Chargers Gamenight Thread
Mark Davis is lucky that the Chargers are cheap and inept, otherwise we'd be at rock bottom in the AFC West in terms of our near-term prospects.
While we were screwing around with Josh McDaniels, the Broncos pivoted more quickly on their mistake and snagged Sean Payton. Now we not only have to contend in our division with a near dynasty with the Chiefs, but also with a Broncos head coach who seems to know a thing or two about winning and quick turnarounds.
Antonio Pierce was minty fresh after the stink that McDaniels left behind. But are we sure that he's the right operational talent to go toe to toe with Andy Reid and Sean Payton for the next five years? Do we feel that Aiden O'Connell might soon stand equal in ability to the other three current starting QBs in our division?
If the answer is no, then you have the answers you need when it comes to approaching the offseason.
For now, it's time for the Raiders play for respect and pride after getting shut out (!) by the Vikings and blowing the last chance of a longshot Wild Card bid.
In a weird way, with no real stakes at hand, this still feels like a must win.
GO RAIDERS!
posted by Raider Take at 4:08 PM
74 Comments:
This is a playoff game for the Raiders. Not because they have a chance to make the postseason, but because they have leadership from guys like Maxx Crosby, Bill Spillane and Devanate Adams, and Josh Jacobs on the sideline.
These guys are all warriors and the best group of leaders the team has had in a long time.
Unfortunately, the offense is a mess. With Kolton Miller, Andre James and Josh Jacobs out, and Aiden O'Connell looking like a deer caught in the headlights, this is another trap game (Herbert and Keenan Allen out) that the Raiders could easily lose.
Antonio Pierce has his hands full. Take 6 of his job audition. I'm in until I'm not, and I'll be honest, I'm losing steam.
But this game clearly means something to warriors like Crosby, who this week scoffed at the question should players be held out to prevent serious injury looking to next season.
Crosby is the guy who broke his hand in a preseason game as a rookie and had it put in a cast so he could go back out and play.
Crosby is the face of the Raiders, no matter who plays QB or who is HC.
Raiders need to go win one for Crosby!
I'll add this, if Zamir White has a big game, Jacobs is done... he's probably gone anyway.
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* NY, if you can't explain why the NFL way isn't working and why the league acted so classless in the early Y2k you need to learn about their greedy schemes and how upset/ unhappy/ angry they were with Al about the CBA.
So, they don't mess with their own contracts? Dude....really! one of the biggest points I have about the corruption of the NFL and the fall of the Raiders is exactly because of their attitude toward the NFL layers.
the story:
the NFL changed things when they found out that a lot of corporations, investment groups and billionaires wanted to buy NFL teams.
all these people wanted to join the league and spend billions on NFL teams was for a few big changes.
1. they wanted a win win system, no money loss.
2. they wanted a salary cap on veteran and rookie first round draft picks.
when billionaires took over the league in the early Y2ks' they voted on a new CBA to keep salaries low! they were so greedy they even locked out the players.
1. attacked NFLPA
2. attacked Raiders' owner Al Davis
3. threatened to replace players with scabs if they went on strike.
4. threatened to find players for holding out/ striking.
Does that sound like big spending, player backing owners? Yea, that's what I thought!
Al was the guy who voted against that new CBA, he went to the media about it but they didn't give him much positive support.
Now, the NFL was upset with Al one of your claims was that no star wanted to work for Al! the players were happy with Al for voting against the CBA. So, why wouldn't the NFL's star players not want to play for the man who helped them?
Yea, right! and the didn't go to the Raiders during the slump and of all the teams to lose for nine years it was Al that the league was upset with?
Yea right, you can't really make sense of it can you? A league that hated a team/ man for years and he does even worse and blocks the schemes of its' new owners who are billionaires but they wouldn't try to do something against/ to him to get revenge because 'Oh, its' not that serious and they are probably just feuding but nothing serious'? And that team can't win for nine years? stop it.
Hey, Anon - you've been fairly consistent with peppering your takes with health info, which I find curious yet enjoyable. Are you in the health/medical field?
Not sure about the conspiracy. What I am sure of is that Mark Davis personally hired a terrible coach at the same time the Broncos did with Hackett, and now they have Sean Payton while we're scratching our heads. That's on Mark, another big mistake without a compelling answer.
Go figure!
Yeah, go figure is right. I think what happened here is the Chargers. How far they've fallen, almost seems like they're trying to get Staley fired.
That said, props to the offense for getting off the mat and delivering after getting shut out.
I agree the Chargers have contributed to the score but, damn, everything is clicking. Hardegree is calling a decent game, first time from upstairs. O'Connell has been laser accurate and better at looking off defenders. One really nice play-action. I didn't love the trick play lateral and pass, but it worked. The O-line looks better. Munford is really holding his own at LT.
I wish the game could end at the half... and I'm sure the Chargers do too.
Holy Crap! I had to put on my Bo Jackson jersey cause we are trucking everyone. I think Staley gets fired after this game, and becomes OC for Raiders next season. Just blowout baby! I am predicting 56-3 final at halftime.
Okay, this is getting embarrassing... in a good way, not like last week.
That trick play was better than the first. Meyers is 2-2 passing with a TD.
AP said at half that he planned on keeping his foot on the gas.
Chargers should have fired Staley at halftime.
Last 3 drives look like the Raiders are going through the motions. Chargless' are going to stack the box as we just run. I was hoping for 56+ points but dont think that will happen. But how long has it been since we didn't lose to a no-name QB's first start?
HOLY CRAP!!! WHAT A HIT BY KOONTZ AND FUMBLE TD BY JENKINS!!! RAIDERS ARE TRUCKING!!!!
It's reasonable to conclude the Raiders are not as bad as last week and not as good as last night. Clearly, they had help from the Chargers last night. Yet I couldn't help but notice the pleasure Mark Davis took in TV shots of the owner's box.
Safe to say AP did himself a big favor with that team effort. Coaches and players were all dialed in and on a mission to vindicate the Vikings game.
Pierce is in this thing to be the Raiders HC. He has sought counsel from former head coaches from his past as a player and coach, and from qualified staff with the Raiders organization. Don't think Davis isn't watching.
Winning teams come in many forms. Pierce was dealt a bad hand. But his approach to motivate and improve the team has been impressive. He has intensity and purpose that Bisaccia didn't.
I'm re-upping my prediction. I think Pierce only needs to keep it competitive and respectable for the remaining three games and he's in. The players are lobbying for Pierce.
Hell, based on televised reactions from the owner's box, MD might have been drafting a HC contract after that game.
That was one for the ages. We saw Jack Jones channeling Jack Squirek.
Didn't anyone else notice how well Munford played at LT? Also, Parham at center. And Hardegree who opened up the playbook from the coaches box upstairs. And they had a plan to beat Khalil Mack, which is something that totally escaped Josh McDaniels. Even after watching Mack sack his QB time after time, McDaniels did nothing different, then lied after it.
Staley will be fired after that mail-it-in performance by his team. If AP remains the Raiders HC, it's at least remotely possible that Harbaugh could be hired to coach the Chargers. That would mean Reid in KC, Payton in Denver and Harbaugh in LA.
Sh*t!
I woke up watching highlights today to make sure I wasnt dreaming last night. Nope, that really happened. I still believe Pierce will be our next coach, and we are looking for an above par OC, and QB. I am not sold that O'Connell is the answer. NY, I agree Mumford and Parham stepped up HUGE! KC next, let's kick them while they are down. Just won, baby!
Raider Take,
I just want to let people know its' winter and they need to have their plans for the flu, cold and Corona Virus and be on the lookout for any news about new diseases that might be floating, creeping around and they are trying to tell the public about.
* Well, I've seen some terrible game but this one is bad.
This was a win and I guess fans will be happy. But does he
We don't need to draft a QB in the first round. A franchise QB is a big part of building a good team but its' not always that important. The Raiders and Washington teams used to sign or trade for veterans to lead their teams.
Conspiracies?: Al stands up against the NFL during the slump, he stands up for the players, he is supported by the NFL players, he works with NFLPA boss Gene Upshaw to help players and the Raiders.
the NFL/ owners are angry with Upshaw about player salaries. they lockout players who threatened to strike.
Al publicly supports the NFLPA and the players. He is talking about other things that make the league upset.
the owners vote on the CBA and the players are upset and the owners lock them out.
Al helps the players, they work with him. Al still votes against the new CBA, the players support him but they decide to work with the NFL.
Now, Raidertake how is it that of ALL the teams in the NFL the Raiders lose for 9 years?
Yet, they kept losing. Nobody else did that and there were some mediocre teams back then.
and its' Al that the league is very upset with? No big loss of stars, only one real bust over that 9 yr. period(J. Russell), only 1 big loss of staff(Gruden).
And they go on a 9 year losing streak. The media/ fans blamed Al and made claims against the Raiders, I wanted to see if they can look/ stay strong against some questions or opinions:
nobody(stars) wanted to work for Al anymore: well, why did the players support him helping them with the new CBA? you trust him in business about your money but you don't want to work for him?
losing a great HC and QB ruined Al: but Al never let that stop him from trying to win.
Now I dont' think the cl
I have said it for awhile here, I think Antonio Pierce is the next HC of the Raiders. What does he need to succeed? A high caliber OC, a DT, depth on the O-line (RT, RG, and C), a QB like Caleb Williams. That's it!
With that said, I thought Staley was an OC before this job, but he is a DC, so scratch him as a new OC candidate. I'm sure he will land somewhere back in that role. Spanos went full Mark Davis last night and fired him and the GM. Say what you want about the game last night, it was a great win for the Raiders, made my top 5 all time favorite games since I've been alive. The Chargless' didn't seem to try on some plays. For instance, Bolden's TD run, Munford missed a block, got a hand on the LB, but not enough for the LB to whiff on the tackle. Instead, the LB stuck an arm out and that's it. Chargless' quit on Staley; but they didn't quit until it was 28-0.
People saying that wouldn't have happened with Herbert in the game, I'm not sure. It may not have been 63 points that we scored, but the way our team made plays last night, I'm not sure Herbert walks out with a "W". The Raiders scored 42 by halftime, and on a good Chargless' defense. 21 of those points came on turnovers by the RB, QB, and PR. I don't think Herbert fumbles the ball like Stick did on his first half fumble; but the way Koontz hit Stick, I don't care who the QB is, they lose the football there. That was a monster hit! Not sure Herbert throws the WR screen to Jack Jones for the pick 6 either; but that is going to be a highlight for some time.
My top 5 Raiders' games since I've been alive (born 1974):
1) 83/84 AFC Championship vs Seahags. This was my first live NFL Game, my dad got tickets from Al Davis while working at the LA Coliseum leading up to the game.
2) 83/84 Super Bowl vs Redskins. Media never gave the Raiders a chance, and they dominated every aspect of the game.
3) 79/80 Super Bowl vs Eagles. This was the first Raiders game I remember watching with my dad (who was a huge fan).
4) Last night's 63-21 Win vs the Chargeless. How can you not love that @$$ kicking?
5) '95 Week 4 vs the Eagles. Jon Gruden was OC for the Eagles, they scored 24 points to start the game, and then the Raiders put up 49 unanswered.
Staley just got his ass handed to him, and was shown no respect by his players in the process.
No thanks!
I still see two paths for Mark Davis:
1) Keep AP and let him decide who should be calling plays, while building off what's there.
2) Hire Harbaugh and allow him to go scorched earth the Raiders, again.
IMO, any assumption that Harbaugh will build off what the Raiders current roster is misguided and does not follow history, recent or past.
In a Harbaugh world, only Maxx Crosby and Kolton Miller are safe, and even then...? I thought Khalil Mack was untouchable.
Pierce made a point to direct media to Michael Mayer's first play of the game which is takes Khalil Mack to the ground. I just watched it. Mayer earns the name "Big Mike".
I totally understand wanting Jim Harbaugh to be HC, but my opinion of the team, its coaches and roster has evolved since McDaniels was fired.
Sure the team is playing better since McDaniels was fired. He was that toxic and I think that is the reason more than anything Pierce has done.
Destroying the Chargers was awesome and I have said here the last few weeks mroe than anyone else that the Raiders have talent throughout the roster.
However, I will not delude myself into thinking that Raiders killing a depleted Chargers team that had thrown in the twoel in a maningless game suddenyly means there are not two fundemental problems remaining. 1) Pierce is not a good enough coach to make the Raiders playoff winners 2) AOC is not the answer at QB.
That is two giant holes that if they can be addressed in the offseaon the frachise will be on track. I am looking forward to the KC game, if they can win that game I will reconsider my views on both 1 and 2. They need to win it not any of this competive crap.
Sandy
The sample (job interview) was never one game. Chargers game is no exception.
The giant holes you refer to have eluded the Raiders for literally decades, so filling them with competent people should not be taken lightly, nor assumed in any way. Many players and coaches have tried to reach their potential with the Raiders and failed.
With that in mind, be careful what you wish for. We've watched this play out many times. Bisaccia was clearly the right choice last go at this. Assuming Harbaugh would even coach the Raiders, I hope Davis isn't guess-wrong when he chooses. He's had quite a run of bad luck.
I agree a win over the Chiefs would be worth special consideration. That would be bigger than one game, given the ridiculous record Reid and Mahomes have against the Raiders.
Remember the circle trot by the Chiefs' O-line? I won't be truly happy until the Raiders return that favor. Maybe a Meyers to Adams TD is in order.
the new Oakland Raiders aren't suffering at all they are a huge success and they've been winning.
they've been winning on the business and money making sides.
Al Anon-
The new Raiders are doing better!
Wow! they put up some points shocked the LACs and played much better than they have in over a year!!
Wow! they made fans very happy and electrified and excited them!
but the LACs were depleted with injuries.
the new Raiders don't need to beat K.C. they just need to play well but they don't need
the fan are supporting the same system. the NFL
1. the league needs to leave the new Raiders alone and let them make decisions own their own.
2. they need to draft a few players for athleticism, size and speed and draft for high character and their system.
3. they need to spend more on star free agents.
4. they need to make trades for players and draft picks.
5. they need to draft/ sign a ton of DBs' because they have problems in the secondary.
6. they need to sign a veteran QB and NOT try to draft a franchise QB.
7. if coach Pierce is their choice then try to get him some star assistants to help him.
8. they should trade J. Jacobs, T. Moehrig, J. Meyers and K. Miller.
9. if they want to hire guys from a dynasty/winning program try and get some of their team's older assistants to come to L.V. too.
Al vs. modern offensive football: the league is full of ex-OC/ college coach types and they are bringing in all kinds of new schemes and scoring a lot of points. one of Raidernations opinions of the Raiders' falling so far was that teams just passed the Raiders by with modern play calling.
Al built outstanding defenses and there is nothing showing they couldn't shut down teams and he Never made his assistants stick with old plays.
Al and the Pats' guys '22: he would tell McDaniels to either be the OC or help him. he'd let Zeigler find his franchise QB but the defensive players would fall on Al. he'd let them find some high character guys but he'd pick some bigger, faster draft picks.
he'd also make sure these guys bought in good assistants and not sit talent on the bench and use the speed on the team.
Al and D. Adams, K. Mack, K. Miller, D. Carr, M. Crosby and D. Waller:
he'd gave Carr a few years then probably traded him because Carr doesn't really throw deep a lot, D. Adams would be very busy might even keep Carr on the team if Al saw Carr could throw deep, probably would've traded Mack anyway but he'd get much more than what Gruden did, K. Miller might get moved to RT but he might trade him and bring in a more athletic LT, he'd pay Waller and he'd be very busy, M. Crosby he'd turn into a two down player- he'd make sure there were more D-linemen to keep Crosby healthy and rested.
Al Anon you don't know crap about Al Davis if you think he would turn Maxx into a two down lineman. Maxx is awesome against run and pass you fool.
Personally, I can't make sense of any of it.
From NFL conspiracies to spending on star players (presumably, over the salary cap), to bringing in star assistants (like that's never been tried), to trading Kolton Miller (because who needs a top LT), to resting Maxx Crosby (you know, like Al used to rest Howie Long).
You can't!?
Star assistants: We don't have the kind of OCs' and DCs' other teams have and that's why our players don't seem NFL level because we don't have a lot of star assistants to work with them. Not saying we've had bad assistants but there are some really great coaches that could help at some of our positions.
And if you don't think this makes sense- Why are you ASKING for Jim Harbaugh who was an ASSISTANT with us before building the 49ers into an elite team?
Salary cap? ummmm.....most of the owners have tried to make sure that contracts aren't guaranteed or that they don't pay the full contract before the player leaves the team. its' nothing new-, its' just that they are making a lot of money but don't seem that happy with star players asking for big, guaranteed contracts. its nothing new but this was very corrupt move. now Al probably was o.k. with a cap but a free, open market with players getting big deals too. the NFL was very angry with him about that. No, these big salaries are not what we think, the owners don't want players making huge salaries.
Who needs a top LT!?: really?...we had a pro-bowl LT(J. Vehldeer) and Reggie got rid of him and they refused to let T B. Campbell stay. Miller is good, not great and has been injured. they should trade him and get a high draft pick and maybe they can find a young LT.
Crosby is awesome, making him a two down DL is bad, Raiders didn't rest Howie? Crosby is tall and lean and the Raiders are mediocre DL. his body type usually isn't made for a lot of punishment. You looked like you had a strong point except for that fact that Crosby is injured! because they play him too much?- we don't know but he's getting older and he's being paid to go after the QB. Howie was a little shorter and heavier and he was rotated in and out; Al brought in good D-linemen to give Howie rest. But Howie didn't rest a lot but he did get rested and also, line up all over the place.
You're looking to create problems for the Raiders.
Name one really great assistant coach that could help us out. Just one! Who are you replacing Patrick Graham with? Make sure he's a "star".
There's no comparing Kolton Miller and Jared Valdeer. That's silly. Miller is a top LT in the league. Why are you anxious to get rid of him? To spend a 1st rd pick unnecessarily so we can draft his replacement? Not having a LT creates a huge hole on offense.
I'm not "ASKING for Jim Harbaugh". Point to one time I said that.
Jim Harbaugh was with the Raiders for 2 short seasons as a QB coach. He didn't become HC of the 49ers until 8 seasons after he left the Raiders. You make it sound like Al Davis groomed him to be 49ers HC. It was 8 years later!
You clearly want to spend money you don't have, on so-called "star players" yet we don't know who will be available to the Raiders. You don't get to pick whoever you want. Raiders are competing with 31 other teams and are forced to compromise on college picks and free agents. Which makes getting rid of Kolton Miller even more perplexing.
If Crosby is "awesome" why do you want to sit him? You've said that before, and it didn't make sense then either.
..."tall and lean and not made for a lot of punishment..." Did you really type that? I don't know much but I can say this with confidence, Crosby isn't going to be a two-down player on any team in the NFL. If you believe any team would do that, I have a bridge to sell you.
AL Anon, you don't know wshit about the career of Howie Long. Howie at the age of Maxx was on the field every down. He was too damn good to come of the field. The Raiders had a very thin rotation in the early 80s it was Howie, Pickel, Lyle and Townsend. Even in later years Howie was out there all the time whether it was Sean Jones, Scott Davis, Golicm Chester, Russell or Harrison beside him. He played more snaps than anyone on the d line and over half of his career he played in a 3-4.
He was not shorter than Maxx he was 6'5 same as Maxx. Maxx is buil like Hendricks. Veldheer never made the Pro Bowler and Ny is right Miller is way better.
Sandy
Oh NY,
Top assistants?:
John Fassell: was one of the best special teams coaches in the NFL and Reggie fired him.
R. Bissicia: Gruden/ Mayock hired an outstanding special teams coach and that's why we have two pro bowl kickers like we did with Al!
S. Kelly: a very good RBs' coach.
R. Woodson: why mess with our secondary? as soon as Reggie took over his coaches started firing Al's guys. Woodson was a very good DB coach.
B. Musgrave: you guys claim he was a good OC but he got his start with Al.
W. Phillips: you guys thought he was a great DC.
No NFL team would rest Crosby?: Crosby is getting older and has a knee injury. L.V. actually don't use its' stars enough but Crosby is being over used. he plays the run and pass on every down but lately he's been injured and still plays. The Raiders refuse to bring in D-line stars so he has to keep playing but he gets injured. we can't say if that's why he's getting injured but I think he'd be able to pass rush better as a two down player.
Don't have money!? dude...wow! here it is! you just embarrassed yourself and other Anon! dude...the move to L.V., the new stadium, the money!- dude...the NFL said fans shouldn't complain because NFL teams need to have more money to spend on star free agents!
dude!....fans can see there is something corrupt and wrong with this system.
Can't you see they are lying or the system isn't working? they get wealthy and some of them refuse to pay big for star FA to help them win.
dude!!...you guys claim Al picked bad coaches so wouldn't Harbaugh be a bad pick as a HC? but he wasn't he made the 49ers eltie! maybe Al didn't "groom" him but he probably learned things from Al.
K. Miller might be better than J. Vehldeer but I know Vehldeer was a pro bowler for both the Raiders and Cardinals! when was Miller voted to the pro bowl more than once?
To Other Anon,
Al Anon-
Other Anon, Howie didn't play with D. Russell.
the Raiders had a thin DL?: It was('81-'93) Alzado, E. Franks, A. Smith, W. Jones, A. Wallace, Matuszak, C. McGlocktin, R. Vaughn, M. Wise, S. Jones, S. Davis, D. Browning, P. Koch, Townsend, P. Tomay, D. Stalls, M. Willis. These guys were mostly DEs', I didn't even put the DTs' down. the Raiders NEVER had a thin D-line rotation when Howie was playing.
Howie was always on the field?: You're right he almost was and I never said he wasn't but he was rested because the Raiders had other good players and he could rest. well, I know, all D-linemen get rest but Howie had some good back ups so he could rest more and he also was moved around a lot so he didn't just play DE. His body is different from Crosby's he was heavier and stockier so IMO...I think his body could take more punishment.
When the Raiders moved to a 3-4 it made Howie a DE mostly and it didn't hurt him but it made it harder for him to make big plays. A 3-4 for Crosby wouldn't be a good idea.
J. Vehldeer made the Pro Bowl twice- once with Oakland and once with the Cardinals.
Veldheer never made pro bowl send us a link proving it. Sandy
Bring back all the old guys. Maybe we could dust off Art Shell. Bring back the bed-and-breakfast crew.
This conversation is silly. The idea of bringing back Al's assistants because they were Al's assistants is insane. Hopefully, Mark Davis is smarter than that.
We're facing the Chiefs on x-mas day. And instead of folding like the Chargers, the Raiders are playing some of their best football in years, especially, on defense. That's what I'm thinking about.
To NY Raider and other Anon,
Al Anon-
Did Al's defenses become the worst in the NFL for years and then refuse to sign star free agents to help build a good defense?:
Did Al ruin his special teams units with terrible moves like getting rid of C-Bass and S. Lechler?
Bringing back Al's assistants is insane!?: ummmm.....did you really say that!? well then they might need to have the mental dept., pick some of us fans up and keep us for a few hours and maybe some fans need to take a longer look at their ideas before making posts:
you guys wanted:
J. Harbaugh Al's assistant
D. Shaws Al's intern
B. Mustgrave Al's assistant
J. Gruden Al's HC
other guys some fans wanted:
R. Bissicia- came from Dallas
J. Del Rio- fan of Raiders, but hired by NFL/ Reggie
the Pats' guys- hired by NFL/ owners you guys wanted them because they were some of the NFL's best assistants.
E. Bienemy- again a good assistant but inexperienced, without a leader like Al, J. Jones can he win as a HC
A. Pierce- Raiders need a star HC and he needs to show he can bring in the people who can build a winner.
W. Phillips- fans wanted him to bring the 3-4 as a DC.
W. Moss/ during Al's slump I read a few posts about wanting him to be DC.
You see Al's ex-assistants are some of the best in the NFL. You guys say Al didn't hire good coaches, did you mean just HCs'? these are the guys some fans keep asking for and they all were first hired by Al.
NY keep putting Al down but he and others want his bad assistants. you guys wanted some of these guys but you want to put down on the man who hired them. So, you can build a team and the players/ coaches are good-elite but you yourself aren't good enough to keep running the team you built?
As for Velhdeer, I admit I didn't see anything about the pro-bowl but I will take another look before I agree with you.
To other Anon and NY Raider,
Bed and Breakfast?:
Bresnahan's defenses were NEVER this bad and he was the DC at the SUPER BOWL!
So, like other coaches/ players over the 9 year slump he suddenly couldn't run a good defense?
How far in left field do you plan to go with this stuff? You can't give Al Davis credit for every coach he spent 30 seconds with. Musgrave was a QB coach for the Raiders in 1997 (might as well been 1897). He didn't come back and make a mark with the Raiders until 2015, well past Al's death.
You're right, I did want some of Al's assistants, back in the 1980's 1990's, and maybe early 2000's.
Bad is bad. You keep putting lipstick on a pig. With very little exception, the Raiders have sucked for 20 years, and never worse than the last nine years with Al Davis. That was the lowest period in Raiders history. It's not hyperbole. It's a fact. And 8+ years is not a slump.
Al fired and hired HCs almost every season. His records for nine seasons included...
1 season at 2-14
3 seasons at 4-12
3 seasons at 5-11
That's 7 out of 8 pathetic seasons which Al contributed to degrading his own brand.
You can pretend it was a great period in Raiders history, but you should stop trying to convince me of it. I was there and watched every game.
No, the lowest point in Raiders' history was:
1. moving to L.V., to move from a big market and play in a new stadium you don't own isn't smart.
2. to ruin almost every unit on a team you were supposed to be rebuilding and make the playoffs only twice and lose both and the first game was against a mediocre Texans' team.
3. to refuse to compete to win but bring in anybody but people who worked for Al.
the new Raiders from '12-present have done everything to embarrass themselves and Raidernation. the only thing they have are a few good draft picks and lots of promises they haven't delivered on and still have shown some resentment toward the Davis family.
Except Musgrave all of those assistants were on 1 team at least once over that 9 year slump meaning:
1. the team was very well managed and there is very little excuse for the way they played in '03-'05.
2. teams that are loaded with talent AND, have good assistants should win.
3. the team just lost over nine years and it had everything it need to win just can't anymore because one of the best GMs' in all of pro sports history can no longer make good decisions even though he did building the team?
A so-called fan wants to move on from the great past and wait for that great modern HC or top front office to build this team.
It was a few guys who built the Raiders and one who was its' leader. Letting the Patriots/ NFL tell you how football should work is o.k. but there are other systems to use.
Just how did we get to this point? we listened to the media putting down on our culture, stadium and Al. And we are still trying to figure out just how the new regimes didn't build that winning team we thought they were going to build. We want to win but we don't want to upset the NFL by asking why they aren't helping us win.
You have W and Ls' of an ELITE team(Al's Raiders) trying to win. You have rumors without any proof that a man who was a genius just suddenly got incompetent over a one year period and for the next 9 years but he is known as one of the winningest GMs' in pro sports history and just lost a super bowl.
I have a team(new Raiders) that promised from Day 1 it was a modern NFL system and it would turn us into a winning system in about 5 years. Well, it did win in it's fifth year but it was a mediocre team losing to maybe a worse team(Houston). I have a team that has fired 3 HCs' and hasn't yet found its' GM.
The Al Raiders had talent and good front office before and during the slump. Al was still a genius and I don't understand how ANY NFL GM could make so many BAD DECISIONS that to lose that much. No pro GM could do that not even an owner who couldn't get fired. And if a team that never won got hype and props for what it might do(new regimes) but hasn't tried its' best to win wouldn't that tell you that Al wasn't close to being the worst guy in Raiders' last 20 years if he was trying to win and the other regimes were bad and didn't try their best to win.
You said, "Except Musgrave all of those assistants were on 1 team at least once over that 9 year slump meaning:"
None of those guys coached for Al during that 9-year period except Jon Gruden and he was fired (via trade).
Jack Del Rio never coached for Al.
Rich Bisaccia never coached for Al.
I could keep going... but why bother.
Why do you keep posting stuff which you know is not true?
You keep adding 1 and 0 to get 10. It doesn't work that way.
I didn't say those guys coached for Al! look at the post and you'll see that I SEPARATED the coaches! you know Del Rio never worked for him. Maybe I didn't make myself clear! I gave you the Al assistants on one list and I gave you some of the guys that either worked for the "new" Raiders or that some fans wanted MD to hire.
I said the Al guys were at one time, except for B. Musgrave, working for Al on one team. I don't think I said anybody else was working for Al these other assistants were guys that Raiders hired or you guys wanted. Some are very good and other o.k. Now, Al's guys looked good and some were outstanding before they worked for the Raiders. But they were very good assistants and with a guy like Al they should've been helping us win.
You want to be like the Patriots, 49ers or Steelers and maybe some of these teams have a group of guys building them but the Raiders were built by a few guys who were leaders and knew football.
If you want to be like the NFL then fine understand they are about money, not much else! you made the claim- the Raiders were ruined by bad decisions, a dysfunctional GM and terrible players! you made the claim- Al's Raiders don't have modern scouts or game plans. you made the claim- Al hired bad coaches, didn't build a good team for them and blamed them for his incompetence!
you made the claim- Al ruined the Raiders by trading Gruden then, Gannon left and that shocked him so much he lost it.
You supported- not paying elite star FA's big money.
you supported- moving to L.V.
you supported- drafting guys to fit a system instead of star college players.
you supported- not using speed and size to help team win.
and we got embarrassed for it!!
1. moving to a new stadium but you don't own it!?- wasn't a smart move.
2. FOA....hiring inexperience HCs' then letting them hire their own assistants? that's what the NFL way is about?
3. not even offering stars big contracts? I thought guys would be knocking the door down to work for the new Raiders? no, I don't remember a lot of guys saying that they wanted to play for Reggie, Pats' guys. their cheap was aren't new, if you can get good cheaper players but when you pay one or two players big money but refuse to sign the elite stars but expect average-2nd level stars to win but you are still losing and refuse to try and play with the salary cap then you don't need to be bragging about your NFL way system and you need to try spending big more.
You said: "You want to be like the Patriots, 49ers or Steelers and maybe some of these teams have a group of guys building them but the Raiders were built by a few guys who were leaders and knew football."
I never said that, but now that you mention it, how many head coaches have the Steelers had over the past 20 years? One!
Patriots? One!
49ers? Shanahan will be entering his 8th year in 2024.
Raiders? 13 HCs since the SB!
You are misguided if you think that's in any way exceptional just because Al was running the show.
let me make two points!:
1. when I talk about the Raiders I'm talking about two teams- Al's era '60-'11 and the "new era" '12-present.
2. I can see there was not only bias but something very corrupt was happening and it wasn't Al.
* Oh, Pittsburgh and the Patriots have had only a few coaches?: how many Raiders' HCs' have super bowl rings? 3!
* the Steelers are a great franchise, iconic and they have one of the best front offices in pro sports history! they have a winning culture, a lot of HOFers and have been committed to their fans and the city of Pittsburgh. But the fact is:
both the Patriots(for the 3rd time) and Pittsburgh had to go through the Raiders in the playoffs.
* there also is a huge difference between 30 other(except Dallas) teams and the Raiders. the NFL treats the Raiders differently than Pittsburgh. when Raiders and NFL have issues sometimes the league would do things to get revenge/ control Al, this goes back to the 70s' well, the billionaires got into the mess, they have far more connections and power than the old owners, you want to blame Al but IMO...I saw some strange things that may've been done by powerful groups(NFL/ owners) to ruin Al. Because if a team can't win for 21 years and you know the NFL had issues and still has some problems with it after Al passed then ask yourselves this- you think the NFL would treat Pittsburgh the same as Al?:
do you think the NFL would let the Steelers move to L.V.?
do you think they'd have advisers giving terrible advise and not try to get them back to their past glory?
do you think they'd say all kinds of slights and negative comments about any of the Rooney's even during a bad slump and especially, if one of them were sick?
do you think they'd try to change their culture and get rid of all of coach Noll's, Tomlin's or Cower's era's/ ideas?
do you think they'd try to change how they draft or sign free agents? or have almost all of their staff fired?
do you really think that if the Rooney's stood up against the other owners and the NFL players backed them that they would try to intimidate them and tamper with them- or would they try to stay cool and get them to work with the other owners?
do you think the Steelers would over charge their fans knowing many would be priced out of going to the games?
* The Steelers are almost the same but have changed too. Their charge expensive ticket prices and like all teams, can't have tailgating in the parking lots.
But until Al passed the Raiders tried to stay loyal to us but fans like you want to be NFL guys. The new Raiders focus on money, investment and new stadiums and then they give us mediocrity and this is what you want to support?
Wow! you guys need to question some of your opinions- Al fired guys who weren't winning and no team EVER was treated as wrongly by a league as the Raiders have by the NFL!
NY Raider,
Raiders HCs' have two Super Bowl rings.
Wait! What? only "two Super Bowl rings"?
Last time I counted they had three!
You are incredibly misguided and misinformed.
You conflate Al's young assistant coaches with their successes long after they left the Raiders, while somehow connecting their success to Al. That's absurd. Jim Harbaugh is a perfect example.
Al hired inexpensive retreads and sometimes inexperienced coaches over which he had direct control. To be clear, not casual owner advice but direct control.
This is what caused the massive rift between Al Davis and Lane Kiffin. Apparently, Kiffin didn't get that memo.
Did you get that memo? Because your posts suggest you didn't.
NY Raider,
No I meant the same coach won two super bowl rings! I'm sorry NY that's on me! Madden and Flores won Super Bowls for the Raiders but it was only two coaches who won the super bowl Flores won two.
But dude!...these guys were all on one team maybe the '03 team, and if they were then wouldn't make you question the honesty of the NFL? what sense does it make to have an ELITE roster, outstanding assistants and a genius owner and not win at least eight games a year?
See, I didn't say anything for months while you talked about Al. The new Raiders lost to an ex-player coaching high school(Jeff Saturday) dude, Al lost to retread coaches with an outstanding roster and good coaches.
If a retread HC can't use talent then he has a problem is a lot of them can't something is very wrong!
Are you saying we've had a HC as good as Harbaugh? of course we did and it was Gruden who hired Gruden first?
Now NY, You say Al hired retreads/ inexperienced HCs' well name anybody else more qualified to lead those guys than him?
yea, its' o.k. to be inexperienced if you know there are people to help you. Reggie and coach Allen didn't have that.
What could Al teach coaches? why would they want to work for him, why would retreads/ inexperienced guys possibly get better with him?:
helped build the LACs' winning teams.
signed a lot of future HOFers in the AFL.
built the Raiders into one of the best franchises in all of pro sports.
HELPED create a style to help DBs' slow down receivers called the "Bump and Run" move for DBs(Pittsburgh CB Mel Blount might deserve credit for developing the style or made more popular).
coached in the AFL and coached some of the best players in AFL history.
was a HC, assistant, commissioner and GM.
* dude...you really believe a coach can't use advise from a guy like that? Stop it! you can pretend that groups build champions- maybe sometimes but its' usually one or a few guys that build them.
you say no good coaches wanted to work for him? well, they sure made the right decisions he could have helped a lot of them!
Go Raiders!
despite being in a huge argument over our past/ present we are still the best fans in the world!
did you know we've seen?- :
19 losing seasons
four new regimes
the fall of one of the best owners/ GMs' in the history of pro sports(Al Davis).
the Raiders move three times(Oakland to L.A., L.A. to Oakland and Oakland to Las Vegas).
our famous units- special teams, D-line and secondary become some of the worst in the NFL.
the team hire and fire almost 16 different HCs.
to see the Davis family being advised by outsiders and it might be ruining the team.
to be charged outrageous prices by a mediocre team that refuses to spend more to try and win.
to miss the playoffs and have to see K.C. and Denver making the playoffs.
to see a rebuild often and have to wait longer to see a winning culture.
to not see the team bring in some elite star free agents to at least see some play makers even if we don't win.
This is what we deal with as Raiders' fans but it hasn't made us quit on them. So, we should be happy that we are still Raidernation. And losing, mediocrity, the NFL and arguments hasn't made us quit on the Raiders! we have some really stubborn fans who support this system and we argue but we still are one nation! we still are part of Raidernation!
Go Raiders!
The memo on Kiffin
What Kiffin and Peyton missed out on!
Al signed many of the AFL's best players who became NFL HOFers.
Al was a HC in college and he also was a position coach there.
Al drafted 10 future HOFers(Biletnikoff, Shell, Upshaw, Long, Branch, Stabler, Allen, C-Wood, T. Brown and Casper).
he was a commissioner, HC, GM, scout and owner.
he helped bring the MODERN passing game to the NFL(Sid Gillman and others helped bring the passing game to the NFL too).
No, nobody would want to work with a guy like that. No, you need to work for the Spanos, Bidwells or Browns(Bengals) or one of the billionaires' teams. Yea, Kiffin couldn't've learned anything from Al he was so lucky to get fired and go to a college team.
Coach Peyton, Gruden II, Reggie, Harbaugh, the Pat's guys, Norton Jr., B. Arians and Dan Quinn were some of the guys you guys wanted- no, none of them could learn anything from Al because he was senile and dysfunctional. Yea right NY, its' better to be with owners and front offices in 31 other cities than to learn from a legend? they really didn't miss anything not working for Al and 31 other cities were better places to work and learn from than Al's team?
What is the purpose of this? You continue to refer to me in second person with false statements. Why?
The Raiders last won a SB 40 years ago. Since then, they have been mostly irrelevant.
Put it this way, it's been so long since they won a SB, you lost count.
In 2010, Raiders smashed the Donks 59-10. At the time, it was the most points Raiders had ever scored. Head coach was Tom Cable. Qb was Jason Campbell. Ultimately, it would prove to be meaningless, as Raiders would miss playoffs until 2016, but Donks would win SB the next season.
Point is, 63 against the Dolts is great, but only meaningful if Raiders follow up with more success. This week will be harder, on the road against the Chefs, albeit a very beatable team.
AP has been very up and down so far. His ups have been spectacular, his downs have been unsightly.
I believe this will be the make or break game for AP. A strong showing by the Raiders, and he probably will be retained as HC.
I agree.
But in fairness, Antonio Pierce has outperformed the system and personnel assembled by Josh McDaniels and Dave Zeigler, which he inherited mid-season. AP is a true fan of the Raiders and their history. He can be intense as coach and wants to build a bully, which should make all Raiders faithful happy to hear. The locker room is behind him and players like Crosby have gone out of their way to endorse him.
So this is much bigger than wins and losses right now. Intensity is incredibly high for a team that is all but eliminated.
Mr. Irrelevant?:
B. Purdy is kicking ass as a Mr. Irrelevant I see we like to support our Raiders' rookie QBs' but we haven't had the kind of success that the 49ers got with him. I posted this to tell you that sometimes being irrelevant can be a good thing.
So you can't find ANYTHING to brag about since '83? Is the SB the standard for NFL teams? is that what you're saying? that there's nothing else to judge a team/ person with other than going to the SB?
FOA...then you already have made a bad point! the Raiders were AFC Champions when they allegedly fell behind 31 other teams and went into a 9 year slump.
So what things can we give Al credit for or positives can we credit the Raiders with over the past 40 years('83-'23)?
Is there anything over the past 40 years that are positive or sets a standard with the Raiders since the Super Bowl?:
Al helped the NFL players fight the new CBA in the '10s despite trying to fix a slump.
Howie, C. Branch and H. Long went to the HOF after playing during that period('83-'23).
Al helped start "franchise free agency" that helped team owners get the best deals for new stadiums from their/ new cities.
the Raiders still held the title of winningest team in pro sports until the early 90s'.
ex-Raiders J. Madden and G. Upshaw were very powerful men. Madden helped make video games popular and Upshaw ran the NFLPA- the players' union.
Al hired a Latino HC and won a Super Bowl with him('83). I'm only starting at '83-'23.
the Raiders were the first team to move from a city then move back during the 90s'.
allegedly helped get the NFL those t.v. money deals in the 80s'(Browns owner Art Model is credited with actually doing it).
tried to get owners to fight the NFL's new rule that made owners making big business deals to share the revenue with the league.
hired an Afro-American HC, the second in NFL history.
he paid for the medical bills of players and media enemies/ friends.
Wow! what a loser! who would want to be a fan of a team like that! No, we can't be satisfied or happy with that kind of history we got to have more SB wins! that's all that matters! we got to be like the 49ers, Patriots, Steelers or Eagles and we can't be unique we have to be a model franchise and copy them, not their winning but how they work. We want to be like them but we can't bring in expensive star players or hire elite assistants! So, we can't be happy with our history we got to have more super bowls or be more like the 'NFL way'.
* Raiders should've outright won that division with Cable and J. Campbell they had an outstanding team. why didn't they?-- bad decisions? Al messing things up and terrible draft picks and vets? and bad attitude players?
I think it was more than that!
To NY Raider and other Anon,
T. Hendricks, M. Allen and R. Guy also went to the HOF after retiring from football('03-'23).
Dude...the Raiders were irrelevant? you really need to look at Raiders' history, and take some time to think about what you're saying before you post because sometimes you can really look like you're confused or getting too much NFL hater info before you post!
Al Anon, we are definitely not talking about the same team.
After Tom Flores left, and aside from Gruden as HC, the only double-digit win seasons since 1983 were two under Art Shell and one under Jack Del Rio. Hello! That's awful on steriods.
Al fired every coach he hired. There were no survivors. How you try and spin that into success is absolutely amazing to me.
Art Shell was a great Raider Player, and he had a decent year or two as HC, but he's the best of the rest. Guys like Bugel, White, Callahan, Turner, Cable, Kiffin, etc. were all bums. Al couldn't fire them fast enough. So please stop telling me how great they were.
Even Al Davis disagrees with your assessments.
Raiders are in a stretch lasting two decades or longer which no other team has more losing seasons. Again, how you spin that to success is a bar too low for me.
I don't think Tom Flores wants to coach the Raiders again, but you can ask him.
BETWEEN '03 and '23 that's 40 YEARS right!? you claim the Raiders were MOSTLY IRRELEVANT!!
coach Flores won 2 super bowls but we are starting at 1983 not 1980! if that's the case he has one super bowl win and he was the first Latino HC hired and it was Al that did it!
That's what I posted! dude...stop trying to be a historian and get your facts straight!!
NO AFC team was able to beat the Bills not even the Raiders and Steelers only the Broncos even came close to challenging them. The Raiders were truly reloading about that time except for a few playoff games in the 90s'. So don't go attacking Al when the whole AFC couldn't beat the Bills who unlike the new Raiders got every star player they could to win!
Del Rio was with the new Raiders a team that doesn't spend big on FAs' and wants to be an NFL team. If Del Rio DID have Al as mentor he'd had a very good roster.
You keep trying to prove if you get a group of guys/ people you can build a winning team the NFL way. Fine, I think you can too but I say many great teams were built by a few guys, not a group; that there are geniuses/ leaders who know how to build or get good advise to build a winner.
That's why I separate Al's era from the new regimes'. The Al/ old Raiders' culture was pushed aside for new regimes
refused to use ANYBODY(front office) connected to Al.
got rid of every player and coach over a two to three year period.
replaced every idea no matter how successful or terrible that Al used.
they have moved on from the ideas' and commitments Al had:
Commitment to Excellence
loyalty to the fan base
Just Win Baby
they even IMO...have made AFC West rivalries IRRELEVANT when was the last time they tried to build a team to at least win the division?
Al lost for 9 years after being a winner for three!
the new regime won two playoff games and have been mediocre for about 8 years and refuse to do much to change their program. Don't make it 21 years the new Raiders are an NFL team and don't have much to do with Al's era. they don't want to be and AFL, rebel and focus on winning, connect with the fan base or claim the past! they want to be a different team! and this is why they can screw us because we still think they did all of this money and new stadium schemes for us! they show us they don't care for us but we think they are trying to make the Raiders a winner for us! well, they've advised us and we need another new regime?
* Yea NY! stop your silliness! you really should try and slow yourself down you need
To NY Raider,
I was saying that the Raiders weren't the only AFC team that had a tough time winning in the 90s' mainly because of the Bills.
K.C. and Denver were the only AFC teams that could really challenge them and the Raiders could in the early 90s'.
No, the Raiders weren't irrelevant in any decade that Al ran the team! unless you still think winning the SB is the only thing that matters! he was still making pro sports better and trying to win.
I want to let you know I am saying the new Raiders are 'NFL way' they aren't the Raiders and don't want ANYTHING to do with Al's era!
You sometimes have good or right points but you also seem to want to move on from our past for some program that isn't even trying to pretend they care about Al's history. Also, I will try to be more clearer and give you and idea of what I'm saying and get my facts/ opinions and get my facts straight when I make a point too.
When you try to attack a teams' history you really should try to look at your own opinions and then the facts before posting!
You better get your abacus back out if you're counting 1983, because that's 41 years.
Quit while you're still standing. Nothing I said is false. You can't change the Raiders record. Lots of holes in your theories.
there are many teams who were far better than their records showed.
Just like there are winners and we can't take that away from them, that were mediocre or less talented that either got huge breaks and took advantage of them to beat better team or had great game plans. Now with PARITY it isn't a surprise if mediocrity upsets a good team.
the Raiders '03-'11 was one of the teams that were far better than their records showed.
the Raiders didn't win another super bowl but they've had far more success and done some great things for the NFL over the past 40 years.
My Abacus would show a team dealing with a changing league(90s') that had to do a lot just to look like they wanted real PARITY. You can't criticize Al and not talk about most of the AFC they didn't win a lot of super bowls after the Raiders did they? Yea NY! what's up with that? Buffalo, K.C. and Denver did o.k. but they couldn't beat the Bills. Because they did well after the '83 super bowl, winning and doing things for themselves/ NFL but you want to try and make them losers that didn't do anything RELEVANT after '83!
It wasn't a great decade in the 90s' but they had winning seasons. And in early Y2ks' they dominated the AFC West and they looked and acted like a winner.
But then strange things happened and they became the strangest losers in that decade. Never showing us how they got so bad but just losing. But IMO...they weren't close to being what their record said they were.
And I know they were a good team and Al was still a genius and in a PARITY league no team loses for 9 years and nobody can really explain why. No, records in the Y2k decades don't tell us how good or bad a team really is like in the past.
The '03-'11 Raiders are a product of horrible decision-making and bad coaching hires. There might be no worse period in the Raiders history than that.
Al Davis fired every coach he hired in that period. The only coach who stepped up was prior to that period, Jon Gruden, and Al fired him via trade.
It's as if Al sabotaged the Raiders with the decision to trade Gruden, then sabotaged them again upon his death by not adequately preparing his son Mark to take over the franchise.
Your perception of those happenings falls short of reasonable thinking.
You blame parity, NFL, media, other owners, etc., and refuse to hold the Raiders accountable.
Al took the winningest franchise in all of sports (which he coached, managed and owned to perfection for many years) and turned them into the losingest franchise in the NFL for the latter part of his career/life).
We all have to live with that... while you deflect to excuses and conspiracies.
Very puzzling.
To Raider Take,
A lot of people want to put down on Al's era and a lot want to say the new ones are that bad but I think there was something strange that was causing problems in Al's camp and that helped them lose. I just don't think Al ruined the Raiders and I wanted to look at some of the claims fans/ media said about different things and try to see if those claims are true:
Al didn't know how to find good and Carr was the best QB- QBs?: Carson Palmer is the best QB over 21 years with Carr a close second. I would've made Carr no. #1 but Palmer was a franchise QB who some fans wanted to criticize and give names to(pick 6 Palmer). But he was our best QB and strangely wasn't able to get us to the playoffs. Other good QBs' were J. Campbell and B. Gradkowski.
* Jamarcus the biggest bust in NFL history?: He was a bust but not close to being the biggest QB bust in NFL history! no he was drafted by Al that's why they say that.
Drafting C. Johnson(Lions) might've been a better move but I think Jamarcus was drafted into a very bad situation that wasn't Al's fault and like many stars wouldnt've been able to help the team win. 'Megaton' was a star but I don't think he'd helped much- BTW...did he make the Lions a playoff contender while there?
Jamarcus wasn't even the biggest QB bust in AFC West history much less NFL history.
* the new Raiders are modern and will build a winner, Al lost it and we now have a better team: so you want to move on from Al's era? O.K. he can't do anything for us now but he had some very good years as a scout, coach and GM so he might had some good ideas the team can use.
your NFL/ 'Patriot way' is mediocre and it hasn't worked for us. it might not be at fault but maybe we should try some other great team's/ legend's ideas but maybe some of Al's too:
instead of just drafting high character, average guys why not add some speed and athleticism too.
Al may've moved the Raiders too but he cared about Raidernation- the team should lower ticket prices by about 15% and help fans get discounts for hotel and travel expenses.
spend more, maybe Al did spend too much on star but he was trying to win. the Raiders refuse to do it and they have a lot of money now. they need to try and find some stars in free agency.
* Raidernation thinks Al ruined the team by being controlling, 'meddling' with his front office and worse making bad decisions in the draft and coaching:
o.k. so fans believe the Raiders were a bad team('03-'11)?
fact- the Raiders in '03 lost QB R. Gannon but they had J. Rice, T. Brown, R. Woodson, and C-Wood- four future HOFers! now, just using common sense how can a roster that talented lost over 8 games in a season? what other team had four future HOFers still playing well and could lose like that?
What bad draft choices caused the team to go in a 9 year slump? I know that a couple of those guys were called elite(Nnamdi) I mean, when did Al put a lot of rookies in games anyway? o.k. there was Jamarcus and some fans feel most of the DBs' sucked I don't think so but I can't prove it. I didn't see any rookie(s) who helped ruin this teams future. Al whiffed sometimes but was he as bad as some other mediocre teams and were they so bad Al couldn't fix the problems?
* modern ideas, Al allegedly didn't have the computers and other things scouts/ personnel offices use. well, is tech and all kinds of training supposed to make successful front offices? Dallas proves it can but if Al wants to use his gut why put it down? think the old Raiders didn't have some tech? if they didn't well why didn't his scouts just ask him for some it? and has tech helped the new Raiders find star college players?
Well Take, do you still think the Al Raiders were really the reason we are losing today?
.
Al had a losing formula that he couldn't escape during a period which he clearly needed to try something else.
Two mainstays in his losing formula were drafting athletic players and picking second tier coaches.
Al Anon, you said it yourself. Al coveted athleticism. He put Combine specimens over football acumen. That's why he drafted JaMarcus Russell. There was no "bad situation" that caused Russell to fail. Russell had the measurements, so they drafted him for being big and athletic (and despite his minimal experience).
Another part of Al's losing formula was hiring second tier (maybe 3rd tier) head coaches who would allow Al to control not just scheme (play calling) but also assistants.
Any head coach entering the Raiders org had his assistant coaches picked for him, and some of those assistants would report directly to Al, sometimes undermining the chain of command in the process. This was never more destructive than during the years after Jon Gruden was traded, with HCs like Kiffin, Cable and Jackson. Remember, Jackson was brought in by Al during Cable's stint as HC to undermine Cable's desire to call his own plays. Guys like Norv Turner and Art Shell were Al's underlings.
Many years (maybe decades) earlier, this was a winning formula for Davis, but time caught up with Al and the formula continued to fail for years (decades!). It wasn't a slump, it was his way of doing business.
Al hired Gruden to be part of that formula, but when Gruden had success and became the face of the team, Al fired him via trade. There is no reasonable explanation for trading Gruden at that time. He was on a roll and represented the Raiders best chance in literally decades to win another Super Bowl. Again, there's no reasonable explanation for Al to have traded Gruden at the peak of his coaching career.
If you can't see truth in any of this, then you clearly don't know Al Davis and the Raiders as well as you think.
It's a tough pill to swallow, but Al wasn't always a superhero. He had human flaws too.
NY, for sure Al should have kept Jon Gruden but I also think John wanted out a little bit as well. Sandy
K.C. legends vs. Raiders' super team
P. Mahomes
M. Allen
T. Richardson
T. Gonzales
T. Hill
O. Taylor
J. Alt
W. Shields
J. Rudnay
B. Waters
J. Tyrer
Y. Stenarud
D. Hall(KR)
H. Long
J. Ball
B. Pickell
L. Alzado
R. Martin
M. Millen
B. Rominowski
M. Haynes
C-Wood
R. Lott
D. Fulcher
R. Guy
J.L. Higgins(PR)
N. Smith
D. Saleamua(3-4 NG)
J. Mays
D. Thomas(3-4 OLB)
W. Lanier
G. Spani
D. Johnson
A. Lewis
E. Thomas
E. Berry
J. Robinson
K. Ross
J. Wilson(P)
A. Hayes(KR)
K. Stabler
B. Jackson
H. Dixon
D. Casper
J. Rice
F. Biletnikoff
B. Sims
G. Upshaw
B. Robbins
K. Gogan
B. Brown
C-Bass(K)
N. Colze(KR)
NY you are right about the Gruden subject its' hard to defend that. There wasn't a reasonable reason to trade him away.
And you say he then hired mediocre/ 2nd tier HC's. But the other side of that was the Y2k-'10 was a time when the media/ NFL claimed game manager HCs' and QBs' could win. Now, if they were on a team with average talent then you could say a team might lose without a top HC but if you are loaded with talent and top front office and a genius like Al you should be able to win more without Gruden.
Add to the fact that Al NEVER allowed any loss of HC to stop him from TRYING to win!
You made a point but one thing in his coach's side was according to you- he made the decisions so we can't say how bad or good they really were. But I don't think Al was as paranoid and jealous as you say- if coaches bought new ideas I don't think he'd be too quick to stop them from using them.
you say 31 other teams were smart enough to hire modern thinking front offices. well, some teams hired these ex-OC types from colleges/ NFL and they created all kinds of new offenses. some are good HCs' but a lot of them have been fired with the NFL defenses and other things teams need they weren't good at handling.
I don't think Al was left in the past and he did have modern ideas. I think he let his staff use their ideas, there is the 'meddling' rumors but I don't think he was messing up game plans, I won't deny that can upset a staff and even though he was a HC and a good one I won't make it seem like that was o.k.
but I do say your point on Gruden was a good one. I don think that this team and a guy that experienced wouldn't let him or Gannon ruin him trying to win again- the roster was way too talented and it was a time of game managers so the Raiders should've been winning back thin without Gannon/ Gruden.
BTW...maybe we had 2nd tier HCs' but N. Turner showed he was one of the best by leading the Chargers to dominating the AFC West for a few years. I wouldn't call somebody that kicked our asses for years a bad HC. that should also tell you something Al made mistakes but not enough to ruin the team for 9 years and unless the Raiders fell far below 31 other teams and maybe USFL teams PARITY should've helped them stay a top team if they had average HCs' but a very good roster and assistant coaches and a genius.
I find it interesting that someone who knows so much about the Raiders doesn't know Davis had direct involvement in all aspects of the team, including game planning and game personnel. Everyone in football and-or watching football knew that about Davis. You do know he benched Marcus Allen for no good reason, right?
Read Marcus Allen's book. You will learn a lot from a reliable firsthand source.
Btw, why do you feel the need to measure everyone's talent outside their employment with the Raiders?
Norv Turner went 5–11 in 2004, followed by a 4–12 record in 2005, and was fired immediately after the 2005 season. That's his history with the Raiders. It sucked!
You claimed that one of Al's second tier HCs' wasn't a good HC. well, I think you need to look at N. Turner's career in S.D.! again, you make i
the Raiders were overloaded with talent and there was no reason for a nine year slump.
let me put it this way- it wasn't that the Raiders were all that good its' that most NFL teams except for S.F., Sea, Dall, Car., NYG, Indy, Balt, N.E. and G.B. were much better or they could coach up their mediocre teams. the Raiders' roster was awesome over that 9 year period! and except for most of those teams above were better talent wise, than most other teams. sure, some talented teams don't win but they win a little bit more because of it.
what sense does saying in a PARITY system its' "ANY Given Sunday" except for a team that has the front office and talent? some of those teams that somehow won NEVER had a Gruden, Gannon or GM like Al. the media said they were the worst team in football a short time after the SB loss, the players to the front office and you say it was Al and you have the losing to back your claim but how can 31 other teams have a chance to win/ upset top teams- except one team?
trading Gruden and mistreating Allen was wrong but not enough to stop Al from trying to win.
both of us made the same point but gave a different reason. heck yes, coach Turner, Kiffin and Jamarcus all failed in Oakland! but Turner succeeded after leaving!
I don't think any super star, elite HC or player was going to succeed in Oakland. because the powers that be said 'NO'!
you've been right all along about nobody was going to help the team win because something outside of the team was causing problems.
you think SOMEBODY telling guys not to work for Al was some kind of favor to them and not a conspiracy to ruin the team? did you ever hear of anybody in pro sports telling guys not to work for a team? dude if they did that what do you think they were doing to tamper with the Raiders?
You don't get it.
It's not a coincidence so many coaches and players had success outside of the Raiders org but little or no success during their time with the Raiders.
Norv Turner had some success after he left the Raiders, but not because of Davis. Look at Mike Shanahan. Davis hired him and couldn't fire him fast enough. Why do think that is? Shanahan won back-to-back Super Bowls for Denver two short years after Davis fired him. You said Al had an eye for talent. Then why did he fire Mike Shanahan?
The simple truth (not a conspiracy!), some guys just couldn't work under a heavy-handed owner, which Al Davis clearly was. Again, if you don't know that, you don't know or understand who Al Davis was.
Taking his ego to another level, Davis sabotaged his own team, once by benching Marcus Allen and another time by trading Jon Gruden. These two guys were true and loyal Raiders at the peaks of their careers but they captured too much of Al's limelight, so he got rid of them.
The NFL didn't hire and fire all Al's coaches, nor did they block him from hiring HCs of his choice. Your assertion that the Raiders failed because of workings outside their organization is absolutely absurd.
Did you ever hear the term "cone of silence" used in reference to the Raiders? Nobody outside the org ever knew what Al was up to. That was always the mystic of the Raiders.
Your conspiracies have no foundation. Al Davis had complete control of the team and the organization, and that's at least partly why they failed for so many years.
In baseball, a slump is like 20 at-bats.
In your world, a slump is nine years of abject failure.
To NY Raider,
Al Anon-
Wow! outside?
J. Harbaugh learned NOTHING from Al?
did Gruden REALLY have success outside of the Raiders?
D. Shaw didn't take anything from Al to Stanford U.?
N. Turner was with a much better team in San Diego? no way he could've done that in Oakland?
L. Kiffin was mistreated and Al ruined the relationship? he's a good college HC- one of the best OCs' in college football and it was great to be out of the Raiders' org in a league with a lot of young HCs'-the one team were one can't succeed was Oakland?
* Shanahan did something that even coach Callighan didn't do...he messed with Al's staff.
the story: Shanahan was given some power even though Al was sad to see assistants get fired he thought Shanahan could build a winner. The 1st problems started when Broncos' assistants were hired and agitated Al's old guys. There were some issues and eventually some fist fights. But Al thought Broncos' guys could bring new ideas to Raiders.
You say Al 'meddled' he didn't with the Broncos' guys believe it or not- he even sat by while they remade the defense. they went to a 3-4 defense- G. Townsend became an OLB. this made Howie a 3-4 DE, and very hard to move all over the line.
At first Al didn't do anything and some things actually worked. Townsend lagged on the sacks but showed his talents- he started intercepting passes; he even did 2 pick sixes on J. Elway during Shanahan's time there.
But complaints by players and the problems between Al's old assistants and coach Shanahan's made Al angry and he fired him. You're right, coach Shanahan was a great OC and later a HC. But his staff was causing a lot of bad blood. It wasn't Al being controlling or the Broncos' guys messing up, it was disagreements about the 3-4 and the treatment of Al's remaining staff. These were 2 geniuses that could've built a winner but the Broncos' guys upset Al's old employees. Some NFL people say that character/ other things are as important as winning sometimes- well, Al decided to back his old staff and that's why coach Shanahan was fired.
Shanahan had a lot of success because he was a genius OC/ good HC. but Al had success after Shanahan and he didn't fall into pieces after he left.
Marcus?- you're right! can't defend that!
Gruden?- hard to understand that but I will say Al NEVER let losing a HC keep him from trying to win.
* The NFL DID fire Al's last staff through the NFL DID!...TELL guys not to work for Al! and other Anon even admits it! they used Reggie and others to do it.
See, you might think I'm accusing the NFL of going after Al and maybe telling new owners about him. But the fact was Al was upsetting the NFL/ owners and sponsors.
1. voting against the new CBA to have a salary cap that would save teams millions of dollars.
2. suing the league/ cities and this time about things the league was trying to keep quiet.
3. working with NFLPA owner G. Upshaw who was trying to help the players make more money and get more benefits.
Oh no NY, they were angry with Al and it was about making/ saving money, revenue sharing rules, sponsor investment, law suits, salary cap rules(CBA) and player benefits.
NY! don't you see some of these billionaire owners thought it was going to be easy- just buy a team and fans will love them. But there was Al and Upshaw; the NFL probably told them about Al and they were angry after he started running over them like the old owners.
But Al didn't understand the power of these new owners, they have power and connections and after seeing Al doing his thing against the NFL(law suits, voting against them)they took action.
No, it was bad decisions that ruined team and 31 other teams found smarter coaches that left us in the past? Wow! I didn't know things could be explained that easily!
Howie Long played in a 3-4, 7 out of the 11 years he was in the league. During the two years Shanahan was coach Townsend had double-digit sacks both years and only one interception. One of the years Shanahan was coached Howie injured and only played five games. Sandy
Don't drink and drive! stay in your/ relative's home or club until you are sober.
Its' flu season so you should make sure you are prepared before going outside. Get your medications and vitamins. Get your foods and beverages that take care of colds and the flu! water, teas, sodas and soups!
If you are having money issues don't be too proud to go to the food bank to get help.
* To Raider Take,
So we're better without Al? what if he'd never came to Oakland, would you be a fan of the team?:
Al with Colts/Al was scout and they were that close to having 2-5 super bowl trophies. FOA...Al wouldn't have got the Colts from the Irsay's or Rosenbloom's(I think it was him) but he'd been made GM/ HC. they would've had some of the best players in NFL history and more HOFers' than they already do and the Colts would've had more super bowl trophies.
Al with LACs'/ Wow! Again, the Chargers' owners wouldn't let Al become owner of the team. he really worked for them and if they had offered Al the GM job or a stake in the team there might not be a Raidernation or a lot of Raider HOFers! and the Raiders might be fodder for the Chargers and K.C. and the Chargers would have some super bowl trophies! Yuk! the Chargernation?
so Al's last HCs were that bad? but the "new era's" HCs are better? so what if Al's HCs ran the new regimes and Al ran theirs? you claim Al's last HCs' sucked but I don't understand that since the NFL/ media claimed all you need now(early Y2k) was game manager HCs' and QBs?:
T. Turner, L. Kiffin or H. Jackson with Reggies' guys:
they're OC types so they'd try to use the talent there- M. Crabtree, DMAC and D. Carr. the team would've won a few more games but with that defense it would've been 6-10 to 8-8 seasons. I do think they'd score a lot more than they did under coaches Allen and Del Rio and they'd try to bring in star defenders but the D just wouldn't keep them in the playoff hunt.
with Gruden's guys: playoffs! those guys would use- J. Jacobs, A. Cooper and D. Waller to win. But if Gruden was like the GM and Mayock the assistant and they traded away all the stars I think the HCs' would've asked for some big time drafting. I think they'd make the playoffs with those HCs'. They could call plays and Gruden/ Mayock would find star defensive players to keep them in games and help them make the playoffs.
with the Pats' guys: this seems to be a good group of HCs- Hue, Kiffin or Turner as HCs and McDaniels and Zeigler as GMs'. well, the story is that the GMs' still got rid of D. Carr/ others. So the HCs' would ask for more spending/ trading for star players. and a lot of scrambling to keep and get more star players and there would be a lot of asking and arguing over defensive stars. the team would be good but without defensive players and the GMs' not really wanting to spend they would be contenders but probably 7-9 to 8-8 team.
the new regime HC's(Gruden II, J. Del Rio, J. McDaniels and D. Allen) running Al's rosters('03-'11)?:
Well, they'd have a lot of talent and a genius to help them. you claim these guys are better HCs' than the '2nd tier' HC's Al found.
I think with Al, these "new era" HCs would do o.k. but our arguments wouldn't be solved easily. Fans will blame Al if the "new era" HCs fail and Al supporters will say it was "new era" HCs', not Al's rosters caused team to lose.
I think Gruden/ Mayock and McDaniels/ Zeigler would win being able to coach/ make some moves but Al building team. J. Del Rio is o.k. and is a discipline type HC. he'd win but might need a few years; D. Allen might take awhile to win and he might need to give Al time to build a good team but it might be awhile.
To other Anon,
Howie played 13 years(really 12) so that's 7 out of 12 years- but you won the argument!
I thought the Raiders only used the 3-4 around 3 to 4 times since Howie was drafted and 2 of those times was under coach Shanahan.
As for Townsend I didn't know he had double digit sacks as an OLB with Shanahan! Wow! but I do remember he picked six Elway twice over a two year period maybe not but I thought I saw him get him twice, both in L.A. You won the argument again!
Oh yea, that was a big time front office but you have to understand it was about friends/ old Raider assistants not Al being jealous or paranoid with the Broncos' guys. No, it was a decision were Al stood up with old friends/ employees. Some say it was stupid and dysfunction. Others say it showed loyalty and like a high character guy might do instead of putting success ahead of loyalty you know like when coaches refuse to sign a super star and keep average guys instead because they work hard and don't cause problems? yea, that's what media said we didn't have until Reggie came a guy who'll get rid of lazy, overpaid and problem guys and keep average guys just because they'll work hard, not complain and work in a system. So, if Al fired an elite HC but he was causing trouble why do some of us call that stupid or paranoid-mean old man moves?
He saw the genius in Shanahan and he let him bring in his assistants and it could've been something special and yes, everybody knew how talented coach Shanahan was and the 49ers hired him.
But Al is a genius himself and if he DID hire second tier HCs' he knew they might be o.k. if they had more talent to use. they might be better than we thought and if they can use the talent Al got them they might win.
Al’s Dead…. The past is the past and in sport team terms has no bearing on its future, on death Al figuratively sold his team/ our team…to a significantly different owner in an era where the game is played differently. What bearing does the hiring and firing of Norv or Joe Bugel or Mike White or the the resurrection or Art 2.0 have on if we beat the Chief tomorrow or if it’s decided to Keep AP as coach for another year or even if we go QB in the draft. If you spend too much time looking in the rear view mirror whilst driving you’re gonna wreak ur car. I respect the history of this team and all who were part of playing for this team, but there are bigger fish to fry and I for one hope the Raiders kick the snot out of the Chiefs.
Cheers,
Topher
To Aussie Raider,
Ummm....dude! every pro sports team remembers its' legends! some use some of their ideas! what they don't do is pretend that they've moved so far into the future that they can't use any of their ideas!
you want to move on into the future but you do
Al passed away in '11 but what about his team? a new owner and different game
K.C.: big, faster and athletic they don't need to be physical because they are so much faster and bigger than us! they didn't go along with the NFL/ Patriots' way' football and will go after size and speed. media claimed that was an old school way of building a team and the smarter, well coached/ prepared Bellichick system was much better. Well all these team have looked very good over the past ten years if they couldn't win they at least looked competitive and stayed in the playoff race until being eliminated late in the season.
you say old systems can't work in the NFL? these teams are copying Al's ideas:
49ers: used to happy with getting guys for their system, the "West Coast" with a few athletes but now! they go after size and speed!
Cowboys: haven't changed in over 50 years! they love star players.
what bearing?: we are fans because we HAD a winning culture and something to be loyal to. if you have a terrible past or great one at least you have something to compare for
who Al was, what the Pats guys and Reggie did has a huge bearing on the future! we have a winning and terrible past and a fan can decide to support or quit on a new regime and we might be able to tell them if they might be doing something wrong or very good through the media and e-mails but we know what worked and failed and we can tell the team in media to do better. the media keeps telling us we are getting the best front office but give them time then they keep selling us the look at the money and the stadium and how much we now have and how good the new regime is and how much longer we need to wait! we listen but don't ask for something to show they are making any changes! we want to move on but we are supporting mediocrity and the future is being sold to us as a future winning team but we haven't seen anything to show that's working.
* Now, if the new era NFL is copying Bellichick and going after high character, passionate, smart guys with maybe a few star athletes then maybe we should look harder at the Patriot way they stole top athletes from the Raiders and got some star athletes in free agency to go with their system players. so if Al's ideas are in the past but your future teams look mediocre and continue to make the same mistakes and tell us we're in a better situation than with Al I would say we're being very silly and need to stop and take a long look and think about out loyalty and just what are we supporting.
Jones/ panty…. Not sure which you are, what players did NE steal from the Raiders? The Raiders have a long history of trading with them going back to at least Mike Haynes, no stealing from us on that one
Making AP interm coach is a step away from the status quo… He is a defensive minded coach that recognises the raider identity that needs to be brought back, not to be confused with the old offensive play book. We need the mind set and swagger you don’t get that from a play book.
I appreciate your passion and longing for a winner like all of us that have graced takes blog, and I am not trying to pick a fight or anything like that, here is to hoping we leave this season on a solid note
RRRRAAAIIIDDDEEERRRSSS,
cheers
All right Aussie! lets see who knows his history! FOA...not trying to get into an argument with you! You are a fan and you just feel its' time to think of the future!
that's o.k. but I just wanted to let you know that its' our future that looks very uncertain.
why? because the NFL that you support wants big changes and put us in the worst situation in the NFL! with a lot of money schemes by the NFL for the SB but no real control or actions unless the NFL approves it!
when I said the Pats have stolen players from the Raiders- yes they have! there is evidence that they got over on us whether it was our incompetence or some NFL scheme they've robbed us of stars and draft picks for years. But Al also won with some of the Patriots stars too.
lets look at the relationship with the Patriots and Raiders!:
Al's Patriots:
Shelby Jordan OT
Mike Hanyes CB(pro bowler)
Don Hasselbeck TE
Randy Holloway OT
Dwight Wheeler OL
Jim Plunkett QB(pro bowler)
Rich Gannon QB(pro bowler)
Tyrone Poole CB
John Condo LS/ LB(pro bowler)
Pat Harlow
R. Seymore(pro-bowler)
Rich Camarilo P
Bobby Hamilton DL
Mike Hawkins LB
Patriots' Silver Ball'ers:
R. Moss WR(pro bowler) stolen-/ how could the Raiders NOT get a higher draft pick with an elite WR? why trade with the Pats at all if they weren't offering a good trade?
D. Gabriel WR stolen/ another strange trade by Al. the Raiders, not really having star WRs' trade him to the Pats.
Ferric Collons DL
R. Gallery OT
A. Brown WR(stolen)/ when the Raiders released him he should've been suspended but the league didn't do anything and once again the Patriots sign another ex-Raider star WR. he never played in a game for Oakland and, the Raiders didn't pay the full contract but they gave up draft picks to the Steelers and saw Brown win with the Patriots.
A. Walter QB
Ricky Brown LB
M. Van Eagan FB
Sterling Moore CB
James McAlister RB
D. Browning DE
D. Burgess
T. Kelly
S. Sulak DE/ OLB(stolen)/ he was released after being drafted and before training camp- he never played a down for the Raiders.
L. Jordan RB
B. Davis Jr. DE
Chimde Chekwa CB
Aussie!, both teams got good deals. you have some good points. but during the slump for some reason the Patriots got over big time against one of the best GMs' in all of pro sports!
but you were right on some points- both teams made good deals and sometimes won with the player. did you know two Raiders' SB QBs were drafted by the Patriots? Did you know one of the Pats' best RBs' was a Raider first?
the Raiders got Patriots over 31 year period '80-'11 but the Patriot got a lot over a 21 year period '90-'11.
No, Reggie and Gruden/ Mayock did the same things they made bad deals with the Patriots and saw the Pats win. Now, I'm suspicious but I don't see how you can just say it was bad decisions and not maybe the NFL pressuring or making it hard for the Raiders to get good deals with other teams especially the Patriots knowing the owners were very upset with Al and the NFL wanted the Patriots to keep succeeding?
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