Colts Gameday Thread
If everything were to break perfectly, the Raiders could still win the division. It's a massive longshot, but it says something (just imagine if we'd scored 3+ points against the Viking).
But first things first. Beat the Colts, then worry about the "coulds" and "what ifs." A lot to ponder from this season, but for the moment, GO RAIDERS!
posted by Raider Take at 10:24 AM
42 Comments:
That's a shame. Raiders played hard but the Colts did more to win. Jack Jones offsides was a backbreaker. Gardner Minshew was perhaps the most accurate QB the Raiders have faced this year, hitting several big throws.
There was a clock management issue at the end of the half, which the Raiders waited until 11 seconds remaining to take their first of three timeouts. That was ridiculous. They had the Colts pinned back.
Some questionable plays too. How many times can they go to the well with the Bandon Bolden wildcat? That played looked doomed from the start. And the trick play to lateral back to O'Connell, that was ugly.
It's a letdown but doesn't change the big picture.
Pierce is the man.
The offense was lame. The defense was OK. At 4-4 I'm not ready to annoint Peirce. He has not improved offense. Let's see if he can finish above .500. Happy new year. Sandy
Anonymous said...
To Raider Take,
Al Anon-
J. Jones?: may/ may not be a good CB but the Raiders should trade him while they can get something for him! he was a free agent and has played some great football the past couple of games but we don't know if he's a hidden gold ticket or fool's gold! so, we need to take a look at him over the off season. we still need to find starting DBs' in free agency or draft! we might think about trading him if some teams are interested.
J. Meyers: has played well but I think we keep D. Adams and H. Renfrow, some teams might want Meyers and would could get a draft pick for him.
T. Moehrig: has made plays but just isn't playing like a star safety. the Raiders might be able to get a draft pick for him.
keep: K. Miller, D. Adams, J. Tillery, Butler, Elumenor(is that his name?), M. Koonce, H. Renfrow, R. Spillane.
let go: Hopper, Jacobs, Jenkins.
trade: Jimmy G., T. Moehrig, J. Meyers, Thayer, J. Jones.
sign: TP2(wr/ qb), K. Alonzo, "Matty Ice".
trade for: N. Chubb.
interview for HC job: coach Pierce, D. Quinn, J. Harbaugh, D. Shaw, W. Phillips, K. Kubiak(?).
Sandy, "Pierce has not improved the offense?" Think about what you're saying. The only two playcallers on the team got fired. AP was relegated to having the QB coach call plays. He also went to a rookie QB so the Raiders could adequately evaluate the kid for this off-season.
That's like hobbling the guy then telling him to go run a race.
The defense has been notably better with AP as HC.
Under Sean Payton the Broncos have been no better. Payton is by any measure a top-flight HC in the league.
It takes more than 8 games with someone else's players to build a winning team in the NFL.
I understand if you prefer Harbaugh, but suggesting AP doesn't deserve it because he didn't improve the offense is a bit unfair.
Al Anon.
You and I disagree on virtually everything. Your post above further proves that to be true.
Get rid of Jack Jones? He's a 2nd year player with two pick-sixes in his last 3 games. Keeping him is a top priority for me.
Keep Jerry Tillery who is a 5-year player and still hasn't done anything? No thank you! He's first to go.
Get rid of Jenkins? He's the best run-stopper DT the Raiders have, and it's not even close. He's earned being starter. He's quick for his size and he regularly sheds blocks to make tackles at the LOS... he can also get into the backfield.
Trade Meyers? Jakobi Meyers was perhaps the best free agent the Raiders signed. Between Adams and Meyers, it makes more sense to keep Meyers. Meyers is young and extremely talented. He can be WR1.
Thayer Munford Jr. was a 7th rounder. He costs the Raiders nothing and has played way beyond his draft status. He plays both LT and RT. He's there best swing tackle.
Are we watching the same team?
Sign TP2? Are you for real? He doesn't even play football anymore.
Please!
New York I'm not suggesting the greatest show on turf the scoring 0 points against Minnesota 7 against Miami six against Kansas City and then today's showing its the data I'm going by. Sandy
We got high character! we got discipline we got hard working guys but we don't have speed and athleticism!!
You can make your predictions and put down my p
T. Mumford did o.k. in the last couple games yet hasn't been name a true starter at either T position.
J. Jones is a 2nd year player and has made some big plays but he isn't the cover CB we need! he hasn't proven he can cover the top WRs' well so if somebody wants him the Raiders might want to think about a trade!
Jenkins, if that's true, if he was one of our best DTs' and our best run stopper I'm sorry for being unfair about him but we just haven't had the best inside game on our d-lines so its' hard to tell who is playing good at DT/ NG.
yes! trade J. Meyers! we got him in FA and its' rare that teams will trade for somebody they could've signed but this guy has talent. he needs a top QB and if we can't find one he probably can't help us. if somebody wants him we could get something for him.
I know we won some games but this coach Pierce/ talented roster talk makes me think we just don't understand what mediocrity and doing the same thing means and can't see when the NFL/ owners are conning us with the new era talk.
The Raiders lost a winnable game. I put the blame for that on Antonio Pierce. The team was undisciplined with multiple penalties the play calling on offense was bizarre throwing multiple passes on 3rd and ones and then failing to go for it on 4th Down when they were on the other side of the 50. This rah rah inspirational stuff will only get you so far Sandy
First off, Happy New Year! I wish everyone a happy and healthy 2024 filled with Raiders wins.
As for judging Pierce on one game, or even eight games, Gruden was 1-7 in his first 8 games, and 4-12 on the season which he had a QB and assembled his own players. I can also point the same stretch and circumstances this year for Sean Payton.
I can also point you to a Raiders game at the Meadowlands in the middle of Gruden's second term which he was completely unprepared and had no answers for a Jets team that only won a couple games all season. I attended that game!
Jets won 34-3 and believe me that score was closer than the game. Gruden's Raiders habitually lost on the east coast.
Clearly, Pierce has already outdone that in KC.
Sandy, am I wrong or did you said the KC game would be a difference-maker for you?
If you prefer Harbaugh, nobody should begrudge you that choice, but there's no need for excuses.
Pierce didn't lose the Colts game. Raiders got beat by a better team, with a far superior QB. Jack Jones penalty at the end was backbreaking, but false starts and other penalties were largely a result of Raiders players getting beat in their one-on-ones. Eluemunor has been a false start machine his entire career. As you well know, the last regime did little to improve the O-line. He needs to be replaced, along with other players, OC and other coaches.
You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Root for Harbaugh, but there's no need to blame Pierce for circumstances mostly out of his control.
Pierce has coached well and will get a HC gig in the NFL. He's a leader!
IMO, Raiders fans wanting Davis to hire Harbaugh have a major uphill climb.
First, and potentially a deal breaker before it starts, Davis will have to write another $100,000,000 check.
Second, sticking with the money theme, does Harbaugh just sign with the Raiders or does he let the half dozen other teams bid for his services?
Third, a team like the Panthers will have their choice of franchise QBs. Stuck in the middle of the draft, the Raiders will get to choose from scraps.
Fourth, the Bisaccia effect. Clearly, Davis and everyone in the building regret the decision to not transition Bisaccia from interim to HC. Nobody has forgotten that. Plus, Pierce has an edge and experience that Bisaccia did not.
Fifth, the lists of current and past players and coaches who are lobbying hard for Pierce to retain the job is long, starting with the Raiders #1 franchise player, Maxx Crosby! There could actually be a revolt.
My own take is that Harbaugh or any other HC will need to blow it up, because there's no way Harbaugh is signing off on McDaniels team. Don't be fooled into thinking he will keep players. Harbaugh has a bigger chip on his shoulder than Gruden or McDaniels, and they both torched their previous rosters. Gruden dismantled a team one year removed from 12-4 record and a playoff berth. McDaniels deconstructed the roster after he told Davis he wouldn't.
Pierce brought a semblance of team back to a completely fractured roster. Davis has to see that and will act on it as well as the issues above.
Only Mark Davis knows what he's thinking. We are just observers.
l Anon-
Raiders' legends vs. Colts' pro bowlers!:
R. Gannon
M. Allen
M. Hubbard
T. Christinsen- D. Waller #2
C. Branch F. Biletnikoff #3
R. Moss M. Crabtree #4
A. Shell
M. Montoya
D. Dalby
S. Wisnewski
R. Mix
C-Bass
C. Montgomery(PR)
G. Marchetti
T. Siragusa (A. Donovan, 4-3 DT)
D. Freeny
T. Hendricks(3-4 OLB)
M. Curtis
J. Herrod
R. Mathis
E. Daniel B. Boyd(nickle)
V. Davis M. Jackson(dime)
B. Sanders
R. Volk
P. McAfee (P)
J. Washington(KR)
P. Manning
M. Faulk
A. Ameche
D. Mackey D. Clark #2
R. Berry R. Wayne #3
M. Harrison B. Stokley #4
J. Parker
C. Hinton
J. Saturday
R. Diem
A. Castonso
A. Venitari
C. Verdin(PR)
H. Long
J. Matuzak
R. Kinlaw(3-4 NG)
B. Davidson
J. Robinson G. Bikert(3-4 ILB)
D. Connors
O. Wilson
R. Woodson S. McGlougan(nickle)
Nnamdi S. Thomas(dime)
V. McElroy
G. Atkinson
I. Matthews(KR)
Happy New Year everyone! Been incognito mostly the last few weeks, and I apologize for that, but spending time with family is important. Hope and pray you all had wonderful holidays. We all know Christmas was terrific in every way. The Colts game, not so much.
The last few games has shown that AOC is not the QB of the future, and it was a horribly called offensive game. Davante's public frustration with the offense seems to grow each week. It seems they are trying to make the best of a bad situation. I am concerned about Josh Jacobs not playing. Has he shut himself down for the season? Will Davante do the same this next week? Jimmy G is not the option, AOC is not the option, we all know Hoyer should have never been an option. Mcdummy did his part on destroying the team; and Pierce is doing everything in his power to bring it back. It is night and day difference with how Pierce has made this team; and not only that, he is not an "employed coach"; he is a RAIDER! He understands the Raider way, he is working hard to bring in that ol' Raiders' grit and swagger. How? He's doing what we all dream of doing as lifelong Raiders' fans; he's coaching them back to greatness. That's why he deserves the HC job, with his own OC, and pick for a quality QB.
Our playoff hopes were dashed this last week; but we can do the same to the Doncos this Sunday. I know we are going to come out big. But I'm concerned about our offense, our defense is there and playing on all cylinders, but our offense is not. It always seems to be one or the other, never both. Put the loss behind us, lets end the season on a high note. Make the world a better place, punch the Doncos in the face, JUST WIN, BABY!
Rumors are floating around that Dave Ziegler wanted to trade up to draft CJ Stroud, but McDaniels was against it. Also, the Raiders were one of two teams to inquire about Lamar Jackson's services.
Now rumors are surfacing that Tom Brady almost decided to play in 2023.
Any one of these events could have changed the Raiders dramatically.
CJ Stroud was a bs rumor from hondo carpenter biggest v shill in the business. I banged the drum for Lamar here, two 1s would have been a steal. You know Al would have done that deal in a second. Sandy
Ravens didn't trade him, so he was never really available. They gave him a $260M contract with $185M guaranteed. It looks like it might pay off.
NY, Jackson was given the non-exclusive franchise tag, anyone could have signed him to an offer sheet if the Ravens did not match the compensation was 2 1st round picks. So he was available.
After watching the Colts game Pierce's shortcomings are obvious he is a rah rah leader who knows how to motivate his players. That is not enough to be a succesful coach and it wears thin after awhile. Below is a summary of all the mistakes he made in the Colts game on offesne. These were his calls not Hardegrees. This is where a coach needs to be better. WE can not hire a coach who is going to learn on the job and wast Crosby's and other prime talent best years.
They had the ball on the Colts’ 38-yard line in the first quarter and on fourth-and-1, they tried to draw the Colts offsides, took a delay of game, and punted for a net of 36 yards. In the second quarter, they had a fourth-and-1 on the Colts’ 43-yard line and once again, took a delay of game and punted for a net of 38 yards. With 54 seconds left before the half, they had the Colts pinned on their 7-yard line. They had all three timeouts but let the Colts run the clock out instead of trying to get the ball back.
In the third quarter, with the ball on the Colts’ 45-yard line, on fouth-and-2, they took another delay of game but got bailed out by a roughing the punter penalty and scored a touchdown on that drive. In the end, the Raiders lost by three points. Interim coach Antonio Pierce has brought energy and new life to the Raiders in his short time as the interim coach but he’s kept Josh McDaniels’ spirit of conservatism alive and done zero to imporve the offense.
Mark please say no to Pierce.
Sandy
Sandy,
I think AP is more than a rah-rah coach, but there is something to be said about his inexperience. I compare him to Campbell of the Lions right now. Dude has them playing lights out, then he tried to get cute on the 2 point and cost his team. Was even given 3 chances. I would have tied it after the first penalty and gone into overtime, to be honest.
Those are some of the things we can expect under AP until he learns. But the way he has the team playing on defense, I think give him a quality OC like Bienemy and a QB like Penix or Caleb Williams (I think both will drop in the draft), and let's see how they cook. There are teams excelling under rah-rah coaches, but what makes them work is surrounding them with people who can game-plan. AP has that with PG, but not on offense. Let's see what he can do with the right people. The main thing with AP, is the team seems to be playing better. Even though the results are not there from the QB play, the O-line has played much better under Pierce and Carmon Bricillo and Cameron Clemmons opened up the blocking scheme under him. You can see it in the locker room.
With all the offensive woes, keep in mind AP is NOT calling offensive plays, that is Bo Hardegree, who is a McDumdum guy. He has told him to game plan with the team, but he hasn't. The offensive conservatism falls on him and him alone. I think he, Scott Turner, and Matt Lombardi are all McDumdum guys who need to go that currently are coaches on offense. The rest of the coaching staff on offense has done what AP has asked, but Bo doesn't want to be there. Raiders are clicking at every position except QB, and even when he is on, I'm not that impressed with AOC.
On that note, Sandy, I wouldn't have minded Lamar Jackson. At the time, he was injured, and this is only the 2nd season he has completely played in his career. Those things are a factor too. There was rumors that he was unhappy in Baltimore; but they went and beefed up their O-line, grabbed some great WRs, and got a new coordinator. I think Lamar was unhappy with Greg Roman, and had Roman not retired, I don't think Lamar would be in Baltimore right now. BTW, the biggest additions to their O-Line: Tyler Linderbaum (C) and John Simpson former Raider LG who signed with them after last season. I would have liked LJ with the Raiders, I was hoping we would have drafted him back in the day; had every opportunity to. I think Al would have drafted him based on his arm. I would have given a first, and maybe a second rounder for him at the time, but not 2 firsts unless Baltimore was not going to budge. :) JUST WIN, BABY!
In hindsight, the Jackson thing is notable. He's impressive to watch. Two #1's might have been doable, but $260M ($185M fully guaranteed!) for any player is a lot for any owner to stomach, I'm sure. Again, I'm not discounting it entirely, in hindsight.
I disagree with the Colts game assessment. AP made mistakes but not ones suggested above, IMO.
AP was clearly playing a game of field position, which is understandable given the Raiders strength lately has been its defense. Where the author makes a mistake is not pointing out a Carlson a FG try might have been doable in 1-2 of those instances.
Also, did the author missed mention of the 3rd and 1 trick play? AP did not call the trick play but he allowed it to happen. Raiders could have used two downs more conventionally to gain one yard for a first down.
Pierce is definitely learning on the fly, but I take exception to blaming him for weaknesses that McDaniels left behind as well as being strapped with using McDaniels QB coach to call the offensive plays. That's too far a reach for me. Clearly, his specialty is defense, where he has made impressive showing since taking over as interim HC.
In the end, I continue to only be an observer. While my gut says AP, I know Harbaugh has an impressive resume. Also, what happens if Harbaugh is hired by the Chargers? Yikes!
However, even with that thought, I'm okay with Davis hiring Pierce and Kelly, providing they have a plan to jumpstart the offense. I'm not worried about the defense, which I something I would not have guessed I'd ever say again about the Raiders... and it's because of Pierce that I can say that with confidence.
On to the draft, my opinion is that the only QB's that are top 5 worthy are: Drake Maye, Caleb Williams, and Jayden Daniels. There are a lot of variables at play in the Top 3 picks as well. Currently, the Top 3 picks are the Bears, Commanders, and Patriots. The Raiders currently sit at #11, and if we beat the Doncos, we will drop to #14, which I hope we do beat the Doncos.
This all brings us to the Top 3 picks, and the unknowns going into the offseason.
The Bears may be moving on from Justin Fields, who in reality is not the problem; the Bears are the problem. They may be moving on from the OC and or HC, AGAIN! If they don't, and rid themselves of Justin Fields, I don't think they go with a mobile QB like Caleb Williams or Jayden Daniels. If they go with a QB, I think they go after Drake Maye.
The second pick belongs to the Commanders. They are a wildcard depending on who they have as HC next year. I think they are moving on from Ron Rivera, they may hire Eric Bienemy, or someone else. If they hire Bienemy, they draft either Jayden Daniels or Caleb Williams. I think they draft Daniels because he is a more accurate passer than Williams. I'm not really sure what this pick is going to do, I want to see what happens in the offseason and with the new ownership. Hell, they are even thinking of going back to the Redskins' name and mascot!
The 3rd pick in the draft is the Patriots, and this is also a wildcard spot. Heavy rumors are that Belichick is done as HC and will be fired. I don't think they move on from Belichik as much as I think they move on from O'Brien. If the Patriots keep Belichik, this is the spot the Raiders can trade up for; but this is also the spot that Sean Payton is already looking to trade up for as well, so we may be in a battle with the Doncos here. This is the position to watch if they keep BB. If they do fire Belichick, then this HC position will be the luster of the League.
If the Raiders move up to #3 with a trade with the Pats, then they get Caleb Williams. If not, then we still have a lot of viable options at #11 or 14. Michael Penix, JJ McCarthy, Bo Nix (who I think is underrated coming into the draft). Outside of these names, there is not much after that in the QB department.
On to another need, DT. A lot will be said about late first round talents at this position in Kris Jenkins (Michigan) and Michael Hall Jr (Ohio St). But I think we can grab a DT better than these two in the 2nd Round, and that is Johnny Newton (Illinois). After their Bowl game this season he has 52 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 8.5 TFL, 2 Pass Defenses, 1 Forced Fumble, 1 Fumble Recovery, and 4 blocked kicks. He may even drop to the 3rd round; but this is one of my steals of the draft for the Raiders.
Another is at CB, who is a 1 round talent, but may drop to the 2nd or 3rd round, and that is Johnny Dixon (Penn St). CB is probably the weakest area in the draft this year, not a lot of guys stand out here to be a shut down #1 CB. But Johnny Dixon will bring energy like Jack Jones, he just has that vibe, heavy hitter, quick reads, gritty with great instincts.
This is my early draft analysis as we end the season, but seriously, watch what the Commanders and Patriots do when the season ends.
I would add, I am strongly against bringing back Jon Gruden (which the media suggest is an option). For me, the difference between Harbaugh and Gruden is light years.
Gruden's time in Tampa did not end well, then he was away from coaching for 10 years. His return to LV saw him dismantle the team unnecessarily and slow-walk a rebuild that never really got off the ground, despite being almost 4 years in.
Harbaugh brings immediate credibility. For me, one of his best strengths out of the gate will be his knowledge and scouting of college talent.
One thing we should not be fooled, Mark Davis apparently has the resources to do whatever he wants... meaning Pierce is far from a sure bet.
Will Spanos out-bid Davis for Harbaugh's services? That's possible, and it would mean playing against him 2x a year.
Nate, my early understanding of the draft is that the Raiders are too far back to have a shot at any top QB. This is where Harbaugh has immediate value.
IMO, who plays QB next year and after might be a bigger challenge than finding the next head coach.
NY, every year the Mediots have the top QB's going off the board before pick 10. When has that every happened? It hasn't. QB is not the only option in the first round, but the top 3 QBs (Drake Maye, Caleb Williams, and Jayden Daniels) may go 1,2,3 this year. Outside of that, I don't see another QB going in the top 10.
In fact, look at the draft history for QB's in the first round where you had 4 or more taken. 2021 you had: Trevor Lawrence (1), Zach Wilson (2), Trey Lance (3), Justin Fields (11), and Mac Jones (15).
2020 you had: Joe Burrow (1), Tua T (5), Herbert (6), and Love (26).
2018: Baker Mayfield (1), Sam Darnold (3), Josh Allen (7), Josh Rosen (10), and Lamar Jackson (32).
2012: Andrew Luck (1), Robert Griffin (2), Ryan Tannehill (8), and Brandon Weeden (22).
2004: Eli Manning (1), Phillip Rivers (4), Ben Roethlisberger (11), and JP Losman (22).
2003: Carson Palmer (1), Byron Leftwich (7), Kyle Boller (19), and Rex Grossman (22).
1999: Tim Couch (1), McNabb (2), Akili Smith (3), Culpepper (11), and Cade McNown (12).
1987: Testaverde (1), Stouffer (6), Miller (13), and Jim Harbaugh (26).
The highest QB heavy 1st Round Draft is 1983: Elway (1), Todd Blackledge (7), Jim Kelly (14), Tony Eason (15), Ken O'Brien (24), and Dan Marino (27). Interesting about this draft, not another QB was taken until the 5th Round.
Then you have to go all the way back to 1959 before you find another draft that took 4 or more QB's in the first round.
With that said, I think this draft may be like 2021 where you have the top 3 teams pick QBs, but then the rest slip down. It is very likely too that Scouts will view Penix (injury history), JJ McCarthy, and Bo Nix as 2nd Round talent. The reason I think Nix is underrated is because he played for a very horrible Oregon squad. He put up good numbers, and has the highest passing % of all the QB's entering the draft with almost 78%, and over 4000 yards. Even then, you could see Caleb Williams slip. The knock on him is passing %, and he didn't do very well in big games. At first, people were putting the blame on Lincoln Riley, then a true freshmen came out in the bowl game and almost put up 400 yards in a win. Scouts are questioning Williams' heart and passion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Nate, top three QBs were drafted in the top-5 picks last year. And 2024 has a more sought after QB class.
Again, with the Raiders picking 11-14, this is where Harbaugh could earn his pay. He may want to stick with McCarthy. I don't know enough about it to really say. I'm not in draft mode just yet.
This is a very unusual situation Davis is in. Raiders have legit options with Harbaugh and IMO Pierce. I could get excited about either.
Where I get worried, and potentially get soured, is the next tier of choices between Gruden, Quinn, Shaw and others. These guys have decent resumes but I see them as more of the same, in other words, another 3-5 years to mediocrity.
No thanks!
To Raider Take and NY Raider,
Happy New Year Raidernation!
Well a lot of teams are trying to get a QB and most fans believe you start by getting a 'franchise QB'.
what about our team!? do we really need a regime media hypes for making normal/ usual draft/ FA picks or another rebuild or another rookie starting QB? why can't we get a regime that will stop being good citizens and making the need/ safe draft picks and make bolder, more different moves?
A QB will come but why do we just have to take time finding one. I think we should sign a veteran FA and draft one in 2-3rd rounds.
A 'franchise QB' IMO...is a rookie-27 yrs old, either drafted or a young FA/ UDFA. might be back up, probably from another team.
Is finding a franchise QB the best way? These teams mostly got their guys in the draft. Some found QBs' through free agency. They are the best at finding franchise QBs'.
Steelers/ Bradshaw, 'Big Ben', O' Donnell.
Patriots/ Brady, Grogan, Bledsoe, Kemp, Jimmy G.,
49ers/ Montana, Young, Brodie, Purdy, Tittle.
Chargers/ Fouts, Brees, Rivers, Kemp.
Packers/ B. Favre, B. Starr and A. Rodgers.
Cowboys/ Morton, Stabauch, White, Aikman and Prescott.
Giants/ Simms, Manning, Tarkington, Tittle?
Colts/ Jones, Manning, Luck, Unitas.
A veteran QB IMO... is 28-39, Can be a journeyman, ex-star, ex-starter or back up on team or signed as a free agent or traded for.
some teams 'kick ass' with veteran QBs', they take a chance on other team's QBs and they find the key to becoming a winning/ elite team!:
Broncos/ they may've signed NYGs' C. Morton and Colts' P. Manning and traded for J. Elway, J. Plummer and R. Wilson and they've won a lot with them.
Raiders/ J. Plunkett, R. Gannon and traded for D. Lamonica and C. Palmer. They did draft 'franchise QB' and HOFer K. Stabler.
K.C./ Len Dawson was a Steeler 1st and he was K.C.'s veteran QB for years. they also had S. Bono, E. Grbac and A. Smith. I guess J. Montana was still a franchise QB. Wow! they love 49ers' QBs.
Washington/ J. Thiesman, D. Williams, B. Kilmer, T. Greene, B. Johnson(Bucs) and M. Brunell. They didn't care about age, who you played for or that much about franchise QBs'; they just wanted a winning QB. They preferred experienced, game tested, almost journeyman or game manager type QBs' They did have one winning franchise QB(M. Rypian).
teams that didn't hit the jackpot trying find a game-changing franchise QB:
Cleveland: B. Weeden, B. Quinn, J. Manzel, T. Couch, J. Garcia. B. Mayfield did good for awhile. they finally got their guy(B. Koszar).
Detroit: C. Long, J. Harrington, A. Ware.
they had outstanding average-good QBs'(E. Kramer, C. Batch, R. Peete.
I know the best way or most successful teams have found that 'franchise QB' and I made this post to let you know there are other ways to find a good QB.
Here's every Raiders fan viewing schedule for the upcoming week.
Sunday 4:25 EST Raiders play Broncos
Monday 7:30 EST Michigan plays for National Championship.
While the Raiders game means very little, it's pretty cool that two HCs will be showcased for Mark Davis and of us to see, back-to-back. It's a bit unfair that Harbaugh has a well-oiled machine while Pierce has a broken-down offense that he inherited. But cool to see how it plays out.
Before you scoff at that, I wouldn't assume either NFL HC will take their game lightly after their team's respective seasons. Payton can end his season with a winning record, and Pierce can help secure a job by winning his third divisional game in a row. Note too, Jarret Stidham is the Broncos QB, so there's perhaps a bit of a revenge factor.
My guess is if Pierce loses his game and Harbaugh wins his, the urgency to sign Harbaugh will grow exponentially... like skyrocket! And so will the price tag!
NY, I think another thing to consider with Harbaugh is what happens in New England. If Bob Kraft fires Belichik, I think New England becomes the #1 spot in the NFL and for Harbaugh. Regardless of the "rumors" with the media, if Kraft rids himself of Belichik, I think all his disciples will be shown the door too. The only way I see Belichik keeping his job is if he is willing to get a GM; which is highly unlikely.
The question isn't if AP and Champ Kelly have earned their spot, because they have; but whether or not they can make the Raiders a Champion? I believe they can, but I believe they need to come up with a plan for Offensive Coordinator and a long-term plan for QB and how are they going to achieve being champions; then present it to Mark Davis. I do not believe Bo Hardagree is up for this job, nor do I believe AOC is the long-term solution at QB. Experience or not, Pierce has shown he is capable of leading men; and the players want him. To be honest, I don't think we can afford another "rebuild" or coach who wants to come in and blow everything up.
Starting over is a concern for me too. I feel like we've been there, done that.
First off, I believe any team, including the Pats, would be out of their mind to hire Bill Belichick. He's jumped the shark! It's all failed miserably for Belichick over the last 2-3 years. I can't imagine anyone wants to buy into that. I hope the Pats keep him.
IMO, Bo Hardegree hurt his chance to be a future OC with that ridiculous trick play call last week on 3rd and short. Even AP said that's NOT who he believes the Raiders are, in terms of play-calling. If MD hires Pierce, it's probably with the condition that he finds a real OC.
Personally, I hate the idea of starting over, which is what I'd expect from Harbaugh or any other outside hire for HC. Pierce and Kelly represent an opportunity to carry forward with a core of players that have already demonstrated their ability and desire to do so.
That said, I'm not going to cry foul if Harbaugh is hired. His resume speaks for itself. Also, Harbaugh brings a special connection to the college draft. I doubt anyone has scouted players more (or better) than he has the last couple years. If he wants (and gets) McCarthy as Raiders QB, that could be something special.
I don't watch much college FB, so I'm looking forward to watching the championship game on Monday to see what Harbaugh's offense looks like.
This thing really heats up starting Tuesday!
2024
Raiders start with $50M in salary cap this off-season, with potential to save more, perhaps a lot more.
If I had one wish in free agency it would be Chris Jones at DT. Whatever it takes! I'd also keep the rotation with Bulter and Jenkins. Everyone else in the interior is expendable.
Edge has Crosby, Koonce and Wilson. Decent, right? I wouldn't spend money unnecessarily here, just bolster it as available. Wilson should continue to get reps in the interior, so adding bodies at edge will be important.
Need a LB. I like Patrick Queen. He might be middle of the pack as a FA but I like his aggressive style. He'd make a good Raider. Spillane is the man in the middle.
I don't think the Raiders should pursue any high-priced secondary, but they do need to add bodies and upgrade as much as possible. I would absolutely re-sign Jack Jones. He's a student of the game and a ball hawk. And he's young.
I wish the Raiders had signed Jacobs to a long-term deal but I don't see them paying big money to retain him, certainly not franchise tag money. Jacobs will need to take a pay cut or he's probably gone. Anyone who thinks this is where the Raiders should spend money hasn't been watching the RB market. Draft! Paying a FA RB is a waste of resources.
QB is huge. Harbaugh might draft McCarthy! AP/Kelly might as well. He's scouted as accurate and mobile. Keep O'Connell and bring in a mid-level vet, like Minshew. Other guys are better but won't be available, or way too pricey. I'd avoid over-spending in the upcoming FA QB class. Kirk Cousins is inconsistent and way overpriced.
O-line needs work. Finally! Andre James is a FA, so the Raiders need to make a decision on him. RT and G are concerns. Munford is definitely improved and could perhaps be RT. At minimum, he is a solid swing T off the bench.
If Pierce is hired HC, these are the tweaks I'd expect.
If Harbaugh is hired, nobody is safe. Dare I say, even Crosby, though that would be extreme... like Mack!
Las Vegas and the NFL is ready to spend a lot of money to get businesses to relocate to L.V.!
Man! this is going to be the biggest money scheme in the history of pro sports!
The city of Oakland didn't know it was dealing with the NFL and gambling business the league didn't want or care about Las Vegas it saw huge money there!
They wouldn't want the Raiders there if it was a more legit looking project; they'd want other teams(Chargers, Jaguars) in L.V. but since most teams could pressure their cities to build new stadiums and since nobody wanted to take a risk moving to a small market. And the NFL, not sure about L.V., probably wasn't going to go there. But there was a chance! they needed something that could fail and suffer losing money, something they didn't mind being stuck in/ lose fans and money in, a small market, in the place where the world goes to gamble-, gambling corporations/ businesses are almost everywhere and the industry lives.
It's o.k. to have this, teams making big money and getting richer. And its' cool to want to feel 'big time'/ proud about our team's wealth and their fan entertainment events- to be able to party, meet players and now, go to places in L.V. is awesome!
But the Raiders ran their own ship and didn't just focus on money, these are billionaires running the league now! it's not o.k. to pressure owners to focus on money and screw their fans and cities for money and power!
What about things like loyalty and class? its' good to make money but to ignore football is sad. Al wouldn't let money stop him from trying to win! We think we're in a terrible spot the last 21 years but think, some fans, even of elite teams, have owners who aren't that concerned about what they think. They have media/ professional marketers who hype the product and tell fans they're getting the best in pro sports and they give them things like contests, games and raffles around/ inside the stadiums.
What about winning, what about the game? what about culture? all we hear is how valuable teams are! Al would never put money before winning!
we might be playing in an ugly stadium but we would have a team that wanted to give us great football! we had a mom&pop team and I miss it! having all the entertainment and things in NFL cities/ stadiums is great but a team putting winning first is great too.
We can have our entertainment and try to win but first, we need some connection to Raidernation, discounts on tickets, a culture and loyalty and we need to work on winning then we can focus on money schemes after trying to win.
Another plea to lower ticket prices and a continuation of revisionist history which you believe Al Davis was happy playing in a shitty stadium (pun intended).
Yet money is why he moved the team twice and faced litigation. He went to LA because it's the second largest market in the country $$$
You don't know Al Davis as well as you think you do.
If his sole intent was to win, he would never have benched a Super Bowl MVP, nor traded an upstart head coach in the peak of his career.
His actions were often very personal and sometimes detrimental to the Raiders. He sold a minority stake, so his actions were sometimes problematic to those interests too.
It wasn't as rosy as you believe it was. Why do you insist on ignoring provable facts?
RT, was Amazon link removed from your page? I was using that link to get to Amazon, but it's gone now...
NY Raider!! dude please!....you want to ignore and trash Al's history? fine! but you don't need to try and make may
Maybe again I didn't say things in a way you guys can understand!
We all know Al Davis was about making his money! We all know he moved to L.A. for a bigger stadium and money! We know he sold a minority stake to some wall street guys for some reason!
BUT DUDES!!! Al NEVER let MONEY, POWER or NFL money schemes stop his obsession with winning and his relationship. with Raidernation!
and he NEVER stopped trying to do what was Right sometimes right to him mostly good for the NFL players!
You can talk Patriots, Steelers and 49ers model franchise talk if you want but few owners tried to stand up.
See, you really 'put your mouth into this one' NY. I don't know Al!? I'm going to tell you some of the things about how he was!- this senile, jealous, hateful and incompetent
owner was:
1. Al could make his own business deals and still manage an NFL team.
2. he could help the NFLPA even though his team was in a slump.
3. he was helping the NFL players and NFLPA boss G. Upshaw and the players supported him.
4. in L.A., Al ran all over the NFL so much(moving and law suits) that they showed they can be powerful and nasty when they blocked a trade for J. Elway. you say the Colts took the best deal? dude!...Al offered high draft picks, J. Plunkett and other star players and Baltimore took that over Al's offer?
5. Al helped get the t.v. deals for the NFL and I don't think I EVER heard anybody talk about it much(but Browns' owner A. Model was allegedly the guy who was the main one getting those deals).
6. the NFL wanted revenue sharing in everything even a team's personal deal with a company. Al tried to get the owners to protest or vote against them but then they made it a rule. this was in the late '00s and the Raiders were in a slump.
7. he tried to get L.A. to renovate the coliseum and it caused issues so they threatened each other(suits/ to move). when other cities offered a stadium or talk with him he was so he was able to pressure L.A. to negotiate the lease and probably doing some changes to the coliseum- but he was STILL able to run the team.
8. he sued the Buccaneers, city of L.A. and Oakland and won the Oakland lawsuit but he didn't put that before winning. although the team was in a slump('03-'11) when this was happening, he didn't start focusing on money first instead of football.
Dude!...Al NEVER let money stop him from focusing on football! you can look at 2 ways other teams are so great they could focus on both or Al was so good he could win first and then focus on making money later or at least until '03 he could!
NY! I know you think you were just bringing out some unpleasant facts about him or trying to show he wasn't that great but dude you made your point look weaker/ questionable. you had a point it's just not as strong/ looking good as it was- Al was a top business man and he loved football he put football first and then focused on making money or trying to bring in more later. He did it either when he had time to work with his legal people during the season or in the off season. Sure, these wall street owners know more about business than he did but he could run circles around the old owners and them, he was a top businessman and he was good talker, had tricks and a good team of advisers and he could excite, hype and talk up the old owners and one day he may've excited, surprised the new, billionaire owners too.
You contradict yourself. First "Al never put money ahead of football" then "Al was about making money...."
Your posts read like a Hallmark movie for Al Davis. You often conflate eras, so I can't tell if you think Kenny Stabler played with Tim Brown, or if you think Sid Gillman changed his name to Mike White and coached the Raiders. And your definition of a slump is a generation of football.
I guess the moral of your story seems to be, "don't believe my lying eyes."
I could learn a lot if you just answer the simple question I posed earlier in this thread.
In what decade was Al last on top of his game? When was he leading a winning football charge? For sake of discussion, let's agree he excelled in the 60s and 70s. But when was he last at a level of excellence?
1980s?
1990s?
2000s?
Hindsight is a powerful tool, so this should be a slam dunk.
1980s Raiders were excellent for most of the decade. Early 90s they were also very good as well as early 2000s. Even after Al lost his fastball there were dominant stretches by the Raiders in every decade. Sandy
I'm gonna disagree with you, Sandy.
Here's why the two so-called isolated instances of Davis's ego and poor judgement are so important.
It was the early 90s that Davis benched Marcus Allen. Allen had only two starts in his final two years with the Raiders, after which he scored 12 TDs and was voted to the pro bowl for the Chiefs, beginning four straight seasons with over 1,000 yards from scrimmage.
Meanwhile, the Raiders were up and down with Art Shell as HC. Shell eventually hit a wall and Davis fired him in favor of Mike White. Under White, it only got worse, then worse again under Bugel.
Davis miraculously brought us Jon Gruden in the late 90s and Gruden peaked by the early 2000s. Then just when it heated up, Gruden was traded.
Benching Allen and trading Gruden are two of the most impactful events in Raiders history. Add drafting JaMarcus Russell and you have a 3-decade trifecta.
Hindsight being 20-20, the records bear this out. And when you look back, the list of head coaches during this period is absolutely cringeworthy. Al traded his best HC and left us with the "dumbest coach in America."
The overhead projector! The fan-initiated billboard for Al to step down! It was a long dark period for the Raiders during which an 8-8 season record was a blessing.
Thankfully, I watched them in the 70s and early 80s, so I saw their best.
I'd rather have Al in a crappy stadium than billionaires that don't care who you are or how much you spend!
Al didn't ask the O.co people to keep up a crappy stadium and not try to build a new one.
They just like L.A. DIDN'T build him a new one! L.A. couldn't because of USC and the history of the coliseum and Oakland didn't because of the A's, political pressure to not use public money and legal rights that gave them time to stall out until it was too late and by then the NFL had decided they wanted a team in L.V. and it was them that also helped ruin any chance of a new stadium in Oakland.
The city of Oakland renovated, they didn't build, a new stadium! that's one of the reasons Al sued them and L.A. to have legal right to move back there if things didn't work out in Oakland! it wasn't his fault Oakland and L.A. didn't build him a stadium.
S_ _ _ _ y stadium?: the A's won World Series there, the Raiders won there! the weather was , some of the best games in pro sports history happened there. we had public transportation and parking. it was a dirty, gray and ugly but it was our house!
You go to a new stadium and can now brag about it, its' new awesome and
over priced for tickets
can't tailgate
there's no 'Black Hole'
the desert can be very hot or very cold
the Raiders/ media lied about free agency, they refuse to spend big on elite star FAs'.
Al threatened to leave Oakland and finally did! Yea, he wanted money and saw other ways to make money but he never put it ahead of winning and he tried to give Oakland and L.A. chances to keep the Raiders.
These owners have marketing groups/ firms to find ways to make money. t.v./ cable/ social media, season ticket and parking money is awesome, but they want MORE!! public, food and merchandise sales, investment(stake holders), sponsors/corporate(stadium naming rights), revenue sharing, private business deal sharing money is way outrageous! but they give us mediocre football and over charge for tickets! and want fans to keep spending on the NFL!
Al wanted to make pro football successful and he cared about the future of the NFL/ pro football. The new NFL/ owners are about money and brag about how much they spend and wealth. They have some fun/ entertainment evens near stadiums/ cities that is just crazy to have and NFL fans today brag about how much they spend and what their team built / their wealth. Past eras had better football nothing close to the events today. But these owners shamelessly talk money before football, give fans a mediocre product and may have awesome events but their attitude toward fans stick out even with all the things they build for fans. Some teams show they want fans to make excited/ interested but aren't into relating with them or having a connection.
The Raiders won two super bowls in the '80's.
They went to the playoff three times in the '90's.
The went to the playoffs three times in the '00's.
Al made a mistake trading Gruden but he NEVER let ANY HC stop him from trying to win!
Al Davis was very RELEVANT in the '00's-'10's by working with NFLPA boss G. Upshaw and standing with the players. All of this was happening during the slump. It also brings questions tampering because why would NFL players support Al helping them but not want to play for him?
Al ruined maybe the best RB team in the '80's by feuding with M. Allen.
he traded a top NFL HC in his prime.
he drafted a QB first overall and that can be tough if you are winning
. but it didn't work out. but I don't think Jamarcus would've been a bust for 31 other teams he'd been either a star or a decent QB. I also, don't think C. Johnson would've helped us either, I don't think it'd changed much. the Raiders had maybe an elite roster for most of the nine year slump. I think Al knew football and had talent/ front office so I don't see how the Raiders could lose like that maybe be mediocre but still should had a few more wins.
When the Raiders moved to LA it wasn't because they "liked LA." Where do you come up with this stuff? It was a financial decision.
They were coming off their first losing season in 17 years. They drafted Marcus Allen and Allen quickly became the Raiders entire offense. He also became the face of the Raiders and a hero to every Raiders fan. For that, Davis turned on Allen.
None of the stadium issues you speak of explain why Al could not effectively manage the team back to winning. That's on Al.
Regarding the move back to Oakland, lots of promises made by both parties, Alameda and Davis, and few obligations met. Before Mark moved the team to LV, the Coliseum literally exploded with shit. At least that's what I read. So, yeah, it was a crappy stadium. Raiders had the worst stadium in the NFL, and they were the only NFL team to share its stadium with another sports franchise. You can find nostalgia in that but the whole thing was archaic. That's what Al left behind, along with a losing team.
Again, you conflate eras like they all went together. Al was a huge influence on pro football, but that was long before any of the issues that caused the Raiders to have one of the worst runs in pro sports history.
NY, the 80s, 90, early 2000 was way better than the last 20 years since Al has been gone. Also going to a conference Championship game and multiple playoffs in the early nineties and then the success they had in the first 3 years of the 2000s is good results compared to most NFL teams you tend to gloss over that with your bias. Those successes more than supercede Jamarcus or trading Gruden Etc. You should do some research on why Marcus was benched I think it's an indication of Al's morals rather than ego Sandy
The Bills dominated the AFC for years and only K.C., Pittsburgh, Denver and sometimes Oakland could even compete with them. They started in the late '80's? and then dominated the AFC in the '90's.
The Raiders had been winning for three decades when the '90's started! They had been to a SB in three different decades until the '90's. The 49ers are the only dynasty that could've kept going into the '00's and still win.
They had been winning for a long time and they needed to rebuild/ reload. It was a time when they had to lose for awhile they needed to rebuild/ reload. Other AFC teams got better and took over but few could handle Buffalo. Only S.F. could keep winning into the '00's without rebuilding but they had losing seasons too. It was mainly the NFL trying to prove that PARITY was working; they pressured the last dynasties to slow down so they could show their PARITY was working.
All of those '90's winners except S.F. starting losing or got average.
Its' easy to attack Al for sucking most of the '90's but you forget that Buffalo dominated the whole AFC and it took the AFC a long time before it won a super bowl after L.A. won it in '83! So when you attack him think about the whole AFC being dominated by one team!
So don't go trying to say AL sucked in the '90's and didn't do anything. N.E., K.C., Denver and Pittsburgh are the only AFC teams to deal with the Bills, and Denver is the only one who can say they did better.
NY Raider,
I said Al was wrong for mistreating Marcus. And he was awesome for us.
The stadium was ugly, gray and renovated! it was upgraded not old! And all he wanted was a new one and the city screwed him! he might've even shared it with the A's. the new fad is having a private stadium but the Raiders have to share theirs with UNLV!
There was a sewage problem that could've been handled quickly! both the Raiders and A's suffered through it but both could've spent money to fix it faster!
Other Anon was right! Jamarcus, Gannon or Gruden didn't cause the Raiders to slump! and again, if Jamarcus wasn't that bad! he'd of been o.k. with 31 other teams. Al NEVER let losing a QB stop him from trying to win but yes, you're right losing Gruden hurt it wasn't a good move but the team had talent and should've found ways to win.
The 90's were so bad for Al, he lost it!? the Raiders were winning for a long time and teams need to rebuild/ reload so they were due for some losing years. But the AFC was looking bad! They couldn't win a Super Bowl and only Denver, K.C. and Pittsburgh could compete with Buffalo. the Bills dominated but couldn't beat an NFC team in the Super Bowl and the AFC couldn't knock Buffalo off and win a Super Bowl so the AFC wasn't the great division you make it without the Raiders:
K.C. had Marcus and J. Montana with some more ex-championship 49ers and the NFL just wanted them to win big, but Buffalo kept dominating.
Denver is a class/ outstanding franchise except on the field until they got QB C. Morton who upset the Champion Raiders sent them on their way to a two year slump '78 and '79. Then the NFL sets up a terrible trade to get J. Elway for them. They didn't dominate the AFC West but they went to the Super Bowl a lot until finally winning two in the late '90's. IMO...they seem to have been another creation by the league to beat Al.
Pittsburgh/ an outstanding front office and the team of the 70's. They were a creation of the NFL to beat the Raiders. I mean, they didn't need any help but their success was hyped more by media and made the image for the blue collar fan's team where as Oakland/ Raiders were just Al's team, misfits and outcasts who won a lot in a high crime/ politically charged city.
I thought I said Al was wrong for mistreating Marcus? K.C. started winning with him and J. Montana.
Geez, the bar is incredibly low. First, Al Davis hasn't been gone for 20 years (that would put us in 2031). The first 10+ years of the 2000s was on him. Not only was he in full charge it was his conscience decision to not prepare his son Mark Davis for ultimately taking over the franchise. We all saw how that played out.
Also, it was because of the success in the early 2000s that Al traded Gruden. That was an epic fail that sent the Raiders into a decade-long spiral which JaMarcus Russell was just one small piece. Plenty of failures to point to during that period.
Art Shell had some success in the early 90s. There were two short windows, the early 90s and early 2000s. Davis fired or traded both HCs during those periods.
Please, it's not bias, nor am I reading tea leaves. It's the Raiders record.
Sandy, please tell me why you think Marcus Allen was benched? I'm very interested to hear your account. I assume you mean a salary dispute. Salary can't be the only reason Davis developed a sick vendetta against Allen that would justify Davis burying Allen behind a barrage of RBs mostly past their prime. Davis had a standing order not to play Allen which even the coaches (Shell, Robiskie and others) couldn't understand.
You will be hard pressed to any find media coverage or other account that favors Davis on that one.
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