2023 Draft Night Thread
Where was I...oh yeah, bye Derek, hello Jimmy!
A lot has gone down since I last posted. If I'm being honest, I wasn't broken hearted about the whole Derek Carr thing. I think he had run his course with the Raiders. If he was really going to pop, it was going to be elsewhere. On the Raiders, it just felt like rinse and repeat, year after year. Good with flashes of great. Eventually you need more than flashes.
We Raiders fans are so starved for an elite QB that we hallucinate potential whenever there's a new shiny object at the position. Stidham! Yeah, no. Mariota. Matt McGloin. Terrelle Pryor, Andrew Walker, Aaron Brooks...maybe just maybe just maybe, umm, no.
Now comes Jimmy G. There's a chance there. Maybe, maybe. But there's better be a Plan B in the works, considering how often he gets hurt.
Anyhow, here we are on the precipice of another draft. Who will the Raiders pick? How bullish are you on the immediate future of the team? Bang it here and grab your popcorn!
posted by Raider Take at 12:25 PM
368 Comments:
So true, we're so starved for an elite QB that we hallucinate potential. That list is incredibly long.
I agree it was probably time for Carr to leave, but, IMO, the Raiders failed Carr more than he failed the Raiders. He's arguably better than Jimmy G. Carr was the victim of bad coaching and poor defense. How did Patrick Graham keep his job?!
But it seems like it doesn't matter. The Raiders can't escape these issues no matter who is GM, HC, OC, DC, etc. Failure follows the Raiders and Mark Davis is right there to welcome it with every new regime.
So here we are. After an underwhelming and disappointing free agency period, the Raiders hopes for 2023 are almost entirely pinned to the draft. Without serious emphasis on defense, how can they possibly get better. Even with a good draft, 2023 is on shaky ground.
To recap, the Raiders have done little or nothing to improve the O-line and the D-line has regressed (with departure of run defenders). They cut a reliable long-snapper and swapped out Perryman and others for lesser talent. Where's that going?
Zeigler and McDaniels are on the clock!
I agree NY. I think it was more that the Raiders failed Carr, not just with poor coaching and defenses, but poor ownership decisions to boot. Carr wasn't the same after, not only breaking his leg, but his back, pinky, and as he shared recently on his nephew's podcast, a broken ankle.
The greatness of the Raiders always started with a stout defense, and then a reliable QB like Stabler and Plunkett. We had a reliable QB in Carr, but no stout defense.
As far as the draft, I'm sticking with my initial mock that I made in the last post. If you don't remember, here it is (in order, no trades): Joey Porter II, Hendon Hooker, Keeanu Benton, Sam LaPorta, O'Cyrus Torrence, Keion White, Jartavious Martin, Tavion Thomas, Charlie Jones, Warren McClendon, Isaiah McGuire, Shakel Brown
There's a change of pace. Raiders actually select a top ranked player. Wilson had 50 QB pressures last year. That sounds pretty good to me.
It's one player but the defense just got better.
How did the Texans pull off getting Stroud and Anderson?
Raiders make the safe pick, was hoping they would take Carter but they shied away from him. Need to get a RT and the rest goes to the D for the remainder of the draft, IMO.
Carr had definitely peaked in Vegas and was starting to go downhill. A new start with the Saints could re jump his career, then again, his love for the game could be waning, he took a lot of mental abuse in Raiderville.
Hope this new kid lives up to his jewelry collection, Mr T is jealous.
I believe they need a RG more than RT. Jermaine Elumenor held pretty well at RT, we had issues at RG, and suprisingly, Kolton Miller gave up more sacks and pressures than Elumenor last season.
Agreed on passing on Carter. I think a lot of teams are going to be sorry they did. Not sure how I feel about drafting another DE when that position is stacked, and we need help with DT/NT. Still need a QB too. I think we get Hendon Hooker. I may be dreaming, but I think he's the best QB option out there. I thought he was better than Stroud and Young.
Carter has been criticized for his endurance. But worse, he made a bad choice off the field ala Ruggs that cost lives, so I don't know how the Raiders could have ever made Carter their pick.
Carter will be much happier in Philly, surrounded by a better defense. Were as Wilson clearly looks like he belongs in LV. Raiders might want to consider a temporary handler for their high-stakes rookie. Following Ruggs and Arnette, they cannot afford another loss due to rookie stupidity.
Looking ahead, with Will Levis still on the board, I'm afraid the Raiders won't be able to pass on him. I have a bad feeling he will be a bust in the NFL. I'd much rather take Hooker, who's highlight package is one perfectly thrown long pass after another. Levis spends too much time in the weight room and not enough time in the film room.
But my focus is still defense. CB, LB or DT. OL is important too but let's not forget, the Raiders O-line blocked for the NFL rushing leader last year.
Time for the Raiders to change course on their decades long pattern of bad defenses.
Until Wilson (who we don't know for certain until we see him play), these guys have been par for the course for the Raiders selecting DE in the top three rounds.
Malcolm Koonce
Clelin Ferrell
Arden Key
Jihad Ward
Mario Edwards Jr.
Maxx Crosby was an incredible find in the 4th round. No team knew about Crosby. If they did, he would have been a top 3 pick in the draft.
Wilson is already being projected to play some interior on passing downs, so he can be on the field with Jones and Crosby.
Wilson wasn't just a safe pick, he was a smart pick. No guarantees. I was excited when Michael Huff was drafted by the Raiders, but then he underperformed. We will see.
Sticking with defense in Rd 2, Raiders might have access Joey Porter or Brian Branch at CB. But I might understand drafting from the freakish TE talent, or a top OG in Torrence.
To many holes to get fixated on one or two positions. Best available!
Carter could also be a freakish talent. Why on earth wouldn't he be considered? Why do you go on about past drafts? This is a totally different regime that has no ties to those days. Hooker would be the pick if QB is their target. Nothing wrong with having a Hooker in Vegas?
Talk about the past, getting Wilson at 1st and then getting the future QB in the 2nd. That would be very close to the 2014 draft. Mack and Carr.
You'll have to ask the Raiders why they passed on Carter. However, it's strange to me that you don't see any possible reason given similarities wrt Ruggs tragic car accident. The Raiders brass might be new to the scene but I'm sure plenty of folks in Vegas are acutely aware of the resemblance. Maybe it was a PR decision as much as it was a football decision.
If they Raiders hit on selecting Wilson like they hit Mack, that would be great. As to a QB being the second part of the 2014 draft reincarnation, Hooker, please, not Levis!
Rams pick before the Raiders and might be in the market for a QB, IDK.
My uniformed opinion of Wilson is that he's a high-motor player, like Crosby. I get the opposite vibe from reading about Carter, though some think he is the most talented player in the entire draft. Not sure what to believe. PFF had Wilson ranked like #7 for Edge players, meaning he should have been mid- to late round talent. Yet, most media pundits and perhaps even the Raiders were surprised he made it to pick #7.
IMO, the Raiders made a smart choice. It might be a "safe" pick but the Raiders have been grossly deficient at pass rush. This kid should change that. Not sure Carter could be as effective in that department.
They both get an "A" for bling at the draft.
"Ian Rapoport of NFL Media hinted... Members of the Georgia coaching staff are not Jalen Carter fans, and they weren’t bashful about saying so. It’s one of various reasons why Carter — arguably the best player in the draft — slipped to No. 9. But he still landed in the top 10, and he ended up with one of the best teams in the NFL. Now, it’s up to him to write a better chapter in the next phase of his NFL career."
Perhaps the Raiders weren't equipped to transition him to his "better chapter."
Re: Carter, given the Raiders recent track record with draft picks with character issues, it's sort of understandable.
Then again, Wilson has some medical issues, and drafting players with medical issues seems to be another perennial Raiders habit that hasn't panned out.
GM said there was a very thorough investigation into the injury and it was considered not an issue by all reports. If Wilson plays to his potential, he will be a very adequate pick imo.
Yup, we know Carter has issues, but wow, if he keeps his head screwed on straight, he can be an elite player. Must have been very hard to pass up on him.
I like the Wilson pick. Safe pick, but a good pick. It's defense...enough said!
The Raiders are not in a position to gamble on this draft. Like it or not, there were "red flags" about Carter off the field. The Eagles are already good. If Carter is too much to handle, they can just write it off, and still be good.
Looking forward, I hope the Raiders keep their eyes on the defense with 2nd pick. If Hooker or Levis slip to late second round, maybe should consider a trade up to get a Qb. But otherwise, stay focused on the D.
To Raider Take!
Teams that had some of the best drafts ever:
'81 49ers/ they found a top college HC but nobody expected them to start winning so fast. B. Walsh was genius and drafted some great players(R. Lott, W. Teal and C. Williamson).
'89 Cowboys/ with help from Minnesota new HC J. Johnson had a lot of picks to draft stars(T. Aikman, and E. Smith) they were one of the best in the NFL and went to super bowls in the 90s'.
'80 Raiders/ one of the fastest rebuilds in NFL history. Al traded stars J. Tatum, D. Casper and K. Stabler for RB K. King and star QB D. Pastorini. He trades for guys like Saints' DL Joe Campbell, DBs D. O'Steen, B. Owens and O. McKinney. They draft LB M. Millen and NT R. Kinlaw.
'70s' Steelers/ They had an outstanding front office and drafted some of the best players in NFL history(T. Bradshaw, F. Harris and M. Blount). They could draft from big, small and HBCU schools.
'80s' Bills/ with the Colts' help the Bills got good and star players and high draft picks to draft more(N. Odoms, S. Conlin and A. Reed). They were electrifying and exciting they were got talent to become elite and they went to the playoffs and super bowls but lost three times.
Al's good/ bad drafts: Most of the drafts over that nine year slump was good-very good. But he did make mistakes(J. Russell) but he had pro bowlers and elite players.
New regimes good/ bad drafts: Its' 3 different regimes and they've had good and bad picks. Even with guys like Carr, Mack and Crosby they needed more help; they didn't build veteran talent 2 help and they needed more than 1-3 good drafts 2 be a contender.
Our best bets:
pass rushing DT/ J. Tillery is our best hope right now but if we can find one in the draft fans who don't like him can relax. They will find a DT pass rusher but Tillery will be the other guy to use on passing downs.
QB/ Well, we get a vet and I guess he's o.k. but I really think they had a good QB with Mariota.
receivers/ wow! you have the edge and decide to get rid of it.
My Mock Draft:
1) Carolina Panthers (from Chicago)- C.J. Stroud, QB, OSU
2) Houston Texans Bryce Young, QB, Alabama U.
3) Arizona Cardinals Will Anderson, DE-Edge, Alabama U.
4) Atlanta Falcons(from Indianapolis) Anthony Richardson, QB, Florida U.
5) Seattle Seahawks(from Denver) Jalen Carter, DT, Georgia U.
6) Detroit Lions (from L.A. Rams) Tyree Wilson, DE-Edge, Texas Tech U.
7) Las Vegas Raiders- Christian Gonzales, CB, Oregon U.
8) Indianapolis Colts from Atlanta Paris Johnson, OT, OSU
9) Chicago Bears (from Carolina) Broderick Jones, OT, Georgia U.
10) Philadelphia Eagles (from New Orleans) Nolan Smith, DE-Edge, Geogria U.
11) Tennessee Titans Will Levis, QB, Kentucky U.
12) Houston Texans (from Cleveland) Brian Breese, DT, Clemson U.
13) Green Bay Packers (from N.Y. Jets) Jaxon Smith-Nibgiba, WR, OSU
14) New England Patriots Peter Skoranski, OT, Northwestern U.
15)Tampa Bay Buccaneers(from N. Y. Jets from Green Bay) Darnel Wright, OT, Tennessee U.
16) Washington Commanders Deonte Banks, CB, Maryland U.
17) Pittsburgh Steelers - Lucas Van Ness, DE, Iowa U.
18) Detroit Lions- Devon Witherspoon, CB, Illinois U.
19) New York Jets from Tampa Bay- Anton Harrison, OT, Oklahoma U.
20) Seattle Seahawks- Joey Porter Jr, CB, Penn State U.
21) Los Angeles Chargers- Dak Flowers, WR, Boston College U.
22) Baltimore Ravens- Bijan Robinson, RB, Texas U.
23) Minnesota Vikings- Calijah Kancy, DT, Pittsburgh U.
24) Jacksonville Jaguars C
25) New York Giants- Quentin Johnston, WR, TCU
26) Dallas Cowboys- Myles Murphy, DE, Clemson U.
27) Buffalo Bills- Jordan Addison, WR, USC
28) Cincinnati Bengals- Michael Meyer, TE, Notre Dame U.
29) New Orleans Saints (from San Francisco through Miami and Denver) Keon White, DE, Georgia Tech U.
30) Philadelphia Eagles- Brian Branch, S, Alabama U.
31) Kansas City Chiefs- WR, Tennessee U.
2nd round:
32) Pittsburgh Steelers Deward Jones, OT, OSU
Thanks, Anon, that's a pretty strong mock you had there! Fun history, too.
Interesting Day 2. Here are my takes.
TE is a position the Raiders loaded up in free agency, but Mayer is listed top-2 or top-3 TE in a deep TE field. Raiders were so giddy to select him, they blew a #141 pick to move up three spots. So Mayer cost the Raiders 2 picks. Raiders obviously believe he's worth it.
Hendon Hooker went in the 3rd round, two picks ahead of the Raiders. In a way, I'm disappointed but I have to trust the process (because I have no choice). If the Raiders scouted this guy and thought he could be a franchise QB, they should have drafted him in the 2nd round.
Byron Young excels at run defense but also has some pop to get into the backfield. He comes from a top program and should immediately help fill the void left by loss of Hankins and Billings. If Young is as good as his resume, this is a solid pick.
Tre Tucker is small and sneaky. Could be immediate impact as a returner, but also provides 4.4 speed over the top. CB would have been good here!
Day 3 prediction:
QBs are dropping down draft boards like lead weights. It's not the best QB class, but my hope is the Raiders have scouted a sleeper. You can bank on them taking a QB at some point. I hate to say it but it's the Patriot way.
Meanwhile, CB, OL and LB have been neglected thus far. Honestly, it can't all be done in one or two drafts. We are watching a long-term overhaul. That aspect sucks but it's still fun to watch.
Cheers!
Raiders just traded up in Rd 4. They must have a specific player in mind... and it's not someone the Saints will pick ahead of them.
Fascinating!
Raiders traded up to draft CB J Bennett. Not sure why they would pass on Ringo (PFF top-5 CB), who the Eagles took with the next pick.
Decades long?: No NY, it got bad for awhile during that slump but the Raiders' D over that 9 year slump wasn't that bad.
To other Anon: No, it wasn't hard to pass up Jalen Carter just as it wasn't to pass on C. Gonzales. They go with the SAFE pick; Instead of getting a true elite CB they get a good but not elite DE. Playing it safe is what the Patriots did except when getting WRs'/ CBs' from us other teams.
This is what Reggie did and Gruden II was pressured to do. They just aren't going to play Al and take big chances but the guy is a top 10 player.
* Wilson isn't as highly rated or athletic as the other edge rushers and the thing is, he is almost the same size as C. Ferrell, but its' a good pick. If they give him time, find DL talent and use their vets to help him he might be a very good player, not like Anderson Jr. or Van Ness, but can be a good true DE.
* No new regime has ever really been on the clock/ hot seat:
You keep talking like MD is running things and he's not! He didn't make many of Oak./ L.V. moves. They do it the 'NFL way' and they copy the model franchises(let the coaches/ GMs' and scouts run things). MD isn't trying to run things, people he allegedly hired are and he is supposed to let the front office do its' job- so he can only do so much, mainly business things, not football decisions and its' others making decisions. But fans/ media claim he makes the decisions and some have been bad I don't think he's making many moves. The Raiders also, don't seem to put guys on the hot seat when they keep making bad decisions and losing.
* They are having a very good draft but I still think they should've kept Waller. And they need to find a top CB and FS.
Wilson will help and if Tillery can play passing down DT well he might be able to get pressure from the DE spot.
Mayer is a good pick but if they kept Waller they'd have a top unit. I don't know if that meant drafting somebody else or drafting Mayer but Waller would've been a huge help with the Pat's guys new WRs'.
Raiders selected a QB in the 4th Round, Aiden O'Connell (Purdue). He is 6'3", completed 64% of his passes in 2022, 3490 yards, 22 TDs, 13 Ints.
The middle rounds were quite underwhelming as there were better talent available that they passed on and went a different direction. So far, this draft, for me, is a B-/C; but let's wait and see how they perform now.
I agree, the middle rounds were underwhelming. And with their defense practically a dumpster fire, the Raiders matched evenly offense and defense for their first 6 picks. Makes no sense to me.
In the end, these are the players the Raiders scouted. Clearly, they wanted these players badly, as they traded up three times, effectively using two picks per selection. They started the draft with 12 picks and ended with 9 players, demonstrating their urgency and desperation to select Mayer, Bennett and O'Connell.
Interesting too, the Raiders selected Wilson and Bennett in the same rounds (and ahead of) the Eagles selections of Carter and Ringo. Carter and Ringo were both ranked higher, respectively. I hope the Raiders didn't get schooled by the Eagles scouting. I'm more concerned about Bennett, who is reported to use his hands on WRs too much and could be a penalty machine in the NFL. I think Ringo was in PFF's top 5 CBs and was a media consensus best available when the Raiders passed on him. Eagles took Ringo with the next pick.
O'Connell? Honestly, I have no idea, but the Raiders again used two picks (trading up) to get him. Looks like a high-percentage passer but, again, Raiders took this kid over others who seemed to be higher rated.
Before I beat them up too much, it looks like their top 3 picks will have a chance to make an immediate impact. But will that be enough? There are 31 other teams, many of which clearly had better drafts, and better off-seasons than the Raiders.
I hope 2023 doesn't go down as a typical Raiders draft.
P.S. not a single O-lineman. I guess they believe they have that covered.
The Raiders have drafted 4 DTs over consecutive drafts and brought in many free agent DTs. This is a position group which they have clearly struggled to identify talent.
Better DT players have left the Raiders since the McZeigler regime began, e.g., Thomas, Jefferson, Hankins. Nichols has been a big disappointment. Billings was a solid run defender, but he's gone.
Zeigler and his scouts own the roster that starts the 2023 season.
The GM said he was going to draft the best player available and he seemed to stay true to his word. Drafting for position always falls flat. Gruden did that and his drafting was poor. Once again, the only true evaluation will be when they get to work on the field.
They are doing o.k. and they got the DBs' they needed but then I keep hearing these strange things about their moves.
Firstly, they started with 11 draft picks and with a little slickness, could've kept them and picked some star players instead they once again do the 'new Raiders' thing and try to steal starters from the other guys on top college teams.
Instead of picking Georgia's K. Ringo they trade up for an unknown then later pick Georgia's SS.
They could've drafted CB C. Gonzales making it tougher for QBs' to stay in the pocket instead picking Texas Tech's Wilson.
DT B. Young was a good pick but they once again didn't go for the pass rusher type DT. Now, that's not easy but they were loaded with picks before they started trading up for guys they might not really needed(Mayer and Young when they had Waller and Tillery and could've drafted Texas U's. M. Omojo).
As for the OL I thought they'd look for another RT but maybe they feel B. Parker can just do the job long/ good enough to help the O get going.
They really didn't take big chances to find sleepers but that's something that we won't know until pre season. Their RB unit is about power I guess they feel it wasn't a big deal.
It looked like they'd kick some ass but then they went NFL way and SAFE with a little slickness. The DBs' I guess they just don't see things like Al or Dallas. The TE position they had a top unit but got rid of it but Mayer is a good pick anyway.
The Raiders were SAFE and had a good draft anyway. They needed a huge, gold strike draft to build a playoff team. I guess fans are happy but they could've tried to get more star players by taking more chances, or trading a vet for one chance on a highly rated/ overrated players or drafting an elite player when they dropped to them.
They don't want to take chances and played it SAFE and they were cheap in free agency. Maybe they might build a good team but they decided to stick with their system of picking their guys and not getting elite players they might build a good team but they might've had a team full of stars to be a contender in the future- maybe play for the playoffs now.
Zeigler recently qualified "best available" by adding that "it's based on position of need." It was never based on all positions.
Regardless, they proved in this draft that best available is purely subjective. Many of their picks fell way short of any media/pundit consensus best available at any position.
After their first two picks, they didn't draft consensus best ranked player again until the 5th round, selecting the safety from Georga. Picking an undersized WR in Rd 2 failed every pundits post draft review. The CB out of Maryland wasn't ranked nearly as high as the CB the Eagles selected with the pick that followed the Raiders (who I was convinced was the reason they traded up).
The Raiders waited until post-draft to sign two undrafted OL. That's on par with other moves made this off-season, just adding bodies with no assurances.
I have no idea how these choices will pan out, but I believe some of the negative draft observations being made across the media are fair. To borrow a phrase, the Raiders draft was confusing. They had many chances to draft a top-flight DB, or even a LB or OL and they didn't.
Correction, the WR/KR was early Rd 3. Makes a difference, but not by much. This should have been a potential starting DB or LB, or OL.
Media/pundit consensus, hmmmm, there is a reason why they are in the media. Raiders tried to use one of those pundits as a GM and you complained all the way through it. Go back and look at those so-called experts mock drafts.
Media, pffft, they are all dummies and that is why they are on tv.
Teams go by the rankings on their own draft boards, they don't turn on the NFL channel and use their rankings, sorry to break it to you. Raiders would of had them ranked higher on their own draft board. Let it play out and time will tell us how good or bad it was. Declaring a bust or win at this point is kind of silly?
"Teams go by the rankings on their own draft boards"
Exactly! "Best available" is a mirage. To me, best available should follow some consensus. Instead, it's completely subjective based on a single team's board. Some boards are clearly better than others. The Eagles had no trouble drafting a consensus best CB one pick after the Raiders drafted a CB from obscurity (and it probably wasn't even a position of need for the Eagles).
And how did a WR/KR take priority over CB, DT, OL or LB for the Raiders 3rd Rd pick? This is the same nonsense we witnessed with past regimes. Early 3rd Rd pick! I hope the kid's good enough to make the team.
Bottom line, can anyone explain to me where you think the Raiders have improved in free agency and in the draft? Seems like they have created as many holes as they've filled this off-seaason, and they often reach to the middle or even bottom of the barrel for replacements.
While it's certainly possible to bring in bodies and coach players up, this crew has not proven they are capable of that... particularly on defense.
Following that draft, the Raiders should be looking to bring back Casey Heyward. Or why was Rock Ya-Sin only signed for one year?
Here were my picks, and where they ended up. A lot of them that I had for later-mid rounds went in the 2nd Round. I was blown away by that.
Joey Porter II (1st pick in 2nd Round by Steelers) I was surprised he went in the 2nd, and to the Steelers. I hate the Steelers, but they have a nose for great defensive players.
Hendon Hooker (5th pick, 3rd Round, Lions) I was surprised by this one. I still think he is the best QB in this draft, and the Lions got the steal.
Keeanu Benton (18th pick, 2nd Round, Steelers) This was another good pick by the Steelers. I hate the Steelers, but they seem to be consistently getting good players on defense.
Sam LaPorta (3rd pick, 2nd Round, Lions) Raiders did get the best TE, didn't think they'd swing for one as early as they did. LaPorta is not bad, but Mayer is better.
O'Cyrus Torrence (28th pick, 2nd Round, Bills) I didn't really think he'd go in the 2nd, but he did.
Keion White (15th pick, 2nd Round, Pats) same as above. I didn't think he had 2nd round talent or ability, but Pats see something with him.
Jartavious Martin (16th pick, 2nd Round, Commanders) another surprise mid-late rounder going in the 2nd.
Charlie Jones (29th pick, 4th Round, Bengals) Raiders passed
Warren McClendon (39th pick, Round 5, Rams) Raiders passed
Isaiah McGuire (24th pick, Round 4, Browns) Raiders passed
Undrafted
Tavion Thomas (RB, Utah). This is a guy I thought would have given us the Garner/Wheatley style running game with Jacobs. But he is currently in jail on domestic violence charges in SLC Utah. I think he will have a hard time finding an NFL contract, maybe XFL, after his sentence.
Shakel Brown signed as undrafted free agent with Tennessee Titans
And this is why they play the games, to see who is good at drafting and who isn't. Screaming about who is going to be a great player and who isn't at this point, we don't know. So kick back, get the popcorn, it's only the start of May, still time to fill more holes.
Who's screaming? Just making observations. I believe the Raiders blew some opportunities to improve the team in a more meaningful way. That's disappointing, and it seems to repeat year after year.
Do you believe the Raiders have improved in free agency and/or in the draft?
I'm only asking for an opinion, not prognostication.
I was really surprised by this draft and how teams value/rank players this season. I'm usually on point to how they are ranked on boards across the NFL, maybe off a round; but never off multiple rounds of where they are drafted like I was this year. If I ever had the chance, I'd love to be a scout for football or baseball; but this year's draft, I looked worse than Mel Kiper Jr when evaluating. It's as almost as the teams said, "Screw it, this draft is trash."
That was my biggest surprise overall.
As far as the Raiders draft. Tyree Wilson over Jalen Carter, I kinda get since Carter's incident; but talent-wise, I don't. So, I will take that as a wash. At least we didn't pull a Packers move and draft Lukas Van Ness, a guy who never started a game.
Mayer was actually the best pick in their draft; not going to lie, I thought he would have been gone in the first round. The same can be said for Byron Young at that spot, since some of the guys I had there were gone, like Benton, White, and Torrence.
Jakorian Bennet over Kelee Ringo is very questionable. Christopher Smith II (Safety) over Warren McClendon Jr (OT) was also suspect.
Our last 2 picks were pretty solid: Amari Burney and Nesta Jade Silvera. I'm pleased with both those picks. But again, my evaluation rank pre-draft was not there this year like it normally is. Not going to complain too much about it, but it greatly effected the talent level coming out in the draft and will greatly effect the UDFA's.
Wilson was clearly a solid choice. Mayer filled a need, but one created by McZeigler. After these two, it's wide open to debate. I didn't like that the Raiders only got 9 players out of 12 draft picks. Seems like a waste to move up 2-3 spots every other pick. Reaching like that for players, IMO, demonstrates a lack of confidence in their draft board.
It's a new regime who wants to build the team in their vision. I am going to give them at least a year of drafting before I rail all over them for being incompetent.
If you look at many teams, you will see the same kind of results. Teams see players in different ways than the avg joe. To say they were poor draft picks before stepping on the field, I would rather wait and see and see what they will bring.
1st 2 picks are very solid, after that, who knows. Time will tell, if it were that easy, everyone would be a GM. Mayer looks like a pass catching machine and he was the leader of the Notre Dame Offense. He is the kind of guy who can put the team on his back and carry them into the fight.
GM's always hit and miss, nature of the Biz. The good ones don't make a lot of mistakes or big ones. Compared to the drafts under Gru and Mayock, this one seemed more steady and more prepared, IMO. Again, time will tell so all we got is time now.
They DID find a pass rushing DT who is a pass rusher -its' Tillery!
He was a bust and not very good last year but he made some good plays. The Pat's guys didn't make a mistake when they re-signed him.
We need to look at other teams' 1st rounders/ busts and see if we can coach em up/ turn their careers around.
When Al did it we knew he would one day, hit on some bust, ex-1st rounder and turn him into a good player maybe a star.
He signed a lot of busts, ex-1st rounders and Heisman Trophy winners.
But since he passed and the media has conned Raidernation that's now off limits; no, you just draft SAFE and find good, cheap free agents and if some are ex-1s', they don't get paid a lot and there's no team program for ex-1st rounders to be projects/ restarted to be stars- they just get a chance to help.
Tillery has the talent but its' going to be on him to work hard. If they can coach him up, get him to work, have more to say at least listen to them and learn something and change some of the bad attitude, they might have a top pass rushing DT.
That NG thing is the Patriots' way. Al knew how to make pass rushers out of free agents, draft picks and UDFA DLs' but not only is this a new regime the Patriots like big DTs/ NGs' and don't expect them to sack the QB.
This is where the Pats' guys can learn something too.
Wow! they have a guy with talent and it may not work but at least they're trying to get him to be a good player.
Instead of putting down on Tillery we might want to have the Raiders use other teams'/ Al's ideas and sign some of these busts and they might see some big career turn around's and might have comeback story or a star.
I can appreciate your patience and noncommittal approach but aren't we (Raiders fans) well past another "let's wait and see" phase? Shouldn't there be a little urgency to the process, if only for the faithful? Besides, if media can get paid to analyze the draft, why should that be off-limits to us?
It sounds like the Raiders made two picks we can all agree on. Then maybe they'll find a hidden gem somewhere after that, or the wheels might come off altogether. We don't know.
Before the draft, Raiders were busy gathering bodies in free agency, but did little to stock the roster with uncontested starters. That left many holes.
Of course everything is on paper at this point. But do you think the Raiders are better (on paper!) than they were before FA and the draft? It's a fair question.
-Is Jimmy G better than Carr?
-Did they address the O-line?
-Is Mayer a smart decision over Waller, including the opportunity cost of two lost draft picks used to select him?
-Is Meyers an upgrade over Mack Hollins?
-Did they adequately address the defense?
-Is Spillane an upgrade from Perryman?
-Do they Raiders even have serviceable starters at CBs?
These issues (deficiencies) lend well to your patience and a likely 2- to 3-year program of incremental improvement (well, change).
What is speeding up the process going to do? It will only cause mistakes.
We all know the story of the Raiders and their fan's hardships, I've lived them too. The team is being remodeled, we should at least give this new regime to show their vision on the field before we call it a failure?
They wanted to work with Carr/Waller etc, but something happened, we probably will never know the details, but the new regime saw that a change of direction was needed.
Kicking and screaming about what we the fans deserve has no relevance in building a team and I hope that this new regime does not try to appease fans over building a perennial contender. It's gonna take time, it always does.
I'm not going to bang my head against the wall over trading lower round picks to get someone they wanted, or for drafting some guy over another in the later rounds. Who would of drafted Crosby in the 4th round today? Hobbs in the 5th? It's why they play the games.
You keep labeling my observations as "kicking and screaming." Far from it. It's just my opinion posted on a Raiders blog. Again, your patience is admirable, but that doesn't excuse the Raiders brass from doing their job. Clearly, we see it differently.
Look at it another way. Even after free agency and the draft, the Raiders needs remain mostly the same. OL, DT, LB and CB. Huh?! How's that possible?
They got caught flat footed, shuffling QBs, TEs, and WRs, all positions which by most accounts were filled by quality starters.
For a second draft in a row, they selected two DTs. Last year's selections were less than stellar. This year's, as you said, are wait and see. However, both are run-first DTs, which the Raiders created that hole in the roster by releasing Hankins and Billings.
Raiders are playing their own version of musical chairs... and, arguably, the talent level on the team has not improved since Gruden left. Can anyone make a case that it has?
To finish the point...
I'm hoping to pin my hopes on more than "wait and see."
maybe you can accept that they are rebuilding with the players they want, just like every other regime who takes over a team and that doesn't happen in a couple of drafts. In no way do I excuse mgmt from doing their jobs, that is an absurd statement.
It's May 2nd, still time to fill holes as more players will be available, it takes time, may as well see what happens, right? If they bring a mess to the field on Sundays, I will judge them then, till then, watching and giving them a chance to build their own team.
The reality of the situation is the team is going through another change, the new regime didn't work well with Gruden players, so it will be changed, again, that takes time. So you can accept that fact, or, you can keep yelling What Are They Doing?
You can repeat the "new regime" mantra as much as you like. Fact is, they've already made so many missteps it's starting to look like their MO. They miscalculated an entire season away.
It's kind of ironic, isn't it? Past regimes have thrown away lesser talent for hopes of better replacements. This regime discards its pro bowlers.
Interestingly, we are suggesting the same thing. No way the Raiders are ready for bear in 2023. This is at least another year, maybe two, in the making. And that's probably best case.
That's a tough pill to swallow for any Raiders fan.
Let's see what Sean Payton can do in Denver. That's the standard the Raiders should expect. It only took him a year to turnaround the Saints... and he's already made waves in Denver thru FA and the draft.
I guess I don't understand why we continue to set the bar so low. It's become a learned response for Raiders and their fans. Lather, rinse, and repeat! Why should this group be any different.
This is what we have been given, this is the circumstances. I can't change it, you can't change it so why all the smoke?
You did this when Reggie was letting go Hue players, you did it when Gruden was letting go Reggie players and now here you are doing it again. Talk about rinse and repeat.
All situations are different, Denver already has a stout D for Peyton to use. Carr wasn't a fit, Waller wasn't a fit, so it had to be re-done. That takes time as well a the D having to be re-done because the Gruden players don't fit this regime. So, instead of calling it a failure already, I will give them time to build their vision, get the popcorn and show me what they are making, then the results can be either criticized or given a thumbs up. What has happened in the past is not relevant to what this new regime is trying to do, so hanging on to that is not healthy.
You're right, we can't change it, but are we supposed to ignore it too?
Last year is an historical reference. It's in the books. Are we to wait until next year or the year after that to talk about last year? Did we just push the McDaniels honeymoon off til 2024?
History has a way of repeating itself, particularly, with the Raiders. IMO, it's the fans who are acutely aware of that, not any of these short-term regimes which continue to make many of the same mistakes.
But McDaniels is unusual, because the whiff on Derek Carr was huge. The way players were utilized last year makes me wonder if McDaniels ever reviewed tape of the Raiders successes in 2021.
If you think I'm wrong, tell me why you think I'm wrong.
I'll give McDaniels credit for somehow facilitating run blocking that produced the NFL rushing leader in 2022. That's pretty amazing considering the Raiders grossly neglected their O-line.
They brought in Adams, but that turned out to be a luxury the Raiders could not afford, trading away their top two draft picks. IMO, paying Adams his value only makes sense if you're a contender.
Uncharacteristically, the Raiders look like they made the best of their top two picks. I wanted them to draft Wilson. I don't get paid to scout, so that means nothing. Just my gut. Mayer replaces Waller, so that became a big pick at the Raiders making.
If they only hit on these two, it's a fairly decent draft, because these guys fill big needs. It could have been so much more with more urgency at key positions.
Building a team through the draft takes time and we need to analyze it in 25 and 26. As it relates to McDaniels he can be judged on his coaching last year. It was horrendous losing 8 one score games and blowing multiple double digit leads can't be denied or ignored. He is a crap coach and an uninspiring dweeb.
Sandy
Sandy, that's awfully generous. Building thru the draft is a myth, IMO. You can't field a championship team without savvy free agency. The average NFL career is about 3 years. The average NFL contract is probably around 3 years as well. Rookie contracts 4 years, plus expensive 5th year option. So within 4-5 years, you will have cycled through many key players.
The Raiders have cap space. I think Frank Clark is available. So are Casey Heyward and Marcus Peters. The Raiders could take a swing at this right now if they really wanted to, while Adams and Crosby are still on the team.
It was a mess, so bad that the preacher took his Bible home. Obviously there was a problem between his starting QB and himself, the HC.
IF the Raiders could have held most of those leads, they would have made the playoffs. Raiders aren't as far away as some think. If Jimmy G can have a good year and the D can be at least decent, there is a chance.
So Sandy has given up on the team again, I guess you won't be watching this year?
Building through the draft means you want the roster to be mostly your own picks. Of course FA is added to it. But building the core of the team needs to come from drafting. And then a steady stream of good draft picking will keep a team a contender for years. As we see with the Raiders, if the drafting is poor, the team will never get anywhere (the last 20 yrs).
To other Anon!,
What is this give the new regime more time!?
I thought we did that! Not to sound like I'm saying two different things. I think they deserve some to show what they can do BUT! now, I think some veteran front office people should advise them AND the Raiders should tell them when enough is enough.
One thing about McDaniels/ Zeigler they aren't so 'NFL way' they won't take a few chances sometimes. I love the Tillery move because it shows they'll give a problem players and athlete a chance. But some fans are totally conned by the system and don't want to see anything looking like Al's system(big, strong, fast, athletic players).
But don't get me wrong, I think they should be slowed down and let somebody else make some decisions on free agents. These guys aren't reminding me of Bellichick, J. Johnson, B. Polian or the Rooney's but they are doing things some good, a little rebel-like and riskier than the other regimes( like signing Tillery) but they also are still conservative and in the 'NFL way' and won't take that big chance to get a star player in draft.
They've had time to make moves and build up this team and didn't or couldn't do it. They could use some help and they need to find some older front office people to help them or the Raiders should start sharing the decisions/ get some NFL people to help the Pats' guys. The Raiders need some help and the team needs to start asking questions about the Pats' guys system.
That's odd because Wilson and Mayer are both big strong athletic players.
McDaniels didn't want Carr and Carr didn't want McDaniels.
Jimmy is a good replacement with a better winning percentage than Carr.
Now the HC/team have a QB that is what the GM/HC want and who they can have a good working relationship with. QB is the most important position, there has been a big change there.
They have made a lot of moves on the roster, they now have their players, their vision, so, let's see what happens, could strike gold, or could be more of the same.
"Jimmy is a good replacement with a better winning percentage than Carr. "
Jimmy has had less starts in his career than Carr, and the majority of his starts have come on a 49ers team that is known for their amazing defense (not offense). Jimmy got the job done in SF, but never the credit because the credit wasn't his. Put Carr as QB in SF, and they have a few Super Bowl rings to show for it.
IMO, Carr and McDaniels didn't work well together because Carr isn't willing to cheat or bend the rules like McDaniels wants to and is known for throughout his career; so he got rid of Carr and got someone to help him in his bidding. Either way, if this clown of a coach doesn't get it done this season, he should be shown the door.
I don't think he's going to be a good coach, not because he's unsmart, but because he doesn't know how to work with the strengths of a roster. Everything has to be done according to his system. Give me a coach who can work the strengths of a roster while building a system he wants, and we will win a Super Bowl again. Until then, it's "Just Prove It, Baby!"
O.K. other Anon,
M. Mayer is big and strong in a normal football player way, he isn't close to the athlete D. Waller is and Wilson isn't close to the kind of pass rusher W. Anderson Jr. is, he is considered a good DE not a speed rusher.
No, they could've taken Gonzales and had a shut down CB then, looked for an edge rusher in the 2nd round. They could've traded up for Mayer but kept Waller.
They are being cheap and slick(with the CBs) and haven't addressed the secondary, OL or LBs' and you say lets' see. No, lets try to save money and other things to get ready for a rebuild. We should ask the Raiders to lower some of their prices so more fans can afford to go to live games and have fun while in L.V.
This team, in a division with the super bowl Champions(K.C.), HC S. Peyton(Denver) and a very good young QB(LAC) they needed to kick some ass and it's not that they couldn't they just went with the rule and that's the Raiders aren't to look too much like Al's team try not to get too many elite athletes go with conservative football go with you own ideas. Well, this team replaced what they already had and have good but not elite college CBs'.
They seem dedicated and its' almost accepted league order that they get average-good guys and coach 'em up or guys they feel are steals or don't draft anybody. They won't go over this system too many times but they might have a few good(team) units but not a complete team to be a playoff team.
This is why they might need advisers, older NFL people to help them or use past winning teams' ideas to help this team win.
But giving them more time isn't a good idea.
Jimmy G has the tools to be successful. Raiders are loaded for bear on offense. They were last year too. But Garoppolo has worked with McDaniels. These guys know each other and respect each other.
It's the defense. It's Patrick Graham who is largely responsible for holding the Raiders back.
Tyree Wilson is a tremendous score. But so much more needs to be done. It's out there for the taking. Free agents are still available who would make the Raiders legit.
If we go into training camp and pre-season without any more movement, that tells me the Raiders are content to wait at least another year. That sucks!
They are not equipped "as-is" to keep up with the Chiefs, Chargers and Broncos (who will be getting their best from Sean Payton).
This is no time to wimp out.
PS McZeigler may think they can replace Jacobs next year but they really can't. He's a downhill machine at RB and secures the ball as good as anyone.
I'm still lobbying for 2023 to be the year. That's why I am so critical.
One more point needs to be made.
Raiders blew their backup QB situation. Bryan Hoyer? Really? And drafting O'Connell, who most pundits have to dig deep to even qualify as a career backup in the NFL.
The Raiders had Jarett Stidham, who knows and impressively implemented McDaniels system last year. The Broncos had no problem paying Stidham to be their backup. Why in the world would the Raiders let him go? Jimmy G has never played a full season in his career.
Just saying.
Gonzalez wasn't picked until 20 approx overall. Waller was like Carr, a Gruden guy who did not mesh with this new regime.
This is what happens with a new regime, they want their coaches, their players and no players who go against the message.
Is this a new regime? Yes, it's still getting what they want on the field, but that time is ending. There are no more excuses, they have been given their time to make their identity, now let's see what they have. No more, no less.
Crying about this guy or that guy is a waste of time at this point, let's see what goes down on the turf. Let's see what happens with FA's before training camp, still a long way to go.
If you watch O'Connell's tape, he has some very good moments. Why do you always call players busts before they have even stepped on the field? If you want the Raiders to win, then the team and the nation need to lose their losing attitude. Complaining and bellyaching is counter effective.
Raider scouts watched plenty of tape, they have had plenty of interview time with the QB, they have spoken to the college coaches, but here you are, declaring a bust without even looking at the tape.
Did you know there will be more backups available come close to Sept. Cheaper than Stidham. Stidham wanted his payday, Broncos gave it to him. 5 mill a year is too much and it shows that Denver mgmt are not very confident in Wilson. Stidham isn't the only fish in the barrel, but I know how you can get fixated.
New regime speak is being overplayed. They were hired to move the team forward, not dismantle it. Based on that, their Year 1 miscalculation was epic. You think "Carr went against the message?" Carr is probably the most coachable and accommodating player to ever put on a Raiders uniform. IMO, the Raiders failed Carr, not the other way around.
How insanely ironic would it be if Carr takes the Dennis Allen-coached Saints to the playoffs and the Raiders are still trying to figure out this new regime thing? That easily could happen!
Obviously there was a problem between Carr and McD, if you can't see that, that is on you. Nobody failed anyone, it is what it is.
The Saints are set up as a playoff team, all they needed was a QB. If you can't see that the Raiders are redoing the roster from what they took over from, again, that is on you. It is what it is, so, let them make their roster, with their players, just like when Reggie came in, just like when Gruden came in. It's the normal way of process when a new GM and HC are hired. Different personalities, different ideas on how to build a winner, all adds to a different vision. Who knows, they may strike gold, so, give them a chance to complete their process and then complain away, if warranted. Right now, complaining for the sake of complaining, that's no fun?
Jeez, Carr's career didn't start last year. The Raiders failed him for 8 seasons. They failed to provide adequate and consistent mgt/coaching. They failed to field a decent (average) defense. They often failed to provide an adequate O-line. The often failed in the run game, particularly, when they obsessed over zone blocking, requiring them to swamp out good players for scheme.
You can say these are the challenges every NFL QB faces, but the Raiders somehow exceeded all stupidity during Carr's career.
As for the Saints, why would you think they are any more prepared to make the playoffs next year than the Raiders? The Saints are coming off seasons at 9-8 and 7-10. The Raiders were 10-7 and 6-11. Both teams just signed new QBs. The primary difference is the Saints lost Sean Payton as their head coach and replaced him with Dennis Allen.
You don't see the irony? Dennis Allen and Derek Carr leading the Saints?
You believe the Raiders need more time, but I reject that on its face. Raiders can and should be a playoff team now.
The Raiders arguably have the best WR and RB in the league. If they are rebuilding, as you suggest, both these guys should have been traded for draft picks. Otherwise, why are they wasting our time? Adams and Jacobs have very short windows with the Raiders. That's how smart teams plan in the NFL. The Raiders aren't going to be able to upgrade from these guys. And McDaniels now has his chosen QB, with familiarity. Even more reason!
Of course they will continue to build through the draft (or at least try), but time is always in the present. You don't get many chances with players like Adams, Jacobs, Crosby, etc. The NFL is Darwinian and will eat up stupid teams, e.g., like the Raiders have been for too long.
The Raiders should only need a couple players which are still available to them in FA. My biggest fear isn't the Raiders roster, it's whether McDaniels has learned everything he needs to know about head coaching since his implosion in Denver.
Regardless, IMO, McDaniels is in a straight up comparison with Dennis Allen to see who can get the most out of Derek Carr. Let's not kid ourselves, that's going to be a subplot worth watching in 2023.
Carr got paid massive amounts of money to play, so there is your trade off. Raiders did what they could considering the circumstances.
Allen was hired because no else would take the job. Raiders roster was bad and no players wanted to play for the Raiders. Del Rio was hired as a step up from Allen, it didn't last long as Del Rio's personality lost the team. Out of desperation to turn the franchise around, Mark throws a boatload of money at Gruden to get him out of retirement. Then Gruden gets tossed from the league and now what looks to be another desperate hire by Mark with McDaniels. Hey, it is what it is, all we can do is hope for the best. This regime is trying to build the team under their image. I will give them the time to at least have a year with a QB he can work with. If they fall flat, then it's more misery, if the do well, that is all I am waiting for. The jury is still out. Saints play in a bad division, Carr should make hay in it.
His HC took the job(S. Peyton)! Why wouldn't anybody take the job if Al was gone?
Hue wanted to work for them!
Why didn't the dysfunction leave with him?
No, it wasn't not being able to hire a HC the NFL didn't want any big names in Oakland then and they don't now!
Most of the NFL wanted to play for Al's Raiders and if S. Peyton wasn' t
BTW- what is this obsession with guys AL hired first? You talk about how bad Al was(?) then you go looking for players/ coaches he hired first to rebuild the Raiders.
1. J. Harbaugh
2. J. Gruden
3. D. Shaw
4. OC
You have this none sense Al was still a genius and doing great things in the NFL('03-'11). He went well beyond what an owner/ GM should do. You said it yourself that his teams did have some good players but his dysfunction was just too much for them(?). No, we can't say why the team lost except that it didn't make ANY sense.
To compare these teams with his is a huge
MD hired these guys? Maybe but the NFL helped the Raiders make moves! The NFL wants us to go along , be happy and keep spending until they decide what to do with the Raiders. Its' all Al's fault and they're trying to get all his mess/ dysfunction out and one day this will be a real model franchise.
Wow other Anon!, you sure can be taken easily! you've been supporting mediocrity and a terrible game plan by the Raiders/ NFL. They just don't see the Davis family Raiders as being in the crowd and MD has done everything to try and show he's all in.
No!, we need:
1. to spend on star free agents.
2. push the media out of the locker room.
3. draft for high character but also speed, size.
We got scammed when Al passed and Hue was fired because we just didn't look at those nine years and ask questions. Now here we are dealing with a mediocre product making the same claims and having the same results as the other two new regimes.
Yeah, all the players like Randy Moss wanted to come to the Raiders. He wanted it so bad that he was mocking Art Shell as the ABC crew showed from the sideline on MNF. All the top coaches wanted to come to Oakland so the Raiders picked Allen just because.
Players and coaches alike have looked at Oak/Vegas as a joke franchise for decades. When Al was still here, the HC knew he would be taking his orders from Al. Shell knew it, Cable knew it and Gruden knew it and everyone around the world knew it. Only new HCing prospects or old and unwanted as a HC (Bugel) would coach for Al, any established coach with a decent resume wanted nothing to do with the Raiders.
Top players would not sign in Oakland because the team was run like a High School team. By the time Al passed, the franchise was so low that it almost disappeared. Mark had to take over and just rely on others to show him some ropes. It was such a mess that the team is still trying to dig out of that hole.
At least I am giving this new regime a chance with their own people, seems you gave up on the team when Al passed. You are an Al fan, I am a Raider fan. Your era has passed and you can't let go, that is not healthy.
No they haven't they don't look at teams paying them as jokes its' only when they get screwed out of their money or see that the team isn't committed to winning do they mock it.
In the case of Moss he just acted badly for no reason we can understand.
The new regime was hired after the NFL pressured the Raiders to pressure Gruden to resign had nothing to do with some great hire if that was the case you've already ruined your own opinion because two other regimes have failed when you claim Al ruined this team so if he's gone its' on them and please don't put coach Allen in Al's era. I'm claiming the new Raiders are a different team and ANYTHING they do/ done have nothing to do with Al's era.
McKenzie was against Al's era and Gruden II was pressured to not do anything to remind the NFL of Al except talk old Raider but don't make old Raider moves.
I Moss didn't want to go to Oakland why didn't he reject the trade?
What did Al's dysfunction have to do with him catching footballs?
If he got paid $9M and the Raiders allowed him to be himself are you telling me it was the lower salary and discipline of the Patriots that made him a good player again and when did he ever get bad?
Al gave him a chance to do things he couldn't with other team. But the team just couldn't work well together and coaches/ players didn't do well suddenly and Moss who had the best situation with the salary suddenly couldn't play harder/ make plays then started complaining later, after being traded.
Just as coach Peyton suddenly quit if he didn't want to work for Al he would've told him instead of calling him and telling Al he QUIT!
Which brings me to the other questions about fans like you/ media who claim Al was the worse in football:
players didn't want to come to Oakland?
Even though he ran a losing team, Al stood up with the players against the NFL's new CBA, he fought against the rule and worked with the players then he helped stop the players from striking
If Al stood up for the players and they knew he was helping them and if they listened to him and decided not to strike does it make sense that they wouldn't want to play for him?
No other Anon, it doesn't, anymore than supporting a mediocre regime doing the same things as other new regimes over the past 11 years('12-'22).
A joke? the joke is on Raidernation now! to let the NFL who Al was way ahead of, lead them is sad! the team is still losing, refuses to do much to win and fans still listen to them/ NFL after 9 years and Al's era was a joke? You mistreat Raidernation and refuse to let the team be itself and won't let them bring in elite front office people/ players- and fans get conned into listening to them that' just conning the naive and desperate(to win) knowing you really don't like us and its' sad.
The Raiders always were one of the top teams in special teams, D-line and receivers. They had some outstanding players, just lost a super bowl and had one of if not the best staff in the NFL in '03.
Even in losing Al was still doing big things like standing up to the NFL with the players. Wheres the joke in that?
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The joke is on us. Raiders have been grossly mismanaged and under-coached for decades. They have among the most coaching changes of any NFL team over the last 20+ years, if not the most. They have failed in draft after draft, including historic miscalculations like JaMarcus Russell, Rolando McClain, and more recently, Henry Ruggs, Damon Arnette, Cle Ferrell and Alex Leatherwood. Ok, give Ruggs an asterisk.
After so many failures, the bar is low. Another "wait and see season" is upon us.
Should we cue the participation trophies?
NY, you love the Raiders but have a very naive way of seeing things, you know teams don't get bad and stay bad for nine years they have to win sometimes and Al didn't just get bad over night and a team loaded with that kind of leadership and talent CAN'T keep losing like that not for three and for sure not nine, it had to be a bigger reason than dysfunction and bad decisions.
If Jamacus had been drafted by 31 other teams he'd been an o.k. QB.
BTW...I heard about one of your Al busts CB P. Buchanon from the Gruden trade the guy had six picks his first year and he was a decent DB for a few years in the NFL. Now NY, what Raiders' CB have come close to that in a season since his rookie year('02)?
Don't be too quick to put Al's draft picks in the mix with the 'new' Raiders.
Al was still a top NFL GM when he passed. Nobody can blame him after he put that personnel on the Raiders.
NY, you act as if the NFL is some kind of squeaky-clean, rule heavy business that is completely right about everything you can't be more wrong.
Al isn't the only owner they've intimidated over the years. He's the only one that upset the league and threatened their money.
This is about power and Al wanted his and the NFL wanted all 32 teams to respect theirs now, the billionaires/ NFL want that.
So when somebody decides to fight their plans they take action. Not thru just intimidation(blocking the Elway trade, telling the refs to screw a team or going to media about rumors about a team member/ owner) but they can:
1. block business deals
2. tell coaches/ players not to play for that owner(s).
3. use the refs to screw the team in important games.
These are billionaires some come from Wallstreet they have friends in politics, sports business and on Wallstreet they can mess with somebody and when you add that Al was already feuding with the league you can see there might be something to may claims.
The Raiders were loaded with talent, just lost a super bowl and had a genius running the team and then went on a nine year slump and all you can do is talk bad decisions. No its' more than that.
Huh? Please show me where I even remotely suggested the NFL is "squeaky clean." The NFL is as corrupt as any monopolistic org. or industry. However, all teams work within the same framework, which can be cutthroat. Al has been gone for over a decade and the Raiders have a brand new shining stadium and they still can't figure it out. It's not about the NFL. The NFL didn't make Al Davis and his successors hire all those awful coaches, nor draft all those terrible players.
Sorry but your perspective of the "poor Raiders" is misguided. They made their own bed.
And your endless list of Raiders players is confusing. You crisscross eras and assemble teams like you're transforming Mr. Potato Head into Steve Austin.
The Raiders are only as good (and bad) as the coaches and players they assemble. The results speak for themselves.
"Al didn't just get bad over night and a team loaded with that kind of leadership and talent CAN'T keep losing like that not for three and for sure not nine, it had to be a bigger reason than dysfunction and bad decisions."
This is the funniest thing I've ever read. Really? Dysfunction and bad decisions are not the true cause of why the Raiders can't seem to win? You don't even offer a reason for why they have been so bad, other than to say it is the NFL. The dysfunction and bad decisions are the SOLE REASON WHY THE RAIDERS ARE BAD, AND HAVE BEEN BAD, FOR GOING ON 2 DECADES NOW! Al's later years played into that role, not because of lack of talent, but because of poor management and coaching. Mark Davis carries the majority of the blame right now, for the same reasons, poor organizational management and coaching. The "NFL" does not control the individual teams. The only team who is ran by more than one owner is the Green Bay Packers, who are owned by the community, and have an elected figurehead (CEO) to run the team.
The Raiders were defending AFC Champions, they were loaded with elite/ pro bowl talent, they had a genius running them.
Their players were better and they had a ton of qualified front office people to help run the team.
Then, they went on a nine year slump(?).
Oh, not only do you have this way of trying to make a league so mediocre and corrupt look 'Squeaky Clean' you even suggest that they somehow NEVER did anything and that all their claims of not being corrupt are true; the fact that the players tried to strike should let you know something was wrong in the early '00s'. Its' not strange for workers and ownership to feud and you have the right to take sides but when you see unfairness and a money scheme(NFL trying to bring in billionaires/ get legal help against law suits) but cap player salaries- its' a little hard not to question their plans.
The media immediately defended the owners, trying to make it seem they were being squeezed by the players when in fact they took over the NFL for reasons more than just money.
The billionaire owners didn't know or care that a guy working in Alameda, CA could cause so much trouble for them.
Until they saw him:
1. complain against their plans
2. exposing them to the media who defended the NFL.
3. vote against the new CBA
4. work with ex-Raider and NFLPA boss Gene Upshaw to help players get the highest salaries possible.
Your wonderful NFL tried and did screw over the players. They had a plan and wanted all 32 teams to cooperate. All owners had to be all in or the billionaires might not come into the NFL and they wouldn't show owners how to be wealthier.
You put down on a guy who did so much for pro sports then defend guys who worked for a team known for screwing the Raiders and who continue to be mediocre and you call my FACTS funny?
Al's list of AWFUL coaches(head coaches):
1. N. Turner/ kicked our asses for years with S.D. was one of the best OCs' in the league and worked for Dallas was a decent HC in Washington and a playoff winning HC in S.D.
2. Hue/ one of the best OCs' in the league. Had one of the biggest scoring stats for Raiders in years. Was a top assistant in Cincinnati. Helped lead Raiders to two 8-8 seasons. Cleveland job wasn't his fault in fact wasn't completely running that team. Now a college HC.
3. L. Kiffin/ had a lot Al liked now a HC in college.
4. S. Peyton/ Al HIRED him but he suddenly wanted to quit. He was hired not offered a job and turned it down. Super Bowl winning HC in N.O., now a HC in Denver.
Raidernation wants a change but its' funny they don't think a genius who built their best teams wasn't good at finding coaches yet, seem to want the guys he hired:
1. J. Harbaugh
2. D. Shaw
3. B. Musgrave/ both Al and Reggie hired him.
4. Gruden II
5. S. Peyton/ Al HIRED this guy and somebody told him to quit.
This is who Al hired so you really need to ask yourself/ all of you- the media and some fans facts/ opinions about Al's hiring style are the stories/ claims most people have about it true?
Nobody wanted to work for Al at the time because of his dysfunction and bad decisions. Norv Turner proved he was never a HC, would always be a better Coordinator (I feel this way about McDaniels). Turner was a great dude, but was over his head as a HC because he insisted on running the offense instead of coaching the whole team.
Hue, I think, would have been a great HC if he had someone like Reggie to help guide him. Lane Kiffin is not even a good college coach, and Al wanted Sarkisian at the time. But Sarkisian was not going to work with the dysfunction of the organization, even outright said it.
Let's look at the other awful coaches he hired in his latter years: Art Shell II, Bill Callahan, Tom Cable, and Joe Bugel (after Mike White). The bad decisions he made on the coaching front was ludicrous. The dysfunction of the organization at the time was worse. Turn the page, the Raiders have been bad for 2 decades now because of dysfunction and bad decisions, both of which have gotten worse since his son took over.
Al Davis is the sole reason we ended up with the head coaches that Nate listed, plus Lane Kiffin and Hue Jackson... because Al ran the show, nobody else, including and especially the NFL.
As for your so-called elite Raiders during and around 2002, Al "the genius" traded Jon Gruden in his prime. As critical as I was during Gruden's return to football, he was heading the Raiders in positive direction during that time. Every Raiders fan was crushed when Al traded Gruden to the Bucs. But just like with Marcus Allen, Al did not like Gruden being the face of the organization. Result: Gone!
Raiders have made one stupid mistake after another for at least 20 years. You do realize the Raiders haven't won a playoff game since 2002, right? There are no silver linings in losing in the NFL. Having a few good players who post nice stats is not worthy of our discussion in 2023.
We should be focused on the present Raiders, hoping they don't become like those past failures.
There are generations of fans with only see the Raiders as losers. Let that sink in for a minute. Player stats won't cure that.
Many who have posted here at Raider Take have talked about the margin of error being razor thin. But that conversation has existed here since the beginning of time. I'm no longer convinced that winning is truly a priority anymore. Raiders have ample revenues from being in Vegas, win or lose.
In the end, Al Davis started this spiral. He does not get a pass. IMO, the Raiders doom is as big a part of Al's legacy as any winning season.
To NY Raider and Raider Nate!,
No, the new Raiders haven't won a playoff game since '02 so did Al but don't make it 21 years no its' nine years from Al and 12 years for the new Raiders/
See the main thing that makes your claims questionable is the fact that:
The new Raiders moved on from Al's era. They don't use ANY of his ideas, they fired ALL of his front office staff and players.
They follow more so the Bellichick system and other model franchise's ideas.
Nobody coming to L.V. can draft for size, speed or athleticism, spend big on star free agents or give guaranteed contracts.
They don't put the secondary and pass rush above other things, they don't look for elite running backs or special team'ers (kickers).
They refuse to move on from the NFL way and find their own system even though the team has been losing for 10 years.
They will make terrible but money making decisions to over pay QBs' and coaches money BEFORE they win a playoff game. That will sale lots of jerseys of players(QB) who haven't really done a lot a big NFL money making scheme.
They put Raidernation third and, even though I admit I can't prove they don't really care about us or that they haven't tried to have a relationship with us its' strange the things they do to upset us knowing this is one if not the best fan base in the world.
The new regimes NEVER had a solid unit or won a playoff game and they continue to use the same system. Fans continue to let the league scam them and take their money.
Was Al so bad that you would listen to the same system for 10 years? That's not a joke?
This thing that the '03 Raiders were the worst is only credible because of loses but when I see the personnel and front office something is wrong. When a league and owners help it find front office people and makes big promises but don't deliver not only that but its' been 10 years since they made those promises I think maybe fans siding with the NFL shouldn't listen to everything the media/ NFL claims and attack Al and not ask questions about the NFL and their actions.
The "New Raiders" since 2002? You're joking, right?
The guys in charge now have only been here for one season, but you speak of the Patriot Way as though they took over in 2002.
Al Davis was running the organization for almost a decade after the SB. Those years housed some of the worst coaches, the worst draft picks, and the worst dysfunction in Raiders history. That's not just my opinion. It's all documented.
Then Al left the org in the hands of Mark Davis, but never groomed MD to run the show. Arguably, that cost the Raiders another 10 years... and still counting.
Are you trying to rewrite history?
The NFL has evolved. Dare I say, even Al wouldn't be running the show the way you keep harking back to. The Fred Biletnikoff helmets with the single brace against the front are gone. You will need to visit Canton, OH to relive the glory years.
"Then Al left the org in the hands of Mark Davis, but never groomed MD to run the show. Arguably, that cost the Raiders another 10 years... and still counting."
Careful here, NY. Mark admits that his dad tried to teach him the ropes, but Mark has admitted that he has a difficult time getting rid of players and organizational people because he cannot separate business from relationship; unless you try and take advantage of him the way Mark Badain and company did to him in Oakland (paying 3 times the rent to O.Co). Al called him dumb because he values relationships so much.
If anything, I think Mark Davis values a system like their historic rivals the Steelers. If there is any team he is trying to imitate and build like, it is Pittsburgh, not New England. Mark Davis feels that Dave and Josh can bring that style to his organization, and if they do, good for them.
Anon, I'm a Raiders fan, and I love this team, but I love them enough to care that I don't believe what they are selling anymore. I do not see a Commitment to Excellence, I do not see the will to Just Win, Baby! To be frank, I haven't seen it in a long time. You are right, Al didn't make the playoffs his last 9 years. But that was due to dysfunction and bad decisions. What we are saying is the dysfunction and bad decisions have gotten worse. I actually agree with you, I don't think Josh McDaniels is the coach that is going to turn this around. Why? Because he doesn't know how to coach a team, only one side of the ball, and he is so obsessive about it, it has to be his way or no way. That will always be a coaching disaster. The only place that works is High School and College.
With that said, I do believe that Dave Ziegler is going to be a good GM. I like Dave, he is all business, polished, and keeps things close to his chest. Loose lips sinks ships, and his lips are sealed and he has brought a lot of the mystique of the Raiders back with that. He, right now, is the only bright spot that I see. At the same time, I believe Mayock would have been just as great.
Nate, evidence to the contrary. Mark Davis grew up surrounded by football and Raiders internal workings, but somehow allowed the Raiders to implode after Al died. He brought in Reggie McKenzie (more Raiders nepotism) and left everything up to him.
There's really no excuse why the Raiders have been so bad for so long. Even a broken clock gets to be right 2x a day. The Raiders haven't been right for over 20 years. Two winning seasons (10%) and zero playoff wins (0%).
Worse, there are people actually defending that record.
As for McZeigler, the Raiders are out of options. This current regime has to work. They laid an egg last year, so all we have is hope and speculation.
Sadly, if it's not the Patriot Way, it's the highway.
Mark was shunned by Al, Mark was not involved in the internal workings as he was growing up. He was treated like a redheaded stepchild by most in the Org. So when Mark took over, he had no idea, he was being consulted in all his moves. No one wanted to work for Mark when he took over the team, it's like they were an expansion franchise starting from scratch. But Mark has done well for his expertise being strippers and chicken strips.
That's kinda what I thought... but funnier.
I think Mark's relationship with Al, or lack thereof, has been pretty well documented.
However, the Raiders were, IMO, more than an expansion team, even in that dark period. The Raiders certainly weren't bad because Al died. That started well before. But they actually had some chops on offense when Hue Jackson was OC, then Jackson allowed his ego (emboldened by his relationship with Al) to get the best of him. Unfortunately, the timing of Al's death left Jackson briefly in charge. And in Raiders fashion, Jackson wasted valuable draft capital for Carson Palmer. Enter McKenzie, and he blew up the team.
You couldn't make up all the stupid stuff (and decisions) that's happened to the Raiders since 2002. It's cumulative and beyond comprehension.
When Al did pass, one of the 1st order of business was to re-do the front office. They couldn't believe that a pro sports team was still run in the fashion Al left it in. They said it was like entering a time warp. Al always refused modern technology to help run the team. His scouts were limited and he would make all final decisions. This is just one example of why the Raiders were falling behind all other franchises.From top to bottom is where the river flows.
To other Anon, Raider Nate and NY Raider,
Al DID have a game plan? it was called Al LoCassale and probably some kind of ownership plan for MD who wasn't going to be the president but the team owner.
FOA...Al wasn't expecting to die but he had president(s) and friends(LoCassale) and others on the business side to run the team.
Wow! so you think computers build a great team? Well Dallas has done it for decades but you don't think guys can use their experience and gut to find good players?
Al picked a lot of future HOFers(Alworth, Stabler, Upshaw) without computers. And BTW do you think his scouts and personnel guys didn't have them? They did- Al didn't so, you take media/ NFL claims without looking into them.
Hue wasn't going to run the whole show either, it was going to be him, LoCassale and the President(s) to run the show and that was ALREADY in place.
MD NEVER wanted to get involved in the football side but then again Al's enemies NEVER thought they'd have a chance to get inside and destroy his culture.
How can a team that just lost a super bowl be MORE than an expansion team? when have Al's Raiders EVER been close to an expansion team?
And if you want to say it happened over a period of time(9 years) that might make sense except all the talent of the roster/ front office makes your claims look bad.
They were loaded with pro bowlers, good players and future HOFers. They had seven future HOFers(R. Woodson, J. Rice, C-Wood, W. Sapp, T. Brown, R. Moss, R. Seymore) over that nine year slump and a genius running the team. And if you think just 2 of these guys wouldn't make a bad team a little better then, maybe you just don't want to see something might be wrong with the media/ your claims.
With PARITY you trying to say the Raiders took such a huge fall they couldn't play elite or at least contender football?
So the Raiders were worse than 31 other team with some of the best players and front office people?
That others' modern ideas and systems were not only better but the Raiders couldn't beat them?
That they made more bad decisions and mistakes and were so stuck in the past and against each other they became the worst team even with some of the best rosters in the NFL?
Wow! you guys post claiming to be open/ fair mined but need to question your ideas.
All those star players were gone shortly after the 2002 season because of age and wanting out (Woodson). If you actually look at the rosters you are hyping, they are all very mediocre, to go along with mediocre coaching and terrible draft picks. How could all go so wrong?
It was a perfect storm of bad, and just when it started to turn around (2016 and 2021), it reverted back to bad.
As I said before, you couldn't make it up. 20+ years is a long time to go without a single playoff win. Plenty of blame to go around.
I don't know what to say now! you guys just stick with your versions of what happened!
Even if they has big holes in them. All of us need to question our versions of the Raiders.
But one thing is true we all love them...right!? Go Raiders!
* They had another o.k. draft that they purposely avoided being great. They keep selling us coach 'em up players you know, guys with talent but not elite or even sure starters.
T. Wilson/ very good but- he isn't an edge he is a true DE there aren't many 270+ edge rushers. He'll be good if they don't over use him and move him all over the line he isn't a DT type.
B. Young/ Well, they finally started looking at smaller DTs' to help with the pass rush. Young ISN'T a pass rusher but being smaller, he might have some speed to help in the pass rush.
M. Mayer/ Its was a great pick but it could've been a luxury pick if they hadn't ruined one of the best if not the best TE unit in the NFL. He isn't in Waller's class as a receiver but is more complete- Still they could've kept both.
Bennett/ Why did they pass up on Georgia CB Mingo? Sure Philly/ NFL didn't ask them to let Eagles swipe him? or was it just plain arrogance? They wanted their guys and forget that Mingo was a top college CB.
They started out great then they slowed then they got average. They wanted to do things the Patriots way and if they think they know how to draft good players I can't judge them until pre-season but it seem. If they think they picked top players or can coach these guys up then o.k, but letting elite players slip by is being stubborn and taking a chance with their jobs- if the Patriot way says get unknown/ good players o.k. but a losing team should sometimes take stars even if they may not look like NFL stars, take some college stars if they fall to them.
* If were supporting another new regime then we have to know we had great history but we don't have any now. So, we have to go with what we have. We have the NFL/ Patriot way so that's what fans want to support.
Our greatest history was with Al and all the none sense about how bad he got because he was NEVER really bad during his career, then at least bring facts. The '03 season had maybe, the best team in the AFC if not NFL but it just lost, that's your best argument, but as for blaming Al- they had pro bowlers, future HOFers an were an outstanding team before '03 season started.
All the great players left after '02?:
There were four future HOFers and some pro bowlers on that '03 team so I don't understand the 'no talent' or they left claims.
If the Raiders were falling behind these early 00 franchises it wasn't because they were out done by any of them. Its even harder to understand you point since they were DEFENDING AFC Champions when they just lost(?). Your claims make it seem like suddenly, 31 other teams found elite coaches with new O and DC ideas and the Raiders just fell behind them. You might have a point about losing but that claim is just being conned and believing media none sense.
Wow! you sure can come up with reasons to forget Al's era than to be glad we had a winning history- being honest but also posting like NFL/ media hate has you confused.
Honestly, I cannot figure you out. You act like we're ignoring the greatness of the Raiders following the 2002 Super Bowl season. You keep looking past the Raiders records to find some silver lining that doesn't exist or blaming the NFL for mistakes that clearly fall on the Raiders.
4-12, 5-11, 2-14... those are not serviceable seasons in the NFL. They came with high draft picks which the Raiders (NOT THE NFL!) squandered year after year.
I know 20 years is a long time and maybe you forget all those miserable seasons, but you can't rewrite history, as much as you appear to want to.
"T. Wilson/ very good but- he isn't an edge he is a true DE"
The Raiders will probably never draft an EDGE, because an EDGE is truly for a 3-4 defense. Don't know if you noticed or not, but the Raiders run a hybrid 4-3/nickel; which means they need a true DE. So Tyree Wilson will not only fit the Raiders scheme, but he will do so better than an EDGE
"Young ISN'T a pass rusher but being smaller, he might have some speed to help in the pass rush." If you actually watch college football, Saban took Young out on passing situations, so he was never given a chance to rush. In the Sr Bowl, he actually rushed the QB and did well. So, my take is he doesn't have the stats on rushing the passer, but not by his choice. The same happened with Ngata when he came in the NFL, and look how he turned out. I think Young has that potential to surprise people with how well he actually rushes/pressures the QB.
"All the great players left after '02?"
Actually it was '03 after Gannon got injured, and yes they left because of Bill Callahan, who took over for Gruden and (according to Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, and others on the team) sabotaged the game plan in the Super Bowl.
After the '03 season, Al Davis had a difficult time putting together competitive teams with competitive HC's. He never went after the big name coach, he always wanted a coach who was up and coming. Why? He didn't want to pay big money for a coach. He'd never offer any coach a 10 year $100 million contract. So yes, his Head Coaches were mostly not elite.
My non-prediction prediction for 2023.
By strength of schedule rankings, the Raiders have the 10th toughest schedule in 2023, and it's a buzz saw out of the gate. That does not bode well for their latest iteration.
Of all the really bad years the Raiders have had, each off-season is usually filled with some hope and anticipation of betterment... some more than others. IMO, this has to be the least inspiring off-season I can remember.
After a face plant in 2022, free agency was underwhelming. Raiders arguably lost better players than they gained, including at QB. Rookie class looks like it has some pop, particularly, at the top.
Sadly, it all boils down to coaching. McDaniels and Graham both failed miserably last year, and they are left with coaching a roster that arguably is no better than the one they failed.
With that said, the best of the Raiders roster, e.g., Adams, Jacobs and Crosby, had stellar seasons last year which will be tough to duplicate. For the Raiders to improve, these guys may need to repeat.
Back to the schedule, it looks the same as last year, with the Raiders playing out of their division against the Dolphins, Steelers, Colts, Patriots and Vikings. How is that possible? And then add in the Bills, Giants and a loaded Jets team.
I hate predicting W-L record, but I feel like we are back to the slow and incremental steps to mediocrity which have become the Raiders MO.
Raider Nate, NY Raider,
We had a lot of choices to pick a system and show our loyalty to. Remember, its' the fans not just the team that is important in
The Raiders decided to again, get their guys instead of snatch up elite players. They tried to play smart/ GM and made trade maybe they didn't need to make.
CB/ K. Bennett isn't the worst pick but man they could've picked Georgia's Mingo. The Eagles HAVE a defense and didn't need help from the Raiders. They have good CBs but not like Al's big, fast top NFL units.
S/ Unlike Al, Gruden even Reggie they don't really think safety needs a lot of help. They passed on CB Mingo but drafted Georgia SS Johnson and they think he might be a steal, o.k., but doesn't this sound like plans from the NFL/ Patriots' way of building a team that the new regimes were going use to help us win and give us a chance to compete with elite teams?
Epps should help he played for a top team isn't a top SS but should help the team needs more results from FS T. Moehrig who is doing o.k.
LB/ Now, they haven't been able to find that TE covering LB, its' not easy but the new regimes are not the best at finding LBs' and that's including cover LBs'.
Special Teams/ they saw that area was o.k. except for the KR/ PR spots. They didn't decide to rebuild the kicking unit but they maybe caused problems by letting the LS(Seig?) go.
Pick a system? What system? Is the Patriot way a system? Wait, please don't answer that.
And what "elite players"? You've posted so-called elite players since 2002 over and over on this blog, but none have won anything for the Raiders.
Raiders don't need a system or elite players to win. They just need quality players and coaches who can get the best out of those players. That's been lacking in Oakland and LV since Musgrave left.
Here's a bottom line for all of us to chew on. After free agency and the draft, the Raiders still have the same weaknesses they started with.
DT
LB
CB
S
OL
These were the concerns entering this off-season, and they remain concerns. The Raiders arguably regressed in some key positions and/or depth.
So that's the complaint we might expect to hear from coaching; 'we still don't have the players we need to operate our system.' That's B.S. IMO.
When the Raiders kick "system" to the curb and coach/scheme to player strengths is when they will start winning again. Maybe they will. IDK.
Also, if I were part of the Raiders brass, I'd post a picture of the Chiefs doing ring-around-the-Rosie for all players to see every day at the Raiders facility.
If the Raiders continue to make their existence about "system" and "elite players," as they have in the past, they will continue to lose. That's my opinion.
NY, not only do the Raiders have the same weaknesses that we started with, they have progressively gotten worse talent wise. Maxx Crosby, Josh Jacobs, and Devante Adams are the only "star" quality names that they have, and Josh is holding out. McDummy has rid himself of big contributors to the Raiders' success they've had to build a team to his system because he cannot coach to the strengths of a roster.
Not only that, he's replaced these big contributors with people who are injury prone, and unproven at their position. Jimmy G is not a better QB than Carr. He has yet to play a full season, and if you were to put Carr on the 9er teams that Jimmy G played with the last several years, he would have had multiple Super Bowls by now.
Seriously, I doubt the Raiders break 6 wins this season. Not hating, but the talent has dropped, and key positions have been severed and not replaced with equal talent. I'm tired of the "Rah-rah-rah, it's not as bad as we look" mantra the Raiders have grown accustomed too. It's time they show something, it's time they get back to a Commitment to Excellence and winning. I don't see it happening this year (or next).
NY Raider and Raider Nate!,
SI did a story about the Raiders' history saying they REALLY didn't start winning until about '67. We know that's NOT ALL THE WAY true.
I guess they were talking about titles and Championships not just winning games.
Al came to the Raiders in '63 and started winning for years. Later, they started winning divisions and NFL Championship titles.
But it seems that you and some fans are confused or naive about pro sports. You said something very naive, not silly but something a guy watching pro sport for years should know.
NO you don't build a team with just good players and coaches oh, it can win and with PARITY might even go deep into the playoffs but NO it takes special people and or a lot of good situations going right for an average team to win in the NFL.
If you're saying the Raiders just needed good decision makers and good players/ front office you are being naive or just plain confused.
It took an Al, C. Knoll/ Rooney's, J. Johnson/ J. Jones, B. Bellichick and B. Walsh/ E. DeBartolo to build those elite teams you keep trying to pretend were average teams.
So here it is you want to make a claim that is very naive- claiming all teams need are good front offices/ players to win.
* If Al hadn't come to Oakland:
1. No 'bump and run' system for NFL DBs'(I give Steelers' CB M. Blount some credit too and maybe Al would've did it with the Chargers).
2. the Raiders might not be one of the best franchises in pro sports history.
3. Raiders' HOFers' might be Chargers' HOFers on not at all.
4. there might not be an NFL combine(some claim Al's actions started the combine system).
5. the Raiders wouldn't have Raidernation (Al helped create the fad).
When the Raiders won in '83 that rostet didn't have good players they were very good to elite players they kicked ass. The '80 team was rebuilt over the off season and was very good they also had some things go their way when they could've been eliminated from the playoffs.
Every NFL team has good players/ front offices because they know the game but you have to be well coached/ disciplined and average or very good/ elite to win in the NFL.
The NFL/ Patriots' Way idea that bringing in average-good, tough, high character guys put with outstanding coaching and discipline can beat anybody was made legit but its' not the only way to win.
Raidernation has supported this system for years and has gotten little from it. Mainly because the NFL has problems with them still, and they've allowed outsiders to ruin the culture and some of those outsiders are Al's enemies. The team doesn't have to win to make the NFL money because they've moved to L.V.
No, if Al hadn't come to Oakland we wouldn't have the history we had and pro sports might not have some of the things it found/ had with Al's help. So there is a difference between good/ well coached teams and elite talented ones. Some teams, a few, can be cheaper, coach great and use discipline for stars/ average guys but fans should support it if they want but not think that's the only winning system. IMO...the elite teams are more exciting to watch.
IMO, your vision of the Patriot Way is, well, way off. The Patriots have fielded their share of wayward individuals, including Raiders' castoff, Randy Moss. They've had more than their share of your so-called elite players, starting with Tom Brady, Vince Wilfork and Teddy Bruschi.
You're correct about good coaching. Only the Raiders have swapped out coaches like underwear. There are teams in the NFL, like the Steelers, which can count total number of head coaches in their history on one hand. The Raiders need all fingers and toes just to count coaches in this century.
Raiders have proven (over at least the past 20 years) not every team has a "good front office," as you suggest. The missteps are a matter of historical reference. No need to sugarcoat it.
NY Raider,
Excuse me!? When the Raiders started their fall they were DEFENDING AFC Champions and one if not the best team in the league!
No NY, you don't just start losing and keep on for nine!
* What is the PATRIOT WAY!?:
1. you find the best coaches/ front office possible who will work together who believe in discipline and preparing for any kind of team they have to play.
2. you manage the salary cap- you have limits to how much you'll spend on anybody and no/ few star players will pressure you to pay them you can do without them.
3. you draft guys who are passionate, smart, tough with high character; you want guys that fit in your system, they're mostly, average-good players who can be put in a system and get coached up into a unit that can beat anybody. They don't have to be the biggest, fastest guys. Sure, if some team like the Raiders will give you elite players for nothing in return and they'll play for less then fine, you'll take them.
4. you want to speak out, be in a union, got something to say bad about the NFL, want to help the(NFL) players you shouldn't talk too lout about it,
5. be a model franchise set an example don't embarrass the league. the system of being average but well coached, prepared, managed salary cap and one happy team(?) is what a model franchise does.
Some teams just didn't want to use that system(Patriot way) it wasn't about helping them it was about money.
The Patriots represent a cheaper, more conservative way of winning and the NFL has helped them promote that system around the league.
That's the NFL! this is why the
Everybody is supposed to support this system so that star players will be FORCED to go only so high for a big pay day all teams have a cap and the star can get a better deal from somebody but only a little more than the other team.
* Al saw the corruption not in the Patriot way but he NFL about player salaries.
Al's Raiders stood up to the NFL and its' the Raiders who went on a nine year slump.
They suddenly lose after three years of winning and can't even win one Wild Card birth in nine years('03-'11)?
And you guys can't see something is very wrong with that is just plain sad!
The 'Patriot way' is being cheap and using old school discipline and good coaching except they choose average guys over big names/ elite players.
That's cool if you want to use that system but when you look at it the Raiders did things differently but they did things good enough to win. If they did fall it shouldn't be to the bottom because they didn't EVER make ANY decisions so bad or get so dysfunctional to be the worst team in pro sports a year after being the best in the AFC.
* And as for Raiders' coaches, the Steelers are one of the best teams in all of pro sports but the coaches Al hired ALL SHOULD'VE been able to lead the Raiders to the playoffs('03-'11).
Kiffin was immature, Shell/ Cable should've taken us to the playoffs, Hue was an outstanding HC, Turner was a good HC.
Shell should have taken the Raiders to the playoffs in his 2nd stint? Hue was outstanding? Turner was good? In what world?
2003 the Raiders got old, Callahan gave up on the team, Gannon got hurt and that started the amazing career of Kerry Collins as a Raider. The team fell apart and most of that team was gone the next year. Maybe take off those Al Davis glasses and then you can see reality.
Al made the Raiders the worst team in pro football after being AFC Champions and over a nine year period? He was a great GM then turned terrible because of his dysfunction and the Raiders have been the worst team in NFL history over the 21 year period? Keep talking about their past and making past players more than what they were? Dude...he was a winner and then a loser and his history is the worst losers in NFL history over a 21 year period? Really?
Some historical facts on the teams that look better than the new Raiders and may be playoff teams:
New England has won seven super bowls and are the only team are one of the few with a short time between winning seasons
The Steelers are the other AFC team that has been winning but they haven't been back to a super bowl in awhile(fourteen years).
AFC-
NY Jets- haven't been to a super bowl in 54 years.
K.C.- it took them 49 years to go to the super bowl.
LAC- haven't been to the super bowl in 29 years.
Ravens- defense, played in slow, not very exciting super bowls haven't been back to one in 10 years.
Others who've been to the super bowl but didn't fall apart for years but still didn't go back to the super bowl for awhile.
49ers
Broncos
Steelers
Eagles
NY Giants
Seattle
The Raiders haven't been back in 21 years but they started losing as defending AFC Champions and were still very talented with a genius running the team. They didn't make any worse decisions than ANY of the one year/ short time winners, winning and super bowl repeating teams.
Losing kind'a makes your points look good except there is no evidence Al did ANYTHING to make this team fall. The Raiders had just as much talent as ALL the one year wonders/ short time winners and winners you see on this list.
Everybody makes mistakes and has issues before a season and his was no worse. The Raiders had enough to repeat. Claiming some kind of bad decision by Al or teams caught up to them sound silly. They lost, that's true for sure, but nobody can explain how ANY NFL team can just lose for nine years.
Al's Raiders in '03 had the talent to win and the front office to win but didn't but it wasn't Al's fault and it's not being unrealistic, its' calling haters haters(media/ NFL) and saying a situation is very suspicious and not easy to explain.
Anon,
You're talking in circles. You last post is back to the original point:
"Al didn't just get bad over night and a team loaded with that kind of leadership and talent CAN'T keep losing like that not for three and for sure not nine, it had to be a bigger reason than dysfunction and bad decisions."
So again, I will post the reality of the situation here:
The dysfunction and bad decisions are the SOLE REASON WHY THE RAIDERS ARE BAD, AND HAVE BEEN BAD, FOR GOING ON 2 DECADES NOW! Al's later years played into that role, not because of lack of talent, but because of POOR MANAGEMENT and COACHING.
Mark Davis carries the majority of the blame right now, for the same reasons, POOR ORGANIZATIONAL MANAGEMENT and COACHING.
The first (poor organizational management) effects the second (poor coaching). What is sad is that the poor organizational management is not going to change overnight, but there seems to be pieces in place to change that with Sandra Douglass Morgan. As far as the football side, I do like Ziegler a lot more than Josh McDaniels. I think Ziegler will be the GM long after McDaniels is gone.
No one is saying that Al alone made this team the heap of garbage it is today; but he did have a part in it by not repairing the dysfunction and bad decisions at the organizational level and coaching level. I am not just talking about Head Coaches either, I'm talking about assistant, positional, and strength/conditioning coaches that were not getting the job done, that Reggie cleaned house on when he stepped in. I'm also talking about Marc Badain and company, taking advantage of Al in his latter years and Mark Davis' inexperience. There is a reason why Mark Davis recently fired the whole front office of the organization, and it was getting ugly.
It's not "one thing" that got us here, it was several years of dysfunction and bad decisions that led us here. Yes, Al bears some of that responsibility, maybe not all 9 years of it, but maybe the last 6 years of it. Mark Davis owns the majority of it by not correcting it earlier. But to his credit, I think he has learned from the mistakes of his early years with the whole Marc Badain and company situation. Now he is in the seat to build his legacy as owner, but he is now starting to look at the teams' viability when his time is done. I can only hope that Amy Trask is the next owner of the Raiders.
"Excuse me!? When the Raiders started their fall they were DEFENDING AFC Champions and one if not the best team in the league! No NY, you don't just start losing and keep on for nine!"
Actually, that's exactly what the Raiders did. They face-planted in the SB against their former HC (because their new HC didn't change the playbook/calls) and then they proceeded to faceplant multiple seasons in a row.
Grudens mistake was he could think for himself. Soon after he left, the Raiders became the laughingstock of the league. Players on other teams compared having the Raiders on their schedule to having an extra bye week. That's real, and it was on Al's watch.
The list of coaches is astounding.
Bill Callahan
Norv Truner
Art Shell (Part II)
Lane Kiffin
Tom Cable
Hue Jackson
Dennis Allen
Tony Sparano
Jack Del Rio
Jon Gruden (Part II)
Rich Bisaccia
Josh McDaniels
That's 12 head coaches over a 20-year span. You do the math. Nobody can win with that level of turnover at HC.
It's been said here by other Anon and repeated by many others over time, Al only hired HCs he could control. Lane Kiffin didn't get that memo, prompting Al to fire Kiffin "for cause." Hue Jackson was easily the biggest ass-kisser. Norval and Arthur shared a common blank stare on the sideline. And Al obviously wasn't happy with Tom Cable because he backstabbed him by hiring Hue Jackson to be OC, then HC.
If you were a Raiders fan over this period, you know I'm not making this up. As I said, it's all a matter of historical reference. It's in the books.
You can interject all the "elite" players you want, the facts don't change.
Newsflash: Devante Adams is not buying 100% into the Raiders plan on offense. His words sound downright skeptical. He is quoted here...
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/davante_adams_has_doubts_about_raiders_vision_for_their_offense/s1_17236_38821170
come on, man. He says at the bottom of the article that he doesn't even know how the O is going to be run.
“It all depends on the style of ball that we play,” Adams said. “If we play a certain brand of ball, I can get [Garoppolo] to conform to whatever. But if we use him a certain type of way, then it’s going to make it tough for us to maximize who we should be this year.”
you like your click bait, don't you?
Now NY, I want you to look at some of the things you said.
You hope an ex-Raider is a future owner?
Now NY, what have I been saying for a long time about the new regimes that they all have in common?
THEY GET RID OF OR SUDDENLY AL'S EMPLOYEES GET FIRED/ LEAVE!
An old Al Raiders' employee?....you think the NFL would go for that!?
Reggie tried to fire/ pressure to leave ALL of Al's employees.
Al's employees suddenly started leaving when Gruden/ Mayock were here and
More employees left this year with the Pats' guys running the team.
Dude...the NFL don't want nobody connected to Al to run the Raiders!
Bad decisions? without Al the NFL would be far less exciting and
* You want to believe the NFL bought this excitement? It was the AFL and Al that made the NFL more exciting and Al did a lot:
suing to move teams to other cities(Al didn't create franchise free agency but he added the law suits to help teams move).
the 'bump and run' system used by CBs'(Steelers' CB Mel Blount might've helped develop this system).
Al didn't create the modern passing game by himself but he helped bring it to the NFL.
the Combine
Raidernation fan base/ He didn't create it but his winning history got some fan(s) to create it.
having a big edge with Special Teams/ drafting some of the best punters in NFL history, then finding good coverage guys and kick returners was something Al did.
working with players and the NFL union/ Al wanted the players to have some say in how the league is run and get paid well and have benefits after they retire.
That's what Al was doing in his past and you guys want to ummm....move on from that!?
So again, you want to support waiting and expecting the same system to turn around the Raiders. You want to believe Al was the worst GM over a nine year period but can't even see that this team isn't being helped by the NFL but used by it and isn't just making bad decisions its' bad because the NFL is inside it and it just hasn't found the front office to rebuild it.
Click bait? Adams concerns are a direct quote.
The new Raiders seem to be hard to the core when it comes to dealing with players and this is the system you support?
If a guy don't get along with the front office trade/ release him. If a guy has some baggage he can't come here(depending on the problem). Sometimes you have to keep a complaining player(pro bowler with complaints or a guy with contract demands) or try to get the coaches to put up with a problem player until he works with the team or is released/ traded. Al was good at giving problem players a chance/ keeping guys who wanted more money and threatened to sit out.
But the owners, all of them, not just these billionaires don't like to deal with those problems. The Raiders' have a problem with unhappy/ problem players and will quickly, get rid of them.
I can't think of too many other teams that will do that. I don't even think Bellichick will just get rid of them without trying to negotiate with them first. Don't get me wrong the Patriots are one the teams that will do it- maybe a little quicker than the new Raiders but they will try to work things out first and, they are winners and can replace even a good player if he is a problem- they will find a way to keep the team moving.
Watch out!, D. Adams is complaining and if he keeps on they will trade him. So, who do you think will be the top teams offering a trade with the Raiders?:
1. New England Patriots/ how many times have they conned us out of top WRs' for little in return(R. Moss, C. Patterson, D. Gabriel, N. Agholor, A. Brown)? Oh, they'll make the excuse that they have J. Meyers, M. Mayers and ex-Patriot receivers and that they now have good player some from that championship system(Patriots) and when the season starts and they go against the top teams we might be disappointed.
2. Indy Colts/ the Colts don't have the talented rosters they have had over the years and they could use a pro bowl WR. The Raiders love o
3. NY Jets Oh, yes they are loaded with WRs' but if A. Rodgers can get somebody to help sell more NYJ merchandise that would make the league very happy. The Raiders might get one of their top WRs' or maybe one of their DTs'.
#1 Hey Anon, It was me (Raider Nate 75), not NY, who wrote that I am down with Amy Trask owning the team. She has more football savvy and business sense. She is an Al disciple, and wouldn't take crap from anyone. She is well respected in the League, and is very smart in how she handles business and herself. She knows the League inside and out, and has great ideas on how to make the game more valuable for the fans. More so than the current owner. After all, her nickname was given to her by Raider Nation, and she still wears it proudly, "The Princess of Darkness."
#2 - Don't forget the Saints wanting to trade for Adams.
The article that NY posted is not click bait. Adams clearly expresses he has concerns with the Raiders, but also expressed he is willing to give it a try up to a certain point. He seems to indicate there are certain things he is unwilling to do.
Davante said he didn't understand how Josh's offense is going to play out, but the way it seems to be going, he is not on board, he is going to have to be convinced. He talked about Jimmy G not going to be able to use his deep threat abilities. If you look at what he says, one can get the picture that McD and company are looking at running a Bill Walsh style offense and use Adams like Jerry Rice. Big WR, on quick/deep slant routes up the middle, and using his speed to gain big yards. I don't think Davante is down with that.
At some point, you have to stretch the field, and you have to have a QB who can stretch the field. This is what is so baffling to me about the fascination with Jimmy G. He has a noodle arm, and cannot throw downfield with any type of accuracy. I don't think this is going to end well, but as Davante says, "I will have to be convinced." Just Prove It, Baby!
"The new Raiders seem to be hard to the core when it comes to dealing with players and this is the system you support? If a guy don't get along with the front office trade/ release him. If a guy has some baggage he can't come here(depending on the problem)."
Those statements couldn't be any further from the truth. Not sure who you're talking about "supporting "the system." But that's the old Raiders you are describing, benching players like Marcus Allen, Jerry Porter and others. And "if a guy don't get along with the front office..." Who are you referring to? Mack? Antonio Brown? Randy Moss?
I'm curious, how do you know the system the Raiders will run if Davante Adams doesn't even know?
Honestly, I have to apologize because maybe it's because I just don't understand your posts.
As for Davante Adams quotes being labeled "click bait," Adams himself took to Instagram to backpedal his remarks. That speaks for itself.
I only suggested this might be true, but an unnamed Raiders insider has made a more definitive public statement...
"The Raiders roster is worse than it was last year, when it was 6-11 with Josh Jacobs leading the league in rushing. Jacobs is great, but that’s not happening again."
The Raiders have lost Rock Ya-Sin, Billings, Hankins, Perryman, Mack, Harmon, Carr, and Waller, to name some of the more notables. Their replacements are mostly a mixed bag of underwhelming vets and rookies. Remember, the Raiders had plenty of cap space and draft capital.
IMO, it's never been more incumbent upon the Raiders coaches to prove they can coach.
NY, Per your post the secondary, lb and o line the three weakest units last year have gotten worse. Rock was the best of a weak cb group and Perryman was a pro bowl linebacker. On the offensive line it looks like they'll be bringing back the same group. Pretty pathetic all around. Especially with the loser like McDaniel's coaching. Sandy
NY Raider,
Supporting the NFL/ 'Patriot way' system? Raidernation/ other NFL fans- Oh yes!, you've been almost all in on the cheaper, conservative and greedy system that most NFL teams use.
That's where it would be so easy to put down and criticize the Pats' guys-
The new NFL has no patience with stars asking for huge paydays. They've created a system that caps vet salaries and keeps them from making big demands that teams are forced to pay to get him. When a player makes a big/ outrageous contract demand an owner can refuse and the star can go somewhere else for a big pay day but when he does other owners will offer AROUND the same money as the first team, he'll get almost the same attitude from most owners and he can get more money from a team but it'll only be a little more than the others.
That's the 'NFL way', billionaires were invited into the league to make it more powerful and wealthier and these people aren't trying to spend a lot of money much less let some old guy run all over them like he did the old NFL owners.
AGAIN!, nobody loyal to Al is gonna be invited back! do you understand that!?
That was why Reggie was hired by the other owners to ERASE, GET RID OF ALL of Al's era on this team- players, coaches and business people!
The first things they did was fire a lot of his front office people!
The one thing these new regime don't do is rehire or bring back Al's ex-players/ front office people unless they are with the 'NFL way'.
Gruden II/ was paid to keep us in
Reggie/ was hired to get rid of Al's era
Pats' guys/ the first regime not connected to Al with no game plan but doing the same things as the first two new regimes. Which is playing around and not working hard to build a winning team while the fans have to deal with more losing and rebuilds.
And you really believe Reggie fired all of Al's employees to start a rebuild? You think they want to see anybody connected to Al working with the new regime?
An ex-Al employee coming back to work for the new regime? the NFL would go for that!? They did all of this rebuilding/ hiring new regimes so an Al employee could come back?
So you think Reggie fired Al's employees because they were mostly bad weren't able to do the job?
Wow! Raidernation you really can be naive and not get the point very quickly!
"Nobody loyal to Al is going to be invited back."
What does that even mean? Are they kicking Mark Davis out of the building? Is this the year they remove Al's eternal torch?
Al's front office was fired because they failed miserably. Why do you doubt the facts? Is there a secret to repeated 4-12 and 2-14 records that we should know about?
Reggie McKenzie represented more Raiders nepotism. He's ex-Raider and family. His hire led to more bad decisions.
How is it that you're so cleareyed on all the Raiders internal workings and somehow that overrides decades of failure? You act like the Raiders had the formula all along.
Worse than getting rid of those players is the fans' doing the same thing and supporting the Pats' guys.
The AFC West and the draft:
K.C./ how K.C. uses its' vets and rookies is very good. they draft for size, speed and they use it. they will put fast guys on the field and try to shock their opponents with that speed. Sure a Bellichick, Steelers, Brady's teams can beat them with slower guys but they have outstanding teams but speed and size can help a team win. K.C. loves to get fast pass rushers and that's has helped them with the fast WRs' they also love to draft.
LAC/ has its' franchise QB, K. Mack and a Bosa on the D-line. They are trying to get their receiving unit in together.
Denver/ has a very good HC, and even without Elway had good players and now have the HC and money to bring in star free agents. They had a good draft and already have a good defense.
Las Vegas/ when Al was in charge they found a rookie maybe a few who could start. Now, they are rebuilding and got rid of some very good players. The new Raiders love to put their top picks out on the field instead of sitting them and letting them learn more. Now, this isn't all the time but they do it and it hasn't helped make them a winner. They refuse to spend on star FAs' and that's made the team weaker and put more pressure on rookie to play earlier also, maybe star FAs' could teach the rookies things to help them. They could have more but want to be cheap and put their rookies on the field early; with top NFL rookies that might help if their vets play well then they have a chance but a few stars might help to win and help show the rookies things to help them.
1980 super bowl year rookies/ M. Millen, R. Kinlaw- both are some of the best players in NFL history and helped Raiders get to the playoffs in '80.
1983 super bowl year/ D. Mosebar, an OT at USC, was moved to center. Media said it wouldn't work but Al saw that Mosebar had the speed to play the position with his size and speed he helped M. Allen have a great season.
2002 super bowl year/ P. Buchanon was one of the first round picks from the Gruden trade. Some fans feel he was a bust but in his rookie year he had six picks.
NO Al DAVIS EMPLOYEE IS WELCOMED BACK TO L.V.!
NONE of them!
If you worked for Al in the 60s'-'10s' you are not welcomed back!
Reggie fired them for a reason and it had nothing to do with football!
He didn't know any of them or what role they played in winning or losing but decided he and MD knew who should stay and go!
Reggie didn't know who was the problem or not and basically the media claimed AL was the only problem because none of the employees could bring ideas that he would pay any attention to.
So, when you try to defend the new regimes/ NFL maybe you should try to make some changes or look to see if your opinions/ claims make sense.
Al Anon this is Sandy. I love Al too but you don't know your Raider history. Don Moesbar was a great player was also indicative of a terrible mistake by Ron wolf and Al Davis as he was takien one pic before Dan Marino. He didn't play in 1983 he played guard for 2 years until Dave Dalby retired then he was moved to Center. Regards Sandy
Sorry? he did have a two year wait and then he became the biggest center in NFL history and he did help open holes for M. Allen, E. Dickerson and Bo Jackson.
No, they didn't blow it with D. Marino they were 'screwed' in the Elway trade. They went to the super bowl in '83 so with Plunkett who they got off the street, and with M. Haynes who they traded a lot of high picks for they already had an outstanding team oh, it would've been huge getting Marino but the Haynes trade may've changed their plans for a new QB.
Would that have been a huge move? Yes but was it that big a mistake no! they would later have both B. Jackson and M. Allen and as you say Al wasn't good at finding QBs' so maybe a good QB would've been enough to get them to the playoffs.
Dave Dalby! Wow!, I still remember him and he was another one of the great Raiders' players and another great Raiders' center.
Sandy here the Raiders had an amazing tradition of centers for the 40 years they only had a handful Jim OTto the best of the bunch and one of the greatest NFL players ever and the greatest Center ever in the NFL. Followed by Dave dalby followed by Don Mosebar and then Robins who was an amazing player All Pro until his mental health got the best of him regards Sandy
"NO Al DAVIS EMPLOYEE IS WELCOMED BACK TO L.V.!"
Really? That's one of your most absurd statements yet. So-called "Al employees" included a long list of ex-Raiders players. So they've all been banned from the facility?
"Reggie fired them for a reason and it had nothing to do with football."
No?
Dude you are not being rationale. As I said, somehow you are able to disregard facts (like a long string of losing seasons) and believe the Raiders had the formula all along.
Its' funny how other teams may have more success and be in the news more and have much better players but somehow the Raiders are always doing something mostly ridiculous and comic
The Raiders have always been the most important and controversial team in sports.
yea, I know the Patriots won seven super bowl but am I wrong but are they one of the most boring successful teams in all of sports- I mean they just don't keep you that interested outside of MA and East Coast. It took a ton of PR to make people like them. Don't get me wrong in the 80s' they were one of the more talented teams but the Kraft regime, they are just plain boring.
The whole sports world was waiting to see what Al might do in off season. They knew he was on the business, football and legal sides doing things.
When they were winning you saw some exciting football with good players and some big stars when they lost sometimes it was still exciting with a play that kept them in the game or some last minute disappointments. But its' hard to say Al's era ever had a boring team.
Exciting teams in any era:
Dallas/ glamour, 'America's team', 'Dooms Day' defense, AT&T stadium, Irving stadium, J. Johnson, T. Landry, super bowls vs. Steelers, 90s'
Oakland/ L.A.- moving four different times, wild card super bowl('80), deep strike, suing NFL, Al vs. NFL, M. Allen/ B. Jackson, games vs. Steelers and Broncos, speed, the 'bump and run'.
S.F./ games with Cowboys, pre-season games with Raiders, B. Walsh's era, T. Owens.
Philly/ coach B. Ryan, R. Cunningham and now the building of those D-lines, HC D. Vermile.
Seattle/ Jim Zorn and now all the defenses, especially the D-lines and the games with the 49ers.
Houston, Tennessee/ Run and Shoot, coach B. Phillips, E. Campbell, W. Moon, K. Stabler, '78-'80 playoff runs, V. Young, super bowl vs. Rams.
Washington/ J. Riggins, D. Williams, J. Theisman, D. Greene, 'fun bunch', 'The Hogs', HC J. Gibbs, the 'Over The Hill Gang'.
San Diego Chargers/ L. Alworth, J. Jefferson, K. Winslow, D. Fouts, L. Tomlinson, playoff game vs. Dolphins, AFL Championship, HC D. Coryell, S.D. Chicken.
The Raiders may be losers but in the '00s' Al still was doing great things helping the players fight for their salaries and benefits against the owners' new CBA plan.
He still was a genius and some teams just have a way of keeping things interesting and exciting. Winning is the no. #1 thing and almost everything but some teams can keep us excited, annoyed and interested while losing the Patriots were dynasty but were one of the dullest and boring NFL contenders, elites and dynasties I've seen.
The lure and mystery of Al Davis was cool when it worked, but Al jump the shark after (maybe because of) trading Jon Gruden, and the league quickly past the Raiders by during a dark period when they were steeped in dysfunction, with an aging Al Davis the de facto GM, HC and lead scout all while micromanaging the organization. That was an incredible hole for Mark Davis to climb the organization out of, and we are all still suffering as a result.
None of that is hyperbole. It's all true and you know it. You just can't bring yourself to that realization.
It's not a reflection of the Patriots or any other team, nor the league. It's all about the Raiders and their own problems during one of the most bizarre and underachieving periods for any team in professional sports.
It's hard to put a cherry on that! Not sure why you keep trying.
MD? He is an owner, that's it, owners don't make a lot of the decisions for football so he isn't the problem. Its' his front office you need to question. But this is what Raidernation/ media claimed was how teams should work- owners don't make football decisions.
* MD or the new regime guy(s) had to climb out of anything. Al already had solid units that were some of the best in the NFL when he passed and with J. Campbell or C. Palmer the Raiders had an outstanding roster in '12. All Reggie had to do was work with Al's front office. Either trade now or keep C. Palmer and elite NFL QB.
Reggie had a lot to work with but decided he didn't need it these are some of the things he could've used:
1. an top QB that they could trade for a high draft pick.
2. a wild cat QB they could make the starter until they draft their guy.
3. a strong defense
4. the best special teams in the league.
5. one of the best RB units in the NFL.
6. a pro-bowl FB
7. young players to coach up that can be used with the guys Reggie's guys bring in.
8. a good HC who can help, or be the OC.
9. decent receiving unit.
You had the talent and front office to keep trying to win and use with your guys. He could've kept most of that talent and then hire his front office.
You had an inexperienced HC, GM and owner! That was the '12 front office! they actually sold that to us with media/NFL hype. You don't think the NFL laughed about that?
* Now, what did 31 other team do to pass Al/ Raiders in the '03 off season?:
hired genius coaches/ OCs'?
used the Patriots'/ Bellichick way?
ask Gruden how to beat the Raiders?
ALL had one of the best drafts or assistant hires(DCs'/ OCs') in NFL history during the '03 off season?
stopped overpaying star players, FAs' and athletes and keeping problem players?
stopped signing, drafting big, fast athletes?
kept hiring ex-players/ employees from their past team owners eras to run the team?
Really!? 31 other teams got better than the Raiders? No, I think they were better than over half the other teams. And being AFC Champions that kind'a give me a good point.
I think there were good teams, elite teams and then a lot of mediocre teams back in '03 with the usual contenders except the Patriots.
But the '03 Raiders were a good team that should've been a super bowl favorite.
No, its' not normal for an elite team to go on a nine year losing streak.
What bad decisions did Al make?/
What bad decisions, mistakes and dysfunction did he make to cause a nine year slump?/
Your biggest problem is the same as you silly claim. That the team had no talent or it takes coaches and great decisions to win-
Well then What team(s) had the kind of front office/ rosters that Al had and wasn't winning? Just how fast and with what did these 31 other teams have to pass the Raiders in '03 off season?
Chargers- L. Tomlinson, D. Brees, P. Rivers and S. Merriman that the '03 Raiders wouldn't light them up. Until the slump the Chargers
K.C and Broncos- Denver wasn't that good in the early '00s' and the Raiders had dominated the AFC West
Jets, Texans, Lions- I like the Lions but I want to what they did do be better than the Raiders.
* Only teams in Raiders league in off season of '03-
Patriots, Steelers, NYG, Ravens, Cowboys and Eagles.
Al Davis brought so much to the NFL that I can't see why fans think a complete change is a great thing. He was a rebel and did a lot to make the NFL so stressed and angry that they tried to get him to join them or do things to get revenge and pressure him to stop kicking the leagues' ass. Some other owners wanted to be free to do their own thing from the league and rebelled, and I think that's why the NFL went after D. Snyder. The other owners the NFL may not like weren't as stressful or rebels as Al but the NFL wanted all owners to be all in with their plans.
No other team except Washington is making big changes. And as for that I feel Daniel Snyder shouldn't have to give up his team because of past wrongs. If the paid his fines and paid the law suits people filed against him/ Commanders then why should he have to give up his team?
Its' not because of the wrongs IMO....It seems to be more political reasons. If you think I'm being unfair think about all the people who have been fired or lost their jobs because of this attitude and movement against successful people who either make mistakes or say/ do things that are wrong. Its' funny that you now can lose a whole business when other corporation leaders/ owners won't get but bad press coverage and pay off fines/ law suits.
I think in Snyder's case it was about politics, him and Al Davis the ex-owner/ GM of the Raiders had a habit of doing their own things which made the rule making, new stadium wanting and money motivated NFL upset with both of them and a few other owners.
He was his own owner and they don't want that kind so, they went after him when they got the chance. A chance his employees and maybe himself helped give them.
The NFL and some of their owners feel everybody needs to be all in on the NFL's plans and if they don't then maybe they should be pressured and if that doesn't work maybe they might want to sell some or all to somebody who will listen.
I know Mr. Snyder was wrong for what he may have done and his employees. Its' not that action shouldn't have been be taken for what they did but to pressure an owner to sell his business may not always be the answer. If he did like maybe a Donald Sterling the ex-Clippers' owner, then maybe he should take a long trip from his team like not showing up at games if not sell the team, but Mr. Sterling said racist things almost publicly and was saying and acting in rude ways and maybe it was a good idea to sell after the things he did and said but the NBA could have just banned him from his teams' games and his wife did take over the team.
So, the NFL wanted Mr. Snyder to sell and he did or was involved in things that were wrong. Its' not letting owners get away with doing something wrong but its' giving them time to make up for it instead of losing their business. It might stop or help end a lot of wrong things with a business by pressuring an owner to sell did but that doesn't make it right.
We are good, not great at WR/ the Pats' guys want something they understand but their offense isn't that scary to K.C. and Denver mainly because Bellichick and Brady aren't there.
We are ? at TE/ the Pats' guys who have seen some of the best TE units in the NFL, decided to get rid of one of the best.
We are very good but could've been better at RB.
We are ? on the D-line/ we have had K. Mack, B. Irvin, D. Autry, D. Tollefson and M. Crosby and we just can't get to the top 10-20 of the NFL pass rushes. one of the reasons is they haven't found the scheme or inside pass rush to do it.
We are ? on the O-line/ I guess they want Jacobs to carry the offense. Its' not that I'm putting Jimmy G. down its' just that in the AFC West you have some of the best pass rushes and they want Jimmy G. to stay in the pocket with a ? at O-line.
We are very good on special teams/ the kicking game is great. we haven't found that return game star(s) yet so we'll have to see if they found some returners.
we are in bad shape at linebacker/ they didn't want D. Perriman and they also didn't try to find the top ones early in the draft.
we are in bad shape in the secondary/ the Patriots drafted Oregon U. CB C. Gonzales. the Raiders went for a big so called edge rusher who probably is a true DE. He is about C. Ferrell's size but it was a good pick. but the Raiders needed an elite CB. once again,
They need to find a good vet CB in free agency or it might be tough this season.
The Pats' guys need to get some older front office people to advise them.
And I told you that the new Raiders don't invite Al's ex-Raiders back to team unless its' to visit.
Al and the Patriots/ traded high picks for CB M. Haynes- he helped them get to super bowl same year and made HOF. traded WR R. Moss for almost nothing in return- Moss helped NE get to the super bowl same year. traded high picks for DL R. Seymore- he was a pro bowler with Raiders and mad HOF.
new regimes and the Patriots/ Reggie traded WR C. Patterson to Patriots for almost nothing in return. Gruden traded draft picks to Pitts for WR A. Brown and later released him and he signed with NE. after Raiders released him, Patriots signed WR N. Agholor. Pats' guys signed Ariz. FA DE C. Jones and he helped beat the Patriots in '22. after Gruden signed FA OT T. Brown from NE- the Raiders later traded him back to NE for almost nothing.
Looks like we haven't done much over the past 21 years but Al's era had what it needed to win but didn't. Reggie was rebuilding, ruining the team and making a huge hole for somebody else to climb out of. Gruden was hired to keep us happy but couldn't do his own thing and the Pats' guys are trying to keep us happy but are making the Raiders look very average with all kinds of moves to be like the Patriots; And the NFL is also working with the Raiders to make them marketable but also have some say in the team.
The Raiders might have what it takes to win, but the facts tell us they mostly need better coaching. McDaniels took a 10-7 team and turned it into a 6-11 team. That's no small feat. Coaches deserve a lot of the blame for 2022. Unfortunately, as bad as the defense was, Carr took most of the blame, now we have Jimmy G. We'll see where that goes.
Zeigler had among league's highest available cap space and league-most number of draft picks, including four picks in the top 110.
These are the facts.
IMO, it's about the Raiders winning a single playoff game for the first time in 20 years and building off that. Raiders need to ascend back into relevance in order to recover their brand. Until then, they remain among the worst teams in the league history, riding a two-decade playoff (win) drought.
It's a harsh reality but I'm done pretending it's something that it's clearly not. Everybody who had a say in Raiders football over the past 20 years carries some responsibility for this mess. No exceptions! Clearly, some more than others.
Hopefully, we're not adding Zeigler and McDaniels to that list anytime soon.
Newsflash: Jimmy G apparently underwent foot survey in March, after signing with the Raiders. So this guy, who's already injury-prone, is injured before he takes a single snap for the Raiders. I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe he's ever played a full season due to injuries.
Carr, who Raiders brass were quick to jettison, has only missed two games in his career. He doesn't have the winning pedigree of Garoppolo, but he's also never had a defense.
There's a lot to be concerned about.
NY Raider and other Anon,
How do they have what it takes to win?
Is it because the Pats guys came from a dynasty?
Reggie came from a super bowl team/ winner(in the 00s').
Coach Allen came from a model franchise and Gruden came from one of the best defensive teams in the NFL.
And what happened!? they still lost and got worse!
No, the Raiders are far from the worst team in NFL history. What they are is a misused business in bad shape that is being used to make the owners/ NFL wealthy with no connection to Al's era.
It would take a few more losing seasons for them to come close to some of the other teams in the league. Mainly because of the years of winning. And add that Al did so much for the league on the business and legal sides that he still would be a top NFL exec despite the losing streak.
No, they(Al's era) lost but they were already more than loaded up to win for years but suddenly stopped winning.
No, Gruden/ Mayock didn't have all the say in how the team worked that was the NFL.
As for the
They HAD a outstanding roster, they HAD an outstanding front office, they HAD a top GM/ owner.
They HAD one of the best places to play football(Oakland).
They HAD a culture and a
* What I don't understand is how can you support the same routine that has been happening for 10 years?:
The media/ NFL hypes a new regime.
They come from a winning program
They make big promises
THEN!?:
They bring in guys from their old team mostly average guys not their stars.
They ruin the units that are very good on the Raiders.
They keep reaching for or making safe draft picks.
They refuse to hire older front office people to advise them.
They get rid of younger possibly good players and keep mediocre vets.
They let their good and star free agents walk instead of paying them.
They use the same system, this is the SAME system that Reggie bought, its' the NFL/ 'Patriot way' and it has been a failure that you and other Anon refuse to admit.
* No, the Raiders have been gone since about '14 when Reggie got rid of almost every Al player on the roster. the real Raiders' losing streak stopped at nine years not 21.
This team is the one you claim was going to be a winner. Don't try to add Al's years to it. This is the new Raiders, a new direction, culture(?) and goals with a modern front office. No dysfunction, no big spending and no "my way" system with quick decisions on who to draft and free agency.
NFL/ media said you can win with the modern, NFL/ 'Patriot ways'. High character guys, well managed salary cap and an good roster with maybe, a few star players who want to play football, not just get paid.
The media/ NFL said this system was the best and a good GM and front office could rebuild the Raiders into a winner and help them get back to their past glory.
They put a lot on the new regimes and hyped them. They backed their system and fans supported it. Some didn't and questioned/ criticized the firings of some of Al's employees but many supported it even when the regimes got fired and media/ NFL hyped a new one a lot of fans kept loyal.
No, its not bad decisions by four different regimes its the NFL trying to keep the Raiders under control and running. They still don't like us and that's why the team can't build to win. They won't be happy with the Raiders until they can find a way to make money and change the culture.
So Adams told the world that he is fine with the team, like I said, #clickbait.
Why keep bringing up Carr? He wasn't a fit with McDaniels, is that too hard to understand? Jimmy isn't the long term answer, but he is a good fit with McDaniels until the QB of the future is signed.
There is always a lot to be concerned about, you new here?
"How do they have what it takes to win"
Wait! What?
You think the Raiders were elite when they were 4-12. Their decline began when Al traded Jon Gruden.
Raiders may have "HAD" those things you mention, but not since the 80's or 90's. And all the things they did wrong afterwards, as you point out, are part of the dysfunction and poor decision-making that have haunted this team since well before Al died.
It's all in the books. You can't rewrite it.
To NY Raider,
So, the Raiders haven't been relevant since the 90s'?
Why are you so behind the Pats' guys?
Why do you keep searching the NFL for some kind of great regime that will take us back to glory?
Are you o.k. with the NFL/ owners advising the team?
What kind of a culture do we have?
who are the L.V. Raiders?
A team that is still trying to win after 10 years.
* 1963- the Raiders' owners made the best move in NFL history by hiring LACs' assistant Al Davis and he turn the team into a very good team.
2012- MD(?) allegedly hired GB front office man Reggie McKenzie and he turned the Raiders into a worse mess than Al was accused of.
Al was in the AFL, Reggie was in the NFL, both got hired to a new team- Al as a HC and Reggie as a GM.
The Raiders were a bad team before Al came
The Raiders were 8-8 and in a nine year losing streak when Reggie came.
Al turned the team around in one year and built a contender.
Reggie was put in a bad situation were the NFL/owners got inside the team and wanted a rebuild and overhaul of Al's era.
The Raiders became a top NFL team after the merger('70)
The Raiders got worse with Reggie running the front office.
Usually when Al lost a SB or playoff game he would reload and try to get back in the playoffs the next year.
When Reggie lost a playoff game they didn't get bold and make more moves they fell from having a chance to being cheap and needing a lot of help then went back to mediocrity.
Al's Raiders had a culture, a system, an attitude a bond with its' fan base.
Reggie got rid of any culture and identity and helped make the team a business, instead of a family-football and rebel's team without a lot of fun and excitement. But maybe a few star players and the draft would bring some excitement but mostly they were mediocre/ lagged when it came to making moves.
The Raiders made mistakes and got through them like ALL pro sports teams even though Raidernation/ media believes Al somehow caused a nine year slump.
Reggie made mistakes and even though the media/ fans supported their excuses the mistakes made the new team worse.
Derek Carr has a familiar face with him in New Orleans as his QB Coach .... Jon Gruden
Behind the Pat's guys? Huh? You haven't been reading my posts. You are imagining something that isn't true. I'm not searching the NFL for anything. You make stuff up as you go, and you often associate your fiction with me. Why?
It's so simple. It's about results.
Apparently, Jimmy G has a lingering foot injury which could be an issue. Florio said the Raiders restructured his contract with no signing bonus and made his health a continency in his contract... meaning he doesn't get paid if he can't play.
That could open the door for Tom Brady to be the Raiders QB in 2023. Brady will be a minority owner of the Raiders and it's unlikely he would play for any other team.
Jon Gruden is reported to be working in limited role with Derek Carr and NO Saints. IMO, the Saints are in perfect position to make fools out of the Raiders even without Gruden adding insult to injury.
If the Raiders are now the Patriots West, the Saints are now the Raiders South.
To Raider Nate and NY Raider,
And you are so happy they both are gone because they are average QB and terrible washed up ex-HC just as Al was a dysfunctional, controlling and terrible GM/ owner so its' a great thing they're gone- right?
What you want are two guys who came from a dynasty that are mediocre and not very good at drafting players. They also traded for a CB that was decent(R. Yon Sin) then let him walk in free agency. They also traded high draft picks for a pro bowl WR and you were cool with that. Now, they may be trying to trade him! They got rid of his QB who we thought was gonna stay in L.V.
I know when Al made two big trades Raidernation wasn't too happy about it and attacked his moves(R. Seymore and J. Gruden trades).
But its' o.k. for the new regimes to make big trades that might ruin the team so the player has a harder time working with and helping the team. The trades for players have lost draft picks and have been bad and embarrassing.
Now, you want to criticize me for trying to hype/ promote Al's history, saying I'm stuck in past and hallucinating about the facts-, but fans wait ten years with two playoff games, for the hype and promises made by Reggie to start to have results.
When these regimes bring their ideas and the media hypes them, fans support them. When they make changes that ruin good areas, some fans criticize them but many keep supporting them. When they lose, fans complain, some attack them but when they make more promises and excuses many fans still support them.
This is what we want? This is what we've supporting? This is who Raidernation is now
fans of a new team.
They have big plans but if so why aren't they doing more to help us win? We still want to support them even though they don't really do all they can for us to win?
They are the NFL and their partners. They helped the Raiders IMO and I know they have say in how they work. We were promised a winner from NFL/ media and we supported it a moved on from Al. But at least he tried hard to win- we were so tired of losing we listened to the NFL/ media hype and supported them but we didn't think if they were as passionate as Al.
Well the new regime is supposed to be an NFL way team with modern things and good NFL people but they refuse to spend big on star FAs' and draft elite players.
They seem to want to stick with the NFL/ Patriot way but its' not working well and they don't use other systems to try to win.
I think the NFL/ owners have say and they made big promises and we listened to them but the team just isn't winning but shows it isn't doing everything to try to win. So they may have plans that they don't worry about helping us win now.
We still support them but we got a team not trying that hard to win and a league that may have some other plans and don't really try to help us win until the team is the way the want it.
Al anon, why is it that you seem to start off every post directed at me with a false statement about what I said or how I feel about a person or topic? Is that your intention? Is strawman your only way of communicating?
Al Anon said, "And you are so happy they both are gone because they are average QB and terrible washed up ex-HC just as Al was a dysfunctional, controlling and terrible GM/ owner so its' a great thing they're gone- right?"
I'm not happy DC is gone. DC was the guy who could have taken the Raiders to a Super Bowl had Mark held Gruden accountable to build a defense. I thought DC was a tremendous QB and leader for the team, and the way he was treated last season was deplorable. I am not happy he is with the Saints, and I am not happy that he is in a situation where he can win a Super Bowl in Vegas next season, on a team that the Raiders should be better than. It pisses me off, much like Marcus Allen being traded to the Chiefs.
As far as Gruden, even when Mark hired him the 2nd time, I was not a fan of the hiring, and voiced my opinion as such. My opinion of Gruden is the same as McDaniels, and no I am not a McDaniels guy either. Gruden is much like McDaniels to me, he is not that great of a coach because he goes by his system, and cannot build a system to the strengths of his roster.
As much as Bisaccia did as interim HC for the Raiders, he should have been given a season to prove his worth as HC, but the Raiders were in such disarray that Mark needed help at the helm of the organization as a whole. Enter Sandra Morgan Douglass as the first step in the right direction as organizational management.
I truly believe Mark wanted Dave Zeigler as GM, but Dave wasn't going to come in a situation and not choose his coach, which is why Bisaccia didn't get the job. However, I thought Zeigler is the best move that Mark could have made, other than keeping Mayock. I'd love to have seen Mayock without Gruden in a draft, he just has a knack for talent. But I understand why he is no longer with the Raiders too.
I'm not on board with the direction the Raiders have gone this last offseason. I don't think we win more than 6 games with the current roster, and I truly think the next 2 players to leave will be Hunter Renfrow (via trade) and Josh Jacobs (via holdout). The Jacobs situation falls on Zeigler, and that is his only unfavorable mark. The Derek Carr situation fell solely on McDaniels. We will see what happens.
With all that said, I loved Al Davis, he is a huge reason why I'm a Raiders fan. Had the privilege of meeting him several times as a kid/teenager in Los Angeles. I feel we need more owners like him, and less like Arthur Blank, Dan Snyder, and Stephen Ross. At the same time, Al also shares in criticism of the Raiders as much as he had success with them as owner. It's the nature of the position. To be honest, I feel from 2005-2011 was his worst years as owner/General Managing Partner. I believe it was in this time that he lost "control" of the organizational front of the Raiders, and needed help. This is also the time, where it is documented, that his health started failing in some way. He kept his personal life private, and nobody outside the organization knew (and still doesn't know) how or what happened with his health. A lot of reporters were saying he had dementia; which I always thought was bogus because he was always sharp with his thoughts and words. But there was a major health issue he was going through.
My disappointment with the Raiders right now is that they are nothing like the way they were in the 70's, 80's, and 90's when they were always right there in the playoffs and on the cusp of winning the division every year. Nor do I see this happening anytime soon.
As far as my feelings on Al and the Raiders. We saw a glimpse of that return to greatness with Gruden's first go round as coach. I believe a lot of Gruden's success came from Al tweaking his game plans, and giving him people to help him understand defense. Gruden hated it, and felt Al was interfering and was public about it.
Gruden wasn't traded because Al's ego; Gruden was traded because he made it public that he wasn't going to re-sign as HC of the Raiders. He had one more season left on his contract, and said that was going to be it. Gruden later claimed it was a ploy to try and get an upper hand in negotiation; but I never believed it. I truly think he felt he was smarter than Al. What he failed to realize was Al was a fair guy when it came to loyalty, and Gruden was not loyal to Al Davis. That is why Gruden was traded.
The same can be said of Bill Callahan. Callahan hated Al Davis too, and Jerry Rice and Tim Brown both are outspoken to the fact that Callahan threw the Super Bowl by changing the game plan to fit the Bucs defensive scheme. They have all but said that Callahan got private monies for throwing the game. That hurt Al and the Raiders for a long time. Hue Jackson had brought some of that swagger back, but was held in check by Al Davis. When Al passed, Hue was left unchecked; and that hurt the Raiders.
Financially, some of the roster decisions and contracts Al gave hurt the team. He had some raw talent (Kelly, Phillip Buchanon, Darius Heyward-Bey, etc) and paid them superstar money because of their loyalty and potential. He didn't want them to reach their potential without being paid; the problem was there was no one to really coach them into reaching their superstar potential. We saw this the most when Heyward-Bey went to the Steelers. This is what caused McKenzie to rebuild and restructure. What we didn't know, was the turmoil in the front office, and how Marc Badain was paying triple the rent money and taxes, and keeping the Raiders from having the cash to build a team, and the cash from staying in Oakland. This is what plagued the Raiders from 2012 to current. This is the real battle that the Raiders must overcome. To be honest, I think they do with Sandra Morgan Douglass and Dave Zeigler.
Whatever differences Carr and McDaniels had last year should have swung to Carr's favor. IMO, McDaniels wasn't a good enough coach to implement a system for Carr to succeed, as we all know and have seen Carr is capable of.
After 20 years of losing, I don't understand why anyone would be making excuses. Many other teams have excelled out of the gate with new leadership. The Raiders seem to always take two steps back after every transition... and somehow, that's okay.
IMO, it's not okay... not for professionals making millions.
In what other profession (on what other team) does every leadership transition begin with immediate failure and hope to remedy sometime in the future? That's the Raiders MO. Only the "remedy" always escapes the process.
To Raider Nate,
DHB was almost a bust Al wanted to win and all a good coach has to do is coach if the guy isn't any good then, o.k. but DHB didn't ruin the Raiders good or bad. P. Buchanon, if he was a bust at least had six picks in the Raiders super bowl run and I really don't think he was that bad of a player.
Reggie was told to get rid of Al's regime it wasn't a rebuild they had a foundation and young players and he refused to even give them a chance. It was pay back by the NFL not an overhaul.
If Badain was paying triple the rent it was because the AC Board told him that's what the rent was. And that was probably after the Raiders had decided to move to L.V.
The NFL wanted a team in L.V. and without Al to stand up to them they TOLD MD that's the way things are going to be.
Al was still proving he was a good NFL GM and a genius by helping the players against the NFL/ owners' new CBA. And the players supported him.
Now Nate, if the media/ fan's claims that nobody wanted to play for Al were true why would they listen to him with the CBA? If they didn't think he could make good decisions or was senile why would they listen to him and not go on strike?
Yea right!, those claims don't look so strong now.
The fact is that the Raiders were an elite team in '03 when the slump happened and there is NO evidence that a bad draft, trade or really bad decisions caused them to lose then and for eight more years that's almost impossible especially for a team with the kind of front office Al had.
The NFL was mediocre and S.F., Dall, Indy, Pitts and Raiders were different because the knew how to win and had good front offices the NFL/ owners wanted a PARITY to make money were mediocre teams could seem almost as good as very good/ elite teams.
They also wanted to save money with a new CBA and when some owners stood up against both of these ideas they were pressured to stop it- guess who didn't?
Hue nor Cable had enough time to prove if they were good coaches but Jackson showed he was a top OC. Hue did go a little wild for a minute but he was trying to honor Al by making the playoffs. When QB J. Campbell got injured he traded for a pro bowl QB.
Al saw some of himself in Hue but we don't know if the left him in charge, Hue was the guy he trusted to be HC and MAYBE make some team decisions.
Now, they lost to the Broncos who weren't a very good team- 'Any given Sunday'? The point is the Raiders never should've been playing for a wild card but should've outright won the division title in '11.
I thought the guys would play harder if they got paid more. Was the NFL/ owners right? You cap the salaries and make these guys play harder for the money?
So Al was wrong then, the NFL way is the best. You just get basically average guys and pay them decent and make them play harder if they want to get more money- they are passionate and don't worry about salary. But when you play a game were you might have big health problems wouldn't it be smart to make sure you got money to live good and pay your medical bills? Was that why the NFLPA and Al stood up for the players?
Raider Nate, I think we really need to look at the NFL and the Raiders' actions.
It gets more and more difficult to read this stuff. It's all conjecture. I don't believe Reggie was "told" to do anything. He was hired by Mark Davis to take over, which he did. Reggie also inherited a salary cap mess.
I thought this was universally understood by all Raiders fans at the time.
Who do you think "told" him to get rid of Al's guys?
There's a lot of revisionist history going on at this blog.
Reggie McKenzie followed a long line of Raiders nepotism, which had stopped working long before.
Reggie was TOLD to ERASE anything connected to Al Davis
Now, saying that the Raiders got bad and Al was behind some of it and ruined this team through bad decisions and dysfunction is one thing but to claim he became the worst GM and made the Raiders the worst team in the NFL over that nine year period is plain ridiculous.
You don't remember some of the bad teams back then and how many of them even won a playoff game?
The Raiders aren't the worst in NFL history over that nine year period with all the loses because there are team that have NEVER even won a playoff game in decades. They were eight years removed from being an elite team.
Al or anyone on that team made any decision that caused a nine year losing streak.
Reggie got rid of ANYTHING connected to Al. And you seriously believe that wasn't the NFL!? This isn't some feud that after Al and NFL were stuck in it was billionaires from around the world huge corporations that the NFL invited in to make it wealthier and when they met Al they were shocked over the law suits and helping the NFLPA but they were powerful and organized and had POWER to pressure him to stop! He didn't and all kinds of strange things have been happening to him sense.
They have the power to:
spy on an NFL team
powerful friends in government
the NFL backing them
friends on Wall Street in banks, and sponsors which is why Al couldn't get many really big sponsor's money
One of the winningest teams in pro sports and just lost a super bowl goes on a nine year losing streak.
Somebody tells top HCs'/ assistants NOT to work for Al(?) even after they were hired(?).
Even the worst of NFL teams easily beat a team loaded with talent.
Very little, if any positive press coverage for the Raiders over nine year slump. Now we know many of their(media's) claims was to make the team look bad. But they were lies because I've proven most of them lies(guys listened to Al about new CBA so they wouldn't think he was dependable to play for?)
Raiders as usually got worst scheduling
You want to believe the NFL hated him but couldn't or wouldn't DO THINGS to tamper with them is fine but I think you want to find a reason and those points don't look so good against the facts.
And the fact are the Raiders were an elite team in '03 and suddenly, couldn't beat the worst teams in the NFL!
And the NFL is full of billionaires who aren't playing with an old man who stood up to them over money and power. Can they do things? Yes! would they I can't answer that but I believe think they did!
They have the power and the motive isn't just money and power the league has wanted Al out for years and the billionaires had the connections to pressure Al to stop didn't say they actually succeeded in forcing him out of the NFL but they did pressure him to stop!
If you want to believe an NFL team can lose for nine years because one of the best GMs' in pro sports history suddenly got senile and dysfunctional fine but to watch the NFL do all kinds of strange and greedy things and not think they could finally intimidate and pressure Al is too status quo to take.
To know the NFL showed its' power with the Elway trade and to think it can't do worse now is strange. The Raiders were something they hated and the billionaires wanted Al to stop doing things to mess with their money and get the players to stand up to them.
2 Stefen Wisniewski C Penn State
3a. DeMarcus Van Dyke CB Miami
3b. Joseph Barksdale T LSU
4a. Chimdi Chekwa CB Ohio State
4b. Taiwan Jones RB Eastern Washington
5 Denarius Moore WR Tennessee
6 Richard Gordon TE Miami
7 David Ausberry WR USC
2010
Round Player Pos. College
1 Rolando McClain LB Alabama
2 Lamarr Houston DT Texas
3 Jared Veldheer T Hillsdale
4a. Bruce Campbell T Maryland
4b. Jacoby Ford WR Clemson
5 Walter McFadden CB Auburn
6 Travis Goethel LB Arizona State
7a. Jeremy Ware CB Michigan State
7b. Stevie Brown S Michigan
2009
Round Player Pos. College
1 Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Maryland
2 Mike Mitchell S Ohio University
3 Matt Shaughnessy DE Wisconsin
4a. Louis Murphy WR Florida
4b. Slade Norris LB Oregon State
6a. Stryker Sulak DE Missouri
6b. Brandon Myers TE Iowa
2008
Round Player Pos. College
1 Darren McFadden RB Arkansas
4a. Tyvon Branch DB Connecticut
4b. Arman Shields WR Richmond
6 Trevor Scott DE Buffalo
7 Chaz Schilens WR San Diego State
2007
Round Player Pos. College
1 JaMarcus Russell QB LSU
2 Zach Miller TE Arizona State
3a. Quentin Moses DE Georgia
3b. Mario Henderson OL Florida State
3c. Johnnie Lee Higgins WR UTEP
4a. Michael Bush RB Louisville
4b. John Bowie CB Cincinnati
5a. Jay Richardson DE Ohio State
5b. Eric Frampton S Washington State
6 Oren O'Neal FB Arkansas State
7 Jonathan Holland WR Louisiana Tech
2006
Round Player Pos. College
1 Michael Huff S Texas
2 Thomas Howard LB Texas-El Paso
3 Paul McQuistan OL Weber State
4 Darnell Bing S USC
6 Kevin Boothe OL Cornell
7a. Chris Morris C Michigan State
7b. Kevin McMahan WR Maine
2005
Table inside Article
Round Player Pos. College
1 Fabian Washington CB Nebraska
2 Stanford Routt CB Houston
3a. Andrew Walter QB Arizona State
3b. Kirk Morrison LB San Diego State
6a. Anttaj Hawthorne DT Wisconsin
6b. Ryan Riddle LB California
6c. Pete McMahon OT Iowa
2004
Round Player Pos. College
1 Robert Gallery OT Iowa
2 Jake Grove C Virginia Tech
3 Stuart Schweigert S Purdue
4 Carlos Francis WR Texas Tech
5 Johnnie Morant WR Syracuse
6a. Shawn Johnson DE Delaware
6b. Cody Spencer LB North Texas
7a. Courtney Anderson TE San Jose State
2003
Round Player Pos. College
1a. Nnamdi Asomugha CB California
1b. Tyler Brayton DE Colorado
2 Teyo Johnson TE Stanford
3a. Sam Williams DE Fresno State
3b. Justin Fargas RB USC
4 Shurron Pierson LB South Florida
5 Doug Gabriel WR Central Florida
6 Dustin Rykert T BYU
7a. Sideeq Shabazz S New Mexico State
7b. Ryan Hoag WR Gustavus Adolphus
2002
Round Player Pos. College
1a. Phillip Buchanon CB Miami, Fla.
1b. Napoleon Harris LB Northwestern
2a. Langston Walker OL California
2b. Doug Jolley TE BYU
5 Kenyon Coleman DE UCLA
6a. Keyon Nash DB Albany State (Ga.)
6b. Larry Ned RB San Diego State
7 Ronald Curry QB North Carolina
2001
Table inside Article
Round Player Pos. College
1 Derrick Gibson S Florida State
2 Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington
3 DeLawrence Grant DE Oregon State
5 Raymond Perryman S Northern Arizona
6 Chris Cooper DE Nebraska-Omaha
7a. Derek Combs RB Ohio State
7b. Ken-Yon Rambo WR Ohio State
2000
One just has to look at these drafts posted, then add in the poor coaching and dysfunction that scared away any interest from the top coaches and FA's, guess what ya got? Losing and more losing, you just have to look at those names drafted and not one became an elite player, not one. Then FA's would avoid Oakland unless they wanted a retirement package (Sapp), etc. Poor drafting/poor FA's, with poor coaching and an Owner who wanted to control everything and this is the result still today. Al never left any plan to try and turn it around, he just gave it to Mark, how is that working out?
Other Anon,
Al's last drafts- Part I,
So, you want to put down on Al. I will be fair and try to find out if he was terrible or if you are just looking for another excuse to not look at other reasons why the team suddenly lost!:
QB: Russell- bust, but put in bad situation but not fault of GM/ owner but strange issues with assistants and outsiders tampering with team. If he'd played for 31 other team he'd had a decent career. Tui- not very good as a starter might've been good wild cat. A. Walter- same as Russell, I think this was a very good QB, TP2- maybe not a starter but could've helped this team. but the new regime didn't want him.
RB-/ DMAC-top NFL RB had everything just never able to get it together did well for Dallas. M. Bush- one of the best RBs' in NFL, new regime didn't want him, played for Chicago. J. Fargas- high character, tough and fast, the kind of RB the media/ NFL claims they like.
receivers/ R. Curry- was a QB, was a good player, played for Lions. L. Murphy- dependable, played for 49ers. C. Schillens- pro-bowl level had injuries, played for NYJ. D. Moore-outstanding, dependable, played for Bills. D. Jolley- started in super bowl. B. Meyers- outstanding special teamer. C. Anderson- issues ended career, looked like a star. Z. Miller- very good player, played for Seahawks.
OL/ Walker- starter but criticized by media/ fans. M. Henderson- decent LT. J. Veldheer- pro-bowl LT but new regime didn't want him. S. Wisnewski- started for two other teams and has two super bowl rings.
J. Barksdale-a good RT played for Chargers.
J. Grove-decent C but criticized by fans/ media. B. Campbell- not quite a bust but didn't do much in career. R. Gallery- a bust was a decent LT, played for Seahawks and Patriots. P. McQuistern was a decent T, looked like a star for a minute had a twin in the NFL.
Kickers/ C-Bass- one of the best kickers in NFL history.
Nnamdi/ an elite CB and pro-bowl player.
C-Bass/ one of the best kickers in NFL history.
J. Veldheer/ a pro-bowl OT and was one of the best for years.
L. Houston/ a top NFL DL for the Bears and could've been a pro-bowl DE or DT for Raiders but Reggie didn't want him.
S. Lechler/ pro-bowl punter and the best in the NFL. One of the best punters in NFL history.
* Oh, and about your little Al's drafts were bad. These guys may or may not be elite but they would be the top players over the 10 years these new regimes have been in control of the Raiders:
secondary, best new regime DBs?:
C-Wood, C. Heyward Jr., Heath, R. Nelson, R. Yon Sin.
best secondary from draft: J. Abram, T. J. Carrie, K. Joseph.
Best players at different positions since '12:
CB- S. Routt/ would be their best CB. They haven't had an elite CB ever and
FS- S. Brown/ didn't stay with Raiders long but had 8 picks for NYGs'.
SS- T. Branch/ big mistake by Reggie letting him go. a pro bowl level SS and a top cover DB.
DL- K. Mack- one but only because D. Burgess isn't a run stuffing DE. As for DT D. Autry is the best because the Raiders only drafted one DT(A. Hawthorne).
Al had so many outstanding pass rushers only K. Mack can stand up against them.
new regimes- K. Mack, M. Crosby, D. Autry, S. Harris, A. Key and M. Hurst.
Al(draft only)- L. Houston, T. Scott, K. Coleman, D. Grant, M. Shaughnessy, J. Richardson and Q. Moses.
All of Al's guys had at least three sacks in a season.
T. Kelly, D. Tollefson and D. Bryant were UDFAs' and were some of the best players on Al's Raiders(Tollefson played for Reggie).
RB- M. Bush- outstanding would've been a first round pick but had injury. Had big games for Raiders.
new regime/ L. Murray, J. Richard, J. Jacobs.
Al's RBs(draft only)/ DMAC, J. Fargas, M. Bush.
QB- D. Carr, the best QB since '12. Not the best QB but was a good leader and could move an offense, had trouble against top defenses but could move a team with talent around him.
Al's QBs'(draft only)- J. Russell, Tui, A. Walter.
Russell was a bust but wasn't the worst- he isn't the worst in AFC West history much less, NFL history. Walter was a very good QB but he was in a bad situation and there were issues that wasn't his fault, Tui was fun but it just didn't work out.
"Reggie was TOLD to ERASE anything connected to Al Davis"
Told by whom?
Reggie was the boss. Please tell me who told Reggie to "erase anything connected to Al Davis?
Your posts are nonsensical.
It's not so nefarious as you want us to believe. It's much simpler. The Raiders sucked! Reggie brought in his own people to try and right the ship. He also inherited salary cap hell.
Aside from poor decisions, part of the problem with the Raiders drafts is turnover at coaching. Their dysfunction is an endless cycle of their own doing. Each new regime thought enough of the past regimes draft picks to separate themselves from nearly every one.
Raiders' draft picks:
D. Carr
M. Bush
?
A. Cooper
L. Murphy
D. Jolley
J. Veldheer
G. Jackson
T. Bergstrom
S. Wisnewski
K. Miller
C. Bass
KR J. Ford
K. Mack
J. Richardson
S. McGee
M. Crosby
T. Howard
R. McClain
K. Morrison
Nnamdi
S. Routt
M. Huff/ K. Joseph(tie)
T. Branch
S. Lechler
PR J.L. Higgins
M. Huff was a top choice but I think he didn't do as much as NFL thought he could and Joseph started getting better before he left Raiders so I give them a tie at FS.
Al had outstanding outstanding young LBs' and they all start on this team.
K. Mack and M. Crosby would be starters only because T. Scott got hurt and then left he had eight sacks as a rookie. DL J. Richardson was a good pass rusher and batted down a lot of passes. Al had a lot of good pass rushers but some were UDFAs' or played for other teams so its' hard to believe the new regimes have three guys on the D-line.
The secondary is filled with Al's guys as starters. The team used to be one of the top builders of good secondaries. The new regimes had some good players but not like Al's units.
D. Carr is the best QB drafted but TP2 was exciting and could've helped this team as a back up QB.
Special teams had good players and Al's was the best of all four regimes.
* The Raiders have had good players, all four regimes did. But you want to believe Al had no elite players. He had very good rosters over that nine year slump and had the best players of the four and had a very good group of players on one team.
There are a lot of guys you could put here and it's not making Al a better GM/ owner I think he was and not putting regimes down even though the NFL worked with them its' just showing you one team with the best of the four regime's guys and this was who would start on this team and Al's had a lot of guys on this team.
"K. Mack and M. Crosby would be starters only because T. Scott got hurt"
Huh?
Mack was a top-5 pick. He was a starter the minute he was drafted. Crosby broke his hand and went back into a preseason game. There's no way he wasn't going to be a starter. Cream always rises to the top.
Here's what someone in media thinks of your boy, Jerry Tillery.
"Third-round pick Byron Young owns the most potential on the interior of the defensive line. The former Alabama standout is a better player than Jerry Tillery and Bilal Nichols, and it shouldn’t take many reps in training camp to prove it."
If the Raiders can't do better than Jerry Tillery, they are in deep deep trouble.
You mean you don't know!?
You mean you really don't know!?
You don't have any idea who would do that to Al/ Raiders?
Lets ask some big questions?:
Who blocked the Elway trade('83)?
Who kept R. Moss from being traded to 31 other teams except the Patriots?
Who didn't NFL try to help them stay in Oakland?
Who allegedly was upset with Al about fighting against the new CBA?
Who gave the worst team in the NFL a super bowl winner's schedule?
Who allegedly has had the refs' be unfair and very tough on the Raiders the past 40+ years and during the nine year slump?
Who didn't overrule the refs when the Raiders played the Patriots in a playoff game where a strange rule cost the them a win?
Why isn't there any Al Davis trophies, rules or awards even though he was the main person credited with changing the NFL/ pro sports to a modern/ more equal place?
You mean you don't know who has the power to make things hard for somebody
Why was it so hard if not impossible for Al to win his lawsuits when he hardly ever lost any of them? could it people with friends in legal offices in this country?
Who has friends in Wall Street and what power does wall street have when it comes to money and corporations? could the NFL have helped ask corporations to tell other corporations not to do business with Al? Could they also use their power to have illegal spying on a team getting inside info on the team?
Who has partners/ friends who are the big sponsors that pay for naming rights and endorse athletes? could they've asked them not to work with the Raiders?
Who hated the NFLPA so much it was gone by '08? Al and NFLPA boss G. Upshaw stood up for players' rights and that's one of the biggest reasons the owners were upset with Al.
Its' the NFL and billionaire owners!
Corporations have the power to steal info from businesses, spy and pressure a business to cooperate with others if they want to share in the money.
If somebody has a problem they need to negotiate if they don't want to but do their own things then, something may come up or not happen(for them) that might intimidate or ruined some of their plans.
* Dude....if you weren't so funny this would be a very serious issue because you sound like you by the NFL and owners.
The NFL that want after Al in the early 00s' ain't the one he used to run over. This NFL don't care who he was, they just wanted to make money and tried to 'screw over the players and they wanted all 32 teams to cooperate with their plans.
* The biggest myth in pro sports is the cash strapped owner. That was a long time ago one of the things these billionaires did was make a system where they don't lose money and where they can make a profit in so many ways now its' just that they felt they could save money if the salaries were capped. And your media conned you to take their side and you listened.
The fact is they didn't look down on the players just didn't feel they should get paid big salaries. Well, these guys are gonna have health problems after they retire and have problems staying rich enough to support their families. But the owners still felt the players could be paid fairly and without outrageous, overpaid contracts.
The fact is that when you listen to either side the players or owners you need to really look at the facts and then take more time to really understand what is going on.
To side with greedy league and billionaires solely because the media supports them when you know the NFL/ owners have been greedy and put out a mediocre product every year.
think the players are being greedy? owners get:
t.v./ cable money
gate money
money to move to another city
tax breaks
investment(stake holders) money
sponsor(naming rights) money
NFL merchandise money
revenue from big business deals money(revenue sharing rules)
Your latest conspiracy theory is the NFL forced Reggie McKenzie to remove Al Davis employees and players from the Raiders organization after his death.
So, in one fell swoop, the NFL abandoned antitrust law that Al Davis helped codify.
And the earth is flat.
You act like the Raiders just discovered the shark infested waters of the NFL. Al made that bed too.
Fast forward, the NFL helped the Davis family move to Vegas and open up the most lucrative market in the league, in which the Raiders have the highest priced stadium tickets, and Mark Davis tripled his net worth.
Face it, the Raiders were bad (and still are) because of their own bad decisions. Period!
Stop making excuses.
Now, what does anti-trust have to do with hate and 'pay back'?
Did anti-trust stop them from 'screwing' over the Raiders in the past?
Dude....again, all you have is a nine year slump and that's a lot but when you try to make the NFL(?) look better than what they really are, your strong points are all you have!
Even the hater fans know the NFL 'screwed' Al many times in the past! Even the hater fans know they lost games because of it!
They laughed when it happened but they knew Al was the only one who stood up to them. Hey, if the NFL 'screwed' him out of a game or a big trade or hire of a good HC it was funny but when the league starts over charging fans and their(fan's) own teams start doing shady things fans knew Al MIGHT stand up to them and vote against their plans.
It was funny watching Raidernation buy that none sense about Al ruining the team but after years of seeing the NFL 'screw' the team and take this man's team, it's not funny anymore just plain sad.
Dude how can a team be bad before it plays a game less than a year after it just lost a super bowl? it would still be considered it's division Champion until the next playoffs.
They are the worst team in the NFL and have virtually no chance of winning.- '03
Front office isn't happy and there's dysfunction in the place.
Overspending on draft picks and star FA's in the reason this team can't win.- '10
Reggie's going to get rid of bad contracts, mediocre and lazy players and fix the salary cap.- '12
No chance of winning?: When the guy who said those things gave his opinion the Raiders were defending AFC Champions with a lot of pro bowl players on it and, the season hadn't started yet.
the front office is unhappy and dysfunctional?: why was it that all 31 other teams can have issues in their office but Al after 40+ years couldn't handle
Al overspent on star FAs' and draft picks?:
The idea is that if a guy gets paid he will play hard for it. But the media/ owners feel you make them work harder for a bigger pay check. You can argue for both points.
Now the media's/ fan's claim is that star FAs' quit on him and the draft picks were bad. CB P. Buchanon still is the all-time season picks leader of all Raiders' CBs' since '12 when he had six and played in the super bowl as a rookie. Is he one of those bad picks you talk about? No, I don't think Al's drafts over the nine year slump were that bad and I think the players did like playing for him.
The NFL doesn't care about anti-trust! they learned a lot fighting Al they aren't going to do something they can't cover up. But they now have these Wall Street billionaire with friends in the media, corporate and legal areas to help deal with lawsuits and rumors if they are a threat to the league.
Move to L.V. was the worst thing that has happened to the real Raiders:
1. they are losing more original employees every year.
2. its' a smaller market and the weather isn't good for people.
3. the Raiders, playing in a domed stadium?
4. over charging fans for games is a good thing?
5. most of Raidernation's fan fun events are gone(the Black Hole, tailgating the closeness of the seats).
6. The Raiders are now a corporation, they don't have a mom & pop image, they are allowing a lot of big businesses into their offices.
7. they are cheap with the players but want fans to spend on their product, which is mediocre. they refuse to spend big on star FAs' or hire elite HCs'.
8. they don't want anyone from Al's era on the team and seem o.k. with Al's legacy being ruined by people bought on both the business and football sides to replace Al's employees.
9. the Davis family doesn't have a stake in the "Death Star". this isn't normal and makes no sense.
Al's last drafts Part II
DL/ K. Mack and M. Crosby are very good but not great. They just didn't have the talent around them to do more.
But Al had a lot of guys from your draft lists. None were as good as Mack but they sure put produced sacks and batted passes.
J. Richardson and T. Scott got sacks- Sadly, Scott got injured and never was the same. DEs' Grant and Coleman had good years, Coleman later played for Dallas. L. Houston was a very good DL-could play the run and pass good and played for Chicago.
S. Williams was moved to OLB played decent but was one of the best special team'ers in the NFL. T. Bryton was decent but not a top NFL DE- later played for Carolina and Q. Moses was o.k. but didn't produce much until he went to Miami.
LB/ Some outstanding young talent K. Morrison was an NFL level guy and good LB, T. Howard was a very good, a top NFL cover LB. N. Harris was a pro-bowler and later played for Minnesota. T. Goethal was a very good player and if Reggie used him, could've been a starter.
Secondary/ Nnamdi was elite, P. Buchanon had six picks in '03, had decent career not great, still had 20 career picks-probably more than new regime's CBs', S. Routt was a very good CB underrated and criticized by fans- he would be a top CB for all three new regimes. T. Branch was almost a pro bowl level SS- he was able to do his job in the short passing game help in the deep passing game and was a top cover SS.
punter/ S. Lechler was a pro-bowler.
the Raiders had some outstanding players and
How do I make the NFL look better? You're engaging in more strawman stuff. I'm not invoking the NFL at all, only suggesting the Raiders be held accountable for their own personnel decisions, which you want to blame on the NFL.
Geez! For a guy to prop up Jerry Tillery and then claim that Khalil Mack and Maxx Crosby are good but not great, that's rich.
You're trading bubble gum cards. Nothing wrong with that, but you've lost sight of what actually happened over the past 20 years.
It wasn't just "a slump." Al Davis failed the Raiders and its fans when traded Jon Gruden and he continued to fail until after his death by not providing a plan for smooth transition. What happened in between got very ugly. Do we need to rehash the OH projector and "Al, please hire a GM" billboard days?
Maybe he is having trouble seeing things, with all the darknesss and all. Those who willfully live in darknesss, never see the light.You can fire facts at him all day long, but he will refuse them and carry on with his own so-called reality, looking to try and lure others into it's wacky world of sports. Momma always told me that you can't fix crazy, so best to leave it alone and let it play with it's children friends.
Jerry Tillery was a first round pick and a bust. The guys these new regimes keep getting except for some guys who they wouldn't keep(D. Autry, S. McGee, S. Harris, 'Jelly' ) were mediocre to average.
Tillery bought mediocrity and a bad attitude to LAC but he has the talent and size to change and play better.
No, both K. Mack and M. Crosby are very good and outstanding players but they aren't great with the units they've played on. How does a guy get 15 sacks and the unit is ranked in the 20s?
Look at D. Burgess and co. they put up a lot of sacks 20+. Al had SO MANY pass rushers on his bad teams('03-'11) I can name a lot of DE units that produced more than Macks/ Crosby's.
Al's best DEs' during slump('03-'11):
C. Clemons, D. Burgess, T. Scott, K. Wimbley, D. Tollefson, K. Coleman, L. Houston, M. Shaughnessey, T. Armstrong,
there are two pro-bowlers here(Clemons and Burgess) and there may have been two more(T. Armstrong and L. Houston).
You know NY, when you want to put down on Al's history you come out looking good actually but when I look into it and question your strong points you start to look more questionable than on your game.
Tillery was a no. 1 pick and a bust. Young was considered a reach and a decent DL draft pick. Tillery has the talent and has played on some good teams at N.D. and LACs'. If they can get him to be all in and get motivated they would have a top inside pass rusher.
Tiller HAD a big college career Young had a good career. I hope Young is a steal but Tillery is their best inside pass rusher.
To NY Raider,
How bad/ good was Al?:
1. he went on a nine year slump having some of the best personnel in the NFL over that time.
2. he overspent on star free agents and draft picks because he wanted them to play hard but they took advantage of him and only played to get a pay check. they did go to teams that payed less and won more games.
3. Al was losing his mind and getting more dysfunctional, he traded J. Gruden and B. Allen for three first round picks. allegedly, the picks were all busts like Nnamdi the best press corner for years and an elite CB.
4. made the Raiders poor by refusing to let a billionaire buy a big stake in the team.
5. drafted terrible players like- P. Buchanon, J. Veldheer, DMAC, J. Ford, S. Wisnewski and Nnamdi over that nine year slump.
What did Al do good 00-'11?:
1. drafted stars like Nnamdi, J. Veldheer, J. Ford, DMAC/ M. Bush, J. Porter, J. Barksdale and S. Wisnewski.
2. helped build a team that went to playoffs three years in a row and a super bowl trip.
3. built the best special teams units in the NFL over that 11 year period(C-Bass, Lechler, Ford, J.L. Higgins, J. Cooper and LS J. Condo).
4. stood up for the players to help fight against the new CBA and helped the NFL stop a player's strike.
* What did the new regimes do good/ bad?:
1. drafted stars like D. Carr, K. Mack, M. Crosby, T.J. Carrie, A. Cooper, L. Murray, J. Jacobs and K. Miller.
2. signed UDFAs' like S. Harris, D. Autry, E. Ingold, R. Streater, J. Richard, M. McGloin, J. Olawale and A.J. Cole.
3. built one of the best O-lines in the '10s.
What bad things did the new regimes do?:
1. been losing for 8 years after making big promises only two playoff games in 10 years.
2. ruined some of the best units in the NFL(special teams, secondary and D-line).
3. made Al's trades of players to the Patriots look almost normal. they've let four players go to the Pats for almost nothing in return- WRs' A. Brown, C. Patterson and N. Agholor and then sent a top OT back to them for a low draft pick(T. Brown).
4. fired every Al employee(front office) refusing to keep the best of them to help build the Raiders.
5. fired, traded and released every Al player/ employee letting other teams have some good players/ employees. refusing to sign star FAs' and draft elite players then refused to change their actions bringing in cheap players and mediocre draft picks. then, not bringing in top front office (some of them already worked/ working with Raiders) people to build a winner.
Logic tells us that if all you said about Al were true, the Raiders would have been a winning team in his nearly decade run after Gruden.
You said (unbelievable so):
"best personnel in the NFL"
"star free agents"
"Drafted star players"
"Built the best special teams unit in the NFL"
Do you hear yourself?
Here's the reality. Losing is failure, by definition. The Raiders didn't just lose a little. They lost epically, setting many records of failure in the process.
If you want to harken back to the good old days, you really need to go back further, like when the Raiders were once the winningest team on MNF. Think, Howard Cosell. That will get you back to a time when your arguments make sense.
Ray Guy- best punter in NFL history
D. Jensen- a pro bowl ST'er and one of the best ever.
J. Kimmel- played until he was in his 40s's as a special team'er.
S. Lechler the best punter of the 2000s' and a HOF level player
C-Bass one of the best kickers ever and a pro bowl level player
J. Cooper a pro-bowl coverage ST'er
Their special team's
Losing yes that's true Losing is the thing you measure a team by and it is supposed to win all the arguments. Like it or not and I don't like it and I usually could deal with it even with Al's Raiders BUT!, when thins make very little if any sense I question them.
I don't go thinking everything is simple, black and white and easy to explain.
For instance:
IF a team dominated its' division and and also was good enough to win playoff games three years in a row, have some of the best personnel in its' league and is run by one of the best ever in the league WITH!, one of the best front offices in all of pro sports.
I would believe they were able to handle the good and bad times. I wouldn't worry too much if they went on a 1-2 year losing streak but a nine year streak with the same people running it?
Then I would wonder if it was more than the GM if:
1. the league has a history of tampering and feuding with that team for in different decades.
2. if old rumors of NFL refs constantly 'screwing' that team over decades.
3. if the league allegedly, already, didn't like the genius GM and members of the league have said as much to the media.
4. if the league allegedly, purposely, knew about SOMEBODY telling coaches/ players not to work for that genius owner.
5. if that genius had voted against the league biggest plan(new CBA) and helped the players fight against them.
If I knew all of this I wouldn't be so quick to blame that genius for ALL the losing with the past winning record, front office and talent on the team. I wouldn't make the silly conclusion that there is no such thing as corruption and revenge.
Now again, I could see if the genius really lost for a few years or there were logical reasons for that team becoming bad(losing staff/ players, bad drafts) but that didn't happen IMO in this case.
Also, this is a PARITY league were mediocrity can win sometimes and a team should be able to fix it's problems faster.
If you are implying that this genius got so bad that the team became the worst ever that's plain not true and I took a stand to say it.
Nobody could lose like that(nine years) if they were the worst team ever because of the PARITY system. What's even more questionable about your points is this:
You guys constantly talk about front office people who worked for Al yet you want to also blame his front office for this situation- these are some of the guys who worked for Al between '03 and '11:
J. Harbaugh, D. Shaw, B. Musgrave, H. Jackson, N. Turner, John Fassell, K. Skipper.
Three of those guys you've been begging the Raiders to draft. One, was Carr's OC when they made the playoffs one was a top college HC and the other a super bowl winning HC.
Al hired all these guys first and all of them were here during the start of the slump.
No, I don't think losing can explain that kind of fall/ slump. If you want to side with the NFL/ hater media but the questions for the NFL's treatment of the Raiders have some big points over your decent but well criticized points.
Excuse me guys three of Al's ex-assistants some fans have been begging the Raiders to hire.
Strange, why would a fan base that felt Al made terrible decisions, was dysfunctional, hateful and bias in hiring front office people and almost senile want guys he hired? They might be bad assistants because Al hired them or good ones but still have some dysfunction from him with them.
Yet, Raidernation wanted some of Al's guys.
J. Harbuagh, D. Shaw and B. Musgrave
Round and round we go.
Your explanation for the Raiders historic failures is telling how great they were.
Am I the only one who sees the irony?
To NY Raider,
Losing and winning aren't the only things in pro sports anymore it is to us and is supposed to be to the front offices and was certainly that way for Al, Jones, DeBarolos, Maras, Broncos, Packers group, Manning's Colts, Seahawks and the Rooneys but its' not winning anymore it's money and power.
Money to keep value and power in legal protection, connections to politicians in Washington DC to make building stadiums and other things easier.
You see, no team, except us are losing why? because they are making big money and getting out of serious law suit threats because of the connections with people in government.
No NY, its' not just about wins and loses anymore. The old school owners really wanted this but it didn't happen until the '00s' and more billionaires started buying these teams.
These people weren't trying to deal with an old man fighting against them and kicking the asses of the NFL when a big issue that they fought over happened. They didn't want to fight they wanted to solve problem and they had the power to do it. Al saw it he just didn't see how really powerful the league had become because of them.
And when they saw what Al could do they later took action, that's right they broke the law, tampered and other things to intimidate Al, its' funny fans didn't notice things starting to happen between '01-'11:
Al was unable to win law suits against the league anymore. He used to win almost all of them.
The Raiders didn't get much sponsorship from big corporations and some feel it was because the NFL told companies not to do business with Al.
The Raiders went on a nine year losing streak.
After being a second chance for players media claims no good coaches/ players wanted to go to Oakland(?).
Coaches/ players who wanted to go to Oakland suddenly changed their minds.
Fake news is putting out unproven claims against Al/ Raiders.
Strange games were the Raiders just can't seem to play well and they being very talented would lose to some of the worst teams in the league.
Strange things like trading a pro-bowl WR for a 4th rounder. Now, Al himself said he couldn't find a better deal. Some star players claimed they went to their teams and begged them to trade for R. Moss and they refused- only N.E. made an offer for Moss. I think the NFL TOLD other teams not to make offers for Moss. Oakland drafted a DE, Striker Sulak and released him before mini-camp; he was signed by the Patriots who were looking for a pass rusher. When a player is released division rivals get first shot- so I guess nobody else was interested.
The old refs got much worst over that nine year slump even ignoring personal fouls against Raiders players.
* No, I don't think it was all because of bad decisions, management and hires. I think it was pay back and new billionaire power that HELPED ruin the Raiders.
Yes, because I don't believe many teams can just lose like that if they tried. I don't think even the worst NFL teams have ever could do that-that is, if they had the talent the '03-'11 Raiders had.
If you are so sure and committed to the idea the NFL is pure and couldn't get so corrupt fine but there are a lot of things the NFL is and its' not pure, its' controlled by Wall Street billionaires and has done a lot to make money and get power and has done things that they know are wrong but can use media to cover up things.
The day after Al died, Chris Berman of ESPN said Al Davis belongs on NFL's mount rushmore. Halas, Lombardi, Paul Brown, and Al Davis. I think that's true.
Without Al there are no Super bowls, no parade of hall of fame players, no mystic, no legend.
Yes, Al left the Raiders in disarray, but that was 2011. there has been more than enough time to right the ship, but it is Mark Davis that has failed in that regard.
Perfect example...Let Carr & Stidham go. Sign Jimmy G. Watch Jimmy G. have foot surgery. Not to know who will be Qb entering 2023/24 season.
Perfect example of Mark Davis in way over his head.
Ummmm.....Ghost Ship,
What was it that Raidernation/ media claimed was the BIGGEST reason the Raiders were losing.
Because Al 'MEDDLED' with his front office!!!
MD is doing nothing to 'meddle' its' the new regimes/ NFL that are making the decisions.
Its' decisions based on:
saving money but not winning
on the future of the team which the league not fans will decide
the L.V. super bowl which I can't believe fans don't see the corruption. the Raiders' 'brand', all the NFL events, cable/ t.v. ratings, NFL merchandise. they needed somebody to move to L.V. to set this up and its' sad that loyal fans are being used by the NFL while they set up a scam in L.V. to make big money for the owners. that's the only reason they wanted a team in L.V. to get that huge tourism, NFL fan and Raiders' fan money.
They lied about L.V. they didn't do it for the Raiders/ fan base they did it for the NFL.
Value of the team? and? what does that do for us? nothing! new stadium! and? what did it do for us?! we had a nice weather, iconic stadium to play. They also lied to us about why we should support the move/ new stadium- I thought it was supposed to help pay for star FAs'? the new regimes refuse to sign expensive star FAs'.
MD wasn't the guy who made those decisions, its' the regimes and NFL you wanted after Al passed that made some of those decisions; some that looked o.k. but mostly made the team average. others(decisions), that took us to the playoffs then to mediocrity and down the ladder of the NFL.
* Disarray? you had two QB's one injured and one a pro-bowler(C. Palmer). You had the best STs' in the NFL, a top 5 pass rush, top 10 secondary, and top 10 running game(DMAC and M. Bush). You mean, you can't win with that?
Ghost Ship.... As for MD, I don't think he made those decisions. I think he got advise to hire the new regimes. And the NFL/ owners had say in the new regimes.
We need to find out more about this story and why the Raiders moved to L.V. and hired Al's ex-players/ employees if they wanted a change? We want more info on the new Raiders' actions since '12.
Carson Palmer was traded for after Al died. It cost the Raiders 2 first round picks, and a 2nd round pick. Very debatable if it was a good move at the time.
Mark Davis has hired all the regimes. So their failures link directly back to him.
If he is getting bad advice as you claim, he should try something different. Because what he is doing now sure aint working.
I agree with you about Vegas. I have said all along that Al Davis never would have moved the Raiders to L.V. Al wanted the Raiders to go back to Los Angeles. NFL waited until Al had passed to reenter the L.A. market, because they feared the lawsuits from Al if they tried to block him from going back to L.A.
Al anon, how many times do we need to hear Raiders players and coaches say there are no moral victories in losing? Why can't you take them at their word?
I didn't believe delusions of grandeur existed for historical events until your posts. The Raiders have created an entire archive of what not to do and you keep telling us how great they were. The years you hold such high regard for were rife with dysfunction.
The Raiders record speaks for itself and it's not up for debate. You can't change it.
To Ghost Ship,
I meant the Raiders weren't in disarray after Al's death based on talent. They had more than enough talent to win in '11 when Al passed.
It was Reggie who decided the team needed to go in a different direction and make huge changes.
Reggie, if he gave Hue more time, might've seen them make the playoffs in '12 or gave Reggie some talent and experienced assistants he could've kept with Reggie's front office people and players he wanted to bring in.
MD didn't know anything about making decisions so it had to be NFL people giving him advise and that was very bad advise.
C. Palmer was traded for a 1st and a 2nd rounder and it was a big move that fans didn't like but for some strange reason the Raiders didn't want to bring J. Campbell back because I now hear that he healed from his injury before the '11 season was over, I don't know if that is true but it's a rumor. Al had passed and Hue wanted to honor him with a playoff game. The funny thing is it's not the loss to Denver that should upset fans/ MD it was the fact the the Raiders should've outright won their division what were they doing fighting for a Wild Card birth? Don't know why fans look back and make the Palmer trade so bad, he was a pro-bowler and a top NFL QB. They gave up a '12 first and a 2nd in '13.
Who did fans want Hue/ Al to bring in? We can't win with a good QB(Campbell) or a star(Palmer).
Just looking at that roster the team should've won a lot in '11 with Campbell, with Palmer they should've been a top NFL team.
But like the other eight years they just kept losing.
And it was the same cry Al's gone but the rest of the team needs to go.
Nobody ever asked:
1. how can a team this talented lose? how do you keep losing if in fact your talent is better than a lot of teams in the NFL?
2. why did Al suddenly get surprised or distracted by things that might not really bother him much in the past? Gannon and Gruden leaving when they still had a lot of talent and a good front office? If he didn't let losing stars in the past keep him from winning why now?
No, there's nothing that could cause this except Al. No tampering, no spying on team, no billionaire owners who were very upset with Al, no refs who work for the NFL, no NFL who were already feuding with Al and hated him. Not groups of ex/ current NFL people who were enemies of Al. Not huge corporations and billionaire groups that are partners with the NFL who don't want problems or somebody saying things to public/ media about things they don't want us to know until the league can make it sound good.
No, there's no corruption just a great league giving us great football. Al and the Raiders just ruined themselves.
You said before it was the NFL, not Reggie McKenzie, that demanded the Raiders rid themselves of everything Al Davis had established.
You keep moving the goal posts. Reggie didn't just decide to rid the Raiders of expensive free agents which Al signed, he had no choice. The Raiders were overextended with the cap after Al's last ditch effort to magically create a winner.
If you want to be an historian, you should get the facts straight. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
UMMMMMM.......REGGIE was TOLD to GET RID of everything, anything, as much as possible the employees/ players connected to Al Davis' era!
Why?:
because they(NFL) HATED him!
because maybe, his employees and players would keep the culture going and that was one of the biggest reasons they wanted Reggie to get rid of Al's front office/ players.
because the hated him and it was 'PAY BACK'! for what!?:
law suits
voting against their rules, messing up their plans.
messing with their money(all the above, and helping the Union help players make more money).
working with G. Upshaw's NFLPA.
not building a new stadium in Oakland fast enough.
not worrying about the value of the Raiders and refusing to bring in a billionaire/ group or corporation as stake holders.
going public with negative talk about other team owners/ sports media people.
They finally really got inside no Al to stand up to them.
I know Reggie didn't have any choice the NFL told him to get rid of all those guys!
That's why he was hired! what other teams were asking for permission to talk to him about a GM job!? What did he
IMO....this may be closer to the truth than the media/ NFL wants us to see about Reggie's era:
1. he had no game plan about building the team.
2. he didn't know coach Allen or much about him.
3. he himself had enough sense to know you don't completely overhaul a team because even the worse have some young players a new regime might want to look at.
4. the guy had some of the worst drafts in the NFL over a three year period except for two of them.
That's more closer to what happened than this claim he HAD TO rebuild the team so it could win later? No, so the NFL got it's 'pay back' and the culture would be destroyed and gone.
He got rid of expensive stars, over paid vets AND, the young players! he didn't just try to fix the salary cap. He over hauled the whole team! Why!? I said it before 'PAY BACK' for decades of feuding and Al kicking their asses AND, because the new billionaire owners were very worried and felt threatened by him.
4. the guy had some of the worst drafts in the NFL over a three year period except for two of them.
classic quote.
clinging to the Carson Palmer era as having a championship team but the refs league wouldn't let them win. Guess it wasn't the poor drafting, poor coaches and just plain bad rosters. It was the league holding a gun to Al's head to draft poorly and waste money on FA's who only wanted paydays. Ask anyone associated with football, ask them why the Raiders have stunk for more than 20 years. They will all give you the same answer, mostly anyways. Raiders were the worst run franchise in the league, Al was still sitting in 1974 in his office, while the rest of the league progressed into the 90's, 2000's, 2010's. Al was still using his drafting style of the 70's, there were no longer advantages in the deep south, salary cap put a damper on who he could sign. etc, the game had passed by the Raiders, period, and they are still recovering.
Al anon, you did it again. Wasn't it you who posted this: "It was Reggie who decided the team needed to go in a different direction and make huge changes."
Prior to and after, you said it was the NFL which forced the moves made by Reggie. Now you seem to imply Reggie was coordinating with or somehow in cahoots with the NFL to get back at the Raiders to force these moves.
Your posts are nonsensical.
It's no secret that Al got desperate in his final years, but he was always looking for lightning in a bottle, drafting freak athleticism over football acumen, and the Raiders paid dearly for that.
The results speak for themselves. Neither Al Davis nor the Raiders (post-Al) were mismanaged by the NFL. Al and the Raiders did that all on their own.
Al jumped the shark. The lack of planning wasn't on Reggie, it was on Al for leaving the Raiders in disarray and with no future direction.
NY Raider,
NOOOOOOO! You don't get what I said, you didn't the message! I'm sorry, I guess I didn't explain in the right way.
I said! Reggie was Told by the NFL, to erase everything connected to Al! he didn't have anything to do with the decision to do that and I doubt if a he'd have gone that far.
Reggie MADE a decision to go in a different direction WHEN IT CAME TO THE GOALS and SYSTEM OF DOING THINGS.
I don't think he would even want to change Al's culture(obsession with winning, loyalty). I think he'd just put the front office on the hot seat and take over the draft and free agent duties, bringing in modern things(more computers) and having a more NFL way of doing things.
Yea, he himself probably thought they should do different things but he wasn't the guy who decided to get rid of Al's employees/ players- the NFL told him to do that.
The draft isn't a perfect and you don't know who's gonna star or be a bust but I think a lot of teams would love some of the guys Al drafted over that nine year slump:
QBs/ T. Pryor
RBs/ DMAC, J. Fargas, T. Jones and M. Bush
WRs/ D. Moore, J. Ford, L. Murphy, C. Schillens
OL/ J. Veldheer, S. Wisnewski, J. Barksdale, L. Walker
DL/ T. Scott, J. Richardson, K. Coleman, T. Brayton
LB/ T. Howard, K. Morrison, T. Goethal
Secondary/ S. Routt, P. Buchanon, T. Branch, S. Schwagert, D. Van Dyke, M. Huff
As for the NFL being modern and Al being behind. This is what happened to the NFL after Al, Hunt and other legends passed away:
1. one team has been to ten super bowls in less than twenty five years.
2. one guy has more MVPs' and super bowl wins in twenty-two years than any other team/ person.
3. some of the worst games and super bowls in league history because the PARITY system
4. 7-9 teams make the playoffs
5. mediocrity is the thing fans support, were average teams get a few FAs' and can beat good-elite teams but it also causes mediocre games and some really bad playoff games and Super Bowls.
6. fans are over charged for season tickets in the new stadiums to see mediocre products.
That's not even the start of the things the NFL is about and you have the nerve to get on Al's case?
You fans are supposed to have enough sense to see a scam and not let them take your money and not give you a good product.
But when they come and with all the t.v. shows, singers/ actors and other things and start the big NFL draft, rumors and predictions there fans go- they are conned!
fans are paying outrageous prices, they're trying to cheer for a system not a team, sure they get outstanding entertainment, sports/ NFL news and social media products but little quality football, they're spending a lot on tickets but are getting a mediocre product.
Wow! Al maybe been a bad owner over the '03 off season and he was maybe stuck in the past but Al and the old legends have a competition committee that tried to make the game fun and competitive. Now, its a mediocre product that hype something it never really had PARITY and has made it so bad teams look good and anybody wanting to to their own thing will be criticized, if not punished by the league. The fans pay big prices for a mediocre product and believe they are in a great league.
Al had good drafts and was one of the owners who helped the NFL committees make the league competitive. Maybe you need to get some history and look at your claims before you make them and post them to others/ me.
"I said! Reggie was Told by the NFL, to erase everything connected to Al! he didn't have anything to do with the decision to do that and I doubt if he'd have gone that far."
Setting aside antitrust laws, here's where your conspiracy theory stands with me. It's ridiculous on its face. The Raiders are an NFL franchise but they are also independently owned. Suggesting the NFL told the Raiders to erase everything Al Davis is to suggest the owners of 31 other competing NFL franchises controlled the Raiders decision-making on all levels, including and especially their roster.
If that's your contention, and clearly it is after reading it over and over, none of your statements have credibility, IMO.
Even if you believe that (which is incredible), that doesn't explain why Al was so horrible for the nine years preceding his death... a period during which the Raiders reached Defcon 1 level of dysfunction.
To NY Raider,
There aren't any conspiracies in the NFL? Part I
Oh yea that's exactly what I'm saying! That's exactly what they did!
No, not all 31 directly but some of the billionaires, NFL execs, wall street corporations and huge corporations did this- some owners may've not been involved, just watched them do it.
The 31 other teams, it used to be about 27 because there were five teams that didn't want to go along with the NFL's plans(PARITY(not dominating), revenue sharing of everything when the team wants to keep revenue from private deals with businesses to themselves(Dall., Oak, S.F., Buff and Wash.) but they all joined the NFL except on team- guess who?
The NFL let the billionaires come up with the game plan to run the league. It was simple, just cooperate and get paid.
They wanted:
A salary cap on player contracts.
An end to guaranteed contracts for almost all players only the elite ones.
They NFLPA to help them to get the players to accept their plans.
For all teams to share revenue with the league even if they made private deals themselves.
For teams to be less focused on winning and work with the PARITY system. Don't keep stars too long and let them walk/ trade them so they can go to other teams to make a level playing field(they purposely weaken their teams after a playoff/ SB run so mediocre/ bad teams
Be all in and don't sue or fight the league.
To make money off NFL merchandise, new stadiums, T.V./ Cable/ internet contracts, the gate, PSLs', public money, billionaires/ groups buying stake in team, sponsors buying naming rights and luxury boxes.
Nothing wrong with all of these things but some of them are wrong.
Al stood up against this and the NFL was very upset. Now, Al was still suing and other things but he wasn't feuding with those 'old school' owners, he was dealing with billionaires no, he was dealing with some of the wealthiest and powerful people in the world!
"Oh yea that's exactly what I'm saying! That's exactly what they did!"
Clearly, your response is to skirt the issue because it can't be explained. You weren't talking about revenue sharing, salary cap or player contracts, etc. Those effect all teams.
You specifically said the NFL dictated Raiders rid themselves of "everything Al Davis" which means their roster, scouts, admin personnel, etc.
You make statements that you can't possibly back up, then you redirect with what appears to be "what you really meant." You even managed to circle back to your parity conspiracy.
So in your mind, 27 teams conspired against the Raiders to rid the Raiders of their roster and everything tied to Al Davis.
It's nonsensical.
To NY Raider,
there wasn't a conspiracy against Al? Part 2
Even you know something just didn't make sense. It wasn't on the field were the evidence is, its' everywhere! you say there wasn't a conspiracy against Al/ Raiders?
Well lets see:
When this alleged conspiracy started ('99-present) the NFL used its' new power from these billionaires to pressure Al to stop or teach him a lesson! The Raiders went on a nine year losing streak after playing the the super bowl but also:
1. Al usually won his lawsuits other than the one against the city of Oakland he didn't win many during that slump.
2. few, if any big sponsors would do business with him. you mean, nobody would do business with the legend and the Raiders' 'brand'?
3. strangely, star players and elite assistants wouldn't work for Al. though the team's history and Al's experience and culture used to be a hot spot for them to want to work.
Who told coach Peyton to QUIT the Raiders? an NFL people.
The NFL filed to be one corporation instead of 32 independent teams. They also filed to have the Anti-Trust lawsuits ended so you can't sue the league. The government instead put a cap on how much they can be sued.
Who voted for the team to move to L.V. except one(Dolphin owner)? NFL owners
Who didn't try to help the Raiders stay in Oakland but stalled until the stadium lease expired?
Who TOLD Reggie to erase Al's era- so you won't say I'm messing around and not standing by my opinions! It was!:
1. the billionaire owners of MOST of these teams.
2. the NFL
3. the huge media networks who I don't understand how but also had run ins with Al.
4. huge corporations that are partners with the NFL.
5. old enemies- some retired, some still in the league. Coaches, owners, NFL office execs, city politicians(L.A./ Oak.), politicians who are friends with some team owners.
That's who feuded with Al!
* Explain what happened off the field NY! why did it all suddenly go so wrong for Al in other areas of the team?:
SPONSORS refuse to work with Al(the big ones) the little ones did but not the big ones. But they worked with 31 other teams.
Why did he start having trouble winning in the courts? He used to win most of the time- who would have some pull/ influence with the legal areas of the government, Wall Street billionaires who own or work with huge corporations and have friends in the legal areas.
Anti-Trust!? Really? do you know now many times Al tried to sue during that slump the NFLs' actions?
Oh, and in another story, there was a NYJs' fan who filed an Anti-Trust suit against the NFL for alleged game tampering but the suit was thrown out, it wasn't whether he lost the suit it was that the attitude of the courts they didn't they wanted to go against the NFL. And then again fans were suing the Patriots/ NFL and both media and the courts defended the NFL. The NFL had asked the courts to stop Anti-Trust suits and they almost did but its' just very hard and they won't allow a big pay day or huge settlements/ lump pay days if a person wins the suit.
NY, you want to believe Al ruined the Raiders but you can't deal with the fact there might be huge questions about your/ media claims that aren't being looked at. The NFL has good things but does wrong things and may've tampered with Al's team.
They have a corrupt, bad side too and may've tampered with an NFL team. You want to prove Al ruined team but to pretend the NFL wasn't capable of corruption is wanting to be right without questioning the NFL and just blaming Al. Losing wasn't the only thing going on back them.
You're being comical, right? The truth isn't something I necessarily want to believe. It exists in the record books. But I also lived it in real time. The entire world witnessed Al's deterioration and the Raiders self-inflicted demise, i.e., except for you, for some reason. Your version lacks factual evidence and, honestly, common sense. Geez! Your version defies written antitrust laws.
The NFL and media are corrupt. No kidding! Stop conflating that with the Raiders failures. The Raiders lost on their own volition. Al wanted to be smarter than everyone else and made horrible decisions in the process. That's not a legacy you should want to carry forward.
NY, there's no corruption in any pro sport it's just guys making the same bad decisions over and over for some pro teams.
I mean, look at the histories of 31 other teams in '03:
Nobody in the 31 other teams ruined their teams like Al did. Because all of the others had their own geniuses that changed pro sports and built a iconic, legendary franchise.
Oh no, all 31 other teams in '03 had a winning system. They made great decisions and everybody helped in the decision making unlike senile Al. Oh yea, everybody knows it was Ron Wolfe who built his best teams anyway just as it was Madden who was the real motivator, and Gruden who built those early 00s' teams that were just talented enough to make the playoffs but the personnel was so bad not like 31 other teams. And as for QB it was Gannon who kept the Raiders in games without real talent to help him win and make things easier he had to carry the offense by himself.
Man, what a terrible GM. No wonder the NFL didn't do any special things events or name an award or anything else after Al passed because he embarrassed the NFL.
Why didn't he ever learn after all, he had 31 other teams to learn from he could be cheap and draft high character guys like the Patriots who loved to sign/ trade for Raiders all the time, or then there's the Steelers who don't pay stars a lot and will tell them to take a decent offer or leave, yea, Al should've been telling guys play for less or hit the door, or what about the really good teams
he should've drafted 'Megatron' yea that would've put him in the playoffs even though he had three HOF WRs' over that nine year period but it was a big mistake I mean look at how many wins the Lions had with 'Megatron'!
Maybe he could've learned from the Browns, Broncos or NYJs' when it comes to drafting QBs', or personnel? he could've learned from the Dolphins or Texans and managing a team? Jax was a great example, hiring coaches? what about Arizona or LAC? a team not stuck in the past? like Baltimore and Tennessee who still run power football and drop back passing games which are supposed to be too old to win football games anymore (but they have succeeded).
Yea, this is what you've been trying to claim was better than Al's era('03-11).
Al made so many bad decisions that all 31 teams just were better than Oakland. Forget the league was mediocre with only a few elite teams and the Raiders' had an elite roster. No, Al got run over by smarter and modern teams and their systems were better than Al's. So they learned so much and found so many great front office people that AL just couldn't beat these PARITY motivated, good and elite teams who just had better systems.
Yea right NY, that's the claim? you can make your claims but they really look silly.
What claim am I making?
Do you even know what's happened in the past 20 years? You keep repeating the same "Raiders were elite" message, but that could not be further from the truth.
-Raiders have the fewest winning seasons of any NFL franchise since 2002.
-They have zero playoff wins in that span.
-They have the most coaching turnover in the NFL during that period (my guess, not verified). One coach after another was hired and fired.
-They went thru miserable periods which other teams wanted to play them (to get an "extra bye week")
-we endured the embarrassment of Al Davis hiring Lane Kiffin after Steve Sarkisian turned him down, then the greater embarrassment of Davis firing Lane Kiffin.
-We endured the embarrassment of fans paying to erect a billboard to beg Al Davis to hire a GM because fans were tired of losing.
This is only scratching the surface.
One question: Where were you? Because you obviously missed this period in Raiders history.
he is sleeping in daaarrrkknnneeeesss. still chasing after young girls i suppose. you can see how it's mind works, able to twist twisted ideas and actions into something it isn't, a sure sign of someone with an affliction. it can confuse and convince itself, but that is where it ends.
To NY Raider,
So you want to talk about the last 20 years?:
You've seen billionaires ruin the culture of the league which was greedy and corrupt before they came!
One player/ team has won seven super bowls in under thirty years in a PARITY system where that stuff was supposed to be stopped.
owners making millions and not wanting the players to make more guaranteed money.
fans being charged outrageous prices for season tickets.
the same teams in the playoffs almost every year(Patriots, Steelers, Eagles, Packers, 49ers, Tenn. and Seahawks) in a PARITY system.
What did we have over the past 20 years? were we the worst team, stuck in the past, living on history with the worse GM controlling areas and ruining what he helped build? Did teams pass him did he lose too many good employees to make up for his bad draft/ coaching decisions.
We had the shock and pride of knowing he was still a genius and helped the NFL players to fight the owners' new CBA and we found out he helped the NFL avoid a player's strike in the 10s'.
We SAW his roster and knew it was better than most of the 31 other teams and was loaded with talent('03-'11).
We found out SOMEBODY was telling players/ coaches not to work for Al. Sarkasian may've or may not made the best decision but why would you reject the guy who put PRO SPORTS where it is today?
We knew Al had an outstanding front office('03-'11) because we wanted guys he hired(J. Harbaugh, D. Shaw, B. Musgrave, John Fassell, K. Skipper).
We know Al hired good HCs' because Hue was an outstanding OC, Kiffin got better as a person/ assistant and is a good college HC and Turner left us and kicked our asses with the Chargers for years.
Losses? we know that is the marker for a team but not in '00s'. PARITY says
* NO NFL team is an easy win especially those that have talent. If the Raiders were easy with talent why didn't we see this kind of slump in the late 90s'? They lost but I don't remember anybody claiming they could easily beat ANY NFL team. That is strange and there could be something wrong/ corrupt to it.
If the Raiders weren't winners when they were defending AFC Champions what were they?
If the Raiders didn't have ANY talent and had VIRTUALLY "NO CHANCE" of winning then tell us all NY, WHAT DID AL DO OVER THE '03 OFF SEASON to make this famous sports broadcaster make that claim?
What made the Raiders so bad and what change happened to Al/ team? Was it trading Gruden? I thought you said all three of those first rounders were bad? The guy you love to put down on, CB P. Buchanon, had six picks in '03(sorry, he had 2 in '02) giving him eight over a two year period. Now, what new regime CB has come close to that over two years as a starter?
What things did he do? Did he tell R. Moss to quit on plays, W. Sapp to cause locker room issues? Did he tell the defense to play down and lower than their competition?
Well NY?, did he get jealous of Callighan and tell him ruin their SB chances? Did he pressure some of the best players in the NFL to leave because of his dysfunction so he could get all the glory?
And who built the 00s' teams? was it Gruden and Gannon. Al's team fell apart when Gannon retired. Al forgot how to replace guys? Did Al tell his OCs' not to use ANY modern plays or their own ideas only 70s'-80s' plays?
Tell us NY! Tell us how the Raiders got so bad over he '03 off season to '11?
Wow! you sure love to make it all make sense. you might be right but I don't think Al ruined that team or his decisions were that bad!
"So you want to talk about the last 20 years?"
NO! I absolutely and definitely DO NOT want to talk about the last 20 years.
All failures! All due to Raiders ownership!
But you keep on defying logic and antitrust laws because you can.
No, these billionaires don't really have to worry about the Anti-Trust laws and they probably don't care about them.
Losing is the only way to measure how good or bad a team was?
The owners can beat the Anti-Trust laws because:
1. they have friends in media to make their side look much better before the case starts. some may even be partners/ investors in a media corporation.
2. they have friends in the legal system and the best lawyers in America and they know they'll
3. they have friends in government to collude with and get info on the people suing them/ NFL.
This is what Al, during the slump, had to deal with! Al was able to sue the NFL in the early 00s' but he couldn't win the big cases against the league anymore? what, did losing games affect his way of filing law suits?
Wall Street and some people with political friends in some of those companies or know politicians will defend the NFL if a huge law suit with some weight/ credibility to it is filed against them. They'll find a way to defeat, hold it up or, make the pay out much smaller.
That's what Al was dealing with. 20 years of losing no, it was nine years of strange situations and NFL tampering! He was doing great things during the slump and even losing he still was showing he was still relevant and a powerful help to others and even the NFL.
The losing? maybe you're right somehow the team just couldn't win even with a great roster of players and a genius running them. But the NFL can now, tamper and pressure its' members to do what they want and with billionaires using friends in government, the courts and sponsors its' hard to believe a guy like Al wasn't being intimidated by them.
NY, you can't just make everything black and white this is the NFL and it has a lot of lot of corporations and billionaires and it might be doing things that aren't honest.
Al Davis ran the team into the ground before he died. It's unfortunate but that's part of his legacy.
You need to stop sniffing glue or whatever has you believing the Raiders were elite during Al's so-called slump.
NY Raider,
Stop sniffing glue. I'm just looking at Al's guys over the nine year slump and I'm sure it wasn't the draft that ruined this team. I don't know why you continue to claim the team was one of the usual beat up/ losers even losing they weren't close to it. Like I've claimed, Al was called senile and dysfunctional but I find out he was a powerful help and gave a heavy hand lift to the NFLPA and push behind the players to fight the NFL/ owners over the new CBA. Those claims look questionable if its' true Al made bad picks for years and ruined us we can look at the list of good players and we can decide if Al was wrong, or he did do good:
C-Bass- pro bowl level one of the best kickers in NFL during '00s' almost a future HOF
S. Lechler- pro bowler, the best punter in NFL during most of his career a sure HOF
M. Bush- pro bowl level RB no reason he couldn't've been a pro-bowl RB in the NFL except of injuries.
P. Buchanon- some think he was a bust but he had eight picks his first two years. no new regime CB has that much over two years.
T. Branch- one of the best cover SSs' in the NFL. Reggie thought he could replace this guy?
J. Ford- he was talented as a WR and KR.
S. Wisnewski- could've been a decent center for us, some felt he wasn't that good- he could've been a center or a guard. Reggie's coaches didn't feel he was too good either. He has two super bowl rings.
J.L. Higgins- one of the most exciting players in the NFL in the early '10s' He wasn't the best WR and hardly played the position but was a top NFL KR.
K. Coleman- UCLA star
DMAC- an outstanding players never became the player Al thought he might he was criticized by fans/ media but sometimes played like a star RB. Later, had good years with Cowboys.
J. Richardson- was DE, moved to DT, could pressure/ sack the QB and batted down passes.
L. Murphy- dependable WR, made great catches and had good speed.
S. Routt- unfairly criticized, a very good player.
J. Veldheer- pro-bowler and an elite OT. played with Cardinals and Broncos.
Nnamdi- one of the cover CBs' in the NFL in the 10s'- A pro-bowl player.
T. Jones- a blazing fast RB and outstanding special team'er. showed he could be an outstanding KR when he got the chance. A pro-bowl special team'er.
When you draft kickers with your first pick you get exactly what you deserve, marginal talent behind those selections.
Very few of the skill players on your list did anything notable for the Raiders. Many spent most of their time with the Raiders injured, and others the Raiders gave up on entirely.
You're making my case for me.
NY Raider,
Well, the fact is whether they were injured or not the new regimes haven't come close to these guys. Not just mediocre drafts but terrible attitudes and lack of experience have made the new regimes far worse than anything Al put out on the field.
Its' the media and NFL feuding with Al that caused a lot of unclear and wrong pictures of the players/ team.
Lying in the faces of NFL fans and claiming this team had NO talent was one of the things easily proven a lie
* And some of those winning teams of the '00s' and '10s' were so bad that my claims look even better:
7-9 teams in the playoffs?
some of the worst super bowls in the league's history('00s')?
mediocre teams, injury riddled teams making the playoffs?
Ravens- its' a good thing Defense wins Championships because they had one of the worst offenses in super bowl history, it was almost '50s' level football, they were stuck in the past but they won a SB.
NYG- the team that played against the Giants lead by QB K. Collins with half the talent he had in Oakland, lost to a great defensive team in one of the worst SBs' ever.
Carolina Panthers- at least they had decent receivers they played the Patriots and it was a good game but this team has always been average with maybe a few stars.
Patriots- you can call them a dynasty but that first SB- you can have it! somehow their D kept it close until they pulled out a win with a FG by legend A. Venitari. They later played in more SBs' but the NFL seemed to be protecting them because they got out of legal and rule related charges back then but there wasn't much evidence to charge them. They won but weren't the most exciting team doing it.
* Then the NFL without Al, L. Hunt, P. Brown and others have been more of a joke then Al's era. Look at whats been going on since a lot of the legends have left/ pass away from the NFL:
one team going to ten super bowl in less than 30 years much less a little over 20?
the same teams going to the playoff with only a few new teams?
outrageous season ticket prices?
cities being threatened into giving teams public money to keep them from moving?
terrible rule changes designed to make the game more exciting but making it very unfair for the defense. teams score more because of the new rules for DBs' making it harder to cover receivers?
pushing out of blue collar fans?
using the media to help lie to fans about new stadiums. the claim and hype was that new stadiums pay for expensive star free agents but some teams refuse to sign them and fans get mediocrity but pay outrageous price to see their favorite teams?
creating a cap for the players while making millions from different things and going against the NFLPA and boss G. Upshaw and Raiders' owner/ GM Al because they fought for the players to get more money?
owners purposely letting their best players walk in FA to help bring more PARITY to the league.
This is what the NFL has been doing since the legends left/ passed away. You try to put down on Al but I think the league and the Raiders were much better back in the early '00s' than it is now. Try not putting down on Al and looking at the NFL and teams you're defending or trying to praise as a top league and football people.
* C-Bass?: Al-type pick he had success before! Yea in fact, he did it twice when he drafted future HOF candidate S. Lechler the same draft or a little after/ before.
C-Bass should've been a HOF candidate but that strange nine year slump somehow he just missed it. He could've hit farther FGs' but for some reason during the slump they didn't give him the chance as much as they used to.
Decision-making and timing are part of the NFL process. Just because a player was good in college, or after he left the Raiders, doesn't make him good on the Raiders, nor does it make the Raiders better (or elite) for picking him. And injuries could be tied directly to the training staff, particularly, when there are patterns of injuries which the Raiders have had, like groin injuries which plagued DMAC.
Daniel Carlson was a reject from the Vikings and he's proven to be all the Raiders need for a kicker. As good as he was, Janikowski was another wasted first round draft pick, for which the Raiders have had many.
You keep wanting to prop up the Raiders despite so many failures. I get that's what defines fanaticism, but your overstatements and distortion of the truth lie well beyond reason.
Raiders have been marred in stupidity and dysfunction, with bad coaching and underperforming players. Cumulatively, that falls on ownership..., i.e., the Davis family.
Even with NFL pressures, corrupt media and other obstacles, the Raiders have grossly underperformed any reasonable expectation. I can't pretend they did the best they could, because they didn't.
C-Bass?: No C-Bass wasn't a wasted pick you just follow the same stereotype of drafting the sexy pick, which is surprising/ almost unbelievable considering the new regimes mostly refuse to do that.
They(new regimes) avoid elite college stars then media tell fans how great their reaches are.
You want that QB, RB or WR you want them to find that edge, DE or DB and that's great but sometimes a GM sees things that can keep a team winning for years like a dominating special teams.
Was Ray Guy a bad pick because he was drafted in the first round? Man Al just sucked everywhere! who would want a Guy on their team? And Lechler, man this is why you
The greedy NFL, wanting to promote the league doesn't like it when kickers are taken high because it kind'a messes with the image of NFL stars- Its' o.k. for a kicker to be a pro bowler but not close to the best player on the team. Kickers are supposed to be paid decently and not given bit or guaranteed contracts and not guys you keep for a long time.
The league wants unit stars not a kicker and guess who changed that? Yea Al and Ray Guy! what a terrible pick!
Guy was one of the best defensive players in NFL history- How? he put teams in situations too many times and he could do it from the Raiders' end zone. His hang time was awesome and he bought excitement to the game and helped change how teams draft players; Al bought another star to the NFL but special teams player. Now, do you want to say he wasn't a good draft pick?
Nobody in the NFL really believes Al forgot how to draft talent!
* You just want to support the Pats' guys and the other past regimes. No NY, its' not just doing a good job and making good decisions, it takes either very committed and experienced front office people or special guys to build a good team.
And BTW.....C-Bass and S. Lechler were the best kicking team in the NFL before and after that slump. So again, your points don't really look so strong after questioning and looking longer into all the facts.
No pro teams makes those many mistakes and the front office itself not ask for changes even if its' the owner and his actions not show up easily when we/ media looks into it. Other than a few obvious mistakes(J. Russell, J. Walker, DHB) Al's moves look average to good.
Al didn't ruin this team and cause a nine year slump. Really bad teams or over confident/ arrogant coaches/ GMs sometimes make huge mistakes but not any that cause nine year slumps. And the NFL didn't just play good guys with little power to slow down Al, they were doing something.
Please! Drafting a kicker with a first-round pick is, by definition, a wasted pick.
Acquiring Raiders current star-kicker, Daniel Carlson, off the Vikings scrap pile proves that!
How many championships did the duo of Janikowski and Lechler win?
Crickets!
Raiders wasted draft capital on a regular basis over the past 20 years. There's no escaping that fact.
To NY,
Yea, I guess they didn't exactly keep up with New England or Carolina in super bowl trips but when you've got outstanding talent in one positing it also give you a reason to think you have a chance to win.
Now when outstanding units aren't helping a team win it doesn't make media/ fans stop criticizing the team. But some might look and see talent and that might create questions against your claims, some might feel there could be more if not another reason for the losing.
Well, how many elite kicking units don't go to the super bowl and if they were the best in the NFL during that nine year slump then it goes to show Al had at least one elite unit but it wasn't able to help them during that nine year slump BUT!!!, it did help them win before!
NY, its hilarious that you would even go after the only unit nobody would challenge, the most elite unit in the NFL for years to prove your points and you look silly.
Al not only had the best kicking unit in the NFL he had a top secondary over that nine year slump.
He had a lot of huge star draft picks the new regimes had a few but wasn't able to build a good team around them.
Nnamdi- one of the best cover corners in the NFL for years.
D. Burgess- the Raiders had a lot of great pass rushers and Burgess was one of them.
M. Bush- a first round pick if not for injury.
C. Schillens- seventh round steal was a very good young player.
Z. Miller- good tight end had good years with Raiders left unhappy with some team decisions.
J. Veldheer- elite LT Reggie didn't think he was too good to be replaced.
Stephen Wisnewski- a guy who could be a good OL and play decently in different inside spots on the OL. Reggie let him walk and he has two super bowl rings.
T. Howard- good player, one of the best cover OLBs' in the NFL.
TP2- wildcat QB
J. Richardson- DT, T. Kelly and D. Bryant were UDFAs'.
Al had good players and they should've been winners. You don't want to admit that fact but you still have holes in your claims.
But when you say a team wasn't elite or bad but one of worst in NFL history!? Some looking at the talent/ facts may have questions against your claims feeling other things might helped ruin it if not made bigger problems other than the main source claims of your accusations, blame and claims.
There's the list again. All the players that didn't and couldn't help the Raiders overcome their own dysfunction.
Zach Miller and Derek Burgess. Great players. Big deal.
The underpinnings of the Raiders were a disaster. There's no getting past that, no matter how many times you list these same players.
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"NY, its hilarious that you would even go after the only unit nobody would challenge, the most elite unit in the NFL for years."
That's not what I did at all.
Apparently, you are having as much trouble understanding my posts as I am having understanding yours.
I never criticized the kickers. I criticized the use of a first-round pick on a kicker. More evidence of wasted draft capital and poor decision-making by Davis. Plenty of good kickers in late rounds and undrafted. Again, look how the Raiders acquired Carlson.
Insanely, you herald selecting a kicker in the first round as some kind of genius. Like the Raiders had no choices but to make all the bad decisions they made that resulted in your so-called "slump."
Bizarre!
The Raiders' special teams units since '73:
The Raiders have had the best OVERALL special teams units in NFL(merger) since '73.
And from '03 to '11 it was just as good as their super bowl units in fact, it was in a super bowl just a year earlier- 1/'03- these are some of the players on the Raiders' special teams units '03-'11:
S. Lechler- the BEST punter in the NFL.
C-Bass- a pro-bowl level sometimes, pro-bowl kicker.
J. Lee Higgins- 3 PR tds' in one season.
J. Ford- 4 KR td's over two seasons.
Chris Carr- a very good PR.
Nick Miller- good KR
LS Jon Condo- was a pro-bowler and one of the best LSs' in the NFL.
coverage- J. Cooper, Ekubajiba(LB), S. Williams, R. Cartwright, D. Van Dyke, B. Meyers.
Some of the coverage guys were pro-bowlers and they were the best in the NFL most of those nine years but somehow couldn't help the team win.
Any one of those 31 NFL teams would loved to had that kind of talent. They had a good unit and other good players but you want to make them the worst in the NFL maybe one of the worst(over nine years) in NFL history. But there are questions and your claims can't solve all of them. Teams just don't lose that long and a team with talent and good front office has some reason to lose like that.
M. Crosby/ he is a star but getting a little older. L.V. doesn't understand pass rushers- they need rest. Gruden/ Mayock drafted M. Koonce, they need to give him some reps.
Jerry Tillery/ he's their best pass rushing DT. the Pats' guys need to coach'em, try to motivate him and want to be better and maybe they might have a good player.
?/ fans should understand this regime didn't look for the same DTs' that Al did, they wanted NGs' because they're used to a 3-4 D. Its' not easy to find a pass rushing DT and this regime isn't used to trying it. So they need to find out who'll be their other starter at 4-3 DT.
C. Jones/ vet needs a back up DE/ edge to give him more rest.
T. Wilson/ A good pick but some say it was a safe one, he's more of a true DE than an edge(IMO...an edge is 235-260). We'll see if his size helps or hurts him(270lbs.); C. Ferrell got the same hype but never became the star Gruden/ Mayock hoped he would. Its' harder to dominate in the NFL and some can't put up big stats as in college- some aren't able to do the things they did there. But Wilson looks like a good pick and could be a star.
D. Deablo/ a good player but gets injured a lot. he might be their best pass covering LB. they need him or somebody to cover better.
R. Spilane
?/
N. Hobbs
?/ a rookie CB from the Raiders? o.k., Hobbs was a steal a few years ago but I think they really need to find a good veteran CB to start.
T. Moerihg/ I think the Raiders should find a veteran FS and trade Moerihg. They might get a back up DT, CB or lower draft pick.
Epps/ no, its' not going to be rookie C. Smith.
A.J. Cole/ another very good punter the Raiders have found. they need somebody to help keep offenses on their side of the field.
key players on D: Crosby, Jones, Tillery, Epps, Hobbs, Cole and Deablo.
Please. Tillery was booted unceremoniously from the Chargers and there is no evidence he will be better now than he was then. He cost the Raiders the 49ers game with a boneheaded penalty. No way he starts for the Raiders, and that's saying something considering the Raiders have no established starters on their interior D.
Tillery was a bust for the Chargers and for some reason the Raiders are paying him a million dollars a tackle while they figure it out. Hopefully, they have an out in his contract.
NY and other Anon,
Well, they better look for a DT because Tillery is the best we have right now!
The Raiders' regimes like to put their money and draft picks on the OL and the receivers/ TEs', they don't worry a lot about the DL.
Tillery IS the best VETERAN PASS RUSHING DT we have! He's the most experienced of the guys from last years' roster.
When a guy is a bust, has a bad attitude you want to get rid of him but if a team can get him to work hard, listen and want to help win then maybe he might play better maybe start to
FOA...we need two starting DTs'- period! we need a top NFL CB and FS. We need a faster RB and a starting OLB. But the regimes keep the same Bellichick/ NFL way and that makes it easy to predict their moves it's like the other ones:
They refuse to sign expensive star FAs'.
They won't trade for a veteran help.
They made a mistake trading TE D. Waller.
They made a mistake letting QB D. Carr walk.
They almost refuse to draft elite college players.
They'll get rid of expensive contracts even if the guy is playing well.
We went Alabama U. again and it usually doesn't work out for long. B. Young might be a steal but to claim he's our best hope for a pass rushing DT when he wasn't asked to do that in college is trying to make big claims that don't really add up.
* Raiders should trade J. Jacobs while they can. I don't think they really want him- just pretending like its' all on him if he wants to stay in L.V.
He should go because they NEED a faster RB. He's for a power offense the Raiders had enough talent to start to put up points and decided to ruin their offense by getting rid of some of their stars.
Maybe they could get a top CB or DT for him or a high draft pick.
They should trade FS T. Moerihg and maybe get a low draft pick.
We need to look for a veteran QB to be our temp until Jimmy G. is ready to play.
Wow! the Raiders getting hype when they don't have a lot of vets on the team or UDFAs' and FAs' to talk playoffs they need more game plans and FA vets to have a chance to win this year. You want to put down our past eras' like Al's but you really need to question the NFL and the Raiders' new regime.
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