said before, it's only a problem if you have a solution. If the Raiders let Carr go, they better have a friggin' solution. Developing a rookie is not a solution for 2023, while Carr is still under contract.
https://twitter.com/derekcarrqb/status/1613560895011184641?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1613560895011184641%7Ctwgr%5E2167e1bdd35f96ca37979101d09ea408ef72a739%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F10063997-raiders-derek-carr-reportedly-wont-extend-40m-contract-trigger-date
he isn't coming back, are you having a hard time letting go? The bridge has been burnt and it's for the whole world to see, why can't you see it?
Does it bother you that I prefer not to speak in absolutes until it's, well, absolute?
If you listened to the interview with Carr that I posted above, Carr uses the words, and I paraphrase, "this 'might' be my last game as a Raider."
So, if Derek Carr isn't able to put his departure in absolute terms, then neither am I.
You shouldn't let it bother you.
And what "bridge has been burnt?" Because Carr was benched after the worst game of his career when the Raiders were out of the playoffs and they wanted to get a look at Stidham?
Is your bridge somebody getting their feelings hurt?
Carr is under contract with the Raiders until he's not. I have no illusion that he'll remain, but, again, nothing has been decided.
Optics is a very important thing in any kind of business. Imagine the optics of the Raiders asking Carr to come back, imagine the optics if Carr came back and the riff between HC and QB would be very detrimental to the team. I think it's obvious by now, for most people, to see that their relationship is over.
Bringing Carr back would be a disaster on many fronts, it's hilarious to even suggest it. First off, I do not believe Carr would eat his words and come back. 2nd, if the Raiders did bring him back, you think the Raiders are seen as a joke now? Imagine the ridicule the team would receive if that was the scenario. It's very odd that you would even suggest it, let alone condone it.
I appreciate what you're saying but the optics we see come from media which job it is to sensationalize. Hell, media tell us that Gruden was much harder on Carr than McDaniels.
I've heard Carr speak and I've watched and read quotes from Zeigler and McDaniels and there's been nothing but cordial statements made.
Raiders are running a $5B franchise and McDaniels is fighting for his professional life. Neither the team nor McDaniels can afford to make decisions on emotion nor optics. Carr is under contract. He is an extremely high-character individual, so the chance of him not fulfilling his contract, should the Raiders bring him back, is zero.
This is merely my opinion, and it keeps me from saying it's a done deal.
Optics can change like the wind. We'll see. Sure, Carr has one foot out the door but the Raiders seem hesitant to shove him the rest of the way... as they should be.
In terms of money, Mark Davis is flush and can afford to play this out and get trade value for Carr. He brought an NFL franchise that was in the toilet to Vegas and it tripled in value. Then he bought a WNBA team and it won a championship. He can afford to guarantee a fair salary to Derek Carr, then decide if a trade is in their best interest.
IMO, cutting Carr by the Feb-15 guarantees vesting date is, by definition, failure by the Raiders. I'm hoping Zeigler is smarter than that and Davis will back him up.
This whole thing seems really stupid to me.
One thing we can say about this offseason, never a dull moment.
Raiders rarely disappoint during the offseason. It's when the games start that they usually faceplant.
Carr has both feet out the door and the only reason why he hasn't been cut yet, is because they want to try and trade him before Feb 15th. But of course, Carr has a no trade in the contract so a trade will be almost impossible. Carr says he will not extend the deadline of Feb 15th. Carr has said he wants to make a new deal with a new team. They made a bad signing, a bad contract with Derek. They must of felt Carr was the guy when they signed him and then something went sour and now it's over. You can keep hoping, but facts say otherwise.
McDaniels is fighting for his career as a HC and that is why Carr won't be back. Imagine what McDaniels would do to his rep if he got on his knees and grovelled to Carr to come back? It won't happen and your scenario is a laugher, give it up. Carr is gone, deal with it. There are other options and McDaniels wants to go that route, Carr isn't the only solution.
And, if you think Mark is just going to throw 40 mill at Carr because he can, nope. Mark obviously doesn't want to invest that money into Carr and if they wanted Carr to stay, they could have tried to restructure with Carr, but they didn't, so Carr took his Bible and went home. Carr is gone, get over it.
You have your opinions and I respect that but, again, I'm not as certain of anything as you are. I prefer to wait and let it play out.
It goes without saying, the contract given to Carr last year was a mistake. At that time, everyone signing it apparently thought Derek Carr was the guy, and Carr thought he was a Raider for life. Much to their surprise, McDaniels is not good enough to get the most out of Carr. Which has me very concerned that there are other good QBs out there that McDaniels also can't work with. Even if the Raiders sign Aaron Rodgers, there will be that concern.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/02/04/raiders-derek-carr-contract-trade
NY Raider and other Anon!, Just 1 thing would beat your points:
SOMEBODY! nobody- goes to person and tells him not to work for somebody unless that person's work place is bad nobody goes and tries to keep somebody from reaching the highest heights if its' a good place to learn. Even if Parcells and others felt coach Peyton could suffer and be abused by Al Peyton could've stayed and the got out of the contract learning from 1 if not the best ever GM.
You see SOMEBODY had to tell a guy something he couldn't see 4 himself! Somebody had to tell players to not work for a guy but 31 other jobs would be fine.
Ummmmm.....dudes the things coach Peyton could've learned in 2-3 years from Al would've been huge for him.
The very fact that you would embarrass yourselves with flat out silliness knowing the difference between the Raiders and Saints in '03 off season shows you just want to believe that there's some great regime or game plan that's gonna make us forget Al.
Al was wrong for ruining M. Allen's career there's no defending that. But after that there's no evidence he was jealous of Gruden. But who was the teacher and who was the student? Your case would've had a bigger point if Raidernation hadn't kinda turned on Gruden II! you're defending a guy many fans blame for the Raiders' problems!
Sarkasian made a decision I can't say if it was smart or not! he was offered a job and took another 1.
Ummm....Moss never lost it! he faked it! you got paid! just play! dysfunction or bad team.
Now, as for nobody wanting to play 4 Al
coach Peyton could go with the Saints who were mediocre-average, nowhere near as talented as Raiders, no SBs', a good front office with some good coaches over the years but no legends(like Rooney's, Al, J. Jones, DeBartolo).
or Oakland who just lost a SB, had a great history, loaded with talent, had future HOFers on it, had a legendary iconic genius owner to learn from.
Now back to SOMEBODY if you're a bad team people can see it. Why would anybody ruin a teams and coaches chances to win unless there was a very big reason! People do that either to help or hurt and I don't think they were really helping coach Peyton.
The Raiders weren't very good? dude....this didn't start in '05, it started in '03. and a famous NFL media guy said they had no talent, virtually no chance of winning!
Again, a winning team, loaded with pro bowlers/ future HOFers. What happened other Anon!? NY? How do you lose talent/ get bad before guys leave!?
I think its' more than we think, the NFL is powerful and a corporation and has power so it can't tamper with/ intimidate its' member teams?
Regarding the link posted above, that's what I'm talking about. Media are not informed and can't be trusted to have the facts. In direct contradiction, here's another media report since your report...
"Apparently in response to criticism of their handling of Carr trade talks, which included a suggestion that the Raiders should approach a potential trade of Carr the same way the Texans handled a trade of Deshaun Watson, the Raiders mobilized Adam Schefter of ESPN to create the impression that the Raiders are doing just that.
As noted by Vic Tafur, who covers the Raiders for TheAthletic.com: “Nothing has changed. This is just word scramble.
"
IMO, giving Carr permission to negotiate with other teams and/or cutting him before the vesting date remove any leverage the Raiders might hope to have regarding Derek Carr.
Not saying neither will happen, just that stating what seems obvious to me.
I have said the league tampers with the Raiders every Sunday. I wrote on here how the league forced Elway out as a Raider. How Pete Rozzelle squashed the deal the Raiders had lined up to get Elway. As for assertion that the Raiders had a great roster, I think you have been blinded by homerism.
Peyton was a young man who wanted to be a HC very badly. Parcells knew he would be a HC one day, but Parcells said it could also ruin your career being the HC for the Raiders. Parcells advised him to pass and wait for the next one. Everyone in the world knew how toxic it was in Oakland, the Raiders were turning a corner with Gruden and Al working together. But Al wanted everyone to know this was his team and that was the end of that relationship. No HC for the Raiders could just be the HC, they actually had to take orders from Al and no HC worth his salt wanted to do that. Gruden was an OC when he was hired by Al, Peyton was an OC alomost hired by Al. Al didn't want a real HC because he considered himself to be the HC/DC.
Raiders never had leverage with Carr. The Raiders don't want him, they are trying to get a return for him before the Feb 15th deadline. Carr knows they don't want to pay him the 40 mill, so Carr will wait it out and sign a new contract with a different team, Tafur is right, nothing has changed.
Value? what does that mean? what does being worth billions mean for if you refuse:
1. to spend money to sign star free agents?
2. to keep the very best players for a long time with good contracts.
3. to make a loyal fan base feel respected by not over charging for tickets and parking.
4. to not spend on some of the best assistants/ front office people you can find.
* Whose career in Al's era ever was ruined after working for him?
J. Madden/ HOF HC, and 1 of the best game broadcasters and product sales people ever.
J. Fox/ was Raiders' DC coached the Panthers and Broncos.
J. Harbaugh/ assistant with Raiders.
D. Shaw/ worked in Raiders as an intern.
B. Walsh/ 1 of the best coaches in NFL history. good college coach
R. Wolfe/ HOF GM, worked for Raiders, helped 2 different teams become winners(Bucs and Packers).
J. Gruden/ won a SB with the Bucs.
L. Kiffin/ 1 of the best OCs' in college football.
H. Jackson/ 1 of the best OC's in NFL, now HC of Grambling St.
M. Shanahan/ 1 of the best OCs' and coaches in the NFL in the 90s'.
N. Turner/ had great career with Chargers. 1 of the best OCs' in the NFL.
B. Callighan/ 1 year as coach, helped lead team to the SB.
Whose career was ruined NY and other Anon?
You keep going to the same corporation that was rumored to have hated Al. because you support the new era that they suddenly love you. Wow!
* What do other AFC West fans think about fan's moving on from Al? they laugh! they respected him, they knew the game- the refs, scheduling, rule changes, out right tampering! SOMEBODY telling star players and coaches not to work for Al.
and when fans did complain- AFC West laughed and called us whiners, except some said its' great 'screwing' the Raiders but its' wrong. They saw this for years, Al and NFL feuding he did things to them and sometimes with team getting payback!
They saw the talent Al had and the strange games where they lost('90's-'11) and they(haters) were happy! they hate this team and fan base but they knew it wasn't ALL if ANY of Al's fault about the slump('03-'11). They saw Raiders win and lose and knew Al hadn't lost it.
The Raiders, suddenly weren't a problem just funny- something to make fun of.
Well, AFC West fans(other teams) feel Raidernation is much funnier. To support the corporation that hated him and were doing things to him is funny enough, but thinking the NFL really wants to help the Raiders(?) and going to the playoffs twice in 10 years is better than what Al might've done for them is 2 much comedy to hold in 1 room, that's enough for a comedy skit.
Clearly, the Raiders are trying to move Carr, and there's the highest probability he will be gone sooner rather than later. My posts are mostly in disagreement with the way this is going down and trying to understand the Raiders options (like it not, they have options).
First, I have plenty of complaints about Carr but I don't think he's the problem. He's got to be a top 10-15 QB in the league, so pushing him out the door means you need a better option. Right now, QB options are looking pretty thin.
Carr's 2023 salary is $32M, so he's not being overpaid for a top 10-15 QB. The rest of his guarantee falls to 2024.
My opinion has been - and it's only my opinion - that Carr should be given another year. More than Carr's "mistakes," I see McDaniels as ineffective in coaching him. We know Carr to be high-character and highly professional, so I'm increasingly concerned that McDaniels could have similar issues with any QB the Raiders might sign. IDK. Carr has a year into the system and would do better with upgrades to O-line and defense.
With Brady retiring, the Raiders might now stall contract talks with Jacobs to pursue Rodgers. Signing Rodgers will make them cash-broke to address other concerns, of which there are many, and likely lead to Jacobs departure as well. That sucks!
I anxious to see what happens, but certainly not beaming with confidence.
What's happened to the Pro Bowl? If they are going to give up and stop "trying" then why have it? I loved what Jacobs said yesterday about it, if you haven't seen it, look it up, it's hilarious. I loved the skills competition, and that should always be part of the weekend events; but play a game. If you go flag, then go extreme flag, where there is blocking and contact, you just can't take someone to the ground.
If I'm the Commish, I am moving the Pro Bowl as the opener of Pre Season the next year. Instead of calling it the Pro Bowl, I'm changing the name to the "All-Madden Hall of Fame Game" making the Hall of Fame game the new Pro Bowl. What a better way to celebrate than that?
Anyway, there is my complaint. When it comes to Derek Carr, the Raiders have no leverage here. Derek controls what will happen to him, and I think he is going to try his hand in Free Agency. If he is considered a top 10-15 QB, he won't lose money, and he will get to pick his destination without having his new team give up draft picks/compensation. The Raiders would also get a compensation pick for losing him. Teams I am watching for Derek to sign with that would be great fits:
Ravens - I really think this is the best fit for DC. There is questions about Lamar and if he will return. Current reports are they are no where near a deal. Lamar hasn't been able to stay healthy, and that has kept them from excelling. With options, they can afford to let him go and pick up DC and win.
Steelers - Kenny Pickett is not ready to take over this team. We will see what happens here, but if the Steelers want to win, Carr can come in for a few years and get them there while Pickett develops. I think this could be a possibility that no one is talking about.
Titans - Again, offense has weapons, and the defense is usually stout. They had some deep injuries this year that made the defense look flat; but they will bounce back. With a strong runner like Henry too, they could go far and contend.
Buccaneers - With Brady retiring, they are looking for a QB. Again, a stout defense, a strong O-line and good weapons for DC, this might be the underdog team that could be a great fit.
Giants - Depends on what happens with Daniel Jones and Barkley as a free agent. But the Giants HC is a guy who builds around the strength of his roster, and this is where DC can excel. Like the Bucs, I think this is an underdog team that would be a great fit.
Good fits:
Commanders - reuniting with Del Rio, but they are looking for an OC. They have weapons on offense, but they would have to look to build their O Line. Their defense ranked 3rd in the League. Not a great fit, but a good fit.
Saints - This could go extremely well, or a complete disaster. Their O-line struggled with injuries on the his year, and outside of Kamara, not many weapons. Yet, I think if DC came, you would see Jarvis Landry and Michael Thomas come off the IR. This is an intriguing team. Not sure it is a great fit.
Panthers - With Frank Reich and now Evero as DC, this team can turn it around next year in maybe 2. Reich wanted DC and talked Irsay into trying to trade for him. Without a QB, Reich lost his job. I think he's a decent HC; but does DC want to be a part of a rebuild?
Stay away:
Seahawks - Good weapons on offense, needs to build defense.
Colts - Media likes DC going here. No offensive line, not many veteran play makers here either; and it is really dependent on who they get as coach. Lot of red flags, but I think this could be more disastrous.
Nate, Carr is not a free agent. If the Raiders cut him, they will not be eligible for compensatory draft pick(s). At least that's my understanding.
IMO, the Raiders have more leverage than anyone is willing to acknowledge. Agree or not, like it or not, the Raiders have options.
As been suggested here, I disagree, on its face, any notion that hurt feelings or emotions will play into this decision. It's strictly a football business decision... one I'm probably not going to agree with.
I think it will take a lot to impress me after the trainwreck of a season Zeigler and McDaniels just oversaw. These guys grossly underperformed expectations.
Raiders don't have much leverage, and certainly do not control Carr's situation. The only other "leverage" that they have is they can save some of that guaranteed money against the cap after a June 1st cut/or trade. The problem with risking a trade is Derek Carr has to approve. He has a better opportunity hitting the market as a Free Agent to pick his place than he does with a trade. This is the business of the NFL from a players' perspective. For him to give that up would show he doesn't want to win, and wants the money. Not sure Carr is that dude. I think he wants to win. I'd even say he is willing to get cut, and play for less $$ if his opportunity to win is now; just like Davante did.
Outside of that, the Raiders don't hold the cards in this. Yes, they may have options, but leverage over the situation? Not much. Feelings and emotions play in to business decisions too, especially when a company treats its' consumers and employees like trash. A lot of business decisions that attracts more customers, while keeping its existing customers, is based on loyalty and goodwill. The longer the Raiders continue to shoot themselves in the foot, the more they lose consumers and employees over how they feel about the product and organization.
I agree that it will take a lot for Zeigler and McDaniels to impress me after this season and offseason. I'm not sure Aaron Rodgers would even make me hopeful for next season. I'm beginning to question if we will ever see a Super Bowl with a Davis owning the franchise?
The decision has already been made, hence the Carr tweets and, the Raiders want to go in a different direction. I would like it explained how the Raiders have leverage in this mess? Other teams know that the Raiders don't want to invest big money into Carr, the other teams can wait for Carr to be released because the Raiders will probably be unable to find a trade partner that Carr would agree to. Carr owns the cards, the Raiders can only hope there is another team desperate enough to give up some trade capitol to acquire him. Those are the options, if the Raiders were to bring Carr back, it would make the locker room a joke, it would be very destructive. Carr probably wouldn't come back, he would probably demand a trade, Carr is done with the Raiders, why do you keep maintaining that he isn't? Explain?
To NY Raider and other Anon,
When Al wanted to act up/ mess up he did it big! the Allen issue was a sad time in Raiders' history. M. Allen and B. Jackson not only were terrifying to NFL they nearly made us forget about any Elway trade.
Just using these 2(Allen/ Jackson) almost made the QB position unimportant. just draft a guy and let him hand it off but no, Al and Marcus had a feud and it ruined the Raiders chances of going to another SB.
The Jamarcus bust problem wasn't as serious, the Raiders had back up QBs' that could've taken them to the playoffs. The '07 team was good- the '08 team was unbelievable. DMAC was a rookie and that should've helped them win. Jamarcus didn't set the Raiders back.
Not giving Kiffin another chance, if he had maybe he could've been the next Al. He had it, a USC man who knows how to scout and was an outstanding OC but the 2 fell out but Kiffin also wasn't mature yet. Now, he'd be 1 of the best OCs' in the NFL.
that's 3 things that I'm sure had nothing to do with the 9 year slump. that's about all Al did to ruin a chance to win. I don't see anything else he did in the slump to ruin the team.
* Think Al was dysfunctional/ losing it? let me show you just how bad some teams have gotten in 1 decade and you can start to see there is something wrong with the slump:
Colts/ traded rights to QB J. Elway for 2 1st rounders and QB Mark Herman. They drafted 2 OLs' with those picks.
traded rights to LB Cornellius Bennett to Buffalo. traded WR Andrea Rison and QB J. George to Atlanta.
49ers/ traded QB Tom Owen and lots of high draft picks to New England for QB J. Plunkett.
Buccaneers/ traded high picks to other teams that would be DT D. Hampton.
traded rights to Earl Campbell to Oilers for TE Jimmy Giles and draft picks.
traded QB S. Young to 49ers for 2 2nd round picks.
let Heisman Trophy winner RB B. Jackson go after drafting him in 1st round.
new Raiders regimes:
traded pro bowl players for a lot of 1st round picks, none did much except 1.
had 1 really good draft and got a good QB. they kept him for years and then traded high draft picks for a pro bowl WR. then, they decide to get rid of the QB who has a huge contract.
they fire/ release almost all the employees and players from Al's regime without looking for young players or vets to help new regime win. they then replace them with free agents, injury prone vets and draft picks/ UDFAs'.
*Other Anon and NY Raider, you want to say things change(team's run), top teams get bad sometimes, but you want to give 31 other teams a pass on the same things you say Al did or went through that ruined his era.
You guys really need to stop making mistakes so bad they ruin a team and I know I need to give your opinions/ so called facts their say but you should know if other teams can bounce back from messing up so could Al.
With all respect, you guys have blinders on. If the decision has been made and the Raiders have no choice but to cut Carr, why haven't they cut him yet? Seems like a slam dunk.
If the Raiders have no options and no leverage, why isn't Carr a free agent?
Carr is under contract. The Raiders still control that.
As unlikely as it is, the Raiders can retain him ($32M salary in 2023 is half of Aaron Rodgers pay).
Raiders can try and work a trade before the vesting date (they could package Carr with Waller or Renfrow).
Raiders can allow Carr's guarantees to vest, then work a trade (risky and unlikely but available).
There are other scenarios too. Speak all you want as to how unlikely any scenario might be, but that doesn't make it untrue. Clearly, they are seeking trade options.
Again, if, as you say, the Raiders have no options and no leverage and they want Carr gone, why is he still a Raider?
When they cut him, that's when they're options run out. Not before.
Wow, you have a hard time digesting what has already been written here and everywhere else in the world. The Raiders are trying to facilitate a trade before the Feb 15th deadline, if they can't, then Carr will be cut. It's pretty simple, actually.
Then what about '23? is this another rebuild year?
NY Raider, you asked about the present Raiders and what should they do and I answered you but I want to put some more opinions for the '23 season:
1. they need to hit on a top RB hopefully, 1 with speed. I like the guy from UCLA he looks like M. Allen in his body size but I would hope they could find an A. Peterson, DMAC type.
2. they need to get a veteran QB IF they aren't rebuilding. they need to find a guy who can make those WRs' kick ass. I like M. Mariota and do something to help him become a better throwing QB- the mobility and talent is there. M. Ryan would be a great move, he is a star and would be able to make the receivers better.
3. trade Carr if you won't keep him. Carr has been a great guy and shouldn't be attacked for not cooperating with this regime, if he would work with them so we can get draft picks that would be great.
4. fans should send their complaints to Raiders web site or media about the power the team gave the Pats' guys.
1. the ticket prices are 2 high and need to be reduced.
2. fans from other states need special treatment discounts and coupons and free stuff to make up for the big money they're spending in L.V.
3. the Pats' guys need to not bring in a lot of mediocre-back up Patriots, they need to look for talent around the NFL and try to find some assistants with experience to help them find talent.
they need to make sure they get o.k. from front office to make big deals and don't have to turn us into a SB contender in '23 so if fans think they know how to find a star QB maybe the next T. Brady need to let them work to find talent and get people who can win maybe not like N.E.'s stars but good guys. They might find him or not but they need a QB, they probably weren't even there when Brady was drafted just get good players and maybe find a good vet QB maybe teach a project how to be an NFL QB(Mariota).
You contradict your own statements by saying the Raiders have no leverage but they are trying to trade Carr before the deadline, and if he's not traded he will get cut. If they have no leverage, they can't possibly facilitate a trade.
I posted 10x that I have no illusions about what's going on, only that options are still being pursued. It's pretty obvious because they could just cut him today.
The new Raiders once again, keep doing things that are maybe bad decisions or terrible moves. Yet the hope and the talent is there?
Does that sound familiar? Well, doesn't that bring back Raidernation/ media/ NFL criticism about Al's last era?
How is it that Al can make a few mistakes still have a talented roster with a good front office but just ruined the Raiders but the new era can:
1. mess up on 5 1st round picks.
2. fire 3 HCs' over a 9 year period.
3. trade star players for draft picks that they
4. lose a lot
5. trade some of the league's best WRs' for almost nothing in return?(C. Patterson)
6. bring in some of the NFL's best WRs' and lose them soon after getting them?(A. Brown, M. Bryant)
7. trading for injured QB(M. Flynn), then using a rookie QB(M. McGloin) over a young veteran who earned the job but got injured and needed time to get wellQB(TP2).
8. threw a HC under the bus after he lead them to the playoffs('16). firing him and hiring a new HC.
9. trading for a WR with high draft picks but not keeping a good young QB after allegedly making the trade to help him in the 1st place.
10. releasing/ trading and firing the 1st regime's best players/ coaches with no experience as front office leaders(GM's and owners). when they could've kept them longer to see if they could help.
NY Raider, Raider Nate I think we need to look at Al's past so we MIGHT be able to do better in the future.
Al guy, I'm stunned that your 2023 wish list has the Raiders bidding on Marcus Mariota and Matt Ryan for Raiders starting QB, you think we need a "top RB" despite having Josh Jacobs, and you never even mentioned defense or O-line as a need.
That's a wish list of status quo... or maybe we fall a couple notches lower. Ouch!
Well NY, it seems the new regimes can't seem to understand how a D-line should work.
That's because like a lot of teams they feel a team just gets a few star players then some big guys and coach em up.
This team has has some of the best edge/ DEs' in the AFC West and refused or didn't know much about building a powerful/ fast DL.
But how could the new regimes do it if they were trying to avoid the Al era and not use the biggest, fastest more athletic guys because the Bellichick/ NFL way was to mix a few stars with harder working, cheaper guys that can fit in a system.
So that's the thing go with the same 'ol system get your DE/ edge rushers and get big NG-like DTs' to push the pocket into the QB. It may work for the Patriots and Steelers- but guys! it makes things hard on the DBs'!
Now, Al's style is more like the Cowboys, and the 49ers. he liked taller, slimmer DTs' that could pass rush almost as good as the DTs. Guys like T. Kelly, D. Bryant and R. Seymore were guys that could sack the QB. If the Raiders go to a 3-4 it might not be a good thing. it would make it harder of the DEs' to rush passer.
Jacobs is exactly what Reggie was thinking of when he built those good O-lines. A guy that is good not great but that line can make him a star. He wouldn't be paid like a super star but play like 1. A guy like DMAC could make that O so scary it would be able to keep defenses from focusing on the QB.
Here is a look at soem of the players Al's Raiders, AFC West teams and the new Raiders have had since 2000-present(AFC West), '12-present new era Raiders and '03-'11(Al)- I think your idea that Al's Raiders
Al's DL 2000-'11:
R. Seymore
K. Wimbley
T. Scott
D. Bryant
T. Kelly
W. Sapp
C. Clemons
D. Burgess
D. Tollefson
J. Henderson
R. Coleman
Q. Moses
T. Armstrong
T. Bryant
T. Washington
KC '00-present:
C. Jones
D. Ford
F. Clarke
T. Hali
J. Allen
D. Poe
C. Dunlap
Denver '00-present:
N. Chubb
V. Miller
S. Harris/ UDFA by Raiders(Reggie).
D. Wolfe
E. Dumverille
D. Ware
K. Trailor
LAC'00-present:
Bosa
Ingram
S. Merriman
B. Melbane
new Raiders '12-present:
K. Mack
M. Crosby
B. Irvin
M. Hurst
D. Tollefson
D. Philon
J. Tuck
A. Smith
J. Tillery
Al looks good, Denver has a lot of pro bowl DEs' and KC 2, your 3 regimes look good but not like these other guys- they only have 10 years so you can't really judge them.
Denver and K.C. have stars the Raiders have a lot 2 but if I were to pick the best 1 it would Al but then again, Denver looks good.
I can see that Al has more talent than you guys want to admit! this is 2000 to present for all team except the new regimes and I see Oakland with a lot of good DLs' I thought going past '03 I would see good but not star players! Denver had stars and KC 2. I can't say who was the best of the 5 teams- what do you think about these DLs'?
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